ballistics help

S

stinkystomper

Guest
I have a rather odd question that is baffling the heck out of me and I was wondering if anyone could shed light on this situation for me. First off I've done extensive shooting with lots and lots of bullets. I'm fairly well aquainted with ballistics and have rarely had any deviations from nightforces exbal program. That is until now.

I'm shooting a sako trg 42 in 338 lapua magnum. The bullets are factory ammo made by lapua themselves. They are the 250 gr scenar hollowpoint bullets. They are averaging around 2970 fps at 3300 feet elevation 90 degrees and 30% humidity. The factory printed BC is 0.675. The gun is zeroed for 200 yards

Using the printed out info from the exbal software I've tried various times to get bullseye hits at various ranges and have failed to do so. I have since compiled my own "custom" drop chart based off hudreds of rounds fired and have come up with the following

This is an MOA correction card for each given range.

yards MOA
550 7
600 8
650 9.75
700 10.75
745 11.75
835 13.50
933 16.0
1055 19.5

I can hit within 6 inches of the bullseye if I use the above given data(granted wind drift of course, vertical is right on). What is wierd about this is that it totally disagrees with what my exbal program says it should do.

The only way I can get exbal to agree with the above data is to put the bullets speed in the program at 3000 fps and change the BC to 1. This makes no sense and totally goes against everything I can think of. Exbal has been dead nuts on for every gun I've shot thus far. I've checked it against guns from a 25-06 all the way up to my 50 BMG and have always been able to rely on exbal. What gives? why is this round so different? Anyone have any experience with the scenar bullets and the lapua ammo. Is this how european ammo behaves? All I know is that it appears to be very flat shooting and is EXTREMELY accurate. around 1/2 MOA most of the time. Here's a link to where the data on the scenar can be found in case anyone is interested in helping me understand this quirk.

http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/338LapuaMagnum300grScenar2009.pdf

I'm very confident with the proven drop chart above, I'm just wanting to understand why???

Thanks in advance.






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Stinky said; "I can hit within 6 inches of the bull... What is wierd about this is that it totally disagrees with what my exbal program says it should do."


Stinky, sounds like great numbers you are getting from that 338 lapua. I'm certainly no expert of ballistics and i only mess around out to 600 yds or so even though i've been a student of the game for many years. So maybe my advise doesn't pertain to your situation, but;

I'll take my tape measure over any "program" every time. To me, it's what that tape tells me, as far as drops, that i really pay attention to.

Good luck on your hunts this year!! Joey
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 05:04AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 04:59?AM (MST)


All ballistic read outs are good for is a guideline that needs to be verified in the field, which it sounds like you have done.

What velocity was the bullet originally tested at for the BC? If it wasn't doppler radar, it is a total WAG, albita educated WAG!

The simple obvious answer:

Their BC is off for your particular gun and velocity.

JBM is about 1MOA different than your corrected read out your corrected info says it is flying flatter than what the computer is estimating. your program was off by roughly 5MOA? (you said 6")
 
I just re-read your post and seen the 6" was from wind.

so I am curious, was your ballistic program in line with mine, off 1MOA from your corrected data?

In case you didn't know. BC is not a set number, it is ever fluctuating to conditions. that's why you see BR shooters having certain loads for certain pressures, altitude, humidity...they often bring absurd amounts of ammo loaded to fit various conditions the day(weather) may bring at the match .It is a science that is hardly ever exact by those applying it.
 
reddog. Your ballistics program shows me being off by 1MOA. Mine shows me being off by 1MOA at 600 yards and up to 2.5MOA at 1000 yards. The BC printed by lapua states 0.675 at velocities over 2600 fps. It then decreases with velocity and goes to over 0.78 once the bullet is below 300 m/s. My program won't work with any of the other BC's. It does get close once I put in a BC of 1.??

For example.
My software says 1068 yards is suppose to be 22 moa.
My gun says it wants 19.75 MOA exactly.

I would simply like to know so that I can shoot with confidence at the 20 yard increments instead of only having that 95% confidence at the inbetween ranges I will have by making mental corrections between the 50 yard increments I already have.



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Believe me i understand your dilemma!

I have never seen any program 100% accurate, so that means you have to do a crap load of shooting, and by the time you gotter dialed in, its time for a new barrel, which will be faster/slower and require you to start all over!

I guess I really dont have the mathematical answer, and you shouldn't bash your brain trying to figure it out..It cant be unless everything from the moon phase to the wind speed, to the barometric pressure...is exactly the same from the facility in Finland where the testing was done, to NM where you are trying to make it work the same. I know its frustrating, but all you can do is what the guns is telling you.

I guess what would bother me, and I think its the same thing bothering you, is that .675 to a 1. is the most drastic I've seen, Ive never used Lapua bullets, but i have to wonder if it has something to do with the Finnish climate? I sure as heck never seen SMK's and the other USA bullets vary that much?


hey, if it were easy, everybody would be doing it!

you could just get a Huskemaw
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:)
 
Now that you've all told us how laser beam flat your gun shoots, and how accurate it is, you sure as hell had better dump your Dutton bull in his tracks with a single shot....of course from at least a mile or so away! :D
 
Closer is always the goal. However, I've heard far too many people say we found the big one, we just never could get close enough. I have a friend that hunts in Utah that saw a 400 bull for several days during the rifle hunt. In several days of hunting he never could get any closer than 500 yards and the average encounter was somewhere closer to 1000 I think. The bull finally disapeared during the hunt and was never seen again. I don't want this happening to me and I've heard it happen far too many times. I'd be a fool to not be prepared for such a situation. Usually it turns out when I'm geared up and absolutely ready for the long shot the derned things like to stand broad side at 100 yards. That's mainly why I practice long range. The animals sense it and just give up....LOL!


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Shooting at an elk at 1,000 yards is unethical, and most of the time, shooting at one half that distance is as well. The goal should be to have a great hunt, and killing a quality animal is part of what makes a hunt great, but isn't the only (or overriding) factor. If you aren't positive you can place a killing shot with your first bullet, you have no business squeezing the trigger. Perhaps you should determine your guns ballistics out to 400 or even 500 yards and get real good at those ranges....or learn how to stalk closer and shoot him at under 300 yards.
 
Stinky

Don't forget to add a pinch of salt down your rifle barrel before the shot so the meat doesn't spoil before you get to your kill.
 
CAELKNUTS: No problems man. I've been consistently killing yotes out to 700 yards. Cookie2 can attest to that, and the fact that I've been killing them at much further ranges. I've had these ballistics worked out since I got the gun. Just wish I knew that derned equation. I'm just one of those guys that like to know every last detail ya know. As far as 500 and 600 yard shots go..... If I shoot my bull at that distance I will shoot him in the head and put it on video just for you... LOL. I'm not worried at all out to 1000 yards. I can hit within 7 to 8 inches of my aimpoint based on how well I judge the wind. I would take it further but I only have confidence in the energy of my gun out to 1100 yards. I will have my 50BMG zeroed for 1300, 1400, and 1500 yards in case the derned things want to stand around lol...

I think the salt in the barrell is a heck of an idea. LOL


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Maybe you should just check your math again. Could be 380 and 120/8ths still doesn't make 400.

Honestly are you hunting elk or calling in a missile strike?
 
Stinky, check which method Lapua uses to calculate BC. Berger just changed from G7 method to G2 method. I have the Nightforce ExBal for my NSX NP-R2 on a 338Edge. There's a place in the program to change the setting and it has cleared things up for me. Some companies have fudged on their BCs too so keep that in mind. You can find out the true BCs by using your come-ups on the dropchart you have and do reverse math. I really don't think the Scenors are that great, (just my opinion). It might be too late to try the 300SMK for your hunt, but something to think about.
If you think I can help you any, just ask. I have "a little bit" of experience with longrange shooting in my clandestine deep-dark past.



"My sickle has a boattail"
"hidden soles leave .308 holes"
 
First off, my ammo is factory loaded because it seemed every time I worked up a load the bullet was discontinued or changed. I still load for my other 338's but I wanted a gun that was factory everything and could still shoot sub 3/4 MOA. This gun and load accomplish that task and are very dependable which is what "factory" means to me. It seems all my custom guns are way pickier than the trg and I'm getting sick of the finickyness of all the custom crap I always buy. Its nice for once to simply order my ammo from one spot and get it in the mail in a few days. And yes the ammo is all from the same lot I always specify that and send back the ammo not from the same lot. I checked the numbers on the box. I also check group sized before each round to make sure of accuracy. Yes the supressor changed the poi which is why I wont hunt with it this year. I haven't shot hundreds of rounds through it and don't have absolute confidence in it. Yes I was worried about the harmonics on the barrell but in time I will feel comfortable with my supressor. As for the other rounds they usually track linearly with exbal, meaning I adjust 1 to 1.5 moa (no exbal doesn't nail it exactly but I can crank out any distance and factor out the known constant and bingo) for most distances and thats it. I don't think I ever said experience doesn't make you a good shooter but I'm not trying to get into a pissing match either. If I did i was ahead of myself in typing and definitely made a mistake. Long range shooting is not just knowledge but experience as well. It takes both to do it with confidence. I just had a simple question if anyone has experience with the scenar bullets. I already know my trg loves them and that the knock down power of them is also superb on all the game I've taken with them so far. I'm just tired of shooting it and wondering why it has non-linear flight paths so to speak. Just wondering if I need to get a different program that takes into account the varying bc's at varying speeds. As for wind doping that takes lots and lots of practice. Mainly in the field off range. At which I believe myself to be very proficient at. Now if you haven't noticed I'm not trying to be offensive, or aerogant, or throw equations out. I'm just asking for helpful advice on the flight characteristics of this bullet. I've found lots of qualities I like about this bullet and it shoots well in my lapua. the scenar's hate the lilja barrell on my mcmillan tac 50 and this is the only gun I've ever tried them with that likes them. So hopefully you can understand my question a little better.

If I offended you in a previous post I am sorry. Sometimes I should watch my mouth and practice a little humility. Which isn't my best suit at times. Anyhow, Just wondering if anyone has any insight that, oh..... maybe yuma doppler tests can explain???

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]Stinky I deleted off my post since it was a little slanted. Adjust for what you're shooting at those yardages you know what the discrepancies are and dope the wind as best you can and go for it. The programs will hardly ever be dead on. I meant it when I said I hope you have a good hunt. You have a great atg and i hope you get a nice bull. Good luck CA
 
You sure didn't offend me, and I doubt I offended you either; but I do have a serious question. Not taking your superior marksmanship (compared to me) into account, just how far can an elk at 1,00 yards move, assuming he started to walk at the exact instant your firing pin hits that primer?

Assuming you have dead calm conditions (unusual up in the mountains) over the entire 1/2 mile plus distance that you're describing, and the fact that you can hit a 10" pie plate on a good day at that distance (assuming just your normal group dispertion, no aiming varience at all) has it occured to you yet that the liklihood of hitting a bull in ham, or worse, is every bit as likely (probably more so) as hitting him where it might kill him quickly?

If you're gonna hunt, then you need to HUNT. If you want to practice long range artillery strikes, you should volunteer for the military. After all, nobody on here is going to worry if you blow the nuts off some Al Qaeda/Taliban nutjob instead of an elk. I'm sure more than one of your MM buddies would keep QTpie occupied while you're in Afghanistan. Now, you and I would both probably agree that shooting at those pieces of human debris at 1,000 yards is good sport.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 06:44PM (MST)[p]http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/4a1df3ee0ef8dc53.jpg
 
Well stinky, I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy sharing a campfire with you, but we'd have to go our seperate ways in the morning, as our hunting philosophies are vastly different. That is, unless you needed that terrorist pig spotter, then I'd be right by your side.
 
Fair enough. Guess one of my greatest hobbies is long range shooting. I don't enjoy shooting things with a bow any more, regular rifle hunting is too easy but this long range shooting stuff simply floats my boat. Don't ask me why, I just love it. Now, if you like your pointed sticks you have at em. I just don't know how anybody can get excited about walking into the woods with a pointed stick. Man I feel inadequate when I hunt with one of those. But to each his own.


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" The shot was well over 600 yards and he was standing still. I aimed for his guts and pulled the trigger. He dropped immediately and ended up graveyard dead 30 yards from where he was shot. The hole was dead center of his guts and he was perfectly broad side"...

Thanks for blessing us all with your Intelligence....

horsepoop.gif


Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
and back to the subject..... I'm guessing noone has a vast amount of experience with the scenar.


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Yeah Snort - that quote is disturbing at best...

I don't know a scenar from a sonar. Glad I could not help.

Tone - much improved. Content - nothings changed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 06:59PM (MST)[p]Well sure I am. Scenar. That's what I axed ma naybor last week. I said "Hey Bubba, yew scenar dog". He sed "nope"

And that should not be confused with Sceneye. My Uncle Bobby was blind so he had a sceneye dog.

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WHOOOOOOOAAAA!! Everybody pull over!!!! The ethics police have arrived and ONCE AGAIN hijacked the thread with thier hypocritical comments! But since we are off subject anyways, I will just continue down this road of "Im WAY more ethical then you......wah, stinkys is so mean,wah, where is my binky....".

For those of you who tried to help with the original question, Thanks (BOSKEE and a few others) you guys show that people can disagree, throw some insults, but still be nice in the end.

To Tony, You should stop trying to be nice. It is OBVIOUSLY futile, some people will try to find fault no matter what you do. Around here it appears you cant win for losing... JMO.

To those of you who TRY to be condesending and insulting: Im cool with that, but at least TRY to make it entertaining...you know, include some pics, use some wording that makes it APPEAR like your a smart arse and not just a dumb one....See thats the difference in stinky and you wanna be's...he may be a arse, but he is a SMART one. Im mean really people....its not THAT hard!

TO the ETHICS POLICE: Who are you to judge the best way do kill an animal. Is it more ethical to lung shoot an elk with a bow and arrow, or how about a double lunger with a muzzle loader? And you gotta love the old hind quarter shot with a bow and arrow. Do you people really think that stinky with his big gun, or joe blow with his bow and arrow, or billy bob with his muzzle loader INTEND to go out and wound an animal just so it can suffer??? Point being it doesnt matter what you shoot, its not an exact science with ANY weapon, sometimes animals get wounded for whatever reason....if you cant handle that FACT, you shouldnt be hunting. If you are CONFIDENT that animal is gonna die (rather quickly) with what ever weapon you shoot, then what does it matter? Stinkys shoots a big enough gun (leave it alone boys) that at 1200 yards, where ever he hits that animal, its not going to go far. IF he wasnt sure of that fact, he would not be using that weapon.... With that gun at that yardage, it is a clean miss or a dead animal (and relatively quickly). If you guys want me to have stinky explain this to you i will, but im trying to spare us all....


Ya'll be helpful. If you just insist on trying to be like stinky then do a better job...

Now ya'll exuse me, I gotta run before my big, self serving, condesending, rude, obnoxious, MEAN, animal wounding, psychotic, douche bag( my personal favorite) of a husband comes home from the gym to verbally abuse me and make me cry....im just not sure i can handle 11 more years of him (you people who think he is that way IRL( my NEW favorite) can surely sympathize with me.)...LMAO!!!---REALLY!



[/font]
 
Qtip,

I liked you better when you were just pictures........Before you started posting..

horsepoop.gif


Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-09 AT 08:56PM (MST)[p]Sorry to disappoint snort...I appologize, nothing personal..
I find most men like the good looking women that way. Especially the good looking women with half a brain, so i will take that as a compliment. :)


PS, SSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH, please don't tell stinky about the brain thing. He thinks im STUPID, if you can IMAGINE THAT!!!! SSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH ROFLMAO[font size="22"]



[/font]
 
you edited it and still can't spell apologize? lol. Half a brain. LOL!

So, I used a picture. Does that mean I am funny. Which now that I think about it I don't think I've seen stinky use pictures much. How do you get the crayon off the monitor?
 
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"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
 
"you edited it and still can't spell apologize? lol. Half a brain. LOL!
So, I used a picture. Does that mean I am funny. Which now that I think about it I don't think I've seen stinky use pictures much. How do you get the crayon off the monitor? "



SEE PEOPLE-----FUNNY!!!! Yes NV, you are funny and so was your picture! Apparently you have seen enough of stinkys pics- you know what i mean to know he uses them. I find goo-be-gone works great on the crayon! I just have problems getting him to take his helmet off for his baths, and getting the slobber off his shirt. LMAO!!!I have never claimed to be a good proof reader or speller, and my brain and fingers dont always work in harmony. You can understand that, i will elaborate if you want, but it wont be nice.... :)lmbo!
[font size="22"]



[/font]
 
HARDWAY, that has GOT to be the STUPIDEST thing my eyeballs have EVER gazed upon...Aside from my reflection in the mirror (Still fooling SS---ssshh). Hey boys, dont get all defensive now. I am simply doing you guys a favor... It is MUCH easier to deal with me than him. I was just trying to keep you people from getting bashed. Stinky is on a path of healing and re-evalutating his inner beauty and searching for his inner peace....im simply helping him out by taking the low road for him... You guys can thank me later. [font size="22"]



[/font]
 
Oh please elaborate. You might redeem yourself.

Yep, I've earned a lot from ol' stinky 'bout posting funny pictures and bein' funny.

Here's the one from stinky's Christmas cards that year.
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And who can forget the one from his first day in physics 101 lab.
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And one from your college days No not THAT one. From your sorority days.
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That was for you Qtip, Now you have pics....lol

horsepoop.gif


Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
OH!!!! See, i knew you guys could be funny and sweet!! Group hug, hey! watch your hands NV! LMAO Hey, can i borrow that QTpie pic for my signature???? PLease??? [font size="22"]



[/font]
 
UHHHHHHHH. If anyone wants to get even with qtpie all they need to do is sneak into my house, break her mavis beacon CD and tear the backspace off the keyboard. LOL.




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silly liberals, paychecks are for workers!
 
jacked thread

No, I came home, told her to clean the house, then I told her cook me some dinner, put the kids to bed and give me a massage or else. She knows whos boss......... Now if I can just get the da*nd dog to quit licking my arse this new house might be alright!

Man this sucks I wanna go kill something...........er wound something, and watch it suffer! lol


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silly liberals, paychecks are for workers!
 
RE: jacked thread

LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-09 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]Man this sucks I wanna go kill something...........er wound something, and watch it suffer! lol

LMAO Again!!! Damn this is funny chit!!!! I love it!!! I am getting into the "longtomming" myself, I need bigger guns and more scope. Stinky I picked up a bow this summer and do like it, but I agree shooting a leg off something a 500+ is a lot more fun:)

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RE: jacked thread

Stinky, even though we don't see eye to ey on ehtical shooting, I have one long range shot that I need to send to you. BUT, since your email, inbox and profile are all disabled (chicken!) I can't send it to you. You'll love the photo, as it has to do with a 50BMG, a terrorist POS and 1,500 yards. If you can shoot as good as the sniper in the email, then I'll leave you alone. PM me with your email so that I can send it along to you, you'll love it!
 
RE: jacked thread

I sure hope it's not the Youtube "sniper footage" that is really rock chucks, not Afgan terrorists.

That had me fooled for at least a year till someone burst my bubble. :)

Send it to me CA, i can send it to stinkies personal email.







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RE: jacked thread

Doofus, er Slammy, your email is disabled too. How the heck am I supposed to send it to you when you hide like stinky? At least he PM'ed me his email so that I could send the photos to him, and no they are not of some rockchucks. There is no mistaking what the soldier shot in these photos.

I already sent it to him, and I guarantee he's getting aroused just looking at the photos (and I don't mean of QTpie, either)!
 

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