Big Corn

2

202typical

Long Time Member
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Yep wont be long before we here the libs on this forum complaining about Big Corn profits and how Big Corn is destroying the earth.



Study: Ethanol May Add to Global Warming

By H. JOSEF HEBERT ? 18 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) ? The widespread use of ethanol from corn could result in nearly twice the greenhouse gas emissions as the gasoline it would replace because of expected land-use changes, researchers concluded Thursday. The study challenges the rush to biofuels as a response to global warming.

The researchers said that past studies showing the benefits of ethanol in combating climate change have not taken into account almost certain changes in land use worldwide if ethanol from corn ? and in the future from other feedstocks such as switchgrass ? become a prized commodity.

"Using good cropland to expand biofuels will probably exacerbate global warming," concludes the study published in Science magazine.

The researchers said that farmers under economic pressure to produce biofuels will increasingly "plow up more forest or grasslands," releasing much of the carbon formerly stored in plants and soils through decomposition or fires. Globally, more grasslands and forests will be converted to growing the crops to replace the loss of grains when U.S. farmers convert land to biofuels, the study said.

The Renewable Fuels Association, which represents ethanol producers, called the researchers' view of land-use changes "simplistic" and said the study "fails to put the issue in context."

"Assigning the blame for rainforest deforestation and grassland conversion to agriculture solely on the renewable fuels industry ignores key factors that play a greater role," said Bob Dinneen, the association's president.

There has been a rush to developing biofuels, especially ethanol from corn and cellulosic feedstock such as switchgrass and wood chips, as a substitute for gasoline. President Bush signed energy legislation in December that mandates a six-fold increase in ethanol use as a fuel to 36 billion gallons a year by 2022, calling the requirement key to weaning the nation from imported oil.

The new "green" fuel, whether made from corn or other feedstocks, has been widely promoted ? both in Congress and by the White House ? as a key to combating global warming. Burning it produces less carbon dioxide, the leading greenhouse gas, than the fossil fuels it will replace.

During the recent congressional debate over energy legislation, lawmakers frequently cited estimates that corn-based ethanol produces 20 percent less greenhouse gases in production, transportation and use than gasoline, and that cellulosic ethanol has an even greater benefit of 70 percent less emissions.

The study released Thursday by researchers affiliated with Princeton University and a number of other institutions maintains that these analyses "were one-sided" and counted the carbon benefits of using land for biofuels but not the carbon costs of diverting land from its existing uses.

"The other studies missed a key factor that everyone agrees should have been included, the land use changes that actually are going to increase greenhouse gas emissions," said Tim Searchinger, a research scholar at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs and lead author of the study.

The study said that after taking into account expected worldwide land-use changes, corn-based ethanol, instead of reducing greenhouse gases by 20 percent, will increases it by 93 percent compared to using gasoline over a 30-year period. Biofuels from switchgrass, if they replace croplands and other carbon-absorbing lands, would result in 50 percent more greenhouse gas emissions, the researchers concluded.

Not all ethanol would be affected by the land-use changes, the study said.

"We should be focusing on our use of biofuels from waste products" such as garbage, which would not result in changes in agricultural land use, Searchinger said in an interview. "And you have to be careful how much you require. Use the right biofuels, but don't require too much too fast. Right now we're making almost exclusively the wrong biofuels."

The study included co-authors affiliated with Iowa State University, the Woods Hole Research Center and the Agricultural Conservation Economics. It was supported in part indirectly by a grants from NASA's Terrestrial Ecology Program, and by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Searchinger, in addition to his affiliation with Princeton, is a fellow at the Washington-based German Marshall Fund of the United States.

The study prompted a letter Thursday to President Bush and Democratic and Republican leaders in Congress from nearly a dozen scientists who urged them to pursue a policy "that ensures biofuels are not produced on productive forests, grassland or cropland."

"Some opportunities remain to produce environmentally beneficial biofuels" while "unsound biofuel policies could sacrifice tens of hundreds of million of acres" of grasslands and forests while increasing global warming, said the scientists, including four members of the National Academy of Sciences.




"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
I think we should irrigate some more desert lands and sage brush areas as they aren't productive for corn eh?

I'm having corn flakes for breakfast tomorrow.
I certainly was kiddin about the desert as some left headed senator or congressman would try to pass legislation to put it into effect.
driftersifter
 
Biofuel makes corn big $$$ which = big dollars for all ag products. bring it on
 
I do not make it a habit to chime in on the great Global Warming debate. I will comment on the likes of an idiot like (R) Imhoffe that omit, edit, or deny information to suit a political agenda.

The phenomena we call Global Warming is improperly titled, as such many are now referring to it properly as Global Climate Change. Given that other planets temps are rising I believe it is still difficult to draw direct corellations of man's impact.

Last years weather patterns did break long held records worldwide giving credence for more scientific study.

We do in essence live in a bubble, so strives to lessen man's impact will always be bonus.

Outside of biofuels, there are indeed many inherent ills that do come with a corn based food supply.
 
Corn based ethanol is a loser for everybody but those growing it. It is heavily subsidized and uses up alot of precious water, fuel and fertilzers (Which requires fossil fuels to produce).

Watch what happens to wildlife populations as millions of acres of CRP are converted back to crop land. If you haven't done a pheasant hunt in South Dakota plan it for this fall because these are going to be the good old days.

Nemont
 
" Biofuel makes corn big $$$ which = big dollars for all ag products. bring it on"
C'mon Dude you can't have it both ways my friend.

FTW we actually agree on something. Who'd a thunk it?



"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
Can't have it both ways? I only want it one way, my way.

High corn prices are great for ag and when ag makes a buck it goes right back into our economy. even if biofuel isn't real effecient it keeps the money at home rather than in some carpet pilot's pocket, we al win. if it helps the environment great , if it's a push so what.

Nemont so far there are no plans I've heard of to pull CRP acres out, the idea was to conserve land for our needs in the future and help the ag industry out by cutting back on surplus. as the ag department has said there are no shortages of anything in the US, yes prices are up some but nothing is out of supply. the enviro's are behind you on keeping CRP contracts in effect and so am I, maybe a dem president would save the bird hunting ?
 
Huntindude,

Actually we don't all win with corn ethanol. It uses almost as much fossil fuels, ie putting money still in Haji's pocket, as we get in energy return.

Regarding CRP there has been an increasing number of expiring acres not put back into the program. Look at the number of acres set to expire in the near future. What will farmers do especially if the current run up in commodity prices continues. CRP rental payments don't even come close to what these guys could get for either cash rents or farming it themselves. So not only are we going to subsidize corn based ethanol through tax credits and import tariffs we will pay more at our dinner table and watch as the bird hunting opportunities decline especially in the Dakotas. All the while not even putting a small dent in our continued consumption of fossil fuels.

I don't know whether CRP is a partisan issue. I know there are alot of Republican hunters who do not wish to see the CRP acres continue to shrink but it appears that CRP will be a much smaller program in the coming years.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2008/01/28/opinion/editorial/doc4793d25bb841d573935254.txt

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/11648236.html

Acres? coming out of CRP is nothing short of astounding

New federal figures show almost 420,000 acres of North Dakota Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) were converted to cropland in 2007. That's more than 12 percent of all CRP acres in that state. The conservation community expected extensive losses, but this is about double what was anticipated for this year.

This steady stream of lost habitat will mean significantly lower production of ducks that migrate through or winter in all of the contiguous 48 states and provide and an important part of the hunters? bags in those states. It will also impact pheasant populations and the local economies of the many small towns that hunters migrate to each fall in these prairie states.

Most of these losses can be traced back to strong commodity prices, driven by demand for corn and oilseeds for biofuel production and increasing world demand for commodities? especially from India and China. Unfortunately, with the new energy bill we don't see things changing anytime soon.


CRP Losses


US Department of Agriculture?s Farm Service Agency statistics show 16 North Dakota counties have CRP losses greater than 15 percent. Stutsman County had the highest loss with 65.3 square miles. Grand Forks County has the highest percentage loss at almost 33 percent. Burleigh County has lost 39.3 square miles or almost 25 percent of all CRP acres.


DU staff in the Great Plains has also been tracking the increasing habitat loss in the Prairie Pothole Region (PPR) and provided the following for SD and MT to add to the ND numbers.


South Dakota has lost 214,314 acres (14.3%) of CRP since Sept. 30, 2007. Unlike ND, this is actually 58,037 acres less than what we had initially projected. FSA estimates that SD will have another 528,694 acres (35.1%) expiring from 2008-2010.


Montana has lost 159,961 acres (4.6%) of CRP since Sept. 30, 2007. This is actually 51,152 acres more than what we had initially projected. FSA estimates that MT will have another 906,669 acres (30%) expiring from 2008-2010.


One might ask whether these acres were being replaced by new sign-ups? The answer is no. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) has not held a general sign-up for some time and will not likely in the near future. Some acres are being slowly added under the continuous signup program however these acres are small compared to the losses.


The number of CRP acres going back into crop production further emphasizes the need for a strong Sodsaver in the 2007 Farm Bill. When added to the losses of native grassland over the past 5 years the need for taking incentives away to crop these previously restored wildlife areas is painfully clear.


Native Prairie Losses

The Dakotas and Montana have lost 502,000 acres of native prairie since 2002.......63,868 acres in 2007 alone.


A strong Sodsaver provision in the Farm Bill would do this, depending on whether any teeth remain after the House and Senate bills come out of conference later this winter
 
> High corn prices are great
>for ag and when ag
>makes a buck it goes
>right back into our economy.


It's not good for dairymen and beef producers. More cropland going to bio fuels instead of feed = higher feed prices. Please indulge..... I know you have a awnser ready :)
 
As usual Dude, partly wrong info! Big dollars for SOME ag producers and massive losses for others is the correct reply. Try buying corn for feedlots to fatten cattle! Try buying hay, barley, wheat, oats and any other feed for livestock. As corn prices increased the result was felt across the board as folks made the demand for all feed go up. I have bought feeder hay for my cattle for $75.00 to $90.00 per ton for the past 5 years. This year hay started at $130.00 and is now above $150.00. You all will see that at the market when you buy steaks. So even though some agriculture producers are getting good prices, a lot of others are feeling the pinch. And the kicker is, some corn was bought by oil companies and sent to brazil as feed so they could limit ethanol production and it's competion with fossil fuels. Guess what happen to that corn? It gets imported as beef from brazil and argentina to compete with our ranchers and lower the price we can get. Ethanol is not the answer, especially corn ethanol!
 
Hey I said I was a republican so the most important thing in this equation is me. I'm supposed to cry because food is up to 50% of what it should be?

The price of commodities is do IN PART to ethanol production, much of it is increased world demand due to increased wealth in countries like China and also due to drought and other factors in Australia and elsewhere. the price of all ag products has been too low for too long, just because you want to buy hay for $90 doesn't mean the guy growing it can make a buck at that, it just means he couldn't do any better. I'm selling test hay to dairys for $175 and they have no problem with it because milk prices are way up, no need for tears there. cattlemen are feeling a little pain but so what, prices have been good for longer than I can remember and the price will come up, give it a little time if you don't understand that you haven't been a cattleman for as long as my family, again no need for tears.

Much of the CRP acres in Oregon are crap ground that if it does come out as soon as prices dip and they will they'll go back in. remember habitat is a benifit of CRP not the reason for it, if the owner wants to farm his land once his contract is up that's his right.

Nemont if you're right about it taking more energy than it produces in ethanol production that's fine, we're just getting started and the crops we're using were never bred for that purpose. in time we'll come up with more productive crops that will make it a positive product, you have to start somewhere and at least we're trying.
 
Dude the test hay "alfalfa" that your selling to dairymen only makes up a small percentege of the feed rations they are fed each day. Its an ingredient just like cotton seed or almond hulls. The main base of the ration is either CORN silage or OAT silage, which are grown on the same piece of land. Competition from farmers now using that land to grow bio fuel crops have driven the dairymans main feed cost's sky high. Not to mention the fact that they already could'nt afford to buy it unless it was within 15 miles of the dairy because of the high fuel cost to truck it.

The dairymen are happy to pay your prices because its one of there cheaper costs...At the moment.

Dude, for a guy who usually proclaims himself as "seeing it from all angles", I feel your missing the boat on this one. Bio fuels are a good idea and I'm not arguing that, but taking AGRICULTURE land out of AG production and turning it into ENERGY PRODUCTION is not good for the rest of agriculture.

Other avenues should be explored before we TOTALY destroy our agriculture industry at the expense of cheaper fuel and become totaly dependent on foreign food.

Trading foreign dependence for energy for foreign dependence on food is just not right. There's no going back once the concrete is poured.
 
What are you talking about? the dairymen are the least whiny I've seen them in years, they're making money. the old saying is it's not what a thing cost it's what it pays.

ANYTHING that uses ag products is good for ag, this happened fast and a few things like cattle will catch up give it time.

What part of prices were too low don't some people get? the grain producers and most other segments were just about broke, this is where prices needed to be in the first place. if you don't understand that you don't understand agrinomics at all.

For the first time since the 70's ag looks bright, cry all you want the vast majority of us are very very happy. where were you when ag was on the brink of disaster and China was killing us with cheap imports? you don't want your kids playing with Chinese toys but you let them scarf down who knows what from the land of lead because it's cheap.

Aren't we capitolist? why can't we cash in on demand just like the rag heads are on oil? just because you expect cheap food doesn't mean you're intitled to it. don't fret I'm a 3rd generation farmer/rancher and I can promise you ag won't ride high for that long it never does, before long oversupply will glut the market and farmers will be back to broke and you can breath easy.
 
The impact of lost acreage here is not as huge as some think. TONS of acreage will be set aside in other countries to supply the demand. In Mexico and elsewhere, contracts have already begun to be drafted. There will be a lot of dissapointed farmers who invested all their eggs into this basket.

4678aec03a21ae00.jpg
 
I really don't care what a farmer does with his or her own land. My point is that corn ethanol is not a boon for everyone and the people it will hurt the most are those who like to hunt wild pheasants. Perhaps that is a small price to pay.

CRP acres are necessarily easy to put back into the program once they are removed. First they have to qualify then the FSA has accept your bid etc, etc and the percent per county enrolled may already have been used up by other producers. It isn't a slam dunk.

We are all capitalist and therefore I would like to see ethanol sink or swim without tariff's on imported ethanol and the tax payer subsidizing each gallon of ethanol produced.

I come from a family in the agriculture business as does my wife. Yes times are good and they have next years profit locked in as well but the price will come down as more acres are brought into production.

I am all for energy independence and research into alternative fuels but federal dollars should be plowed into research rather then spent on subsidizing ethanol.

Nemont
 
Dude I am proudly a 5th generation rancher who doesnt appreciate a liberal telling me to quit crying. I was raising cattle when you were sucking your cow. I am fully aware of the cattle market and the price of grain and how much it takes to put food on the table. I also know how hard I work to stay in the cattle buisness. Diesel, power and everything else that it takes to run a ranch is skyrocketing and even though prices for calves are up, not too many folks are breaking the bank. As usual though, you know everything and can't listen to anything anyone that doesn't goose step with you libs says. Why don't you try listening now and again. You might learn something but i doubt it. I suspect you don't know come here from sic' em about anything remotely associated with farming or ranching. I'd wager you talk a good game and thats it. And your talking game isn't too good either. And if you are truly from an agriculture background, your grand-dad must be so proud that you've become such a micheal moore disciple. The huge majority of ag folks are died in the wool CONSERVATIVES.
 
Even without ethanol commodities would be short and prices up, ethanol isn't as big of factor as most people think but it is a factor. I don't personally know one farmer with 1 cent invested into anything to do with ethanol so for most of us it's just another demand side benifit but not an investment.

I don't feel ethanol is the answer myself but it's such a small part of the picture it's not going to hurt anything. hydrogen is probably where we should be looking with clean oil from coal and nuclear plants for the the present time. what has this administration done to promote that or anything else? new leadership might help on that front.

Over production wll bring prices down on commodities you're right, that's supply and demand and ag should be allowed to enjoy what few high points it gets just like every other business.
 
Chef, says other country will step up and provide our groceries. Waaa hoo! China is already killing us with lead and now you want mexican imports too. When our food is coming in instead of being grown here, we will be at the mercy of however. We are an independent nation and have to provide for ourselves. But that aint the liberal way is it. Grandpa used to say that the world was going to hell in a handbasket, but it think were on a much faster pace than that. It'll be a sad day in American history when we as a nation cannot feed ourselves! When you plant houses thats your last crop. For animal habitat, for open spaces and for self reliance. When the U.N. and the libs get thier way we'll all be members of a welfare state and i just wonder who's gonna pay the bills. Capitolism inst perfect but it beats handouts everytime. The free market rewards indivduals who WORK and have energy. Here's hoping you all have food on the table and the freedom to shoot for the stars without somebody or some entity telling you that you don't know whats best and they do. Welcome to 2009!
 
Again 202/bigbuttchaser comes in with personal attacks and nothing to add to the debate.

I make my living off ag as my father and his father did, if you have a steer and a donkey good for you but I don't need some all hat no cows cowboy telling me about ag. what few points other than personal attacks you've made tell me you know nothing. I'm a member of our grazing association chairman of the local irrigation district and know most every farmer in the tri county area, we're all happy about the prospects. stick your pants inside your boots put on your chinks and jinglebobs and your stupid boss hog Texas no cows cowboy hat and head down to the drug store cowboy corner cafe where you can swap stories about the time you rode a horse at the dude ranch. avoid any conversation related to ag or you'll look silly even in that crowd.

If you do happen to know a cattleman he should know the market will catch up, high feed and low cattle is the way it works, high cattle and low feed are the way it's been for some time, it will change this isn't an instant gratification industry, never has been .
 
This is a total waste of my time, but here goes. Dude, you are a total know-it-all, never-was, jackass! You are the president of the local cattlemens assc.! What, hitler was busy? If you are a cattleman then I need to switch occupations as soon as possible. You are the champions of personal attacks! That is your intire blowhard, no-facts having, rant and rave and rant some more attitude. You back me into a corner with your broadside shots and excpect me to meekly act like it's cool? But i am done with you and your logic. Life is too dang short to spend it argueing with you. I'd rather visit with my kids or ride some colts or basically anything else in my life. That's right, I have a life and maybe you oughta try getting one. So argue with someboby else. I'll stick to checking out great deer and elk and to hell with politics. You stick to making up stories, crucifying all who disagree with your illogical rants, lying about people and yourself, and spending all your time online. I'll bet you are the "DUDE" in the Brad Paisley song "online"! You are just like a dog standing in the manger barking at the cattle to keep them from feeding. I would love to see you climb in the corral, puppy! So get back to being an important POS and be happy knowing i won't be reading your B.S. I guess 202 is on his own now but he oughta handle you pretty easily. And Dude, you WOULDNT MAKE A PIMPLE ON A REAL COWMANS ASS!
 
Big wheat is also bad. Wheat farmers are spewing diesel fumes, dust and chaff across the globe causing any global warming that may be happening. They are killing our kids with white flour and don't even care.


Ransom
 
I dont know if Chef was refering to food or ethanol contracts, but it's pretty simple. You take prime ag land outa food based production and convert it to energy you create higher demand for USA grown food. That increases prices which in turn drives further demand for a foreign food supply to reduce cost. Average people cant afford filling there gas tank, now you want to create a foreign dependence for our food in trade. Sorry dude, this is the tip of the iceberg that will lead us to still having high fuel prices and a foreign dependency on food.

Add all of this to the fact that thousands of acres of prime farmland are taken every day for development. The population is growing, farmland is being lost and ethanol is increasing this problem. Pretty soon you'll be outa buisness dude, if you have a cow, calf operation the feedlots will not be able to purchase your feeders because they will be to expensive to feed out. Compounded by the fact that your cost of buisness will increase requiring you to demand a higher price for your calves to stay in buisness. Pretty soon people will learn to live without beef.....Its upsetting the somewhat of a balance that we have now.....Its all down hill from here.
 
Using prime farm land to grow "fuel" for our SUVs just seems wrong to me. We might need that land some day. I think Hardway is correct.

Eel
 
202/bigbuttchaser, is the 202 half of you done with me as well? please say yes and you made my day.

Hardway we are in no way even close to having a shortage of food or land to grow it on. if needed we could cut back exports to feed ourselves, Nixon did it in the 70's. over production has been the downfall of ag for years the only thing that has changed is a weak dollar making our products cheaper on the world market and short crops in other countries, ethanol is not the main reason for higher prices just a part of it. there has never been in modern history a shortage of food in the world, just a shortage of dollars. while our government was paying us not to produce to reduce over production people in Africa and elsewhere were starving, again due to lack of money not food.

I'm not saying you were one but we had a bunch of whiners kabichin about farm subsidies a few months ago, now they're sniveling because the farmer is making a buck on world demand using our capitolist American system. the same people who defend oil companies rights to their mega profits resent the American farmer getting out of the poor house for a little while, we're making money and we're going to enjoy it for as long as we can, you're not going to stop it and you're not going to go hungry. the market will take care of it and prices will drop don't worry, then everyone can gripe about subsidies again.
 
The land I farm has been farmed for almost 100 years, it doesn't go away if you use it and it's classed as HEL.

There is no prime farm ground in CRP if that's what you mean it doesn't pay enough, it's dry land or scrub ground. hard to say if the high prices will last long enough to get guys to till it up when their contracts run out or not, even if they do they'll be more than willing to reup it when prices drop. even when prices drop you're going to think they're high so get used to it, 300% increases in fuel, transportation and fertilizer mean the end of dirt cheap commodities anyway. what was considered high is now unprofitable, times have changed.
 
Alright dude, you win. We dont all live in Or, and you dont live here. I'm tired of you spouting off about how all farmers have it good and you know excactly what they are going through. I dont live in Or, but maybe I should. Sounds like you guys have it great up there.No matter what anyone say's you argue and twist it into whatever you want to tell yourself.

Sure you are'nt a lawyer?
 
You guys are a riot, farm prices are the best they've been in years and you're trying to tell me ag is in trouble? anyone other than a guy who's 100% cattle or in a natural disaster area should be doing well I don't care where you are, and the cattlemen will get their day just wait as herds are sold down so goes down the supply. dairys are doing well where's the problem area? these are the good old days if you can't make it now you deserve to go broke.

Tell me more about how bad ag producers have it and I'll just count my money and cry with you if that's how you want it.

I'm done here until someone makes a valid thought out argument telling me why things are so bad, I'll just spend the time I'd waste here deciding what to buy for depreciation this year.
 
HD,

My arguement is confined strictly to corn ethanol. I don't question whether or not you farm and ranch, I don't care if you plant your place from fence post to fence post. I am happy farmers are getting paid because in my part of the world ag is king. As farmers go so goes the economy and we are looking pretty bright at least into that next 12 months with these guys locking in contracts for wheat that will guarantee a continue increase in revenue.

Corn ethanol is bad for wildlife and bad for the environment, period.

Also I don't whine about the farm bill.

Let me ask you this question have you hunted some of the vast CRP fields in South Dakota, North Dakota and Montana for wild birds? Many of those fields are getting torn up. In addition you may want to read the CRP provisions in the law past the current contract period.

These are the good old for hunting upland birds especially pheasants and the bad part is we haven't even put a dent in the demand for foreign oil.

I am happy that ag people are making money and I hope these prices stay up for a long time but it doesn't mean I have to like the inefficient use of food products to make corn ethanol. Now switch grass ethanol is an entirely different matter.

How come you love the market forces to fix ag but hate to use the market forces to fix other parts of the economy?

Nemont
 
Nemont as usual you're one of the few with valid points.

Corn based ethanol is not the answer, what I'm saying is we'll breed crops for ethanol production better than switch grass but it won't happen over night, it took years to get our food crops where they are you have to allow more than 6 months to perfect fuel crops. corn is just what we have to start off with, it requires too much nitrogen and the yeild is too low for long term use.

I'm an avid bird hunter and I agree with you 100% that CRP is a good program, but remember world demand has as much if not more to do with this than ethanol and these are ag lands we're talking about. if the market warrants it the producer may put them back in production, world over population and improved economys around the world may be more at fault than ethanol production.

Where did I say I'm against market forces in other parts of the economy? if you're refering to my take on big oil that is a little different than ag inividual ag producers at last being able to pay bills and show a profit, besides just as Nixon did in the 70's history has shown our government WILL step in when the food supply gets tight and ban expoprts. that cost farmers millions as grain prices dropped over night, I'd like to see anyone step in front of big oils profit. if our ag profits ever approach those of big oil I'd feel like maybe we're getting greedy, but unlike the oil industry windfalls the government will never allow that to happen with food. let the farmer have his day, the oil companies will still be recording record profits long after the farmer is back to trying to make ends meet.

All I said was big oil was greedy and hurting our economy, just like Bill O'Riley says I'd like to see them back the price off to the level they can make a super profit but not an absurd one. I don't thing we can or should force them to do it, just ask.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-08 AT 12:01PM (MST)[p]http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

I was refering to the thread on health care solutions not big oil when I asked about market forces.

I agree world demand is high and most likely will continue to be high but if Australia and Argentina have average crops and the U.S. produces a record harvest the price will plummet as happended in the 70's and by alot of good mature cover would have been turned over. It has taken quite a few years of CRP to produce the record numbers of birds we have seen the past couple of years.

I also question whether the use of crop land to produce fuel is the wises uses of that crop land. The American farmer can feed the world but I am unsure if he can fuel our cars. Much more could be done to curb demand for gasoline and increase efficiency beyond what we do today.

Also a recession or depression in the U.S. will curb world demand for nearly every commodity. Look at the current record inventory of gasoline and a prediction of a 50 cent a gallon decrease in price due to reduced demand in for gas in this country.

I want us to be able to tell Haji to stick his oil up is
@$$ but I don't know that ethanol can ever replace oil as it is today. I hold out hope to Hydrogen fuel cells and other technologies that are being developed. I see no sense in the HUGE subsidy corn based ethanol currently enjoys. 22% of the corn crop will be dedicated to ethanol production.

Nemont
 
What Nemont said.
As usual Dude you are WRONG.
If my memory serves me right isn't Dude the one always complaining about how we look to the rest of the world. Yea I am positive I could go back and archive, OH, say 100 diferent post where Dude has anguished over our standing with the resyt of the world and how we a viewed. Am I right? Please someone correct me.
Which brings me to this. Wait until this country drives up the price of corn so high the rest of the world acn not afford it. Dude you think the world hates us now! We start taking away their food as well as their oil. Yea Alquida aint got jack on what the rest of the world will do when/if this happens.
Someone above said hypocrite and Dude it fits.



"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
In this case Dude may be right. The corn that is used for ethanol does have by products that are very useful. One is dry distillers grains that are used for cattle feed. Another is wet distillers grain again used for cattle feed. dry ice is another by product of ethanol. We are discovering new by products as the industry grows. Some of you act like once land is committed to growing corn for ethanol it isn't able to grow something else like the land is contaminated. I raise corn and soybeans as well as cattle and hunt pheasants and ruffed grouse. Some CRP ground is very suitable for grain cropping but much of it is not and will become hay ground or pasture or continue in CRP. That is left up to the individual producer and the county commision.
I warned on here a month or so ago to get your groceries now as things are going to get real expensive and soon.
Driftersifter
 
How much fossil fuels are needs to produce a gallon of ethanol? The byproducts are nice but if the conversion of corn to ethanol were such a great deal then why does the industry need to be subsidized?
 
They needed incentives to help them take the risk no different than the incentives big oil was paid to explore difficult terrain in search of oil.
Driftersifter
 
Okay...a little different in that oil is a proven energy source. Also I don't agree with susidizing oil either.

There is a current glut of ethanol and price is going down yet there is no delivery system. I can't understand why guys who hate Exxon making "obscene" profits have no problem with Cargill and ADM getting handed BILLIONS for corn ethanol?

Nemont
 
C'mon now Nemont. You know as well as I do it is all about the hypocracy. They want their cake and eat it too.
Its trendy to knock on big oil. These sheep that let themselves be lead around by the dominant liberal press can not think for themselves.
Ethanol is not the answer.
Besides the cost of a sack of deer corn is getting outrageous!


"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
My corn isn't sold to either Cargill Or ADM my corn is sold to a locally owned by many farmers distillery.
Driftersifter
 
Ethanol isn't a proven energy source? The first countries not to be recieving food would be the same countries that are gouging us with the oil prices as they have for the last 10 years. I would be very selective about food subsidies overseas.
Driftersifter
 
Ethanol is not a proven massed produced fuel in America is the qualifer. Brazil has climbed the ethanol mountain and has a very robust ethanol industry. Of course they only had to slash and burn the rain forest and grow sugar cane to do it but they do have a thriving ethanol industry.

Also if you don't believe Cargill and ADM are making BILLIONS off of corn ethanol then I don't know what to tell. They have been handed huge amounts of taxpayer money to make ethanol as well.

Nemont
 
Cargill and ADM are making millions off the increase in the price of grains just as many farmers are making money off the increase in the price of grains. How exactly is that wrong?
Driftersifter
 
I have no problem with them making a profit. I think it is funny that the same people who are mad that Exxon is making record profits based on record prices for oil have not problem with ADM and Cargill making record profits.

So as long as it only benefits farmers then screw the public and take as much as you can but everyone else is supposed to reduce their profit margins and not be greedy.

http://zfacts.com/p/807.html

I think I stated pretty clearly that I am happy farmers are making money and that I hope they keep making money. I just think it is funny that people who hate corporation greed turn their eyes the other way when that "greed" helps their own personal bottom line. Doesn't matter if you are a liberal or conservative, if something is good for your own personal wallet then it is okay but if someone dares take anything out of that wallet they are greedy ba@tard@.

Ethanol from corn is bad: for the consumer, for wildlife, for water resources, for the government and utlimately it will be bad for farmers.

Nemont
 
You guys can argue all you want about ethanol from grain. Not one of you has mentioned that the future of ethanol production is not going to be from grains. The media has missed that one as well. It will be from any cellulose based product. Most likely it will be from grasses bred especially to produce biomass. The net energy gain from cellulosic ethanol is about 15 times that of grain produced ethanol. There appears to be potential to produce ethanol and biodiesel from blue green algae as well.

BeanMan
 
Beanman I did hit on that, but with 202's constant jabbering it was easy to miss. you're right we're only using corn because it's available today. give it a little time guys, this project is just getting started you can't base the future on something that's just getting off the ground.

Nobody anywhere in the world is starving because of ethanol production and I doubt they will. we have had starving people long before ethanol production was even an idea in this nation, don't blame ethanol for what we're already ignoring.
 
Fred,

Get a jump start on this product and later you can change your name to CORNMAN...THE GREAT. Just joking you Fred.

Brian
 
I don't remember anyone saying people are starving. Take a look at the current ethanol industry. They are currently recieving a large subsidy that will continue to get larger. Cellulosic ethanol is less the 1% of ethanol production in the U.S.

Farmers are the primary investors in alot of ethanol plants and those plants are designed to produce grain ethanol. Those plants cannot process cellulosic ethanol. It is a bad investment by farmers in old technology that wouldn't survive without a government subsidy. The government should be investing the money that is going into grain ethanol subsidies into cellulosic ethanol research and development.

Also you may want to look at where the majority of the federal dollars spent on the subsidy goes. Then explain why it is obscene for big oil to screw us but perfectly fine for big ag to feed at the trough.

Again I don't really care but I find it funny that people appalled by oil companies making record money, when the commodity they trade in is at all time high, use the exact same arguement when they are making record profits.

Nemont
 
I don't think I have complained about the price of fuel, as I know that it indirectly helps the price of corn and soybeans. Now before you go wild on how much I'm making you should be aware of the capital investment involved to grow a decent crop. Are you willing to borrow 100,000 to net 30-50,000 if there isn't a drought? In the old days that same 100,000 would net you 15-25,000 worrying about every hail storm and rain event too much too little too hard too late. I know its my choice. Its your choice to eat the quality crops I grow. Or look at eating something grown in another country. Free enterprise isn't exactly free. You should also know in the drought of 88 and 96 and 05 I lost money and was in the hole 40,000. Makes it hard to sleep at night. I never even got into machinery invest ment or land investment.
Driftersifter
 
To say farmers are making a huge profit is a joke, how many farmers are in the market for a new Leer? if they can just catch up on some debt that's what they call a great profit. the thing about ethanol is if the farmer does make any money it will stay right here in our economy with jobs and capitol investment, isn't that better than oil dollars going to Iran and Dubai?

If ethanol proves not economically feasible and farmers lose their investment then so be it, nobody tells other industries what they can invest in. the tax dollars involved are peanuts in the big picture if that's your concern, the prospects for future energy development are worth every penny so far.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-08 AT 11:53AM (MST)[p]You both sound like just about every farmer I know. Trust me I deal with ag producers every day. They make up at least 50% of my business. I tell all the same joke about the difference between farmers and an F16?

The F16 quits whining when you shut it down.

On one hand you say you don't complain about the price of fuel yet gripe about input costs and risking capital. Who told you to risk your money?

If life is so bad because of drought, input costs, difficulty with the elevators, cost of transportation, the government, imported food; what ever the days gripe is that you picked up down at the coffee clutch with all the other farmers why do you continue to throw good money after bad?

Huntindude,

So it is okay for tax dollars to flow to Multinational Corps. as long as the crops are grown here? Even if the dollars go offshore to produce cheaper food to import and keep the cost of food down domestically?

While ag. producers are not shopping for new Leer Jets they are sure looking for new equipment to stash some cash to take depreciation on. Why are they so worried about paying taxes if they aren't making money? Kind of an interesting thought process to have to spend more money to save money but you really aren't making money.

This thread is about corn ethanol and I understand you both have a vested interest in making sure the commodities you sell remain high priced. Corn ethanol is a bad investment for farmers, the tax payers, the wildlife, the water quality, etc.

I live in an area that the economy is probably 85% agriculture and I grew up farming and ranching. My family and my wife's family both remaining on the family farms and ranches, My wife's family has been in the same family for over 100 years. I understand what it takes to farm and ranch. I speak the same language as these guys around here. I do business with them, I hunt with them, I coach their kids, etc.

I want them to make money also. I don't want to see South Dakota and North Dakota and Eastern Montana CRP torn up, and it is happening as contracts expire because of a misguided notion that we can grow enough fuel to end our addiction to oil. If there was even a small dent in oil demand in the forseeable future I wouldn't be so opposed to corn ethanol but there is no end to our appetite for oil.

Nemont
 
I don't believe there was any whine in my reply i just stated facts and asked the question on would you risk that much money? My answer from you I guess is No if you told me your f16 joke you might lose 1% of your buisness depending upon my mood at the time or if I really needed your product. I think you are more concerned with the almighty phesant hunting you have enjoyed on someone elses property these last few years and now that is threatened. We aren't going to grow enough fueul raising corn and beans but we are making an attempt at reducing our dependence on off shore oil. I respect your opinions on this topic NEmont and do think we would have a very enjoyable day hunting birds or stretching our line on some big trout or walleye. I have read many of your other post and agree with you on most not this idea however. I think we will both share a concern over the shortage of beef that will develop in a year to 18 months over the price of corn.
Driftersifter
P.S. I am a teacher first a farmer second also I referee football, basketball softball and baseball I also coach basketball.
 
Nemont I'm not sure if the CRP in all cases is great for game birds, I'm sure you must think it is in your area but here in eastern Oregon the bird hunting was better before CRP. now where there used to be grain fields and stubble there is just native grass that seldom gets over a foot tall and provides little feed for birds. where I used to hunt pheasant, quail, chuckar and huns pretty much all that's left now is chuckar and they're not as plentiful as they were. I'm not a waterfowl hunter but the ducks and geese don't use the CRP at all but the grain fields are full of them. I'm just saying it isn't all bad for everyone.
 
HD,

Out here you have CRP right next to grain fields. Also while ducks and geese don't feed in CRP as a rule they sure nest in it especially pintails.

Pheasants like CRP cover but the birds that have thrived in CRP is Sharptails and huns. We have record numbers of huns and sharpies. The pheasants love where CRP is close to food sources. The areas I like to target are CRP fields next to corn or barley fields with a cattail slough somewhere nearby.

Have you been to South Dakota to see how pheasants like CRP fields there? 10 Million birds in South Dakota last year!!!

Nemont
 
I have hunted SD several times but I feel Eastern Montana beat it in numbers and fewer hunters with birds that don't get up 75 yards in front of the hunters. I love the cattails slough when there is snow in the air. The birds come in like ducks to a pond wonderful shooting great dog work to follow.
Driftersifter
 
Actually I agree with Dude as a far as giving ethanol a chance. It's not practical now but with new technology it might be a viable alternative to oil.
There is also another biofuel that might be even better called Algae Butanol made with solar energy that might be part of the answer.
"Big Oil" is another matter. Nobody here likes paying high fuel bills. The problem is that our oil companies pump so many barrels of oil a day based on demand and price. When the price per barrel reached historic heights the oil companies cashed in. Like I said before you should own oil stocks Dude, you might be a little more mellow if you did. Big dividends are being payed.


Ransom
 
Agreeing with me shows you're making progress Ransom.

Nemont your natural cover must be better than the cheat and bunch grass we have, the pheasant just can't do well in it. I haven't ever hunted pheasant back there but it looks unreal, most of the shows I've seen they do the blocker/drive type hunt which looks fun but I'd rather hunt my two GSP's and let them point, besides they're like my kids I have to let them have fun too. one of these days when I don't draw any decent tags I'm going to take a road trip back there and do some serious hunting. I wish there was a list of trespass fee places to go, I would much rather do that than go knocking on doors. I get it done to me all the time by goose hunters and it gets old , most of the time with out of state plates I'd probably get shot at anyway.
 

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