Bow Hunt Slaughter

[Wildman]

I believe I just answered my own question. The DWR apparently quit keeping track of the bow hunt harvest in Utah about 1976 according to the stats in the 2008 harvest report-

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/08_bg_report.pdf

Over the last few years I have noticed something that I hadn't considered before. Each year, I would spent many summer evening on the mountain observing quite a few young buck deer. Being largely a rifle hunter, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on the mountain during the bow hunt, because the bow hunters kept things stirred up.
When the rifle hunt would come around, I was amazed at how little activity there was on the mountain compared to the opening day thirty years ago. I also noticed that there were hardly any of the young bucks left.
Then a couple of years ago I bought my son a bow, made him practice and took him bow hunting. I was amazed at how much opening day of the bow hunt reminded me of opening day of the rifle hunt years ago. There were hunters everywhere, but not just hunters, hunters with deer in the back of their trucks- especially young bucks. It suddenly hit me that the bow hunt was having a significant impact on buck numbers.
I believe that we are giving the bow hunt to much credit as a low success rate hunt. I honestly believe if we had some statistical data on the bow hunt harvest over the last few years, we would be shocked at how many bucks- particularly young bucks are harvested on the bow hunt.

 

[Daxter]

Nope, the DWR does a harvest survey of archery hunters every year. They do have statistical data on archery harvest. Archery success is typically lower than any weapon (rifle) hunter success. Maybe having the muzz hunt before the rifle hunt has taken its toll on bucks? It used to be in Nov. after the rifle hunt, and they didn't used to use inlines. Muzz hunt success is usually pretty close to rifle hunt success.

Dax

 

[swbuckmaster]

your data you are searching for is right in your own link. the division has always kept track of the numbers.

looks like in 2008
the total success rate was a messily 19% for archery.
the total tags sold were 13,331
the total number of bucks harvested equates to 2551

this is what the data tells me
1975 there were 17,625 archery hunters afield
and they killed 1314 deer
for a 13% success rate

so in 30 years archers kill a 1,000 more deer then they did back in the black and white days.

well in 1975 they didn't have a compound bows and now they do. however in 1975 they also didn't have rifles that you could purchase over the counter and shoot out to 1,000 yards. they also didn't have muzzy's that shot out to 300 yards either. You also didn't have range finders, and you had to drive your daddies big red three wheeler.

My point is every weapon is getting better at killing. since the data shows that archers wound the same amount as any other weapon and the rifle tags are 10 times more prevalent then the archers you cant point the finger at archers and blame them for the reason you cant find a buck to shoot with your pee shooter.

o did I say that the archery state wide is coming back because it was deemed that archers are still so unsuccessful at killing animals and they don't create over crowding issues.

final point
if archery is so bad especially with all the wounded deer running all over the place as someone will no doubt claim to your post. how come you can have a unit without rifle tags and make it over the counter so anyone that wants to pick up a bow can hunt it for 4 months straight clear into the rut. Make it so you can also shoot a doe or a buck. Doesn't have crap for winter range! How come it is increasing in deer numbers and LE quality every year? How come every year I can hunt multiple deer over 30" wide, multiple deer with drop tines, and trash? It just doesn't add up to me.

I'm just not buying what your spewing about the slaughter.
If you think archery is so good now pick up a bow. get'er done!
Dont hate the player hate the game. I know I wanted first crack at the bucks and hated to see orange on every ridge so I adapted. Maybe you should also!

 

[swbuckmaster]

>I was amazed at how
>much opening day of the
>bow hunt reminded me of
>opening day of the rifle
>hunt years ago. There
>were hunters everywhere,

how is that possible with less archery tags sold in 2008 compared to how many were sold in 1975

lets see less archery hunters afield in 2008 then in 1975= more hunters everywhere, looks like opening morning rifle hunt
hmmm
2+2=6

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

post that pit hunter against hunter dont do anything good for hunting.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[caddishatch]

well said SW! Well said!

 

[blazingsaddle]

well......um.....um......I tried to beat what buckmaster said, but I can't
+1!

 

[Deuce]

Where I hunted during the general rifle I did'nt see alot of other hunters and not many deer taken. I think the fact that you need to choose your weapon is a good thing, I also think they try to make it fair for everyone. People have changed tactics, weapons, equipment and seasons in order to gain what they think is an advantage. There will always be those that think thier method is best. The fact is we all like to hunt no matter which method you choose. To each his/her own. It's just to easy to place blame on others and thier particular season. I say just go hunt have fun and stop placing blame on your lack of success on others. I agree with SWB there are some nice bucks out there but, they are where you find them. Do some research and scouting it may pay off for you.

 

[justr_86]

+1 sw.

I for one am eating tag soup this year. Combo of little time to find a buck worth chasing and not wanting to shoot a smaller/young buck. same deal with my wife.

 

[tabbyhntr]

This was my first year bowhunting and I will never go back for a couple reasons. First being the fact that I saw way less hunters bowhunting than rifle hunting. Second the amount of bucks and big bucks I saw would blow your mind compared to any rifle hunt. No I did not harvest my deer but ill never go back to rifle in utah.

 

[Big_uns]

SW,
First of all your % is wrong, on your 1975 archery it actually is about 7.5-8 % not 13!! And, second of all back in 1975 we could still hunt all three hunts because the deer tag came on your combo lic.!! So the numbers would never reflect actual animals harvested (on the bow hunt) because they did not have to exclusively stay with archery tackle as we do now!!

Also, if you look at the numbers of deer harvested back then you will see that the more deer harvested, made healthier and stronger herds!! But, there were fewer doe's harvested (What is that telling us).

East canyon has some of the highest buck to doe ratio's on public/private units and all WEAPONS are allowed isn't that wierd!!!

 

[Big_uns]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-09 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-09 AT 09:12?AM (MST)
SW,
Again what your saying is odd!!

There were less archery hunters in 2008 than in 1975, but the kill percentage doubled from 75-08. Approx. 4000 less hunters yet killed twice as many deer!!

HHHMMM I do not know or understand what you are trying to point out!!! Maybe you need the 2+2 course!!

But I believe 100% we should not fight against one another, rather join in a valuable fight to preserve our heritage!!

 

[caddishatch]

uhhh.... lets see, less than 3,000 deer harvested with a bow compared to over 30,000 harvested with a rifle and the rifle hunters are complaining that the archers are slaughtering the herd? Seriously?

 

[BigPig]

I'm with SW.

I'm convinced that those who complain about bowhunting are those who dont have the balls to try it themselves. Or those that like easy bucks to shoot at 250 yards, rather than having to work hard for them.

 

[WapitiBob]

Just an FYI, they had plenty of Compound bows in 1975.

 

[JLTD]

Wildman; how can it be a "Bow hunt slaughter" when archery hunters account for less than 15% of the total gerneral season harvests a year?

Just Living The Dream

 

[dryflyelk]

>nope, owned and hunted a bow
>for 20 years. And I
>still think by in large
>bow hunters are a bunch
>of fags.

LOL...oh man. Don't even know how to respond. Because...you know what? You're right. Ever since I've started bow hunting, I've had strange desires to decorate my house and explore my artistic side. I also glance over when my hunting buddies are peeing. I didn't know what was causing it. Now I do.

 

[zekers]

LMAO! Guess I'll take my fairy arse back to Brokeback mountain while you and your pumpkin patch pards can whine about why your not seeing any deer!

 

[swbuckmaster]

bigguns

My summed up point

1000 more bucks were harvested in 2008 then in 1975.
WHO GIVES A CRAP! Its a drop in the bucket compared to what rifle hunters harvest! Again who cares! Posts where hunters are fighting against hunters cant be good thing for hunting.

I also wont play the blame game. I am the only one responsible for my success and failures when it comes to hunting. If I tag a big buck I pat myself on the back. If I eat tag soup like this year I say to myself "You will just have to try harder next year."

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[mathewsman]

Reddog & sage,

Those "fags" as you put it have killed more animals than you two dorks have lied about, so go back to your perch, try & find something to gun down from 2 canyons away, & whine about why you're not seeing anything with all the other pumkins.

sw is (again) right on.

 

[slamdunk]

Then there are the ones who brag about their "hit's but didn't recover....those surely aren't counted in the DWR books.

The reason i said that is nothing against archers, it was said in my own response to an earlier thread of mine about my neighbor who brags about all the bucks his boys stick and lose every year....it makes tehm feel "successful".

And to keep myself out of hot water over my post, i lost two spike bulls one year being under gunned on a rifle hunt about 20 years ago, it happens with all weapons unfortunately.

 

[sageadvice]

Mathewesman, Don't get your panties all ruffled dude!

Some times a little humor goes a long ways but i see we hit a nerve that was not intended. As for the amount of animals i've taken, i've gotten my share with no complaints. Those that i've hunted and taken with archery equipment were among my most proud trophies and moments.

It's really tough to have any kind of conversation on this board about archery because soon the finger pointers come out of the woodwork to defend the actions of the poor shots and bad shot selectors among you. There is no doubt that archery equipment in the hands of beginners, arrow flingers, and those that don't practice enough, cause much loss of game. I used to archery hunt and know MANY who still do. Guys think nothing of saying that they "just missed". I believe that if they were a little better shot, they would have "just wounded", and that is why i myself, gave up bowhunting.

For the good, ethical, and hard hunting bowhunters among us, my apologies to you with sincere regret. There is not a group of harder hunting, more respectful guys in the field. There is however "plenty" of hunters who have NO business doing what they do and this is a subject that does need to be addressed...at least occasionally.

Joey

 

[Gator]

Kind like the survey they do with farmers about how much Wheat they will grow so they can set the price on the bushel, WHY would you tell them you was going to grow 10,000 bushels they would set the price low but if you are only growing 10 bushels the price will be higher, so be like the Gov. and lie.
I think the bow hunt takes alot more deer then what is reported.IMO


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[swbuckmaster]

You guys are correct! Its all a conspiracy! Obama and Hillary love the shaft so the want to show their gratitude by sticking it to the rifle hunter.


so this post acomplished what:
Made a few homo cross dressing rifle/bow hunters guys comfortable of their sexuality and brought them out of the closet.
glad it accomplished something. At least now I know who not to invite to my camp!

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[sageadvice]

SW, If your belief is that rifle hunters are your enemy, i suspect you need to take off the blinders. As i mentioned in my last post, it's those within your own section of our sport, buck hunting the big picture, that gives archery a bad name at times and no amount of sticking your head in the sand, oblivious or ready to defend what's happening, is going to change that.

As far as not being invited to your camp... I'm not running for office, nor am i in a popularity contest, i don't even really care if you agree with me but I'm always going to say what i feel right!! I've have been over the hill and thru the woods enough times with a trophy buck on my back, old style, to find and make my own camp, thank you. I roll that way, always have.

Joey

 

[mathewsman]

I'm not naming any names so I'll address rifle guys in general. You have enough of your own problems to worry about let alone what goes on in the archery world. I absolutely agree that unfortunately archers wound their fare share of animals, but for you to point the finger at archers is VERY hypocritical! "Beginner archers flinging arrows," kind of reminds of rifle guy blowing the dust off his gun as he's packing for his hunt, and then taking 300 plus yard shots during his hunt. Look, we can point fingers at each other all day long why the hunting sucks during rifle season (the jist of why this thread was started), but for a rifle guy to blame his lack of seeing bucks on the "bow hunt slaughter" is absolutely ridiculous!

 

[REDDOG]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-09 AT 02:10AM (MST)[p]mathewsman, you make my point so well, I don't even need to explain..... and I'm glad you found a hero in SWbuckmaster.


Congratulations?

 

[swbuckmaster]

sage
im not against rifle hunters in any way I own lots of rifles. I also hunt with them. Do yourself a favor and go back and read all my posts slowly.

never mind ill try and condense it again so you can understand it ready here it goes:

I'm sick of these posts where one hunter atacks another hunter. It does nothing good for hunting!

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-09 AT 06:29AM (MST)[p]I'm done with this post! I've been drug down to your guys level long enough. "Not naming names" How do accomplish anything when their best come back comment is:

Your a fag LOL!
No i'm not your a fag LOL.
LOL that was a good one lol.

It sounds like im typing to Bevis and Butthead.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Deuce]

The rifle hunt sucks,yeah right! No hunting sucks regardless of which method you use,it is still enjoyable to all of us or we would'nt do it. There is plenty of wounding and losing of animals to go around. As I said before do some research and scouting, go hunting and have a good time. Take the time to enjoy some of the other things hunting offers not just the kill. Bickering amongst our selves is no good at all.

 

[sageadvice]

SW, i resent your implication that i've not tried to discuss this in an intelligent manner. Bevis and Butthead? More finger pointing and denial, but, that must be good for our sport??

As i mentioned above, It's near impossible to discuss anything to do with the negative perception many people have of "some" archery hunters. I would like to think that the majority of excellent archers out there would take the lead in policing their own ranks, push for strict mandated competency tests before being allowed to hunt. Something??

I tried.

Joey

 

[lucaar]

I think we should also push for "stict mandated competency tests" before being able to hunt with any weapon....don't you?

 

[Silentstalker]

Sage,

I think the tests should apply to all weapons. There is no limit to the carnage in the mountains of utah after the rifle deer and elk hunts. You name it does, cows, small bucks, average bucks, moose, Mature bull elk. But we should overlook that huh?

Yes, bow hunters wound and lose animals. No argument there. But look in the mirror as far as rifle hunting goes. Longer shots, very little follow up or looking for blood, and a pile of animals dying and never found. Tons of guys never bothering to sight in their rifles and hunting drunk.

I am not speaking from speculation either. I spend a lot of time in the back country and I am telling you what I have seen with my own eyes. Look at the MM posts this year. Lots of wounded animals with all weapon types. It is sad and maybe something that we all as hunters need to look at. Maybe shortening our shot selection? Taking an extra second before we touch off the bullet or arrow? Maybe following up on that shot that the animal shows no reaction too??

I am sick and tired of unethical shots and hunter blaming hunter. You rifle guys always blame the bow hunters, bow hunters then blaming the rifle guys. Police your own and do your best in the field. It is really not that hard. And yes, sometimes bad things happen we cannot control. Then we do our best to find the animal.

As one infamous person once said "Can't we all just get along?"

 

[mathewsman]

REDDOG,
Sw is not my hero, but his points are almost always well thought out , explained, and articulated in a matter that can be understood...unlike your juvenile CRAP! I totally agree with the "competency" suggestions made

 

[MBM]

Nice post SilentStalker. I agree 10000% !!!!!!!

Mark

 

[sageadvice]

"But look in the mirror as far as rifle hunting goes."

Nothing new here, just more of the same point and blame the other guy but said a little nicer and some good points made. Thank you!!

Far as that goes, i'd love to see tuff competency tests for all those who wish to hunt, each with their prospective arms. Just like a drivers license, where you could be big rig, auto, and motorcycle certified. With your hunting license, if good enough, you could be tag certified in one, or all of; pistol, rifle, archery, or muzzleloader.

Joey

 

[Silentstalker]

I think that is a great idea. I wish the DWR was better funded. I know they would dismiss the idea due to lack of manpower. But it is worth a try!

 

[Max_1]

It is very disheartening to see all of the finger pointing that goes on in topics like this. As a bowhunter I have no problem taking an archery test. Several other states already do this. I also believe that everyone that hunts should be required to renew their hunter's safety every four to five years. And maybe it's time they start taking shooting tests with something bigger than a .22. We will never be able to stop the wounding and loss of game, but we can at least reduce it in all the different weapon categories.

 

[Wildman]

Sorry I haven't been back to this post since I first posted. I've been a little busy.

First of all, thanks Dax for pointing out the archery data. I obviously missed it in my search.

Before I get into the statistics, I would like to defend my motivation for starting this post. It was not to pit hunter against hunters- although that seems to be an issue with some. It was in response to the continual calls for cutting rifle permits. It is fresh on my mind due to some of the discussion around the recent RAC meetings and proposed hunt changes.

Although I have bow hunted before, I admit I am not an avid bow hunter- not because I don't enjoy it, but because I have limited days afield and choose to spend them rifle hunting.

Although I have been accused of being lazy or whatever on this post, my reasoning for choosing the rifle hunt has more to do with tradition and memories than anything else. I grew up rifle hunting and the time of year etc. are what brings the memories back and make a large part of the experience for me. I am also very fond of hard horned deer rather than the velvet. Something about a late October dark horned buck is what gets me out there in the mornings.

Contrary to some of the accusations made in this post, I am not complaining about the lack of deer during the rifle hunt. I have been hunting the same deer for three years, and to my knowledge no bow hunter is even aware this buck exists. As far as equipment goes, I have honestly considered a tree stand to hunt this deer because he hangs in very thick cover offering very few open shots.

What does concern me is the possibility that rifle hunting big bucks in late October will become a once in every 5-10 years opportunity. I am not a whiner about lack of quality. I have never had any trouble finding mature bucks on public land. You just have to be willing to explore areas where nobody else is willing or thinks to go.

With that said, lets look at the statistics. According to the Big Game Report, general season archers statewide had a 19.7% success rate, general season muzzle loader hunters had a 27.6% harvest rate and general season any weapon hunter had a 28.0% success rate state wide. Although Dax's comment about archers having the lowest success rate is true, I think some people would be surprised that the success rates of rifle hunters are only 8.3 percentage points higher than archery success rates statewide.

My only point is that when hunting season recommendations are made, it seems like the bow hunt gets a free pass because of its lower success rates when in all actuality the percentages are much closer than many realize.

My point is not to bash bow hunters. I have no qualms with bow hunters themselves, but if cutting tag numbers is on the table, I'm not convinced that the bow hunt should get a free pass.

 

[Wildman]

By the way, can anyone tell me if the DWR tracks statistics on the number of out of state bow hunters and their success rates?

 

[JakeH]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-09 AT 11:03PM (MST)[p]Yeah there is a 8% difference in success between archery and Rifle hunters BUT there is also a HUGE difference in the amount of archery tags given out, archery hunters only take a small percentage of the deer killed each year, where rifle takes the most, so if it gets to the point where we need to lower tags then it would make sense to take most of them from the rifle hunting group and take some from muzzy and archery, you cant look at the success rate you have to look at the number of deer killed during each hunt.




Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

 

[Wildman]

I think that with only an 8% difference in success rate, if tags have to be cut they should be cut by pretty much equal percentages for all the hunts.

My point is that there seems to be some bow hunters who are adamant about cutting rifle tags- it would seem because it doesn't affect them. I think if someone is sincerely dedicated to the cut tags approach they should be just as adamant about it when it is their hunt.

 

[JakeH]

I have never seen anybody say that we need to cut "Rifle Tags" I have seen people say that we need to cut tags but havent seen them single out rifle hunters while doing it.

That being said its not going to do you much good to cut archery tags because there are so many more rifle tags, about 8 rifle tags to every 1 archery tag, the only way you are going to make a difference is to cut rifle tags.

I have seen where you are said you are worried about cutting so much that it limits us to hunting every 4-5 years and you are worried about recrutment of younger people to the sport, but you also have to take into account that if they are not haveing a good exsperiance then they will be turned away as well.


Over all I dont see why you are so worried about archery hunters, they are not part of the problem.....at all... they kill a fraction of the deer each year I do not see why you are so hung up on archery hunters.

Archery hunters are not a problem and are not Slaughtering all the deer in the state.




Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!

 

[Deerlove]

Yea people are flocking to Utah to hunt the otc bow tag.

 

[MTQuivers]

The 13,000 + archery tags listed above reflects the out of state tags as well. Once they are gone they are gone. You can twist it anyway you would like to twist it but archery hunters kill a very small percentage of the overall mule deer harvest each year. If you are trying to blame your lack of success or bad experiences on the rifle hunt you are barking up the wrong tree. Get educated and look at the statistics and you will see that your claims sound quite ridiculous. I am all for improving the deer herds here in Utah in anyway possible but making uneducated claims on an "archery slaughter" is not a solution.

F.Y.I.--- You can not title a post "Bow hunt slaughter" and then retract statements and say that you were not trying to pit one hunter against another. You made strong statements and claims that were uneducated opinions with no statistical relevance and made yourself look like an idiot. In the future think a little bit before opening your pie hole.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys

 

[fatherofthree]

You'd ber surprised how many out of state archery hunters there are on some of the units that border other states, go see how many more AZ and NM plates you see on the blues....

I've hunted with all weapons but have basically become almost strictly a bow hunter over the past 15 years. I can say that I've killed, wounded, and missed bucks with all weapons.

I also think it's a no brainer that every weapon has become more efficient and success rates should reflect that. If we have higher success rates across the board, we should have fewer tags. I don't know if this is the case or not.

I wouldn't be opposed to having to draw deer tags and choose either any buck or 3 point or better. I know this would be an enforcement nightmare to have two type of tags on all units, but this might be a way of controlling how many young bucks are killed. Because let's face it, I could shoot a truckload of two point deer with my bow every year.

 

[MTQuivers]

correction:: I meant to say if you are trying to blame your poor rifle experience on the archery hunts you are barking up the wrong tree.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys

 

[Califelkslayer]

It doesn't matter if an archer is taking a 60 yard shot or a rifle hunter is taking a 450 yard shot. Most aren't efficient at that range and it results in lost game.

And there are many that can take game efficiently at ranges far exceeding these. You just have to know who you are.

I hunt any legal season depending on season dates, conflicts with other hunts, etc. But archery takes the most dedication by far to be efficient.

 

[one_dryboot]

i hunt with both and have lost game with both. it happens, it sucks and it will happen to the best of the best. bow hunt slaughter? dream on in your little fantasy world

 

[Gator]

My post wasn't a hit on archery it was to explain to all that alot of people(hunters I have talked to) don't put crap down on the harvest report that they killed any thing(any kind of buck) they feel the DWR don't need to know,because they will just lower the tags if too many are reported killed in a season and unit.

It don't matter if it archery, rifle or Muzzy they just don't report any kills.

It kind of like lion kills if it gets fed on by a lion it a lion kill that they now own it. it don't matter if it died of something else. Any thing founded during the rifle season dead is right away given to the archery hunters as a kill that was lost.It don't matter it was hit by a car or just died on it own.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".