Big battered horns

gznokes · Mar 6, 2012

I was looking at the line up of rams that SWGO posted and thougth I'd ask a random question to some of you die hard sheep guys.

Have you noticed patterns in different sheep populations having more chipped and battered horns or is it just the type of thing that can happen occassionally to any ram--especially as they age?

For example, are there certain sheep units where it is more common to find rams with chipped and battered horns than others? Is it because of genetics, diet, terrain, # of other rams availble for competitive rutting?

To me it seems to happen more in desert sheep and Rocky/California BHS that live in desert climates. I don't seem to see it as much w dall or stones. I could be totally off.

Again, those are great sheep!

downsouth · Mar 7, 2012

I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe that in some areas sinisitus in the rams can cause the horns to chip up excessively like you are describing. Definitely gives them some character.

littlebighorn · Mar 8, 2012

I have wondered the same thing and have been hoping that southwestern, greatwestern, shadowhunter, zeke, or others with more expertise that me would chime in.
As a causal observer, it appears to be more prevalent in certain locations, like the deserts of California, but you can see chipped up old rams in lots of places. It would be my guess that many factors, including genetics, habitat, climate, age, health, etc. could all play a role. Disease, maybe, but from what I have read, sinusitis is often fatal in desert sheep, so I don't know about that either.
At any rate, I too would love to hear from some of the experts.

Zeke · Mar 8, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-12 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]LOL... me? an expert? My only claim to fame is my love for wild sheep and the country they call home.

I too, as a casual observer, have seen specific populations which appear to broom, chip, flare, curl or droop etc more than others. I suppose all of the factors mentioned by you guys comes into play. The older rams usually show more signs of weather and wear.

I think for horn conformation (shape) and size it has more to do with genetics. Whereas weathered and chipped horn have been more affected because of population dynamics and environment.

As usual, just my 2 cents,
Zeke

Edit: damnmyspelling

Adventurewriter · Mar 9, 2012

I would think that those horns "cooked" in the desert heat would be more brittle than others in a moister enviroment

greatwestern · Mar 9, 2012

Hey now LBH, don't go lumpin' me into some panel of 'experts'...now I'm embarrassed

Well, OK...reading everyone's responses, I would agree that there are some valid points made. My own observations tell me that the amount of damage present in a particular ram's horns have more to do with his individual attitude than anything else. Some rams are very scrappy, others are not...the more a ram cracks heads, the more likely he is to break his horns. Though I do agree that rams in the climates of the SW with its great extremes of temperature variation and moisture levels could verily lead to a more brittle horn material, which might break more readily under the impact of knockin heads. Perhaps this is why we don't see quite the same instance of horn damage in Northern rams, where the cooler, wetter climate might lend itself to greater horn elasticity.

I've seen several 'arrogant' rams with small horns go as far as to break one side off over the years (I've put some photos up of one or two of them on here before)...and I've followed a couple exceptionally large 'dispersal' type rams that I've never seen butt heads once, even while actively rutting ewes. They always remained uncontested by their fellows. The 'Goliath' ram I've posted pics here as well was a supreme example; very clean horns, and still hadn't broomed of his right lamb tip by the time he was killed, despite being 10 years old.

Sinusitus is kind of a different deal, with a few tell-tale indications of such (shed outer layer of the ouside facet of horn, revealing the dark discoloration of the infected core); but it would also probably definitely predispose an affected ram's horns to further damage upon impacts.

Anyway, certainly an interesting question!

littlebighorn · Mar 10, 2012

Hummm???
That sounds seriously "informed" in my book!!! Thanks GW!
Love to hear from any others.

BCBOY · Mar 10, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-12 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]Some good responses. I will add a few of my thoughts and I'll also say I ain't no sheep expert. I believe in areas where heavy predation occurs, you'll see alot of heavy brooming to help them increase their line of sight. This is especially important if they live in timbered terrain with wolves and lions. When it comes to fighting breaks and chips, I believe ram to ewe ratios play a huge role. More rams fighting over the same ewe means more aggressive battles.

m1fan · Mar 11, 2012

My guy had chips, splintering, and shedding at the tips. Came from the Clark/Kingston unit in So. Cal. last year.

bighornhunter · Mar 11, 2012

I am no real expert either but I think some sheep populations are more susceptible to cracking or spitting horns than others. I speculate that diet is a large factor in how easy horns break or chip. Sheep horn are made up of keratin (the same material your finger nails are made of) and proteins. Keratin can eventually become brittle if lacking enough protein or the essential vitamins and minerals. Also environmental temperature and moisture may cause the keratin to dry out, lessening the structural integrity of the horns. With this being said I would speculate that you would see more desert sheep especially those in extreme arid environments to have broken or scared head gear like the ones SWGO posted.
I also think genetics and herd behaviors play important roles.
That is just my two cents.

gznokes · Mar 13, 2012

BCBoy, I'd never thought of the idea of increasing line of sight based on brooming. Interesting idea.

I'm glad I asked this question

CAelknuts · Mar 14, 2012

All those SGWO rams are California Nelson's Desert rams. There are no trees where those sheep were taken, except in the San Gorgonio wilderness, so while the plausidle predator theory advanced by BCboy makes a lot of sense for British Columbia sheep, it does not factor in for Desert Sheep.

I spent quite a bit of time back in the 1980s with the sheep biologists from CA DFG, and learned that sinusitis is a big problem for a large number of our sheep. While not all broken or chipped horns are directly attributable to sinusitis, it is one of the major factors.

This thread caused me to think about some great times I had back then, on sheep captures in the Old Dads, and along the eastern sierra south of Bishop. In two seperate capture and relocation projects, we caught and transplanted about 32 desert sheep from the Old Dads to the Whipples, and about35 sheep from the country south of Bishop up into Yosemite Park. Unfortunately, most of the Yosemite sheep were killed in predation in a fairly short period of time. Nice memories this post brought back for me.

greatwestern · Mar 14, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]I don't know that I've never been entirely convinced of the 'line of sight' hypothesis. The old timers liked to say that rams wanted to maintain unobstructed peripheral vision out of at least one side (O'connor likewise perpetuated this idea through his writing), but I'm not quite sure. At least a couple of the sheep bios I know don't put much stock in it either.

Here are half dozen or so different rams from one of the areas we hunt, which is subject to significant lion predation, and that of the occasional wolf. They are all old, broomed, close curled, and are visually obstructed by their horns on both sides.

I have seen rams that seem to favor rubbing one side's horn tip over the other, but I think this is similar to rams favoring a specific side's horn keel to strike with...but I think it is something more like being right or left handed for us.

But I don't know for sure by any means, maybe some of them rams are indeed self-savvy enough to keep their horns peeled down for danger...I certainly couldn't tell ya!

**edit---there are also a lot of big short-sided rams in this same area^, and quite a few pretty battered and chunked out dudes as well...I still think they all break up their headgear primarily through direct beligerence

BCBOY · Mar 14, 2012

I've had numerous stone sheep hunters tell me the line of sight theory. In BC stones are the one sheep that probably sees the highest wolf mortality. We've got a really healthy herd of Calis just south of me and it seems even the young rams are heavily broomed. Lion predation would be their issue. The line of sight theory definately seems to make sense here, but other factors could also explain the heavy brooming too. Like the fact that we have a lot of trees and some animals just love to rub their itchy heads agaist them.
Can you imagine this Cali if he wasn't heavily broomed on the one side. Still a pig if you ask me but the kind that makes you think 'What if?'

BCBOY · Mar 14, 2012

Here's some more Cali pics showing the heavy brooming.

greatwestern · Mar 15, 2012

Awesome photos man...thanks for posting em up!

I'm gonna have to stick with lopsided brooming being incidental, for now anyway

I still think rams can see pretty well even with some horn material partially obscuring their field of view...try messing around holding 3 fingers up to your eye at various distances and angles...I don't think even a close-curled heavy horn blocks their sight as much as it would seem to

Anyway, its all very interesting!

Zeke · Mar 15, 2012

gznokes · Mar 15, 2012

This thread just took a turn for the better with those pics!

Zeke · Mar 16, 2012

Yup! Greatwestern and BCboy are usually good for a few great photos to back up their thoughts. I love them too! (the photos, not the guys! haha)

Zeke

littlebighorn · Mar 16, 2012

There is definitely something studly about those hefty chipped up old horns! Maybe that is why I bought wheels with a replica of those beasts on the hood! ha.

I too love the pics!