OutdoorWriter
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AZ Outfitter Charged
- Thread starter OutdoorWriter
- Start date
elkassassin
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Can You Imagine the MM Trial that would be going on if I owned a Copter?
We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
sagebrush
Very Active Member
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Starting to smell like a lifetime revocation of guide license and hunting privileges.
"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-15 AT 12:20PM (MST)[p]>All members may be guilty as
>sin but this Smith fella
>wasn't caught in a lie.
> Go look at the
>picture and read the print.
>
You're the one who better read it again and take a reading comprehension class! I guess Smith doesn't know the difference from cattle and antelope when he says cattle is all they were herding, LOL! Read below where the Officer also caught him lying in regards to guiding the pilot and then was shown pictures of the guy on his Facebook account, as well as the previous violation in 2003 where he lost his licenses for 5 years lying and saying he was innocent, even though Officer Poppenberger actually witnessed the violation he was charged with and was convicted of violating. Now come back and twist all of that like you normally do, especially when it concerns law violators!
"All three defendants denied chasing or herding antelope in northern Yavapai County. Smith told investigators they were herding only cattle.
Smith denied having any hunting clients on the property, and said he never guided Atkinson until Wildlife Officer Darren Tucker showed him a photo of Atkinson with a trophy mule deer buck on Smith's Facebook page.
Atkinson said he hunted on the ORO in 2012 and 2013, he had a mule deer tag for 2014, and he paid Smith $12,500 to hunt the ORO in 2014.
Smith lost license before
It's not the first time Smith has been charged with a hunting violation.
In 2003, Smith lost his guide license and hunting privileges for five years and was fined $2,450 by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission for using a vehicle for his client to prevent a trophy buck antelope from running onto a neighboring ranch, according to online commission minutes. His client Jack Tremain was an assistant police chief for Harrison, Ohio, at the time.
Smith and Tremain were convicted in Prescott Justice Court of taking wildlife from a vehicle and possessing unlawfully taken wildlife, according to the commission minutes. Tremain also was found guilty of shooting from a roadway.
Both men denied the charges before the Game and Fish Commission, but Poppenberger said he actually witnessed the crimes.
>sin but this Smith fella
>wasn't caught in a lie.
> Go look at the
>picture and read the print.
>
You're the one who better read it again and take a reading comprehension class! I guess Smith doesn't know the difference from cattle and antelope when he says cattle is all they were herding, LOL! Read below where the Officer also caught him lying in regards to guiding the pilot and then was shown pictures of the guy on his Facebook account, as well as the previous violation in 2003 where he lost his licenses for 5 years lying and saying he was innocent, even though Officer Poppenberger actually witnessed the violation he was charged with and was convicted of violating. Now come back and twist all of that like you normally do, especially when it concerns law violators!
"All three defendants denied chasing or herding antelope in northern Yavapai County. Smith told investigators they were herding only cattle.
Smith denied having any hunting clients on the property, and said he never guided Atkinson until Wildlife Officer Darren Tucker showed him a photo of Atkinson with a trophy mule deer buck on Smith's Facebook page.
Atkinson said he hunted on the ORO in 2012 and 2013, he had a mule deer tag for 2014, and he paid Smith $12,500 to hunt the ORO in 2014.
Smith lost license before
It's not the first time Smith has been charged with a hunting violation.
In 2003, Smith lost his guide license and hunting privileges for five years and was fined $2,450 by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission for using a vehicle for his client to prevent a trophy buck antelope from running onto a neighboring ranch, according to online commission minutes. His client Jack Tremain was an assistant police chief for Harrison, Ohio, at the time.
Smith and Tremain were convicted in Prescott Justice Court of taking wildlife from a vehicle and possessing unlawfully taken wildlife, according to the commission minutes. Tremain also was found guilty of shooting from a roadway.
Both men denied the charges before the Game and Fish Commission, but Poppenberger said he actually witnessed the crimes.
T
theboys
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-15 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]Tristate...
I think you are referring to the wrong picture. The picture that caught Smith in a lie was of the Atkinson (hunter) that showed up on the outfitters facebook page. The picture in the article is of Smith himself...
I think you are referring to the wrong picture. The picture that caught Smith in a lie was of the Atkinson (hunter) that showed up on the outfitters facebook page. The picture in the article is of Smith himself...
T
theboys
Guest
Never mind. I see what you are saying, because Smith wasn't his actual guide. Chapman was his actual guide. Poorly written article. It leaves that loophole as well as infers that he admitted to the lie. "until he was shown a picture", like he possibly confessed to the lie once shown the photo. I wonder if they were trying to rat each other out?
Tristate
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theboys,
I agree the article is of exceptionally poor quality for many reasons. There is a lot in it that is flat out illogical but we can't tell because the credibility of the article itself can be questioned.
I don't know if they are trying to rat each other out or some GW was trying to impress the writer by showing him he knows how to use a smartphone? I know it is common for law enforcement to try and catch people in lies and then use one against the other. Who knows what is happening here with as badly as the article is put together.
I agree the article is of exceptionally poor quality for many reasons. There is a lot in it that is flat out illogical but we can't tell because the credibility of the article itself can be questioned.
I don't know if they are trying to rat each other out or some GW was trying to impress the writer by showing him he knows how to use a smartphone? I know it is common for law enforcement to try and catch people in lies and then use one against the other. Who knows what is happening here with as badly as the article is put together.
Tristate
Long Time Member
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The more you blab while admitting you aren't going to read the text with the facebook shows you have no goal here but to stir spit.
Why would you not want to see the "evidence" for yourself? Answer the question.
When you were an investigator did you ever follow up and find out if a witness could be lying to you?
Why would you not want to see the "evidence" for yourself? Answer the question.
When you were an investigator did you ever follow up and find out if a witness could be lying to you?
Tristate
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What are you scared of Topgun? You cam e and attacked someone hear about "reading comprehension" but you won't go read the actual evidence because you don't "do Facebook". IS that what passes for logic now days? DO you actually think you are behaving logically or rationally?
treedagain
Long Time Member
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I can say this.....i hunted with Chad and vaquaro outfitters the year he was charged the 1st time. I found him to be honest. He offered to refund my deposit and basically get me started with places to go and provided those areas prior to me giving him an answer. I was not put off by him having a conviction. In my dealings with the ADFW they were on par with Utah game and fish. they tried to get me say Chad had broke laws on my hunt even though he was not present. They lied to me and tried to twist my words. I found them to be unprofessional and self serving. Very unethical.
to me this casts a dark cloud over anything they have to say about Chad
to me this casts a dark cloud over anything they have to say about Chad
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
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Every time someone posts a poaching thread the game and fish bashing begins. At the same time once someone is charged and convicted the same MM group wants the poachers sentenced to life in prison.
So, in this case the hunters that were out hunting saw the helicopters pushing antelope were part of a conspiracy to get the man. Highly unlikely. How would you feel if you were hunting antelope and a helicopter began pushing antelope onto another property. You would call fish and game wouldn't you?
How about no one picks sides and lets the court system work the way it is supposed to work. No one here has all of the facts or evidence and stating that you know is absurd. The Hyde park buck thread shows that fact.
And please don't come and post that people plead guilty because its cheaper even if your innocent. No one has been convicted or pled to anything.
Rich
So, in this case the hunters that were out hunting saw the helicopters pushing antelope were part of a conspiracy to get the man. Highly unlikely. How would you feel if you were hunting antelope and a helicopter began pushing antelope onto another property. You would call fish and game wouldn't you?
How about no one picks sides and lets the court system work the way it is supposed to work. No one here has all of the facts or evidence and stating that you know is absurd. The Hyde park buck thread shows that fact.
And please don't come and post that people plead guilty because its cheaper even if your innocent. No one has been convicted or pled to anything.
Rich
Tristate
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Lostinoregon,
How would you feel if a helicopter scared off your gut shot antelope you have been trying to get a second shot on for a day already? Maybe you would like a little revenge???
Why would someone "herd" a mortally wounded animal onto another property?
How would you feel if a helicopter scared off your gut shot antelope you have been trying to get a second shot on for a day already? Maybe you would like a little revenge???
Why would someone "herd" a mortally wounded animal onto another property?
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
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Tristate,
That is for the judge and jury to decide.
Rich
That is for the judge and jury to decide.
Rich
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
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Tri,
I can come around with my commentary any time I want, but thanks for your Internet toughness. My dad can beat your dad up!
Rich
I can come around with my commentary any time I want, but thanks for your Internet toughness. My dad can beat your dad up!
Rich
elkassassin
Long Time Member
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Hey Rich!
This is MM!
This is where People:
Are Tried!
Convicted!
And Hung!
We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
This is MM!
This is where People:
Are Tried!
Convicted!
And Hung!
We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 9,706
No one is trying to stop you from giving commentary. I just find it amusing to watch someone on here decide what is "highly unlikely". And then tell others to let the "judge and jury decide".
It's kind of like watching Ricky Bobby abuse the term "with all due respect".
It's kind of like watching Ricky Bobby abuse the term "with all due respect".
S
seldom
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-15 AT 08:20PM (MST)[p]>http://dcourier.com/m/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=142734
>
>TONY MANDILE
>
>How To Hunt Coues Deer
You are all over the bad hunters in most of your posts why? It must make you feel good to have never done anything wrong. I wish more of us where like you, Do you think this is an exception did you ever hunt 19a in the 70's, 80,s and 90,s this went on every year there the
Wildlife manager enforced driving goats every year with the DIY hunter but I never saw it enforced with the outfitter and guide. I was offered good money a couple times by the big boys to move on so they could do there drives I wonder why game and fish decided to enforce it this time?
>
>TONY MANDILE
>
>How To Hunt Coues Deer
You are all over the bad hunters in most of your posts why? It must make you feel good to have never done anything wrong. I wish more of us where like you, Do you think this is an exception did you ever hunt 19a in the 70's, 80,s and 90,s this went on every year there the
Wildlife manager enforced driving goats every year with the DIY hunter but I never saw it enforced with the outfitter and guide. I was offered good money a couple times by the big boys to move on so they could do there drives I wonder why game and fish decided to enforce it this time?
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
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It is still highly unlikely that this was an organized ploy by the fish and game to trap this outfitter!
Rich
Rich
treedagain
Long Time Member
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Rich/lostinoregon....why does one persons experiance with a states wildlife officers equal bashing? I have had very positive encounters with WYO, Montana and Nevada officers. But only 1 Ut officer even came close to them. When a Arizona officer approachs you and tries multiple times to get you to basically lie so they can build a case what would you think? Would sharing that with other sportsmen be considered bashing? I have found in my dealings that Ut fish and game are liars and are not public servants, I would hope these officers are isolated individuals....but i have a feeling they are not. Bash me...call me out...but it does not change that Ut needs an improvement in there dealings with the public. I think they do just fine catering to private landowners needs. Blank check
Tristate
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treedagain,
About thirty years ago TPWD had gotten such a bad reputation the State of Texas was exploring ways to dissolve it all together. Land owners hated and were paranoid of anyone employed by our game department. They couldn't get anyone to work with them. They had actually attempted to take over land use for certain properties here in Texas. Once they realized the entire department was about to be out of a job they cleaned house and now I can honestly say I have never run into GW's anywhere else of the caliber our state has. They are professional and curtious and I have not heard a word of any type of corruption.
Sometimes the state agencies need to be reigned in.
About thirty years ago TPWD had gotten such a bad reputation the State of Texas was exploring ways to dissolve it all together. Land owners hated and were paranoid of anyone employed by our game department. They couldn't get anyone to work with them. They had actually attempted to take over land use for certain properties here in Texas. Once they realized the entire department was about to be out of a job they cleaned house and now I can honestly say I have never run into GW's anywhere else of the caliber our state has. They are professional and curtious and I have not heard a word of any type of corruption.
Sometimes the state agencies need to be reigned in.
>Rich/lostinoregon....why does one persons experiance with
>a states wildlife officers equal
>bashing? I have had very
>positive encounters with WYO, Montana
>and Nevada officers. But only
>1 Ut officer even came
>close to them. When a
>Arizona officer approachs you and
>tries multiple times to get
>you to basically lie so
>they can build a case
>what would you think? Would
>sharing that with other sportsmen
>be considered bashing? I have
>found in my dealings that
>Ut fish and game are
>liars and are not public
>servants, I would hope these
>officers are isolated individuals....but i
>have a feeling they are
>not. Bash me...call me
>out...but it does not change
>that Ut needs an improvement
>in there dealings with the
>public. I think they do
>just fine catering to private
>landowners needs. Blank check
"I have
>found in my dealings that
>Ut fish and game are
>liars"
Yeah, that clearly isn't "bashing", just sharing one person's experience with fellow sportsman.
Rut
>a states wildlife officers equal
>bashing? I have had very
>positive encounters with WYO, Montana
>and Nevada officers. But only
>1 Ut officer even came
>close to them. When a
>Arizona officer approachs you and
>tries multiple times to get
>you to basically lie so
>they can build a case
>what would you think? Would
>sharing that with other sportsmen
>be considered bashing? I have
>found in my dealings that
>Ut fish and game are
>liars and are not public
>servants, I would hope these
>officers are isolated individuals....but i
>have a feeling they are
>not. Bash me...call me
>out...but it does not change
>that Ut needs an improvement
>in there dealings with the
>public. I think they do
>just fine catering to private
>landowners needs. Blank check
"I have
>found in my dealings that
>Ut fish and game are
>liars"
Yeah, that clearly isn't "bashing", just sharing one person's experience with fellow sportsman.
Rut
tx_packmule
Active Member
- Messages
- 804
>treedagain,
>
>About thirty years ago TPWD had
>gotten such a bad reputation
>the State of Texas was
>exploring ways to dissolve it
>all together. Land owners
>hated and were paranoid of
>anyone employed by our game
>department. They couldn't get
>anyone to work with them.
> They had actually attempted
>to take over land use
>for certain properties here in
>Texas. Once they realized
>the entire department was about
>to be out of a
>job they cleaned house and
>now I can honestly say
>I have never run into
>GW's anywhere else of the
>caliber our state has.
>They are professional and curtious
>and I have not heard
>a word of any type
>of corruption.
>
>Sometimes the state agencies need to
>be reigned in.
I've ran into a cpl, but the issue was explaining to them what MLD3 entails as far as their ability to write tickets for state violations and a few official oppression issues that had captains resign. There are bad apples everywhere, but that's a knock on the individual not the profession. I quit reading the article when they took a tangent to "how things work in TX". They'd have a stroke if they figured out research centers are running experiments on huge tracks on the effects of culling. Helicopters are being used to exponentially increase the amount of culls shot.
>
>About thirty years ago TPWD had
>gotten such a bad reputation
>the State of Texas was
>exploring ways to dissolve it
>all together. Land owners
>hated and were paranoid of
>anyone employed by our game
>department. They couldn't get
>anyone to work with them.
> They had actually attempted
>to take over land use
>for certain properties here in
>Texas. Once they realized
>the entire department was about
>to be out of a
>job they cleaned house and
>now I can honestly say
>I have never run into
>GW's anywhere else of the
>caliber our state has.
>They are professional and curtious
>and I have not heard
>a word of any type
>of corruption.
>
>Sometimes the state agencies need to
>be reigned in.
I've ran into a cpl, but the issue was explaining to them what MLD3 entails as far as their ability to write tickets for state violations and a few official oppression issues that had captains resign. There are bad apples everywhere, but that's a knock on the individual not the profession. I quit reading the article when they took a tangent to "how things work in TX". They'd have a stroke if they figured out research centers are running experiments on huge tracks on the effects of culling. Helicopters are being used to exponentially increase the amount of culls shot.
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
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I wrote out a long response and deleted it. I will say that I consider, "I have found in my dealings that UT fish and game are liars and not public servants" bashing and a pretty broad statement. You may have had a bad experience treedagain, but that implies they all lie.
What happened 30 years ago in Texas and what happened in UT is irrelevant to this case. In fact it says its a USFW investigation that was filed in federal court.
Not once in the article did it say that he antelope was gunshot either, but that doesn't fit the "conspiracy theory".
I will also say that Smiths past record also has nothing to do with this case but it doesn't make a great news story without smearing Smith in the article. I won't post again on this topic. This is not what MM should be about. You can carry on without me.
Rich
What happened 30 years ago in Texas and what happened in UT is irrelevant to this case. In fact it says its a USFW investigation that was filed in federal court.
Not once in the article did it say that he antelope was gunshot either, but that doesn't fit the "conspiracy theory".
I will also say that Smiths past record also has nothing to do with this case but it doesn't make a great news story without smearing Smith in the article. I won't post again on this topic. This is not what MM should be about. You can carry on without me.
Rich
Tristate
Long Time Member
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- 9,706
OK lets make it about USFWS then, and I will probably take heat for this one.
USFWS IS THE LARGEST AND MOST WELL FUNDED ANTI-HUNTING GROUP IN THE WORLD. Period.
I have never met one of their representatives that I didn't consider to be a person of low moral fabric and a complete rabid zealot. I can give you example after example of USFWS trying to frame, entrap and screw over regular law abiding citizens.
As for weather the antelope was gutshot that was an educated guess from someone who guides antelope hunts. If the description in the article was correct the antelope was mortally wounded. Seeing that he was alive a day later it is a safe assumption the critter was sore in his guts.
USFWS IS THE LARGEST AND MOST WELL FUNDED ANTI-HUNTING GROUP IN THE WORLD. Period.
I have never met one of their representatives that I didn't consider to be a person of low moral fabric and a complete rabid zealot. I can give you example after example of USFWS trying to frame, entrap and screw over regular law abiding citizens.
As for weather the antelope was gutshot that was an educated guess from someone who guides antelope hunts. If the description in the article was correct the antelope was mortally wounded. Seeing that he was alive a day later it is a safe assumption the critter was sore in his guts.
deerslayer88
Active Member
- Messages
- 972
USFWS Tri's next employment move
?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
