G
GW4BOW
Guest
Is it true 2005 general Archery Mule Deer Tags are gone?
Anyone heard anything?
Anyone heard anything?
G
GW4BOW
Guest
16,000 tags Gone??
fin little
Active Member
- Messages
- 763
According to the UDWR website. resident and nonresident archery deer permits sold out 4:15 august 19th. Was it crowded ?
B
bobcatbess
Guest
HE DROVE UP FROM CA THINKING & HOPEING THE UDWR WOULD SCARF THE MONEY & COME UP WITH A PERMIT???
THEY GOT IN TROUBLE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO FOR OVER SELLING PERMITS!!!
I THINK THE DAYS OF BUYING PERMITS OVER THE COUNTER ARE ABOUT A DONE DEAL!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THIS GUY MUST LIVE DOWN THERE BY KALI-CAT OR ARNOLD SOMEWHERE,SORRY BEST,I COULDN'T RESIST!!!
THEY GOT IN TROUBLE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO FOR OVER SELLING PERMITS!!!
I THINK THE DAYS OF BUYING PERMITS OVER THE COUNTER ARE ABOUT A DONE DEAL!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THIS GUY MUST LIVE DOWN THERE BY KALI-CAT OR ARNOLD SOMEWHERE,SORRY BEST,I COULDN'T RESIST!!!
D
DallanC
Guest
>Is it true 2005 general Archery
>Mule Deer Tags are gone?
>
>
>Anyone heard anything?
The pathetic thing is those 16,000 archery people can go anywhere in the state they want while the ML and rifle folk are currently restricted to 1 of 5 areas.
Statewide Archery needs to be divided up into areas like the other hunts, period!
-DallanC
>Mule Deer Tags are gone?
>
>
>Anyone heard anything?
The pathetic thing is those 16,000 archery people can go anywhere in the state they want while the ML and rifle folk are currently restricted to 1 of 5 areas.
Statewide Archery needs to be divided up into areas like the other hunts, period!
-DallanC
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
That's the best thing the UDWR offers hunters is the state wide acrhery, PERIOD!
'It's all about the gut pile'
'It's all about the gut pile'
BUL_KRZY
Active Member
- Messages
- 371
I went to a new area with some of my buddies this year - 4 hour drive from the SLC area. I thought we'd be in a pretty remote area - there were people and camps everywhere!
I'm still surprised 16,000 archery tags sold out!
The news of a good year last year must have brought some folks out of the wood work...
NE Rifle sold out in no time this year
Archery sold out
Guess I better buy up my General Bull tag before they sell out!
I'm still surprised 16,000 archery tags sold out!
The news of a good year last year must have brought some folks out of the wood work...
NE Rifle sold out in no time this year
Archery sold out
Guess I better buy up my General Bull tag before they sell out!
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
Why would someone wait until Friday night to buy their tag? Better yet, why would someone drive all the way from Cali to buy a tag on Friday?
I am having a hard time finding any sympathy.
Rut
I am having a hard time finding any sympathy.
Rut
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utahheadgear
Guest
Dallan,
Nothing pathetic about it. If you want to hunt anywhere in the state, buy an archery tag. I guess you think it's not fair. Well that's like an archery hunter saying that it's not fair that there are 90,000 rifle permits available, but archery permits sell out at 16,000.
16,000 doesn't seem like many compared to 90,000. Maybe that's why they need to regulate where some of those guys go, not to mention the number of deer that rifle and muzzleloaders kill compared to bow hunters.
Different games have different rules. If you don't like one game you play another one. It's that simple. Everyone is free to choose their game, but they are forced to play by the rules of the game they chose.
I like the statewide archery, it's a great opportunity for anyone that wants to give it a try.
Have a great hunting season, whatever your weapon of choice.
Nothing pathetic about it. If you want to hunt anywhere in the state, buy an archery tag. I guess you think it's not fair. Well that's like an archery hunter saying that it's not fair that there are 90,000 rifle permits available, but archery permits sell out at 16,000.
16,000 doesn't seem like many compared to 90,000. Maybe that's why they need to regulate where some of those guys go, not to mention the number of deer that rifle and muzzleloaders kill compared to bow hunters.
Different games have different rules. If you don't like one game you play another one. It's that simple. Everyone is free to choose their game, but they are forced to play by the rules of the game they chose.
I like the statewide archery, it's a great opportunity for anyone that wants to give it a try.
Have a great hunting season, whatever your weapon of choice.
S
sixgunn
Guest
I have never seen so many hunters as this year, the area we were in was crawling. Still a fun time though.
wileywapati
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,808
Dallan why don't you contact Don Peay and SFW
I am sure they can end this hunt just like they did
AR-301 because after all it's all about the rich rifle hunters
screw everyone else.
What an ignorant statement "I don't like it and I don't hunt with a bow so nobody else can either" waa waa waa!!!
I am sure they can end this hunt just like they did
AR-301 because after all it's all about the rich rifle hunters
screw everyone else.
What an ignorant statement "I don't like it and I don't hunt with a bow so nobody else can either" waa waa waa!!!
D
DallanC
Guest
> Dallan why don't you
>contact Don Peay and SFW
>I am sure they can end
>this hunt just like they
>did
>AR-301
I dont want anything ended, I dont want the tag numbers reduced.
We hear talk all the time here on MM about people who are all for dividing up the state into even smaller units, like 25 as opposed to 5 to better manage deer. I dont understand why archery isnt included to better manage pressure on the herd populations that we are trying to increase. You could have theoretically 16,000 people all show up in a single unit under the current system.
>because after all it's all
>about the rich rifle hunters
Actually if you look at the trends it appears things are leaning more favorably towards archery than any of the other hunting seasons.
>screw everyone else.
> What an ignorant statement
>"I don't like it and
>I don't hunt with a
>bow so nobody else can
>either" waa waa waa!!!
Good grief, Overreact much?
I didnt say END bow hunting, I just think archery tags should be allocated on a per unit bases so we can better manage harvests and pressure. How on earth did you read into my statement I wanted anything stopped?
And as an FYI, I DID bow hunt last year taking a nice one opening day and spent this past weekend helping my wife who is bowhunting for her first time. First time I picked up a bow and hunted deer with it was in 1984 so dont presume to read into my statement the mindless drivel you made up.
-DallanC
>contact Don Peay and SFW
>I am sure they can end
>this hunt just like they
>did
>AR-301
I dont want anything ended, I dont want the tag numbers reduced.
We hear talk all the time here on MM about people who are all for dividing up the state into even smaller units, like 25 as opposed to 5 to better manage deer. I dont understand why archery isnt included to better manage pressure on the herd populations that we are trying to increase. You could have theoretically 16,000 people all show up in a single unit under the current system.
>because after all it's all
>about the rich rifle hunters
Actually if you look at the trends it appears things are leaning more favorably towards archery than any of the other hunting seasons.
>screw everyone else.
> What an ignorant statement
>"I don't like it and
>I don't hunt with a
>bow so nobody else can
>either" waa waa waa!!!
Good grief, Overreact much?
I didnt say END bow hunting, I just think archery tags should be allocated on a per unit bases so we can better manage harvests and pressure. How on earth did you read into my statement I wanted anything stopped?
And as an FYI, I DID bow hunt last year taking a nice one opening day and spent this past weekend helping my wife who is bowhunting for her first time. First time I picked up a bow and hunted deer with it was in 1984 so dont presume to read into my statement the mindless drivel you made up.
-DallanC
U
utahheadgear
Guest
Dallan,
I think there are two reasons they don't require archery hunters to choose a region. 1. They are trying to entice more people to take up archery hunting because archery hunts have less impact on an already suffering herd but still allows them to offer hunting opportunity instead of simply cutting tags and disallowing alot of people an opportunity to hunt.
2. The relatively small numbers of bowhunters (16,000) combined with their overall low success rates don't have enough impact on herd populations to require that they be restricted to a specific region (which allows them to do what I mentioned above). That is not the case with rifle and ML hunters because they harvest far more animals.
This is how I see it anyway. I surely could be wrong.
I think there are two reasons they don't require archery hunters to choose a region. 1. They are trying to entice more people to take up archery hunting because archery hunts have less impact on an already suffering herd but still allows them to offer hunting opportunity instead of simply cutting tags and disallowing alot of people an opportunity to hunt.
2. The relatively small numbers of bowhunters (16,000) combined with their overall low success rates don't have enough impact on herd populations to require that they be restricted to a specific region (which allows them to do what I mentioned above). That is not the case with rifle and ML hunters because they harvest far more animals.
This is how I see it anyway. I surely could be wrong.
Why don't you go talk to the biologists in the southern region. They want the state wide done away with. The southern region gets hammers on the bow hunt and the biologists say it is having a negative impact on the deer herds. The other four regions don't care because they don't get near as many hunters on the bow hunt and are not getting impacted like the south. Oh I forgot the biologists don't no anything compared to all of you experts! And Yes I've bowhunted for 23 years and I'm for what's best for the deer herds not what is best for us hunters. It's all take take take and no give!! It's got to change or we'll all be done hunting.
Dallan C. I with ya one this one.
There I've done my venting and yes I do feel better...
Evan
Dallan C. I with ya one this one.
There I've done my venting and yes I do feel better...
Evan
R
ruttnstrutt
Guest
Here's something to think about.....
RuttNStrutt
GAME COMMISSION RELEASES 2003-2004
DEER HARVEST NUMBERS
Antlerless deer harvest is 2nd highest;
total harvest ranks 4th highest
HARRISBURG - Commonwealth hunters recorded the fourth highest deer harvest in state history, including the second highest antlerless deer harvest, during the 2003-04 seasons, according to figures released by the Pennsylvania Game Commission today.
Hunters took 464,890 deer - including 322,620 antlerless deer and 142,270 antlered deer - during the slate of deer seasons that ran from Oct. 4, 2003, through Jan. 10, 2004. During the 2002-03 season, hunters harvested an all-time record of 517,529 deer. Other record years were 2000-01 (504,600), 2001-02 (486,014) and 1995-96 (430,583).
RuttNStrutt
GAME COMMISSION RELEASES 2003-2004
DEER HARVEST NUMBERS
Antlerless deer harvest is 2nd highest;
total harvest ranks 4th highest
HARRISBURG - Commonwealth hunters recorded the fourth highest deer harvest in state history, including the second highest antlerless deer harvest, during the 2003-04 seasons, according to figures released by the Pennsylvania Game Commission today.
Hunters took 464,890 deer - including 322,620 antlerless deer and 142,270 antlered deer - during the slate of deer seasons that ran from Oct. 4, 2003, through Jan. 10, 2004. During the 2002-03 season, hunters harvested an all-time record of 517,529 deer. Other record years were 2000-01 (504,600), 2001-02 (486,014) and 1995-96 (430,583).
B
bobcatbess
Guest
WELL
I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING THERE RuttNStrutt!!!
IF THE HUNTERS WOULD OF KILLED THAT MANY DEER IN THIS STATE 1/2 OF THEM WOULD OF HAD TO GO TO ZOO'S TO GET THE OTHER 1/2!!!
JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE NON-STOP HUNTING FOR 6-7 MONTHS OF THE YEAR DOESN'T MEAN ITS ALL THAT GOOD!!!
BOY WOULD THE DWR LIKE TO SELL 500,000 PERMITS!!!
THEY CLAIM THE N.E. REGION RIFLE PERMITS SOLD OUT IN 5 HOURS,ANY YEAR PRIOR YOU COULD BUY THE PERMIT THE DAY BEFORE SEASON!!!
SHOULD THIS TELL US SOMETHING???
ARE WE GONNA GET INVADED BY NEW HUNTERS BECAUSE THERE WAS A TWO POINT KILLED IN THE REGION LAST YEAR???
MY HOW THE WORD TRAVELS!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING WE COULD GET INVADED,PLEASE BRING YOUR WHEELERS & TRY YOUR LUCK IN THE HIGH COUNTRY!!!
I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING THERE RuttNStrutt!!!
IF THE HUNTERS WOULD OF KILLED THAT MANY DEER IN THIS STATE 1/2 OF THEM WOULD OF HAD TO GO TO ZOO'S TO GET THE OTHER 1/2!!!
JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE NON-STOP HUNTING FOR 6-7 MONTHS OF THE YEAR DOESN'T MEAN ITS ALL THAT GOOD!!!
BOY WOULD THE DWR LIKE TO SELL 500,000 PERMITS!!!
THEY CLAIM THE N.E. REGION RIFLE PERMITS SOLD OUT IN 5 HOURS,ANY YEAR PRIOR YOU COULD BUY THE PERMIT THE DAY BEFORE SEASON!!!
SHOULD THIS TELL US SOMETHING???
ARE WE GONNA GET INVADED BY NEW HUNTERS BECAUSE THERE WAS A TWO POINT KILLED IN THE REGION LAST YEAR???
MY HOW THE WORD TRAVELS!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING WE COULD GET INVADED,PLEASE BRING YOUR WHEELERS & TRY YOUR LUCK IN THE HIGH COUNTRY!!!
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
I wish everybody would head down south. The more the merrier, right. Enjoy it while it lasts boys! Won't be long now.
'It's all about the gut pile'
'It's all about the gut pile'
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utahheadgear
Guest
"Buying a bow tag to scout for the rifle hunt" How? You can't do both. If you have a bow tag you can't get a rifle tag also, unless your in the dedicated hunter program. Just wondering?
Huntnfool,
I attempt to have confidence in the DWR in general, although I do beleive they make mistakes, but who doesn't? I think that if the statewide archery hunt was hurting anything they would disallow it for the same reasons that I gave before that they don't allow rifle hunters to hunt state wide. As I said, they are trying to help the herd and still let you go hunting by enticing more archery hunters who have much less impact on the herd. If they have kept the statewide archery hunt despite the recommendations of the southern biologists, I'd say it's because the general statewide concensus is that the southern biologists are wrong. I would agree, they are wrong. Even if all 16,000 bowhunters went to the southern two regions to hunt (which they don't)and had a very stellar year of hunting they might have 15 percent success, maybe!! Crunch the numbers and you come up with 2,400 harvested deer. That number, I would guess, is insignificant when compared to the number of deer harvested in the same two regions during the rifle season, and are also much higher than what is actually happening, which is why they keep it going. It's a great thing for the herd and for the hunters of the entire state.
Again, this is the way I see it, I don't claim to have all the answers.
Have a good one.
Huntnfool,
I attempt to have confidence in the DWR in general, although I do beleive they make mistakes, but who doesn't? I think that if the statewide archery hunt was hurting anything they would disallow it for the same reasons that I gave before that they don't allow rifle hunters to hunt state wide. As I said, they are trying to help the herd and still let you go hunting by enticing more archery hunters who have much less impact on the herd. If they have kept the statewide archery hunt despite the recommendations of the southern biologists, I'd say it's because the general statewide concensus is that the southern biologists are wrong. I would agree, they are wrong. Even if all 16,000 bowhunters went to the southern two regions to hunt (which they don't)and had a very stellar year of hunting they might have 15 percent success, maybe!! Crunch the numbers and you come up with 2,400 harvested deer. That number, I would guess, is insignificant when compared to the number of deer harvested in the same two regions during the rifle season, and are also much higher than what is actually happening, which is why they keep it going. It's a great thing for the herd and for the hunters of the entire state.
Again, this is the way I see it, I don't claim to have all the answers.
Have a good one.
U
utahheadgear
Guest
Found this on the DWR website, thought you might find it interesting since the southern regions are getting hammered by bow hunters. wink,wink.......
Posted Monday, April 4, 2005
After the hunts were over, DWR biologists conducted their annual post-hunting season deer population surveys. They found that the number of bucks in both the Central and Northeastern regions had fallen to a three-year average of 14 bucks per 100 does. That's just slightly under the goal of at least 15 bucks per 100 does called for in Utah's Deer Management Plan.
"It's important, for the deer and for hunters, that these goals are met," he said. "Keeping at least 15 bucks per 100 does in the population helps ensure that older, mature bucks are maintained in the herds and are available for hunters."
Biologists found slightly better news in the Southeastern and Southern regions. After their surveys this past fall, the three-year buck to doe ratio averaged 15 bucks per 100 does in each region. The best news was found in the Northern Region, where the three-year buck to doe average is 17 bucks per 100 does on the region's public land units.
.........I guess it's not as bad down south as the southerners would like us to think.
Posted Monday, April 4, 2005
After the hunts were over, DWR biologists conducted their annual post-hunting season deer population surveys. They found that the number of bucks in both the Central and Northeastern regions had fallen to a three-year average of 14 bucks per 100 does. That's just slightly under the goal of at least 15 bucks per 100 does called for in Utah's Deer Management Plan.
"It's important, for the deer and for hunters, that these goals are met," he said. "Keeping at least 15 bucks per 100 does in the population helps ensure that older, mature bucks are maintained in the herds and are available for hunters."
Biologists found slightly better news in the Southeastern and Southern regions. After their surveys this past fall, the three-year buck to doe ratio averaged 15 bucks per 100 does in each region. The best news was found in the Northern Region, where the three-year buck to doe average is 17 bucks per 100 does on the region's public land units.
.........I guess it's not as bad down south as the southerners would like us to think.
The 16,000 number is all wrong when talking about archery pressure. Jump that number to around 35,000 and you will have it right.
16,000 archery licenses + 8,000 dedicated hunters + 10,000-15,000 youth hunters.
Then consider that archery success hovers around 15% while rifle success is aroud 25%. 1 in 4 rifle hunters harvest, while 1 in 6 archers harvest. That isn't such a big difference. Archers have an impact. No doubt about it. Every hunter, not matter the weapon type should have to choose thier region.
I believe the DWR sold out on Archery Permits last year (or came within 200 of selling out), but it took until November.
16,000 archery licenses + 8,000 dedicated hunters + 10,000-15,000 youth hunters.
Then consider that archery success hovers around 15% while rifle success is aroud 25%. 1 in 4 rifle hunters harvest, while 1 in 6 archers harvest. That isn't such a big difference. Archers have an impact. No doubt about it. Every hunter, not matter the weapon type should have to choose thier region.
I believe the DWR sold out on Archery Permits last year (or came within 200 of selling out), but it took until November.
hunter1975
Active Member
- Messages
- 191
To add a question to Packout's post.... I wonder what the ratio of yearling bucks taken versus 2 1/2 and older deer is on the archery hunt in the southern region versus the same comparison ratio for muzz and rifle?
wileywapati
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,808
Dallan yeah I do get pretty spun up
when I see people whining about things over nothing more than petty jealousy. You can spin the numbers anyway you want
Preston pulled info right off the DWR site that supposedly came from the mouth of "southern Biologists " that was totally opposite of what had been posted and claimed.
When we get to the point of being honest with each other and can say as men or women that it pisses me off that bowhunters get something that I as a rifle or muzzy hunter don't get then
we can probably move forward with an honest discussion.
I will be the first to admit that yeah bowhunters get some awesome advantages to lure people into hunting with a bow
some are statewide archery, early season, long seasons and lower pressure. The disadvantages is that I chose to hunt with a bow only so I know my success will probably be around 15%, I know if I ever draw a LTD Entry elk tag I will be hunting with the general season archery elk hunters, I know my allottment of tags will always be minute compared to rifle hunters and as a bowhunter I know I will never have the pull to get things done at the RACs like the rifle hunting majority in this state does.
Lets say for a second that we take some of the things that bring hunters into bowhunting and dump all of these people back into the rifle or muzzy pool of just general hunters, how hard do you think it would get to draw your southern region tag then??
Be honest with yourselves this is nothing more than petty jealousy
when I see people whining about things over nothing more than petty jealousy. You can spin the numbers anyway you want
Preston pulled info right off the DWR site that supposedly came from the mouth of "southern Biologists " that was totally opposite of what had been posted and claimed.
When we get to the point of being honest with each other and can say as men or women that it pisses me off that bowhunters get something that I as a rifle or muzzy hunter don't get then
we can probably move forward with an honest discussion.
I will be the first to admit that yeah bowhunters get some awesome advantages to lure people into hunting with a bow
some are statewide archery, early season, long seasons and lower pressure. The disadvantages is that I chose to hunt with a bow only so I know my success will probably be around 15%, I know if I ever draw a LTD Entry elk tag I will be hunting with the general season archery elk hunters, I know my allottment of tags will always be minute compared to rifle hunters and as a bowhunter I know I will never have the pull to get things done at the RACs like the rifle hunting majority in this state does.
Lets say for a second that we take some of the things that bring hunters into bowhunting and dump all of these people back into the rifle or muzzy pool of just general hunters, how hard do you think it would get to draw your southern region tag then??
Be honest with yourselves this is nothing more than petty jealousy
U
utahheadgear
Guest
Packout,
Those numbers are bogus! You show me some proof and I'll rethink my stance and give up, but until then I'm going by the numbers we can actually see, not by speculation. Those other hunts are incidentals that will follow the actual permit number trends. And even if your numbers are correct, the southern regions still showed steady, and better buck to doe ratios in the state, while the North and Central regions showed a slight decline. This hardly shows the south to be "HAMMERED" by hunting pressure!!
I guess you fellas just think that because you saw alot of hunters in the south that the hills to the north must have been void of any hunters. Hell if thats true why don't you come up here to hunt.
You are right 1 to 6 isn't much worse than 1 to 4 until you have figure that you have 3 times as many rifle hunters as you do archery hunters. Now who has more impact?
I'm part of the dedicated hunter program and before that have strictly archery hunted for around 12 years and have never set foot in either of the two southern regions during a hunt. I guess I'm the only one.
As for the question about age class of deer. I would respond that the number of mature deer in an area is directly perportional to the buck to doe ratios. Thus the number of mature bucks in the northern versus the southern parts of the state on general units is likely very comparable.
Those numbers are bogus! You show me some proof and I'll rethink my stance and give up, but until then I'm going by the numbers we can actually see, not by speculation. Those other hunts are incidentals that will follow the actual permit number trends. And even if your numbers are correct, the southern regions still showed steady, and better buck to doe ratios in the state, while the North and Central regions showed a slight decline. This hardly shows the south to be "HAMMERED" by hunting pressure!!
I guess you fellas just think that because you saw alot of hunters in the south that the hills to the north must have been void of any hunters. Hell if thats true why don't you come up here to hunt.
You are right 1 to 6 isn't much worse than 1 to 4 until you have figure that you have 3 times as many rifle hunters as you do archery hunters. Now who has more impact?
I'm part of the dedicated hunter program and before that have strictly archery hunted for around 12 years and have never set foot in either of the two southern regions during a hunt. I guess I'm the only one.
As for the question about age class of deer. I would respond that the number of mature deer in an area is directly perportional to the buck to doe ratios. Thus the number of mature bucks in the northern versus the southern parts of the state on general units is likely very comparable.
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,404
What's really funny, is that in '04 out of 15,498 available archery tags, there were only 5006 applicants. So if the tags were almost sold out last year, that would mean that some where around 10,000 'would-be' rifle and muzz hunters bought the leftover archery tags. Lets see, since there were 10,293 resident southern tags for last year, and 16,137 resident applicants. I would dare bet that a large portion of the previously mentioned 'would-be' rifle and muzz hunter's jumped ship when they didn't draw the southern tag, and headed down with the bow...You like apples? How do you like those apples?
'It's all about the gut pile'
'It's all about the gut pile'
U
utahheadgear
Guest
You make a good point, and I do love apples. I would respond, however, that it is very doubtful that all of those unsuccessful applicants that are rifle hunters would go out and become bowhunters overnight. It's way too involved (getting equipment, etc.). I would say it is more likely that those applicants would either not go hunting, or they were the ones in line when the gates opened for northern, central, and Northeast region rifle tags. Sure you'll get some that cross over to bow tags but all 6,000 guys that were unsuccessful?? Not likely. Most of the bow tags that sold after the draw were bowhunters already that knew there would be plenty of tags left after the draw and didn't care to worry about it that early in the year, or didn't want to have to pay the extra $5.00 application fee when they could just pick up their tag at the grocery store while shopping later in the year. That's what I think anyway. No one knows for sure.
Let's not forget that the majority of hunters are weekend warriors at best and aren't going to become bowhunters just like that. They are going to go the easiest route, be it buy a rifle tag for another region, or simply stay home and watch football.
Let's not forget that the majority of hunters are weekend warriors at best and aren't going to become bowhunters just like that. They are going to go the easiest route, be it buy a rifle tag for another region, or simply stay home and watch football.
D
DallanC
Guest
>I would respond, however, that
>it is very doubtful that
>all of those unsuccessful applicants
>that are rifle hunters would
>go out and become bowhunters
>overnight.
Dude, have you seen the archery shops lately? Heck even tiny ones like Humpherys in AF sell 10-15 bows a week. I would imagine if you totalled up Jakes, Sportsmens and all the other archery shops around + mail order, its a huge amount of bows sold yearly.
I welcome anyone who wants to get into it as a way to hunt if you dont get the ML or Rifle tag... I just want to see area caps though like the ML and Rifle hunters.
-DallanC
>it is very doubtful that
>all of those unsuccessful applicants
>that are rifle hunters would
>go out and become bowhunters
>overnight.
Dude, have you seen the archery shops lately? Heck even tiny ones like Humpherys in AF sell 10-15 bows a week. I would imagine if you totalled up Jakes, Sportsmens and all the other archery shops around + mail order, its a huge amount of bows sold yearly.
I welcome anyone who wants to get into it as a way to hunt if you dont get the ML or Rifle tag... I just want to see area caps though like the ML and Rifle hunters.
-DallanC
Utahheadgear
Found this on the DWR website, thought you might find it interesting since the southern regions are getting hammered by bow hunters. wink,wink.......
Posted Monday, April 4, 2005
After the hunts were over, DWR biologists conducted their annual post-hunting season deer population surveys. They found that the number of bucks in both the Central and Northeastern regions had fallen to a three-year average of 14 bucks per 100 does. That's just slightly under the goal of at least 15 bucks per 100 does called for in Utah's Deer Management Plan.
"It's important, for the deer and for hunters, that these goals are met," he said. "Keeping at least 15 bucks per 100 does in the population helps ensure that older, mature bucks are maintained in the herds and are available for hunters."
Biologists found slightly better news in the Southeastern and Southern regions. After their surveys this past fall, the three-year buck to doe ratio averaged 15 bucks per 100 does in each region. The best news was found in the Northern Region, where the three-year buck to doe average is 17 bucks per 100 does on the region's public land units.
.........I guess it's not as bad down south as the southerners would like us to think.
If it's not as bad as we think I wonder why they cut the southern rifle hunt to five days this year. Maybe next year they can cut it to two days and then issue 20,000 statewide archery tags.
Found this on the DWR website, thought you might find it interesting since the southern regions are getting hammered by bow hunters. wink,wink.......
Posted Monday, April 4, 2005
After the hunts were over, DWR biologists conducted their annual post-hunting season deer population surveys. They found that the number of bucks in both the Central and Northeastern regions had fallen to a three-year average of 14 bucks per 100 does. That's just slightly under the goal of at least 15 bucks per 100 does called for in Utah's Deer Management Plan.
"It's important, for the deer and for hunters, that these goals are met," he said. "Keeping at least 15 bucks per 100 does in the population helps ensure that older, mature bucks are maintained in the herds and are available for hunters."
Biologists found slightly better news in the Southeastern and Southern regions. After their surveys this past fall, the three-year buck to doe ratio averaged 15 bucks per 100 does in each region. The best news was found in the Northern Region, where the three-year buck to doe average is 17 bucks per 100 does on the region's public land units.
.........I guess it's not as bad down south as the southerners would like us to think.
If it's not as bad as we think I wonder why they cut the southern rifle hunt to five days this year. Maybe next year they can cut it to two days and then issue 20,000 statewide archery tags.
UT--- Those numbers are not bogus. Those are the real possibilities of archery hunters. I never said they all hunted the Southern Region. I just said that there are 2x as many archers hunting than there are archery tags. The number is over 30,000 and under 40,000, not just 16,000.
You stated, "You are right 1 to 6 isn't much worse than 1 to 4 until you have figure that you have 3 times as many rifle hunters as you do archery hunters. Now who has more impact?"
Obviously the Rifle hunters take more animals and their success ratio is higher so they do have more of an impact. BUT, the rifle hunter's impact is only slightly higher than an archers impact; 1in4 compared to 1in6. I don't care how many overall number there are in each group, just the ratio of DEER HARVESTED PER HUNTER.
I would also go for making the Wasatch Front LTD Entry Archery. Now how do you like that idea???? (The Front is my Favorite place to hunt.)
WILEYWAPITI- It is petty jealousy to expect to have archery statewide.
You stated, "You are right 1 to 6 isn't much worse than 1 to 4 until you have figure that you have 3 times as many rifle hunters as you do archery hunters. Now who has more impact?"
Obviously the Rifle hunters take more animals and their success ratio is higher so they do have more of an impact. BUT, the rifle hunter's impact is only slightly higher than an archers impact; 1in4 compared to 1in6. I don't care how many overall number there are in each group, just the ratio of DEER HARVESTED PER HUNTER.
I would also go for making the Wasatch Front LTD Entry Archery. Now how do you like that idea???? (The Front is my Favorite place to hunt.)
WILEYWAPITI- It is petty jealousy to expect to have archery statewide.
U
utahheadgear
Guest
Until you show me facts that state that there are 30,000 bowhunters afeild your argument doesn't hold water. It's speculation, period???
Total numbers matter. Majority Rules, no matter the ratio.
We won't get into the Wasatch. That's another topic.
Total numbers matter. Majority Rules, no matter the ratio.
We won't get into the Wasatch. That's another topic.
U
utahheadgear
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-05 AT 05:06PM (MST)[p]Dallan,
Yeah, I've seen em. I used to managed one of the ones you mentioned for about three years. Beleive me, it's not as good as you think, and Humphries is not small.
No matter how many bows they sell permit numbers are what count, and they have not significantly increased. They have surely not increased by 6,000 tags in a single year like it has been speculated.
Yeah, I've seen em. I used to managed one of the ones you mentioned for about three years. Beleive me, it's not as good as you think, and Humphries is not small.
No matter how many bows they sell permit numbers are what count, and they have not significantly increased. They have surely not increased by 6,000 tags in a single year like it has been speculated.
U
utahheadgear
Guest
Don't know. Ask them, and give us some facts as to what you find out. Buck to doe ratios, and current permit numbers issued DO NOT support your theory that the south is getting "hammered" by archery hunters. I've shown this to be true through facts, posted here, from the DWR web site. You have given us speculation. Bring on the facts. I want to know where it is that you heard the DWR or Southern Biologists say, "Excessive amounts of archery hunters are decimating the deer herd in southern Utah." Show me that, and I'll be forced to rest my case now won't I?
Verticalslope
Active Member
- Messages
- 264
A hunting companion just spoke with the biologist in the Southern region this past weekend on the extremely crowded bow hunt opener. The biologist stated that in the Holden area the post season count dropped to approximately 11 bucks to 100 does in that area alone after the 2004 rifle hunt.
I have bowhunted that area since the late 80's and I can promise you that the bowhunting pressure has gotten out of control in that area. It's steep rugged country with limited camping spaces and every nook and cranney was filled with a camp.
Of course I have learned to use the hunting pressure to my advantage and it has been working well but it does get a little frustrating to see more and more bow hunters every year. I don't know the stats of how many people are going South or how many deer their harvesting but I use to live for the bow hunt and now it's not as exciting because of the pressure.
I have bowhunted that area since the late 80's and I can promise you that the bowhunting pressure has gotten out of control in that area. It's steep rugged country with limited camping spaces and every nook and cranney was filled with a camp.
Of course I have learned to use the hunting pressure to my advantage and it has been working well but it does get a little frustrating to see more and more bow hunters every year. I don't know the stats of how many people are going South or how many deer their harvesting but I use to live for the bow hunt and now it's not as exciting because of the pressure.
LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-05 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]Utah- For someone who claims to have managed an archery shop for 3 years you just don't get it. It does not take a rocket scientist to find that there were 16,000 archery permits sold this year. It doesn't take much to find that there are approx 8,000 dedicated hunters who can hunt archery. There are at least 10,000 hunters under the age of 18 who can hunt all 3 seasons. I have heard that the number is actually higher than that. That means a total of 34,000+- possible archery hunters. That is the last time I will explain it for you. If you don't beleive the numbers then research it for yourself. Archery possible permit numbers have increased every year, through more dedicated hunters and an extreme increase a couple years ago when Youth Hunters were allowed to participate in the statewide archery hunt. Then throw in the people who are buying an archery tag every other year to continue to hunt their areas when they don't draw a rifle/muzzleloader tag. Thats all I have to say on the subject.
SneakAttack
Very Active Member
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- 1,404
Packout,
The numbers you are using are wrong. With the numbers you are using, that would make a total of 115,000 deer permits. There are only 97,000 permits total. That takes into account ALL hunters. There is a total of 16,000 PERMITS,(possible archery hunters). Last year there was only 5006 HUNTERS. I agree that the hunters numbers have increased, but the tag numbers have not.
'It's all about the gut pile'
The numbers you are using are wrong. With the numbers you are using, that would make a total of 115,000 deer permits. There are only 97,000 permits total. That takes into account ALL hunters. There is a total of 16,000 PERMITS,(possible archery hunters). Last year there was only 5006 HUNTERS. I agree that the hunters numbers have increased, but the tag numbers have not.
'It's all about the gut pile'
U
utahheadgear
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-05 AT 09:41AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-05 AT 09:27?AM (MST)
Packout,
I've researched every number that I've referenced. I'm asking you to do the same with yours. Your personal opinion is not proof enough, and I don't have to do your fact finding for you. Get real! You are giving your guess as to the numbers. I'm not arguing that there are 8,000 some odd Dedicated hunters and a bunch of youth hunters ( I have no idea how many). But you are trying to say that they are all going to the southern units to bowhunt and thats where I beleive you are mistaken. Unless of course you can prove it with verifiable data?????
Waiting...........
(Quote from Packout)
"I have heard that the number is actually higher than that"
I don't know about the rest of you, but that sounds pretty ligit to me, huh?
Anyway, the numbers stated on the DWR web site show 15 bucks to 100 does in the southern two regions (right at objective), and permit numbers remained the same. The south may have a bunch of hunters but they must not be very good ones because they are obviously not killing all of the deer. If they were, permits would have been decreased as they were in the central and NE units.
That's my stance, at least until I see some facts that show different. They might be out there, but Packout can't find them. Anyone else? I am truly interested in knowing if there is more to the story. Like I've said, I definately don't have all the answers. I just call it as I see it, and won't accept someones guess as FACT.
Packout,
I've researched every number that I've referenced. I'm asking you to do the same with yours. Your personal opinion is not proof enough, and I don't have to do your fact finding for you. Get real! You are giving your guess as to the numbers. I'm not arguing that there are 8,000 some odd Dedicated hunters and a bunch of youth hunters ( I have no idea how many). But you are trying to say that they are all going to the southern units to bowhunt and thats where I beleive you are mistaken. Unless of course you can prove it with verifiable data?????
Waiting...........
(Quote from Packout)
"I have heard that the number is actually higher than that"
I don't know about the rest of you, but that sounds pretty ligit to me, huh?
Anyway, the numbers stated on the DWR web site show 15 bucks to 100 does in the southern two regions (right at objective), and permit numbers remained the same. The south may have a bunch of hunters but they must not be very good ones because they are obviously not killing all of the deer. If they were, permits would have been decreased as they were in the central and NE units.
That's my stance, at least until I see some facts that show different. They might be out there, but Packout can't find them. Anyone else? I am truly interested in knowing if there is more to the story. Like I've said, I definately don't have all the answers. I just call it as I see it, and won't accept someones guess as FACT.
Heres a fact for you. Until they restrict the archery hunt to regions no one will know how many of the 16,000 tag holders hunt the southern region which is exactly why is should be done.
The way it is works now is great for me. The years I don't draw rifle I buy the archery tag. I take advantage of it like alot of people do but that dosen't make it right.
Who knows maybe if they had accurate numbers that were hunting in each region they could even increase the archery permits someday.
The way it is works now is great for me. The years I don't draw rifle I buy the archery tag. I take advantage of it like alot of people do but that dosen't make it right.
Who knows maybe if they had accurate numbers that were hunting in each region they could even increase the archery permits someday.
wileywapati
Very Active Member
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- 1,808
Preston you are wasting your time
I guess it's too bad you haven't earned a living over the last ten years in the archery industry like the "experts" here.
I've archery hunted for 13 straight years and also never ventured south of Spring City ( last weekend )
As a non dedicated hunter it's kind of hypocritical of me to suggest changes to the program but I believe that if it was mandated that all work hours MUST BE PERFORMED IN THE SELECTED AREA FOR THEIR TAGS the southern area would quite possibly see a slight decrease in hunters MAYBE.
As far as youth hunters bring them all on and give them every advantage available. I have a 10 year old son and I would sure as hell spend a weekend on the mountain with him rather than have him sitting in front of a playstation or hanging out with
neighborhood punks. These kids will decide how we hunt as we age and if they are not educated as far as not just hunting but the outdoors period we are screwed. They will if we are lucky just join the 80% of society that do not hunt instead of going all out and hooking up with the 10% PETA crowd.
Comparing the southern end of Skyline Drive last weekend
to other openers in the northeastern unit where I have usually hunted in the past I would say hunter pressure was probably higher in the northeast area
I guess it's too bad you haven't earned a living over the last ten years in the archery industry like the "experts" here.
I've archery hunted for 13 straight years and also never ventured south of Spring City ( last weekend )
As a non dedicated hunter it's kind of hypocritical of me to suggest changes to the program but I believe that if it was mandated that all work hours MUST BE PERFORMED IN THE SELECTED AREA FOR THEIR TAGS the southern area would quite possibly see a slight decrease in hunters MAYBE.
As far as youth hunters bring them all on and give them every advantage available. I have a 10 year old son and I would sure as hell spend a weekend on the mountain with him rather than have him sitting in front of a playstation or hanging out with
neighborhood punks. These kids will decide how we hunt as we age and if they are not educated as far as not just hunting but the outdoors period we are screwed. They will if we are lucky just join the 80% of society that do not hunt instead of going all out and hooking up with the 10% PETA crowd.
Comparing the southern end of Skyline Drive last weekend
to other openers in the northeastern unit where I have usually hunted in the past I would say hunter pressure was probably higher in the northeast area
wileywapati
Very Active Member
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- 1,808
Preston what have you found during your scouting trips
I will more than likely be in that general area 9/12 - 9/16
let me know.
Gordy
I will more than likely be in that general area 9/12 - 9/16
let me know.
Gordy
U
utahheadgear
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-05 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]Antler,
You are missing the point. The point is that it makes no difference if every single archery hunter in the state is hunting the southern units because they are not significantly impacting the deer herds. The current buck to doe ratios prove this to be true. The real stink has nothing to do with the health of the deer herd, because there is nothing that proves that archery hunters are negatively impacting the deer herds. The real stink comes from the belly aching, greedy, whining, southern hunters that are pissed because someone from Salt Lake City showed up in "their" hunting spot. That's it! There is nothing more to it than that. You don't see me bitching about how people from the south come north and kill all "my" deer on the Extended. Why? Because the fact is, they don't kill all the deer. They do come and hunt, and the unit is damn crowded, but they don't hurt the herd. It's the same issue here.
If buck to doe ratios in those regions begin to decline, the DWR will take the needed steps to fix the problem. They haven't, because they don't need to. For now they are making steps in the right direction by using the statewide archery hunt to entice more hunters into bowhunting so that they don't have to take the other option, which is cutting permit numbers.
I for one would much rather hunt with a bow than sit home and wish I had a tag.
You are missing the point. The point is that it makes no difference if every single archery hunter in the state is hunting the southern units because they are not significantly impacting the deer herds. The current buck to doe ratios prove this to be true. The real stink has nothing to do with the health of the deer herd, because there is nothing that proves that archery hunters are negatively impacting the deer herds. The real stink comes from the belly aching, greedy, whining, southern hunters that are pissed because someone from Salt Lake City showed up in "their" hunting spot. That's it! There is nothing more to it than that. You don't see me bitching about how people from the south come north and kill all "my" deer on the Extended. Why? Because the fact is, they don't kill all the deer. They do come and hunt, and the unit is damn crowded, but they don't hurt the herd. It's the same issue here.
If buck to doe ratios in those regions begin to decline, the DWR will take the needed steps to fix the problem. They haven't, because they don't need to. For now they are making steps in the right direction by using the statewide archery hunt to entice more hunters into bowhunting so that they don't have to take the other option, which is cutting permit numbers.
I for one would much rather hunt with a bow than sit home and wish I had a tag.
U
utahheadgear
Guest
I've found 400" bulls and 190" bucks around every tree, and wouldn't you know it, there's not a single damn bowhunter anywhere to be seen. After all, this is the Northern part of the state. No one hunts up here.
Utahheadgear
You asked for a fact. I can't prove how many archery hunters hunt the southern region anymore than you can. As for not significantly impacting the southern herd your right, I never said it did. but back to my point its hard to get harvest information on a certian region for any hunt if it is a statewide region. My reasoning for having five region is for better game management and more accurate harvest statistics not to denie you or anyone else the oppertunity hunt the southern region.
As for being pissed off about people from northern utah coming down here to hunt I don't know where you got that either. Over half of the people I hunt with are from northern utah. Last time I was in the hills I couldn't tell where anyone was from they all dressed alike.
Like I said before I take advantage of the system the way it is that dosen't mean I have agree with it or you.
You asked for a fact. I can't prove how many archery hunters hunt the southern region anymore than you can. As for not significantly impacting the southern herd your right, I never said it did. but back to my point its hard to get harvest information on a certian region for any hunt if it is a statewide region. My reasoning for having five region is for better game management and more accurate harvest statistics not to denie you or anyone else the oppertunity hunt the southern region.
As for being pissed off about people from northern utah coming down here to hunt I don't know where you got that either. Over half of the people I hunt with are from northern utah. Last time I was in the hills I couldn't tell where anyone was from they all dressed alike.
Like I said before I take advantage of the system the way it is that dosen't mean I have agree with it or you.
c3
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,118
Here are the numbers from the Annual reports of how many Dedicated hunters claimed they archery deer hunted.
1997 = 525 (13445 archery permits sold)
1998 = 941 (12661 archery permits sold)
1999 = 1906 (10802 archery permits sold)
2000 = 1217 = (11784 archery permits sold)
The above numbers are roughly 29% of total Dedicated hunters for each year.
They didn't do annual reports after this so we don't have these numbers any more.
So if we extrapolate the 29% out to todays 8500 or so DH we get roughly 2500 DH who are archery hunting the last few years.
Needless to say the number ain't going to be even half that 35,000 when we add it all up. By the way back in 1974 there were 25,000 something archery hunters.
There is a big difference these days though. The archery hunters who are into it are way more hardcore than they were in years past. We are pushing further and further back into the hills after bucks and bulls. We are having to work it all the harder to find and hunt the deer with a bow and arrow. I thinks this is what people are seeing.
Keep in touch Preston and let me know how things are treating you down there these days
Cheers,
Pete
1997 = 525 (13445 archery permits sold)
1998 = 941 (12661 archery permits sold)
1999 = 1906 (10802 archery permits sold)
2000 = 1217 = (11784 archery permits sold)
The above numbers are roughly 29% of total Dedicated hunters for each year.
They didn't do annual reports after this so we don't have these numbers any more.
So if we extrapolate the 29% out to todays 8500 or so DH we get roughly 2500 DH who are archery hunting the last few years.
Needless to say the number ain't going to be even half that 35,000 when we add it all up. By the way back in 1974 there were 25,000 something archery hunters.
There is a big difference these days though. The archery hunters who are into it are way more hardcore than they were in years past. We are pushing further and further back into the hills after bucks and bulls. We are having to work it all the harder to find and hunt the deer with a bow and arrow. I thinks this is what people are seeing.
Keep in touch Preston and let me know how things are treating you down there these days
Cheers,
Pete
LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-05 AT 05:58PM (MST)[p]UT- One last time. Go back and read my threads. Never once did I refer to any region. I was just pointing out the fact that there are not only 16,000 archers in Utah. You are pulling things from the air when you refer to me stating the South gets pounded.
My numbers are right for POSSIBLE archers hunting in Utah. There are 16,000 archery tags, 8,000+- Dedicated Hunter tags, and 10,000-20,000 Youth Rifle tags which allow them to archery hunt. All those tags are good for the holder to archery hunt. Don't tell me you would dispute those numbers.?.
I just beleive that there should be checks and balances. One of those should be that archery tags should be given out by region. Archers, Dedicated Hunters, and Youth. You have your opinion and I have mine. If you can't comprehend what I have stated then there is no need to talk of this further.
By the way, are you the same Preston who always speaks at the RACS?
My numbers are right for POSSIBLE archers hunting in Utah. There are 16,000 archery tags, 8,000+- Dedicated Hunter tags, and 10,000-20,000 Youth Rifle tags which allow them to archery hunt. All those tags are good for the holder to archery hunt. Don't tell me you would dispute those numbers.?.
I just beleive that there should be checks and balances. One of those should be that archery tags should be given out by region. Archers, Dedicated Hunters, and Youth. You have your opinion and I have mine. If you can't comprehend what I have stated then there is no need to talk of this further.
By the way, are you the same Preston who always speaks at the RACS?
D
DallanC
Guest
>Needless to say the number ain't
>going to be even half
>that 35,000 when we add
>it all up. By
>the way back in 1974
>there were 25,000 something archery
>hunters.
Yea and it was actually a 2nd tag you could get along side your rifle tag to shoot 2 bucks per year. Alot of people did it just so they could get 2 deer per year. Once it ceased being a tag all by itself the number of archers fell.
>There is a big difference these
>days though. The archery
>hunters who are into it
>are way more hardcore than
>they were in years past.
Yes I would agree todays archers are generally more hardcore... but not all. We are currently seeing many new archers entering the field because its now the only way they can hunt when they fail to draw their general rifle / ML tags.
> We are pushing further
>and further back into the
>hills after bucks and bulls.
> We are having to
>work it all the harder
>to find and hunt the
>deer with a bow and
>arrow. I thinks this
>is what people are seeing.
Compared to rifle hunting? I'd agree... compared to archery of 1974? No way... technological advancements have made archery much easier than it was (not saying it has become an easy sport yet... but a new off the shelf Bowtech or Hoyt with its carbon arrows, drop away rests will blow the doors off any bow from 1974. Then lets factor in rangefinders, sentlok suits etc etc. Except for the few recurve guys todays archers have it made over archers of old.
-DallanC
>going to be even half
>that 35,000 when we add
>it all up. By
>the way back in 1974
>there were 25,000 something archery
>hunters.
Yea and it was actually a 2nd tag you could get along side your rifle tag to shoot 2 bucks per year. Alot of people did it just so they could get 2 deer per year. Once it ceased being a tag all by itself the number of archers fell.
>There is a big difference these
>days though. The archery
>hunters who are into it
>are way more hardcore than
>they were in years past.
Yes I would agree todays archers are generally more hardcore... but not all. We are currently seeing many new archers entering the field because its now the only way they can hunt when they fail to draw their general rifle / ML tags.
> We are pushing further
>and further back into the
>hills after bucks and bulls.
> We are having to
>work it all the harder
>to find and hunt the
>deer with a bow and
>arrow. I thinks this
>is what people are seeing.
Compared to rifle hunting? I'd agree... compared to archery of 1974? No way... technological advancements have made archery much easier than it was (not saying it has become an easy sport yet... but a new off the shelf Bowtech or Hoyt with its carbon arrows, drop away rests will blow the doors off any bow from 1974. Then lets factor in rangefinders, sentlok suits etc etc. Except for the few recurve guys todays archers have it made over archers of old.
-DallanC
These posts always crack me up.
You guys pointing the fingers need to chill out. We are all lucky to be able to hunt regardless of weapon choice. We all were beginners at one point, everyone had to learn things just like you did and we all have out of state hunters flooding in...
And all the talk of how hard it is today, try a little searching back into history. Read a little reporting from Teddy Roosevelt or the Lewis and Clark expeditions. Those were hard days, no compound bows, no high power mag rifles, no polarguard, no synthetic fleece, no 20 x 80 glasses, no guides or outfitters catering only to the wealthy and "lazy hunters". It was every man(or woman) for themselves and if you were tough enough and could get out and survive, the hunting was truley spectacular.
Now back to reality...
You guys pointing the fingers need to chill out. We are all lucky to be able to hunt regardless of weapon choice. We all were beginners at one point, everyone had to learn things just like you did and we all have out of state hunters flooding in...
And all the talk of how hard it is today, try a little searching back into history. Read a little reporting from Teddy Roosevelt or the Lewis and Clark expeditions. Those were hard days, no compound bows, no high power mag rifles, no polarguard, no synthetic fleece, no 20 x 80 glasses, no guides or outfitters catering only to the wealthy and "lazy hunters". It was every man(or woman) for themselves and if you were tough enough and could get out and survive, the hunting was truley spectacular.
Now back to reality...
