Big Deer?

W

Wildman

Guest
So, I have a question I have thought about for a long time. Do you guys believe there are truly big bucks on general hunting units in Utah that just never get seen?

Case in Point: The Mike Carter buck that was taken on a general unit a few years ago- a true trophy buck taken on a general hunting unit as I understand it by a local guy with the help of his family.

As near as I can tell, the buck was an unknown until days before the hunting season it was taken, yet it was a true monster. Was the buck just a freak thing, or do you believe there are others out there like him who just never get seen?

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
Any area that is heavily hunted to maximize hunter participation, not trophy status, has few deer that escape multiple seasons for multiple years enough to reach trophy status. However, the odds are against them. Do a few slip through the cracks? Sure!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-18-15 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]WILD, I'm perty convinced that there are some monsters on some GS Units.
The unseen part is a struggle for me. I know on the Wasatch Front Extended
hunt that what I see in November is totally different from what I see come November 15.

I'm not sure if these bucks are holed up on private ground or just prefer to live in area's I can't physically get to and manage to get the animal out of. 50 and fat reduces realistic options.

I do know of a couple of drainages that produce monsters year after year.


58 I'd argue that point. Access and method of take matter.



"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
The intriguing thing to me about cases like the Mike Carter buck is, if that one family hadn't found him, he very easily could have died of natural causes and never have been known to man. As near as I know, there wasn't another person on the planet that knew he existed- not even on winter range. That's amazing to me.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
wiley,

I have a tendency to enjoy tromping around some very nasty places looking for deer sign. I honestly believe there are some big deer holed up in some of those nasty places. Once you get into some of those places, it isn't that hard to believe that a truly big buck could hole up in there and never be seen.

Another evidence of that is a tendency I have seen for large bucks to be taken off of recently burned timber areas. It would seem those bucks get a chance to grow in the cover of the timber, but when the timber burns, they become easier to locate. I think that may have been part of the equation with the Carter buck- just from the pictures and knowing the area he was taken in.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
I certainly believe there are a few great deer that live in general units. However, when I see pictures of a giant I often wonder what he looked like the year before? With the right circumstances, I think a deer can put on an astonishing amount of inches from one year to the next. Like going from 4 years old in a drought year to 5 years old in a high precipitation year.
So, maybe he had been seen before, just not with that much bone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-18-15 AT 10:55PM (MST)[p]http://www.monstermuleys.com/cgi-bin/store/store.pl?page=aa-wasatchfrontmuleys

When ya don't have a road on every ridge and your
Choice of weapon ain't all that effective past about 40 yards
The above happens. Every year.

Even with either sex hunting and a season that's almost four
Months long.

But, it ain't politically correct to manage this way.


I'm also convinced that as bucks age they tend to figure hunters
Out. A couple years ago I found a bruiser of a buck in a pretty heavily
Hunted area. I tinked an arrow off the rest on the first encounter and bumped
Him a short ways, after he bedded I located him again. From across the canyon
I watched this buck let half a dozen hunters and a couple of hikers walk within
60 yards of where he was bedded. He didn't twitch.

The biggest buck I ever laid eyes on was a half mile south of the old church house on top of Fishlake, he let us shoot jackrabbits right over the top of him
Till we got within easy bow range. He was stretched out in sage that couldn't have been a foot tall. All the years I hunted down there I only saw one group on horseback work this area.

It is possible.




"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
I'm sure it happens, more so where bucks have heavy timber to hide in the most of the time. Especially if they don't have to migrate long distances for winter. The more miles they put on the more opportunities for hunters to find them.

Little off topic but there are whitey's that die of old age in northern Minnesota. That big timber up there with no breaks is easy for bucks to escape hunters.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Yes, there are some real whoppers in general areas, but not many. First of all, they need the genetics to be real giants (over 200" type), then they need to live long enough to reach that size, which with some deer is 3 years, others 6 or 7. Very, very, very few big deer slip through the cracks multiple years in general hunt areas. I would guess most of the surprise whoppers that are killed are 3-4 years old and just happened to have great genetics and were able to grow real big.

I know I've had people tell me that in Wyoming lots of big bucks survive because they're so smart. I disagree based on my time up there. Over the past 2 seasons, I know for fact that 4 of the biggest 5 bucks I found all got killed. And that 5th one, might also be toast.
However, I know there's a few bucks up there that slip through the cracks year after year. Hard to say why.....probably because they're just a deer that dives into a timbered canyon that offers no vantage points for hunters and they can make it. But not many in my opinion.

Here in Utah, same deal. Utah is just much easier to hunt than Wyoming, so hunters have even more of an advantage over the bucks.

With the amazing optics, fire power, time off work to scout and hunt, hunters just have such a huge advantage over those bucks. It's hard for them to slip through the cracks and avoid hunters one year. To do it multiple years is really a feat.

That's my opinion. Don't know if I'm right, but based on my experience hunting and scouting mule deer, that's it.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
the thing that may be over looked is the fact that your average 4 or 5 year old will only be a 170 class size buck ever, even with good genetics. In people there is going to be only 1 fastest runner on the planet no matter how much you work at it your not likely going to be at the top or any were close,your going to be a 170.One unit may have that one tiger woods but he may be killed at a forky. When I see bucks as big as 200 plus it is always at ten yards away hunting birds and they were flushed with my dogs, that is why you cant use dogs, and there is always one around. when someone asks me were to hunt I always tell them hunt were you dont think there is deer or find the worst looking spot, you should be alone.If you want to see the best bucks go looking after the season.
 
Another thing that makes me wonder about how many big bucks survive in the thick timber is the success of Robb Wiley hunting the thick timber in Wyoming. The story of the Magnum buck that they took a couple of years ago portrays it quite well I think. Apparently, the buck lived in very thick cover and was only seen in a very small break in the timber a few times. The account of the harvest of that buck portrays it as a very risky stalk where it was so thick they couldn't locate the buck until they were right on top of him. I've hunted areas like that, and so far haven't had the skill to pull off a successful stalk in those kind of conditions. I don't believe there are many people who can, but Wiley seems to be an exception, and it is a big reason for his unmatched success in that area.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
Mbogo,

You said, "I certainly believe there are a few great deer that live in general units. However, when I see pictures of a giant I often wonder what he looked like the year before? With the right circumstances, I think a deer can put on an astonishing amount of inches from one year to the next."

Do you really think that a deer can go from just a good deer to something like this in one year- an honest question?

Picture of Mike Carter buck:


3718mikecarterbuck.jpg


Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
Yep. Deer can explode when the conditions are favorable. They can be stunted when things get stacked against them. Butt those 2 type of years together and deer that have finished skeletal development and you can get some giants that come out of nowhere. (And grow extras that weren't expressed in previous years).
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-15 AT 10:25PM (MST)[p]Wildman,
I guess that all depends on what you consider a "good" buck to be. I am not suggesting this guy's buck was a 160" 4x4 the year prior.
I am saying that I believe a 4 year old deer in a drought year that has the genetics to develop "kickers" or extras and has a mid-170s type frame with maybe a few bumps or short kickers can explode in ideal conditions the next year to something over 200" gross.
Of course, there are a lot of stars to align for something like this to happen. Just like they would have to for a 40" wide buck to make it through multiple seasons on a general unit.

Suppose this guy's deer was a great, 190" deer in a drought year and somehow he made it through. Do you believe he could put on that much with an extra year of maturation and ideal feed/mineral conditions?
Or do you think the difference between poor and ideal conditions is only something like 10 inches?

As far as living in thick cover and being incredibly smart, I don't think old mule deer bucks get enough credit. I hear people go on and on about how smart old whitetails are but I believe Muleys are just as cagey, if not more so.

Great topic by the way.
 
For four years running, my son and I hunted a monster buck with general archery tags. He was in an open unit and lived only a mile or so from a main road. But he knew were to hang out to be safe and he did so. We had some close encounters with him on several occasions, but he always seemed to "catch a break", or make one. The last year we saw him he had a white face and he was limping. I'm pretty sure he died of old age. I think there are deer like that in every unit, but their numbers are limited.
If you go into the area in the dark on opening morning of the hunt and sit and listen, you can easily figure out that the hunt has begun by the sights and the sounds. Big bucks learn quickly when to make themselves scarce. They survive by paying attention to what is going on around them!
 
In Utah I think there is a 200 inch buck in every unit.
A couple years ago there was a timely snow storm and a general unit produced a couple 200ers.
I recall a big old buck from my youth that was known about by everyone but no one every claimed to have seen him in the hunting season. In face I only know of 1 picture of Popeye in the velvet that wasn't on winter range.
those old cagey bucks are out there and if I know 1 thing about them it's they are smarter than me.
 
I live in WY but I used to hunt Idaho, Utah & Wyoming every year for more than a decade. Many of those years the biggest buck of the three would come from Utah. I know they are still there occasionally I will go to Ephriam's grave & check some old spots while I'm there. I would bet a dozen doughnuts there are about 20 200+ bucks on the Cache from the Idaho border to south of Blacksmith. (that is still general isn't it.)I lived to hunt big bucks. Know I more live to watch & enjoy them alive. (More people need to start doing that.) SE Idaho same thing. (I think Se Idaho may be better than WY right now.) In fact I am going to hunt Idaho this year for the first time in a long time. My family has some property there and there has been a 200+ in buck we have been watching the last few years. He might go 230 this year, It might be to much like shootin my dog but well see. Yes there are a some big bucks on Utah's general units. Or doughnuts on me.
 
Several years ago we watched and took pics on the winter range of a deer that was medium heavy with a couple short extras- maybe 2-3 inches long. Probably would have scored 160 or so, found him in late summer and was nothing short of huge. A good friend found him during the general season right after an early snow storm and was able to shoot him-- he ended up scoring around 230. The bucks antlers were the exact configuration except everything was longer wider and heavier- no doubt it was the same buck. Still can't believe that he put on that much mass and inches from one year to the next.
I truly believe that many of the truly huge bucks on general units go almost completely nocturnal. they hide up in heavy timber or high country rocky ledges where they are undisturbed. I also know of one buck that would be occasionally seen in high country during the summer but was no where to be found come fall.A hunter I know figured him out-- it seemed as soon as the archery hunters hit the hills he immediately went downhill into winter range. Nobody looking there until this kid figured him out. If they escape a couple years doing the same thing, they just keep doing it.
 
Great discussion guys. Nebo, I would love to have seen that buck that put on additional 70" of bone in a single year. That would be amazing if it was truly the same buck.

-Hawkeye-
 
Mbogo,

You said, "Suppose this guy's deer was a great, 190" deer in a drought year and somehow he made it through. Do you believe he could put on that much with an extra year of maturation and ideal feed/mineral conditions? Or do you think the difference between poor and ideal conditions is only something like 10 inches?"

I think the buck ended up being about 230 inches, so that would be about 40 inches in one year. Yeah, I think it's possible, but I think it's much more likely he was over 200 inches the year before and just added 20 to 30 inches the year he was harvested.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
littlebighorn,

You said, "If you go into the area in the dark on opening morning of the hunt and sit and listen, you can easily figure out that the hunt has begun by the sights and the sounds. Big bucks learn quickly when to make themselves scarce. They survive by paying attention to what is going on around them! "

I remember several years ago watching a big 'ol buck through my spotting scope about two miles away. I think it was the time between the end of the elk hunt and the beginning of the rifle hunt. It was quiet, and it felt like I was the only one on the mountain. I spotted the buck right at daylight hanging on the top of a ridge with thick timber to the west and a rock slide to the east. I figure he was very close to the 30 inch mark as a typical. He was grazing about 10 feet from the timber. There was a paved mountain road about two miles to the west, but it was quiet enough that you could hear a car if it drove by. About every ten minutes or so a car would drive by, and this 'ol buck who was two miles away from the road and ten feet from cover would stop and come to full attention every time one of those cars would go down the road. It really gave me some insight into how aware these deer are to their environment. It also helped me understand why deer I see a few days before the hunt are no longer there the opening morning of the hunt.

About three years ago, we decided to try a new area for the opening morning of the black powder hunt. At daylight we spotted two mature bucks- one quite a bit better than the other. They were across a very deep nasty canyon, so we decided to just watch them and see if we could pattern them a bit. I watched them until noon when they finally worked their way into the bottom of the canyon and out of sight. Thinking maybe it was a daily ritual, we came back a couple of days later and tried to get in place in case they were using the same pattern. But when we were finally able to spot them, they were about a mile back up the mountain in an area where there had been hunters opening morning. It was pretty obvious that the second area was where they spent most of their time, but the pressure of hunters on opening morning had pushed them down into the steeper part of the canyon. It appeared that there had been some very disappointed hunters on the other side of the canyon who likely had seen two good bucks in the area they were hunting, but somehow had bumped them. So, while the hunters were tromping around the mountain looking for the deer they had saw in that area the day before, the deer they were looking for were grazing peacefully down into the bottom of the steep canyon about a mile away.

I'm sure I've done the same thing a million times, but it made me realize just how important getting into an area undetected is. Those deer definitely knew when there was somebody around, and when there was, they dropped off into the steep country, but a few days later, if they pressure was gone, they were right back where they started.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
mtnrunner260

You said, "those old cagey bucks are out there and if I know 1 thing about them it's they are smarter than me."

I'm convinced there are some out there as well, but I'm not convinced there is a good way to hunt them. They seem to have all their bases covered- which is why they survive to get big. But just knowing they are there is enough to keep me dreaming at night and taking a crack at it every fall.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
That's my best guess for sure. Everything about his antler configuration was the same as the winter time pics-- somewhat crabby fronts, small extra's here and there etc. The area he was killed in fit in perfectly with where he wintered. Maybe he was bigger than I judged him on the winter range but not much. He almost looked stunted but just seemed to explode that year. I can't ever remember seeing any other bucks we have watched over the years add so much--
 
The short answer is NO. There are not giant bucks on general season, public lands.

With that as a starting point, I would inch a little from there to say that yes, every year, here in Utah, there is a 200" buck killed on a general season, public land hunt. And if you don't see it on FB, the DWR will write up a story about it so that the other 75,000 hunters who didn't get the giant will see that there was at least one out there.

There are a couple guys here on MM that seem to get it done on what I would call Great Bucks every year. They do it on general season tags, and on public ground. None of those bucks were 200" though (that I can remember).

The percentage of "monster muleys" on public land would probably be somewhere in the 0.01% range. :)

Makes them that much more special when a guy/gal finds one and harvests it.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
+1

"200 inches" gets thrown around pretty losely.

There are great bucks around. But to say every unit has a 200" deer is like saying every unit has a 400" bull. Probably a little exagerated.

Founder made that pretty clear last year in WY. What, you scouted some 200 different bucks last year and found 1 that you were question might go 200? And that's in the best general mule deer country in the world.
 
I scouted 14 days, saw over 350 different bucks. Did not count any twice. I really probably saw over 400 different bucks after hunting about 17 days too. I saw three bucks I thought might go over 190. One I don't know for sure, but I think he was in the mid-190's. The other two were killed. The one I measured at just barely over 190, but that was in full velvet. The other was 189-1/2 typical. Those were the best 3 bucks I saw.
350+ bucks and zero 200 Inchers. Only 1 that I could say confidently, would break 190.

In my opinion, they're VERY, VERY rare.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
Founder,

Did the heavy typical you posted pictures of get harvested. I remember arguing what he might score at the time and would be interested to know.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
Browning,

You said, " The short answer is NO. There are not giant bucks on general season, public lands.

With that as a starting point, I would inch a little from there to say that yes, every year, here in Utah, there is a 200" buck killed on a general season, public land hunt."

We know how many big bucks are killed on general season, public land hunts in Utah. Once they're dead, it's a lot easier to count them. But that wasn't the question. The question was if people think there are big bucks on general season, public land units in Utah which just never get seen. Of course, it's just an opinion, because it is hard to count things you can't see. But the fact that deer like the Mike Carter buck seem to show up out of nowhere would seem to indicate that there are. If the Carters hadn't located the buck, it's quite possible no one would have known he existed.

I am also basing my opinion upon the fact that I have seen some big deer which I haven't been able to harvest, but as near as I know, no one else has either. They show up year after year in some of the nastiest places you can find.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
Brian,

Do you hunt the same units as Robb Wiley?

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 
I filmed a fairly good buck last night and put it on my you tube channel. http;//youtu.be/VlyzMvwc_HA A few mule deer bucks lookin good early. I cant get it to here sorry. you will like it. All I do is look for big bucks last year I had found 14 that I call big.(years ago I would find a hundred) Big to me means mature and as big as that particular Buck can & will get. 5 years & older. Of those 14 I know 8 were killed for sure. And maybe 12 I only know of 2 that got away for sure. That is efficient hunting to efficient. Big bucks are going to get even harder to find. The buck I filmed tonight was in a place I used to call the buck pasture. I once saw 60 bucks there at one time. Tonight this was the only buck there. Great Buck, but Not good at all. If I am the one throwing around 200 inches loosly. I'm usually pretty accurate. But I would never put much money on it.
 
letmgetbig,

"Of those 14 I know 8 were killed for sure. And maybe 12 I only know of 2 that got away for sure"

There is no doubt that if bucks are hanging in areas where they are visible, they will more than likely be toast. It amazes me some of them survive as long as they do in easier accessed areas. It has been my experience that you have to do things that nobody else is doing- find a vantage point that is difficult to access. It's just numbers. If you are hunting the same areas everyone else are hunting, the odds of someone else seeing the buck and harvesting him before you do goes up significantly. Finding sleeper zones is very difficult, because there are a lot of very dedicated sportsman/women out there. But it has been my experience that they are out there. The draw back is that they tend to be areas that are difficult to hunt. But they are there.

I am at the point in life that I prefer to hunt in an area where there are big deer, but the hunting conditions are difficult. About every year I get to see a good buck- if only through the spotting scope. Knowing they are there makes it a challenge for me, and if I hunt the whole season and come home empty handed because the big boy is better at what he does than I am at what I do, I would rather do that than fight the crowds.

Wildman

"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
 

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