Bear Numbers?

[cantkillathing]

I spent 3 weeks on the Lasal mountains guiding elk hunts, I seen in the 3 weeks more bear than deer. The Lasal mountains will only have a 5 day deer hunt due to lack of deer. Believe it or not but there really is a huge number of bear on the Lasals and this huge number definetly has to have an impact on fawn survival. Every sow I seen had 2 cubs as well, so the numbers will keep going up for bear and down for deer.
We definetly need to kill some bear in utah.
I know some will say bear don't eat deer that there diet is grass and berries. There is one time of the year that the bear to eat deer and that is fawning time and they eat lots of fawns during this time.
Bears have become a huge problem and need to be hunted a little more in utah what do you guys think?

 

[Big_DD]

I had a spring tag down on the Lasals, never seen a bear and only cut one track that was old. The bears never made it out in time for this years spring hunt down there, at least not where we was at. We talked to a couple guys that found a few but said they were thin because of the cool weather and all the rain. I'd have liked to thin the population by one, but it didn't happen for me.

 

[tabbyhntr]

My cousin in aurora had a lasal tag for bear, he had 12 different bears hitting 1 single bait. needless to say i know where im putting in for bear from now on...

 

[bowhunt]

Bears eat fawns like crazy!
Do a google search, and you will find many studies on it.

I saw numerous piles of bear dung with fawn hooves in them on the Boulders Mountains.

 

[lucaar]

I saw 5 bears in a single day in the Book Cliffs this year elk hunting. They were eating a calf elk. Every time I walked by that calf I scared off a different bear. We saw 14 bears...almost more bears than deer in the roadless. I have also seen 4 on the Wasatch this year. I definately think they need to start giving out more tags. Does anyone know why they give out so few tags in areas that have large populations of bears like the Books and the Lasal's?

 

[HoundDawgJr]

Keep in mind that the Lasal's, Book Cliffs and San Juan units in SE Utah have considerably higher bear populations than the rest of Utah. I'm not really sure about this one but I'm not sure if I buy into this or not.

The San Juan probably has the highest bear population of any mountain in Utah, and we hunted it this fall pretty extensively. I've never seen so many damn deer in my life and driving up and down those roads at daybreak above Monticello.

Does and fawns so thick along that road you better be on the brake riding around at daybreak. In fact a bow hunter camped by us ended up running over one. So if the bears are eating the deer down there they are doing a mighty poor job of it. ;-)

Interesting question about why they give out few tags on those units. But I can tell you one thing, we are lucky to have any fall bear season at all because of all the deer and elk hunters that have pissed and moaned non stop the past few years about hounds on the mountain in the fall.

But of course as you already know, if I got a hunter with a fall bear tag in his pocket I could give a flying **** what any deer or elk hunter thinks about dogs on the mountain while he's sneaking around like Rambo. ;-) ;-)

But I think I would have to agree that the bear populations do appear to be on the rise in Utah. What effect that is having I don't really know. I talked to a guy who drew a Book Cliffs deer tag last year and he told me he saw over 70 bucks during his hunt or some obscene number like that.

So the bears are doing lousy job of eating the deer down there too from the way this guy talked. But a bear is an opportunist and I think if he came across a newborn fawn it would be game over.

If they are going to start giving out more tags, I hope they start by giving me one!! Seems like a logical place to start!!

Then give AWLB a tag so I can make him drive and pay for gas on all our hunts. ;-)

 

[Silentstalker]

I too think that bear numbers are on the rise and that is a good thing for all. It should translate into more bear tags for hunters and more to chase for houndsmen. I really think they need to be careful with the numbers around metro areas though. A lot of conflicts this year.

I really think the bears do have an impact during fawning/calving season but to say that why you saw so few deer is a stretch. There have always been high numbers of bears on the Book Cliffs and I have never seen so many deer as this year. A healthy herd of deer and elk usually translate into a healthy herd of predators. We definitely need a good balance though.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

HoundDawg - you're on dude! If I draw a tag I'll not only buy the gas but all the food too! I can promise you one thing, if I have a tag I will have something to kill it with! Unlike an elk hunter I know that had a tag in his pocket with elk in sight and the gun was at home!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[Kevin D]

Gas? food? That's nothing. Start paying for the Dawg's liquor too and now you're talking some serious cash!

Nah, here's my attitude: We're managing ecosystems here, not game ranches. If you want to hunt an area free from competition from other predators, buy into one of those high fence hunts. Otherwise, enjoy the wildness of diversity.

 

[rodsroost]

I have a good buddy that had a Muzzy Elk tag this fall.He had 3 trail cams set up in different areas on the unit he was hunting and scouting on.He has quite the pictures of different bears.He has 1 with the bear licking the camera.He told me that he seen bear on every trip.His dad shot a spike bull on the archery hunt.They went to check the camera the next day and the the gut pile was gone.He said that there was bear scat all around the area.This is not on the SanJuan nor the BookCliffs.This was on the West side of Utah.I have talked to several of my buddies that hunted Fishlake and the Boulder this year and they have seen more bear this year than in the past years of hunting.(ROD)

 

[HoundDawgJr]

"I can promise you one thing, if I have a tag I will have something to kill it with! Unlike an elk hunter I know that had a tag in his pocket with elk in sight and the gun was at home!"

Hey AWLB, you should have bought me lunch for leaving my gun home. The reason I left it home is I knew we'd see elk up there. I would have introduced you to how a Hound guy hunts elk.

First shot would have killed that big bull, then I would have killed those two spikes after. Then whatever cows hadn't cleared the canyon would have been next.

So I left the gun home because I figured you might not approve of my hunting methods. ;-)

Geez, these guys talk like more bears is a bad thing!! Should be cause for celebration. ;-)

I know one thing, we had a helluva lot better chance of seeing a bear on our ride up there than seeing a deer.

 

[cantkillathing]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-09 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]How did I know this post would get some houndsmen wound up..

There are 2 areas in the southeastern region that are struggling with deer populations, one is elk ridge which is a LE unit and is covered with bear. 2 is the LaSal mountains and they are covered with bear.

Both units are struggling deer units and Elkridge is under Predator Managment so you can hunt lions on a harvest objective and the Lasals are as well. They should also start a Harvest objective for the Bears on both units.

Something needs to help the deer herds on both regions and Yes eliminating some bear will help them rebound.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

HoundDawg - I knew you were thinking about my wellbeing!:d THANKS DUDE!

cantkillathing - I think the state can give out a few more bear tags and still be ok. At least until I draw one. They are doing really well where I hunt elk too. I can tell you this, I would much rather see bears than cats. Not to jump this thread or anything but I'm interested in oppinions. What do you think kills more deer, bears, cats, cars, or hunters? Just curious.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[HoundDawgJr]

Can'tKillaThing,

I'm not wound up. I agree with this thread, bear populations are certainly on the rise in Utah.

And AWLB, you are absolutely right. 95% of a bear's diet is something other than meat. They aren't even carnivores. Whereas a lion is a pure carnivore. So that one is easy for anybody with an IQ over 4 (eliminates all houndsmen unfortunately)

But if they happen on to a newborn fawn I'm sure they'll kill it, they are opportunists. But do they go hunt deer like a lion? Fat chance. Anyone who believes that... well, I won't say it.

The point I was trying to make is the Anti's are against the Spring bear hunt in a big way, always have been. So we have a limited spring bear hunt for now. Lost it once, who knows how long we'll keep it. You guys all want more bears killed, but you don't want us on the mountain with dogs in the fall. I understand that.

But there is no question bear populations are at least stable, and most likely rising in most places. But I have a problem with blaming bears for deer problems, when two of the highest densities of bear populations in Utah are also crawling with deer.

If you are going to blame the Lasal's and San Juan deer on bears, then please explain how the Book Cliffs are doing well and how there are deer crawling all over the Blues. Because there are as many if not more bears there than the Lasals and Elk Ridge...

Easy to blame it on bears, but please explain how the other two units thrive with just as many bears.

AWLB, I'll bet you get your bear tag before I get another elk tag. ;-) ;-) I ran the numbers and I should be due for another elk tag in the year 2257. Sweet, just around the corner.

But I agree they could give a few more bear tags... at least two more to me and AWLB. ;-)

 

[Buckhunter1]

Not only does Utah have a lot of bears, their mean ones. One tried to come thru the back wall of my tent in the Books last year. With me sleeping in it! I was able to scare him off but not untill he bit holes in all my gas cans, lost about 15 gallons, thats just mean! BH1

 

[OpeningDay]

BH1, you are dead on. I have been in the roadless side of the Books during the elk hunt the last few years and the bears have IMO drastically increased. Last year and this year it was hard to come across a camp or group of hunters who had not had some sort of run in with a bear or bears. Most encounters had to do with the bears in their camps at night or when they were away. There were also several trucks that had been broken into at the trail head by the bears. One actually pulled the hind quarters of an elk out the window of someones horse trailer. They had the meat hanging in the trailer. They must be silly bears up there though.. They like to bite holes in the mini propane bottles, I guess to suck in the propane. Must make them feel pretty good I guess.. Being an elk hunter I wouldn't want dogs running the mountains before or during the hunt for obvious reasons, but I think there definetley needs to be more bears taken off the mountain.

 

[OpeningDay]

didn't mean to hi-jack or change the subject of the thread. I don't think the bears are a cause for concern with the deer herds. Cats take a percentage of the deer, but I think Humans hurt the deer populations far worse than any predator. Many more deer die on roads than the cats or bears could ever kill IMO..

 

[cantkillathing]

Hounddawg, I dont think that bear are the only cause to the lack of deer on Lasals and elk ridge but they do play a part in it, and hunting and road kill on elkridge is not a part of the factor there. Roadkill for Lasals is not there either. I would disagree about Bear poplulation being Higher on the Blues.
They could give more fall bear permits without causing a problem with fall elk hunts, give spot and stalk tags out.

 

[cantkillathing]

So if Hunting and Road kill is not a factor for why elk ridge deer herd is not rebounding would it be because of the outrageous amount of bear? Same for Lasal, Road kill is not a factor on that range..

 

[OpeningDay]

cantkillathing,
I was being general with my responses. I am not really all that familiar with Elk Ridge or the La Sals. I just meant that I think human factors have a bigger effect on the deer herds than the predators ever could.

 

[HoundDawgJr]

I might be more inclined to believe bears are the problem, except for one thing.

Just up the road on the Book Cliffs, the deer seem to be doing fine and people are killing dandy bucks and seeing plenty of deer.

And that place is crawling with bears. I don't buy the San Juan having more bears, I've been on both units.

I don't know what effect bears actually have on deer herds, but I have a hard time believing they have much effect when I look at a unit like the Book Cliffs.

I guess the other thing is of the hundreds of piles of bear crap I've seen over the years out hunting, they always seem to have one thing in common: nuts, berries, seeds, acorns.

If they are wiping out the fawns they sure do a good job of hiding it in their scat.

But don't know, I don't doubt they'll take a fawn if they get the chance.

But if you are worried about fawns, I don't see how bears can even be in the discussion with coyotes running around.

You want to help the fawns, start with COYOTES. Bears still favor berries, nuts, acorns, grass and hard tack over meat.

But I'll say whatever they need to hear if it will get me a San Juan bear tag. "Ya, bears are guilty!!!"

Like CB told me once, they are all guilty of something!! ;-)

 

[REDDOG]

openingday, I have had a bit of bear trouble in the book's also. I was talking with a biologist from Price and he shed a bit of light on the problem.

Many of the problem bears or "camp ground" bears from other parts of Utah, and even other states are dumped in the bookcliffs because it is remote to large human populations. that explains the reason for their aggressive nature.

 

[OpeningDay]

REDDOG,
I have heard the same thing about the problem bears. I know the roadless is pretty remote, but this year on the rifle elk hunt we counted 79 trucks at the trail head. I know its only for a month or so out of the year, but there are a lot of people in there during that month. It is just asking for trouble when you have already "problem bears" and add a whole mess of people sleeping in tents. I am actually surprised there hasn't been an attack with as many problems I have heard about or had. I know everyone in our camp is packing pistols and assume most every camp is.