Block Managment

N

NDhunter

Guest
Here is a letter I am going to send to MT FWP concerning their Block Managment Program...The squeaky wheel gets the grease, feel free to send one too, maybe we can make some simple changes that would vastly improve the program. Please tell me that I am not the only one who feels this way.

To whom it may concern:
I am writing this letter in the hopes that Montana will make some changes in regards to the BMA program. It is a good program but it could be amazing if some common sense were applied to the administration of the program.
Specifically I am referencing the secretive nature of the maps for individual BMA?s. The Department's web site addresses the issue by saying the following: ?The Department and landowners are concerned that if maps are displayed electronically on the Web site, many of the individual BMA hunter management systems that are the fundamental reason landowners have agreed to participate in the program may be compromised, with hunters simply viewing the map and traveling to the BMA or contacting the landowner without realizing that very specific rules may apply to that BMA.?
My response to that is simply this; don't assume that hunters are going to break the rules that are on the books. It is pure speculation that hunters will ?simply view the map and travel to the BMA or contact the landowner without realizing that very specific rules may apply to that BMA?. This assumption that the Department has adopted is fact less and without any basis. Enforce the laws that are in place, and be tough on those that break the laws that are in effect. Why should the average hunter have to jump through hoops and have a difficult time finding a place to hunt based on assumptions that in my eyes are invalid? There are many states including North Dakota, Texas, South Dakota, Kansas, Wyoming, and Idaho, to name just a few, that print all of their private land access maps on the internet. Many of which have individual and specific regulations pertaining to that particular parcel available to public hunting.
As far as the statement that ?landowners have agreed to participate in the program?, yes they have and they are being compensated?in large part by my high nonresident license and application fees. So why isn't it a stipulation in the agreement with them that the map of their BMA will be available on the internet? Is the Department afraid they will lose some participation with the landowners over this issue? From the sportsman?s side I can tell you that I would rather lose that type of participant, in the long run we would be able to access more land since I would be able to know where it is, and how to gain access at the drop of a hat.
With the technology we have today, the Department could ensure that individuals who would like to view a map of a particular BMA view the specific rules prior to viewing the actual map. This could be done simply by only allowing access to the map link once an individual has read the particular rules for that BMA. Or you could have sportsmen log into an account to gain access to this information (similar to the bear test) and check a box stating that they have read the rules. There are many ways to skin this cat, but something needs to be done. This would cut down substantially on costs incurred by the Department by not having to print out as many maps, and it would make planning a hunt much easier for all sportsmen.
If the above concern would be rectified then I would not need to bring up my next complaint, but until there is resolution I will bring it up. Why the disparity between Region 1-5 BMA?s and Region 6 and 7? It makes no sense to me that a sportsman can go to an FWP office and get maps for BMA?s in Regions 1-5, but in Region 6 and 7 that same sportsman has to go to the individual BMA (a process that can take a ridiculous amount of time to just track down one)! When I was in Helena and asked Mr. XXX XXXX about this and the issue identified above I got the typical political run around. Essentially he would not give me an adequate answer to my question, and essentially chose to evade the questions that I brought up in order to tell me that the program is great and needs no change. He even produced at the drop of a hat (coincidence??) some little green cards sent in from sportsmen saying what a great program the BMA is. Mr. XXXX? stance may have to do with the conflict of interest that exists between him and his rancher friends in Region 7 that he has to please. His position was that I should come out early and find the BMA?s before season starts and that way I would not have to run around looking for sign in boxes during the season. My point is that I shouldn't have to. My vacation time is precious, and I don't live within a 1 day drive of MT, so why doesn't the program reflect the wishes of the typical sportsman? If we could print or view the maps off the internet this issue would be a moot point.
I could bore you with examples of how this could have greatly helped in the few times that I have had the opportunity to hunt in Montana, but will cut it short. In summation, I essentially donate over $100 to the Montana FWP every year in the form of nonrefundable application fees and feel that with that kind of price tag I should receive, at a minimum, a voice in how some of your private land programs are run. As I stated earlier, the program could be great, but it is not there yet. Please provide me with a response at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely
 
Not for region 6 or 7. You can ONLY get them from the BMA site. Page 2 bottom paragraph of the Block Mgt Hunting Access Guide.
 
>The mailman will bring the maps
>right to your house!!! mtmuley
>
i have tried repeatedly to get maps in the mail. The Glasgow office will only send one at a time. Why not sell a book of all maps in each region for 50 or 100 dollars. That way a sportsmen has them at there fingertips and F&G can make some more monet toward the program... the big district map is tuff to navigate on to find lots of the smaller BMA's. I leke the system and use it alot, it could be better.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-10 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]Then use the guide and available BLM AND FS maps. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out where the BMA is. mtmuley
 
Mtmuley, if you could just find 'em on a map and hunt them it would be great. But even if you find the BMA on the big BMA map of the whole region you still have to sign in to hunt it.

I will give you two examples of why what you stated above is not very feasable. Treasure county BMA's 284 and 279, both are Type II, which means permission is not granted by the hunter... the BMA's encompass 130,630 and 82,783 acres respectively. You could drive around an entire day and still not find where the sign in box is located, or who to talk to if no one is home.

I dont want to assume anything, but your handle implies you are from MT, and it sounds like you are ok with the system and how it works. If you are that is great, I wish I was satisfied with how it is run. Everyone I have hunted with out in Region 7 agrees that is is a cluster.
 
I can tell you why the Glasgow office only sends out one map at a time. It was at the request of landowners and there were enough of them to make their point that they believe it is easy to find BMA's.

I don't think your letter is going to change much because the landowners will have more say then you do. There are enough hunters who stop by the Region 6 HQ here in Glasgow that tell the staff what a wonderful thing Block Management is that the local office is not going to do anything additional.

Also, not trying to sound like a jerk but NR DIY hunters have little to nothing to do with funding Block Management. The funding comes from the Outfitter Sponsored License, some from Pittman-Robertson money and a minute amount from DIY hunters, both resident and NR. Your voice is not going to carry much weight as most of you $100 is not used for access enhancement.

This is why we need to overhaul the entire program and make it so the people who enjoy and get the benefit of the Block Management program also fund the bulk of it. It would make both the users and the administrators have more ownership in the program and would stop the Outfitters from using the Block Management funding as leverage to get more for themselves.

Nemont
 
ND Hunter,

IMHO it needs to be tough to get the maps to keep people crawling all over the private land owner's land. If anyone could get a map any time we'd lose some Block Management participation.

I'm certain you have a point about making it a bit easier, but we're lucky to have the program at all. Hopefully you'll rattle a cage and some compromise can be made. I do like your idea about charging a bundle for a bunch of maps as an option. I'll bring that up to a region 3 "land of no block management" warden.

Many years ago several of us recommended that the FWP sell advertising space in the regs and a few people freaked out. Now its happening. Changes can be made.

MTFWP is doing all they can to screw up the upland game bird-type block management in the NE corner of the state by not spending the funds on game bird enhancement...don't push them too hard!

I'm all for changes in block management funding. It needs to change, along with not providing any tax payer funded assistance to ranchers who keep the public (who pay for the programs) off their land. It's their choice. Two sources of funds: one paid for by farm/ranch taxes that they can use all they want. Other source paid for by the rest of us (taxes) that they can access with hunter/bird watcher/etc. access. More free market-ish vs. the current welfare program.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-10 AT 12:46PM (MST)[p]My understainding is that the landowners get paid by the number of people who utilize their BMA. Why the hell wouldn't they want you to know where it is?? The landowners can still tell you they don't want you to hunt, because they have too many hunters for that day, or for what ever reason they dream up really. The logic that BMA's will be overutilized if you have access to a map of the land via the internet is rediculious and pure speculation, and as I stated above the landowner has the final say anyways! All I want is to be able to find the damn place without killing a day driving around looking for a sign in box when I could be hunting.

NeMont-Right out of the web site..."Program funding comes from the sale of various licenses, including the resident and nonresident hunting access enhancement fee, nonresident upland gamebird licenses, nonresident variable-priced, outfitter-sponsored combination deer/elk licenses, and chances sold in the Supertag license lottery." So, the DIY hunter when he/she draws a combo lic is funding the program. The Outfitter Sponsored tags will be going away soon, and with that an increase in NR hunting licenses, so the hated out of state DIY hunter will eventually be paying for the program I would guess.
 
First off I don't hate NR hunters, never have and never will. I help NR every year, hunt and host some every year and know that their dollars are important to our economy. I bet I am far more welcoming then the welcome I get every year in North Dakota when I am hunting and fishing and spending my money there, so bark up a different tree.

Believe as you wish but DIY combo tags put a pittance into the BMA program, just like Resident tags. It is the Outfitter Sponsored Licenses that pay for the bulk of the program. Yes a few of your dollars go into the BM program, just like resident's access fee but it is miniscule compared to the Outfitter Sponsored tags. Your voice is not as large as a single Outfitter Sponsored NR.

If you want I can pull the budget numbers, fiscal notes and enabling legislation to show you the money. Trust me I have been involved in some ugly slogs with other resident hunters when advocating for funding sources and to stop sticking it to NR hunters. It is total BS funding mechanism and it is unfair to NR hunters as they pay for access they don't necessarily get to enjoy. When ever one group of citizens has something paid for by somebody else there is a disconnect.

I believe if Montana Resident hunters funded the bulk of their own access it would give the average Joe more ownership in that program. It would make resident hunters more connected to the program and it would make them have a vested interest in the program.

As for landowners, there is a feeling among some that they are already overrun and advertising is not something they wanted to do. Also it is, according to some of them, a privacy issue. I have sat through the meeting and listened. Some of those with the most acres did not want online maps at least for their BMA's.

Nemont
 
>My understainding is that the landowners
>get paid by the number
>of people who utilize their
>BMA.

correct. However, very key point, many don't do it just for the money. Lot's of BMA land sucks and outfitters wouldn't lease it anyways. BMA gets them something. Some land owners don't like outfitters, others want every wild creature shot, others just like to give the average Joe a place to hunt, others do want to make some money.

There are quite a few land owners that use the BMA sign up system, forms, etc. that don't even want to be in the book. I've found a few and asked them why. Normal answer is that they like a few people showing up to keep the critters at bay, give a working guy a place to hunt, but don't want everyone to know about them or they'll be overrun and shut it down. I duck hunt on one place, deer hunt on another and both have asked me to not let others know.

>Why the hell
>wouldn't they want you to
>know where it is??

Because some don't want to get overrun with phone calls and door knockers. They actually work sometimes away from their front door. Having too many people drive on their personal property when they're working on the back 40 isn't too comforting.

This isn't a retail shop where foot traffic is going to make or break them.

>The landowners can still tell
>you they don't want you
>to hunt, because they have
>too many hunters for that
>day, or for what ever
>reason they dream up really.

Assuming they have all the time in the world and like all kinds of people knocking on their door.

Some would do this, others would immediately opt out.

> The logic that BMA's
>will be overutilized if you
>have access to a map
>of the land via the
>internet is rediculious

Thank you. You must be right. What would we know?

You do bring up a good point that you might want to add to your letter: ask the FWP to ask land owners if they want their land maps posted on the internet to increase traffic and increase their payment. They could opt in or out of having their map posted for all to see.

>All I want is to be
>able to find the damn
>place without killing a day
>driving around looking for a
>sign in box when I
>could be hunting.

If its too much work, don't do it. There are other hobbies other than hunting that require less work. I have former hunting friends who don't like to do the work required to hunt these days. They stay home and ##### about how tough it is. The rest of us enjoy it and understand the work required.

BMA isn't perfect. It isn't set up for your personal convenience only. It's a nasty balancing act against the real or percieved decline in public hunting, getting access to private land, paying land owners a small amount, competing with outfitters, policing the public that gets access. It aint easy.

>so the hated out of state
>DIY hunter will eventually be
>paying for the program I
>would guess.

Wrong. I host (yes, host, as in invite, feed, let stay at my house, use my vehicles and some gas money) out of state DIY varmint hunters almost every year. I've taken them deer hunting a few times too. Doesn't matter if someone's from out of state. There are slob hunters and good hunters, pleny of each from Montana and out of state.

Write your letter, best of luck
 
Ne, my comment concerning the "hated NR hunter" wasn't meant towards you. I didn't mean to imply anything concerning your views, if you took it that way-my apoligies. I bet you are right that you are more welcoming than most ND sportsmen. I think it is sad the way that a lot of ND hunters treat NR hunters. When I was younger I had a bit of that mindset, but with age I realized we are on the same team. You are more than welcome to go to my old stomping grounds anytime. I would even give you the GPS coordinates of the last place I saw a pheasant before Mother Nature took out a big chunk of em.

I just can't understand why in Wyoming for instance, none of the landowners have a problem with maps of their places accessible via the internet, yet an arbitrary line in the sand (state border to the North) causes people to have an entirely different mindset.

So who is footing the bill for Block Mgt when the Outfitter Sp licenses go away?
 
mtAl, I didn't come on here to start a brawl, just thought about hunting antelope in MT and was frustrated as hell with the way things went on our last outing.

"Thank you. You must be right. What would we know?"

Maybe, I am wrong...I guess we will never know since MT FWP won't give it a shot. Where is the data that indicates that it won't work? The philosophy that they have is based on assumptions. Seems to work in a lot of other places just fine though. I am not the type of guy who always has to be right, sometimes a guy has to take a stance on what he believes unless facts dictate a change in thinking.

Sounds like you are happy with the system, I am sincerely happy that you are if that is the case. It is a good system, but could use some improvenents in my opinion.

Again my "hated NR hunter" comment wasn't aimed at you either, it was a general observation, so don't take offense.
 
I think part of it is a mistrust of technology and no added benefit to the landowner. Once a piece is enrolled having the map posted online would not result in any more compensation to the landowner so the automatic default response is don't do it.

Not saying it is right but that is the way it the perception. I tell you what I am going to call the local Block Management coordinator for region 6 and find out if they can make the maps available online and to get the company line as to why they won't.

Nemont
 
NDhunter, I am a Native Montanan, and for the few times I have used BMA areas, I have no complaint. Before you assume it is easier for me because I live here, on an elk hunt a few years ago, the BMA areas I hunted were an 8 hour drive from my home. If the landowner does it right, in conjunction with the Guide and signs posted, it should be clear as to where to sign in. Right now in Montana, there are a lot more issues I feel are way more important than NR hunters being inconvienienced in the location of huntable private property. mtmuley
 
NDHunter, I'm embarassed for you..

Here's a tool that'll get you far if you put in a little time and quit expecting other to do your work for you. Thankfully, it would appear the state of MT has more important things to do than pamper lazy hunters.

http://nris.state.mt.us/gis/ownmaps.asp
 
Spaz, you live up to your handle well, and my feelings toward you are mutual. The link you provided, is handy to track down the landowner of some unknown chunck of private ground (and I actually had that saved as a fav on my last comp), but it does not have any direct correlation with the BMA system. What good is it to know who the property owner is if you don't know where the sign in box is? Sure it gives you a starting point, but not much. For example...Let's say you did your homework and your plan was to go to some public/BMA property and along the way you spot a nice goat on what you think is a chunck of BMA ground (#101 in Dawson county for example)...how do you know where the sign in box for BMA #101 up in Dawson county is? It is only 28,000 acres. That is 43 square miles you get to try to cover to find a box to sign in at...you have to begin by assuming the box is located at the landowners house.

Don't call me lazy, you don't know me-and I take offense to it. Here I am planning 9 months ahead of time for a hunt I don't even know if I will go on. Just seeing if others felt the system could be more user friendly considering the technology we have now days.

Now I know why I don't post on here often, I'll tell you what...I will just send my letter so I can sleep better at night knowing I gave it a shot. Glad some of you are happy with the way it is, I was just trying to offer ideas to make a service better-not trying to reinvent the wheel-or revamp an entire program.
 
NDhunter, My post wasn't intended to offend. I apologize if your problem isn't high on FWP's list. The participation of some landowners in the BMA program can be swayed one way or another because of requirements just like the one you are proposing. Out of curiousity I reviewed the specific BMA maps that I have aquired lately. About 1/4 of them do not denote a sign-in box anyway. (Purposely?) I realize the BMA system here in Montana isn't perfect, but we are damn lucky we have it at all. mtmuley
 
I hunted some BMA last year and thought it was alittle confusing at first getting maps, but once I had it figured out it works really well and I think its a great program. My only suggestion to F&G is that the maps should be alittle more detailed. I was always worried about crossing into another or wrong property due to the lack of detail in the maps when using them for navigation.

Muleyczy
 
One more thing i forgot to mention in my last post was Ive spoken with allot of fish and game wardens throughout the years and I had to call a Montana warden this year with some questions. The warden I spoke to was the nicest and most helpfull warden I have ever spoke to. He answered allot of my questions regarding Montana and the BMA program. Kudos to Montana Fish and Game.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-10 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]>...I will just
>send my letter so I
>can sleep better at night
>knowing I gave it a
>shot.

As long as you gave it your best shot that's all that really matters..

:D
 
When I first read this last night I had to walk away from it! It angered me that many fellow Montana hunters felt that the FWP BMA program was good enough! In fact it is very poorly administered, and furthermore most of it is poor land that isn't fit for a landfill. The books of BMA numbers offers no info on land ownership or location, A ranch name is not a suitable replacement for an owners name. Most ranches have gone by the same name since probably before statehood, and give no indication of ownership.Why people settle for OK when this program could be awesome! Would you settle for an Ok yearling buck when you know there are B&C mature bucks out there?
 
blacksheep, YOU angered me. If you do not care for the BMA program, quit your f-ing bitching and do not use BMA lands. Simple. mtmuley
 
Nice use of profanity mtmule read the forum rules. A person that is in the BMA program or knows someone who has land in the BMA program would lash out like that. The very same people that have their buddies and relatives fill out all of their BMA coupons to get their max paycheck and cheat the system! OUT
 
Blacksheep,

How about offering up your tidbits to turn the BMA program into a "great" program.

If you have some good ideas why not enlighened the great unwashed? As for landowners cheating the system, I don't doubt some do but I guarantee you that it is not the majority of landowners.

I don't know that the BMA program is worth it a lot of the times especially, as I say, on the funding side. You are a Montana resident and you/me/all residents should be shouldering the bulk of the funding not relying on NR hunters nor letting Outfitters use the funding to always tool to hammer residents with.

So offer up your wisdom, I can tell you right up front that if it involves demanding things from the landowners that is not going to happen.

Nemont
 
The bottom line is you get what you pay for. It's a good program, and even if it were funded to the brim and provided beautiful glossy colored and on-line tutorials on how to hunt, where to look, where to park and sign in, and how to harvest your B&C animals, somebody would complain because it didn't also wipe their butt when they took a dump in the field.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-10 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]

If you don't think there is room for improvement in the program that is fine. I think there is not only room for improvement but also some huge political and equity problems built in.

I expect nobody to wipe my butt for anything. I am uncertain that the status quo on Block Management is even sustainable. We lose acres every year and not all of them to outfitters. One ranch chose to just not participate due to some political BS with the Govenor's office.

Nemont
 
Nemont, of course there's room for improvement, make comments and send it like NDhunter, but I think the improvements will come with a price tag. My butt-wipe comment wasn't directed to you..
 
I understand that some feel that there is room for improvement in the BMA program. I also understand that demanding this improvement, whatever it may be, from participating landowners, may come at the cost of the landowners participation. This is a VOLUNTARY program. It is not, and can not, be tailor made to every hunters needs and desires. Use it and enjoy it if you can. If you can't seem to get a positive experience, stay home. mtmuley
 
Actually I think it can be improved without landowners being affected in a bad way. It doesn't have to be tailored to every hunter either. But some improvements would actually help landowners.

Nemont
 
I think that everything in life to include us as hunters can fit some room for inmproved in our lives. However, with a 100% voluntary program, such as the BMA program and the HMA in Wyoming, where the land would be otherwise unaccessable, its great and I appreciate their (landowners) generosity allowing access. With some constructive sugestions hopefully we as sportsman can improve the BMA program.

With every piece of property there are some area's that are more or less sutable for a specific species. With alittle homework and some rubber burning you can usually narrow down the "worth while" property and the less productive areas.

In 2009 I found some property completely absent of Antelope and some abundent, but it took me several days of searching different area's. Without the BMA program, I wouldnt have had the oppurtunity to do so. Keep what we have and improve upon it.
 
The system is a joke, it creates more work than its worth. I dont even recognize or use the BMA in MT!I just look at how I hunt here in WA and ID, I scout, I see an area I want to hunt I go knock on doors and get info, screw this hidden map crap. You tell me how many BMA's are in the state?? its a frickin ton!!! like people are going to be overloading landowners doors! right, MT is a huge state and capped on licenses to non residents.People on here makes it out like people will be driving bus after bus to landowners doors. I could care less for the program, the landowners that want hunters will let you hunt if you ask, simple. Start knocking! Thats how I have done it for 20 years! Being a bowhunter I get 8 out 10 say yes and I have met some really nice people who have said no, but given me some very useful info on where to go. Talking with people face to face goes a long way.
 

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