Antelope Island Information

M

mstyler

Guest
I have seen quite a few comments about Antelope Island on MM and thought I could share some information that might be of interest.
Antelope Island is approximately 28,000 acres (close to the size of Tabby Mountain). It is more of a peninsula now, with low water connecting it to land on the South.

There is already a Bison hunt there with 5-6 bulls taken per year. The Island produces about 200-220 bison calves per year which are rounded up and sold as yearlings. Most of the yearlings go to feedlots where they are fattened and butchered.
There are antelope, deer and California bighorns that have been either transplanted or historically found on the Island.

The deer herd has around 90 mature bucks. Last spring, at least 6 mature bucks walked off the island into the Syracuse area and at least 2 were hit by cars.

There are between 30-40 mature Bighorn Rams. The sheep have been used as a nursery herd and ewes and lambs have been the main transplant crop. Last year, rams were targeted for transplant bringing the sex ratio more into balance. Transplants operations are very costly and DWR has suggested that hunting is a reasonable way to remove sheep in order to keep the herd from growing to the size where it is susceptible to disease.

Divison of State Parks own the private Bison Herd.
Divsion of Wildlife Resources are responsible for all other wildlife on the Island but cooperate with Parks with a MOU.
The current legislative proposal for hunting on the Island will be left to DWR and State Parks to work out. It will be a one year "experiment" at this point.

We envision allowing State parks to sell one Deer permit and one Bighorn permit somewhat similar to a landowner tag with the proceeds being reinvested into habitat on the Island.
We would also envision putting one Deer permit and one Bighorn permit into the public draw one year from now.
The Bison hunt has not been a problem on the Island since the hunt takes place discreetly at a time of year when few visitors are on the Island.
The same should take place for Deer and Bighorn hunts. Viewable wildlife opportunities should not be affected since the big bucks and big rams rarely (in daylight hours) come down out of the cliffs and peaks.
The State Statute for Antelope Island calls for it to be managed under multiple use concepts and I believe hunting is an acceptable multiple use.
All Divisions of Natural Resources are working hard to cut costs while maximizing recreation opportunities. I believe this experiment will be succesful and provide some unique opportunities.
I hunted the Pausugunt 3 years ago and was guided by Rep. Michael Noel of Kanab for a couple of days. He is on our Natural Resources appropriation committee. He probably got the idea for an Antelope Island hunt from me, and in this tight budget year wanted to help out our Department by suggesting this experiment. I think we can make it work.
Hope this helps in giving you some background about this proposal.
Mike Styler
Director
Utah Department of Natural Resources
 
I think the whole proposal sucks mikey boy. Expecialy the part where you rub the pausugunt tag in.
 
Hello Mike,

Thanks a bunch for coming on and sharing some info. with us all. In all reality, I don't really have a problem with hunting on the Island, but I sure am tired of more and more auction tags. WE HAVE ENOUGH ALREADY!!! I know they raise lots of money, but you know we could still raise many thousands of dollars by having 4 DRAW ONLY tags out there. Sure, maybe not as much money would be raised with a draw as with an auction, but the draw only option is the RIGHT thing to do. Those tags should be available to everyone. Half should not go to the rich dudes only.

My understanding is that the Island is visited by nearly 250,000 people each year. You all want to raise $250k for the island, then put 4 tags in a draw and sportsmen will supply $60 - $80k and then increase entry fees to the Island from $9 to $10 or $12 and you have your money. There are other solutions that don't include more auction tags. More and more auction tags are just the easy way because it takes little effort and little thinking because the vast majority of sportsmen in this state will not say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

If you're reading this Don Peay, I really wish you would go to work for the sportsmen on this one....and I don't mean those two rich sportsmen who might buy those two tags. I know you can steer this in any direction, and it needs to be steered towards 4 DRAW ONLY tags, then let them figure out how to get the other chunk of dollars they need.
If there are going to be tags issued to hunt deer and sheep on that Island, it is my opinion that ALL should be available for ALL sportsmen.
NO MORE AUCTION TAGS!!!! Selling our hunting opportunities is not the solution to fixing the Antelope Island issues or any of the issues with funding state agencies.

We have enough auction tags already. I sure hope the general sportsmen can pull together and put their foot down. NO MORE AUCTION TAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - Did I say, NO MORE AUCTION TAGS!!!!!!!!!! Does any other hunter in this state agree with me?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian, I am also not in your state, but agree with you 100%.

Do a raffle for all four tags, $ 25.00 per chance, no limit on number of chances, purchase online, draw the 4 winners out of a big barrel on one of the nights of the convention, winners DON'T need to be present to win. Given the quality of the tag, I would guess the money raised would certainly equal, if not exceed, what an auction would bring.

Scoutdog
 
Personally I haven't read every thread on Antelope Island but I think it was Yelum who said it's ok to have a non-hunted deer herd?? I think, as far as Antelope Island is concerned, it should either be ZERO tags or 4 DRAW tags that all sportsman can apply for. I agree 100% that we have far to many auction tags in the state already and there should be no more added!! Find another way to raise money!! Auctions are NOT the only solution...

~Z~
 
Agree 100% Let the rich people pay for the governors tag, or fly to Sonora and pay 10,000.00$ for a big buck if they want. There's plenty of places for them to "buy a buck". Give the normal sportsman a chance.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-10 AT 08:16AM (MST)[p]First, While I may not agree with his stance, I commend Dr Styler for taking the time to respond to concerns. I doubt he has the time to respond to this post but just in the off-chance he reads this again---

If you guys get bighorn and deer hunts then I want a CHUCKAR hunt.
 
Screw the auction tags. We don't want to see anymore auction tags. The general public is sick of these auction tags!

What type of habitat are your trying to improve. The concrete bathrooms, roads? How about a pay raise or some other kind of kick back from SFW?

All these auction tags make me sick!!

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Mike,
First of all, not every hunter in the state wants to bad mouth you or the division for how things are going. Having seen the other end of things from 30 years ago, I would say we have come a long way in the great state of Utah and you guys are a big part of that. So thanks for your hard work in an apparently thankless job.
Quite frankly, I have pretty much stopped commenting on this section of the forum because of all the negativity. I will say, that I support the proposal for a hunt to help the island generate funds, so they don't have to come out of my pocket in the way of taxes. It appears that animals are dying out there from old age anyway and if something is not done to control them, nature will do it's thing in a not so pretty way.
I personally don't feel entitled to hunt the island, and I don't think most hunters do. But the island is a great resource and anything we can do to help maintain that in the way of controlling animal herds and improving habitat, I am all for.
Thanks for all you do.
 
Great read Mike, thanks for sharing it. It was very informative. The hunt is niether right nor wrong, its just an option with varying opinions for several different reasons. Which ever way it works out, I hope its for the betterment of the island.

Yelum
 
I am all for IT!


We should also open up all other State Parks, and try to get our National Parks open.

I would love to see Zions Park open for Sheep. The money would really help the park. The sheep there are dieing of old age, that is just a shame.


I would love to bid on a Buffalo Tag for Yellowstone, I hear the Park is running in the Red.

I would also like to see the "Rest Ponds" on all of our waterfowl reserves be opened up to those that make a significant donation to the reserve. The roads suck out there, this could really help

In Salt Lake city, I would support bowhunting permits being sold by homeowners, when some of those large bucks get on their property. This would help perceptions, and give homeowners a much needed financial boost in these tough times.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-10 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]>I am all for IT!
>
>
>We should also open up all
>other State Parks, and try
>to get our National Parks
>open.
>
>I would love to see Zions
>Park open for Sheep. The
>money would really help the
>park. The sheep there are
>dieing of old age, that
>is just a shame.
>
>
>I would love to bid on
>a Buffalo Tag for Yellowstone,
>I hear the Park is
>running in the Red.
>
>I would also like to see
>the "Rest Ponds" on all
>of our waterfowl reserves be
>opened up to those that
>make a significant donation to
>the reserve. The roads suck
>out there, this could really
>help
>
>In Salt Lake city, I would
>support bowhunting permits being
>sold by homeowners, when some
>of those large bucks get
>on their property. This would
>help perceptions, and give homeowners
>a much needed financial boost
>in these tough times.

I think all hunters would like the same thing. However all they are allowing is the rich and giving the blue collar guy the finger.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Brian,
I appreciate your feelings on this. Please help me understand something? Basically all the landowner tags and even CWMU tags can be marketed any way the owner wants-including auctions. Are you opposed to any increase of those tags too?
In the case of Antelope Island, Utah statute prohibits a raffle. We have explored all the other revenue increases you suggest and others too. If we don't have a successful experiment this one time, there will probably not be future hunting opportunity for anybody throught the draw or landowner tag(excepting Bison).
By the way, I forgot to mention in my first post: Antelope Island is loosing around $400,000 per year.


Thanks,
Mike
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-10 AT 09:58AM (MST)[p]sounds like one more government project loosing money. What does it take to get a government program to run under funds?

Well when the company I work for started going in the red they cut all the employees pay by 10% and send us home when there isn't any work. they said if you don't like it you can always get another job. Well guess what there are no other jobs right now so I am just happy to be employed. Believe me it hurts when your pay is cut in half. They also put a freeze on purchasing anything.

Government is the only thing that doesn't operate this way. they continue to borrow money and get further in the hole.

Seriously I have been on that island and there is basically nothing on that island. "exaggeration"- For the life of me I cant see how you cant run that island with less than 400,000 a year let alone go in the hole 400,000 a year.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Let me start by saying I am against the number of auction tags in Utah. When I was a Utah resident I tried to fight them. I was at the RAC when the Convention Tags were discussed and I was very public about my aversion to any more tags. I have volunteered more hours than I can count with one of the national conservation groups... However, I no longer have a dog in the fight in Utah for the Utah resident tags which the AI tags should be.

I know money is tight all over the country right now and people are looking for new ways to generate revenue. AI auction tags could raise a lot of money but at what cost. I think Founder has raised some great questions. Utah gives tags to Conservation Organizations, the Convention, Land Owners, CWMU and now there are reports that cattle leases might get tags. Where will Utah stop? Don says that Conservation Tags are limited to 5%. However, new tags are being taken from the general public in Utah at every turn. I wonder if the Conservation Orgs will assist the Cattle Lease people with the distribution of their new tags. They would not be Conservation Tags but I am guessing the Conservation Orgs will be involved in the distribution. Now the AI Park needs money so they want to get tags to sell. I would be willing to bet that again the conservation Orgs (or people associated with them) will have a hand in the selling of the AI tags. This is a slippery slope and it looks like Utah is going to take a running jump onto that slope.

I think that the residents of Utah should be allowed to benefit from their state resources. If Utah residents want to allow the state park system to sell tags to raise money (I would be worried about the slippery slope) than what would people think about making it a raffle for the tags. Any resident could buy as many raffle tags as they wanted. It would give every resident a chance and could generate a lot of money. Make each raffle tag $25.00. I would imagine that the number of people who put in for the Sportsman Tag could be used a gauge to help predict what money could be raised. Other states raffle off tags every year and the raffles generate a lot of money. There is good information available as to how much money could be generated by the raffle. It would raise the money desired; give the resident hunters the chance they deserve to hunt the island.

Don this would be a great fight for SFW to champion. Please stand up and publicly fight for the ?average Joe? in Utah to be allowed to hunt on AI. Why not keep a special place in Utah just to Utah residents? I have been vocal about my opposition to SFW but if SFW (i.e. Don) would be willing to fight for this I know it would go a long way to help SFW?s image with the ?average Joe.?

What does everybody think?
 
>Utah statute prohibits a raffle.

>Thanks,
>Mike

So how does SFW get away with the raffle tags you pay 5 bucks for at the expo?


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Its a Jedi Mind Trick.......Don waves his hand and says "this is not a raffle". People blink a couple of times and agree.


respect my authorita
 
I forgot about the no raffle rule in Utah. How about making it a special draw wherein all proceeds from the draw go to AI? Might be splitting hairs but...Or how about every person who buys a $25.00/day park pass is put into a special drawing for the hunts.

If that's the way the Utah Residents want to go, than there must be a way to generate the money without selling Utah's wildlife to the rich.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-10 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]mstyler how about this Idea.

leave SFW out of the picture and auction a tag or two held by U. This way you get 100% of the revenue. you then have a drawing like the raffle swf does and allow blue collar people an opportunity at the tags. you get 100% of the money to run the island.

and I would bet most 80-90% of the public will go along with it. who knows you might also get thousands of treehuggers to put in for the drawing and then not hunt saving a few deer. either way you get all the money.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
In a number of threads there has been asked for solutions, so here is an out of the box idea. Hopefully it won't be discounted because it does not fit the norm for determining how "best" to use these high dollar permits.

From Director Stylers post and precendents already set hopefully one of each species tag will be offered in year one and the second in year two. Instead of using year one for the auction tag and year two for the public tag reverse the order. Put an application value on the tag (unrestricted application/similar to many atates super tags) and then hold a drawing similar to the Sportsman's or Convention tag draws, if sufficient revenue is generated keep the tags a public drawing and do away with the auction. If a short fall is incurred then the sportsman have spoken and a need to auction is evident to generate revenue and the second years tag could be auctioned in year one but not be allowed to hunt until year two. If the draw generates needed revenue hold a AI draw for year two doing away with a need for auction permits. I was raised with the attitude where there is a will there is a way. I believe auctioning the AI tags is the lazy mans way of protecting the publics interest.

I am still fearfull of where the AI hunts will lead and question the need for the hunts. Hunting deer and sheep on the Island is hardly comparable to hunting the buffalo where a park employee is able to drive you out at a predetermined time and shoot the predetermined buffalo. I believe the deer and sheep hunts may resemble more of a hunt than the buffalo harvest.

I can about guarantee you a number of the volunteer patrol on the island is going to go beserk over this hunt if my conversations with them have been any idication.
 
Mike - mstyler - I don't know what you are talking about with the landowner tags and CWMU tags. I am opposed to more autction tags....tags that could just as easily be given to every sportsmen, but instead auctioned off to the highest bidder.

Instead of "experimenting" with auction tags on this one, let's experiment with 4 DRAW ONLY tags, a park fee increase, and tax increase.

Most, if not all, state parks in Utah loose money. A solution for fixing the whole problem is needed. This bandaid you're pushing for Antelope Island is wrong.

We might not be able to have a "raffle", but a $10 draw that allows people to apply seperately for all 4 tags could be done. Although I do believe auction tags would raise more money, I think the DRAW ONLY option could still fetch as much as $100,000 for the the Island. Use that as the experiment.

We have enough auction tags in this state. Selling hunting opportunities to the rich in this state is growing out of control. NO MORE AUCTION TAGS!!! Find another way.

PS - Don, as you said, you have been told, "you are very creative and good at raising money". Well, please, go to bat for the 99% of sportsmen you represent and find a way, OTHER THAN auctioning off tags, to fix this issue. THERE HAS GOT TO BE ANOTHER OPTION OTHER THAN AUCTION TAGS!!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
There are about 200-300 people paying $25 per person per year to go look for shed antlers on the Island. Put two tags in the general draw to HUNT deer and how many people do you think will put in for it? It's one thing to pick up antlers, but when you have the chance to actually hunt one of those Islanders, PEOPLE WILL APPLY!!!
Add a drawing for a chukar hunt and charge another $25 per person for that draw.
Add a drawing for a (Much Needed) predator hunt and charge another $25 per person.
There are plenty of ways to boost revenue. Why sell a tag to some guy that just wants a 225 buck on his wall because he only has two bucks over 200 and he needs three to take the space on wall. Rich people don't care, they just want to spend money cause they have it.
Why not make some average joes the happiest guys in the world by letting them shoot some predators and birds on the Island, And have a chance at a huge buck if they draw???
Selling tags to the Rich is just an easy way out. There are far better things we can do here people.
 
I'll rephrase this discussion a little:

Dear Utah sportsmen,

We want more money, and you have a lot of tags. We can make a lot more money by taking those tags and selling them at the expo or at auction. Basically it means less opportunity for you and more money for us (unless of course you are rich and can buy what we sell you). We cannot guarantee any of this money will hit the ground, but it will help us balance our budget and pay some bills. Is this ok with you?

Love,

The DWR, SFW, MDF, etc, etc, etc
 
There is a difference between Private Lands/CWMUs and Public Property. If the stewards of Utah Public Lands and Public Wildlife can not understand that then we are in trouble.

If Antelope Island is loosing $400,000 every year then they are not auctioning off these tags for habitat (as was previously stated), rather they are looking at using the moneys to pay for existing expenses.

To be honest, I liked what Dax, a UDWR biologist, explained about the need for a sheep hunt. I buy that argument for a sheep hunt and would support it, but there needs to be public opportunity. Or are they just the King's sheep?
 
++++1 Bryan. No more auction tags. I think we have more than we should have already and i personally have not seen a direct benifit for the average sportsman in Utah since auction tag number have gone through the roof.
 
All I hear on this post is ME ME ME ME. The original post was great information about why a hunt is necessary. If an auction tag is needed to raise money to justify a second Public tag, I am all for it. That's one more public tag than we had out there before. To many people quickly forget the MAJOR increase in public tags we have had in the last 10 years. (Especially OIL tags) Also the MAJOR improvement our elk and deer quality has seen. 15 years ago we had 1 B&C Elk in the history of our state. How many do we have now. We are all fools to think these auctions, conservation tags, etc. have not been a major part of that. I am no different from everyone else on here. I am not a rich guy that could afford one of these tags but I am smart enough to realize the good that has come from these tags and if the biologists out there determine we need an auction tag to justify a public tag then I support them. Again lets look at the positive one more premium deer tag and one more premium sheep tag for the average joe!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
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Jason,

I do not believe the increase in tags state wide has been a topic on this thread, no one is complaining about that, we have more tags, Great.

Mike made a nice post, but it did not, tell us "why we need a hunt", it told us what the justifications were for a hunt, those are different topics.
We do not NEED a hunt on Antelope Island.

What we do know, is what has been proposed:
-Auction tags for next year.
-Evaluation for other tags the following year. EVALUATON
-On a State Park.

Like I said on a different post: "Let's open up Zions Park, Yellowstone Park, The Rest Ponds at Farmington Bay.....

Let's do it so there is more opportunity for the guy that can outbid others on a tag, but let's do it in the name of "They could use the money"

The next post usually is: Your Jealous, guess what I am not. I could buy about any tag in the state if I wanted.

I am just tired of these tags being taken out of the General pool...540 of them. I am sick of the Politics, the opportunity for corruption, and the tags being not available to everyone.

Now we are proposing more! With the justification being we need the money at the Park. It will never end unless we start standing up and fighting.
 
Jason,
I'm with you on this one. Why don't we have a hunt on Antelope Island? Why are we wasting a valuable resource that could be used to benefit either the island wildlife program, and or wildlife around the state?

Bryan, I don't like your idea about increasing park entrance fees and adding more taxes. You sound like a democrat. "just add more tax" I for one am sick of more taxes. Once they add the tax, it never goes away. Why not let the resource generate revenue instead of more damn taxation? If a resource can be used to pay for itself plus pay for other things why not do that instead of tax and more fees to people who don't use the resource? Make the people who want to participate pay for it.

I also think you guys are too stubborn to admit that the wildlife in the state of Utah is being taken care of better now than it's ever been. There are more herds, more animals, and more opportunities to hunt now than we've had before, and it's because groups of sportsmen have got together and made political changes. Bash these groups all you want, but in the end they will be supporting wildlife, and more importantly making sure the Fish and Game doesn't screw it up more than they already have.

DeerBeDead
 
DEERBEDEAD " Founder sounds like a DEMOCRAT" ??? Are ya kidding me??? He's not the one with his hand out asking to be subsidized by a publicly owned resource!!!

Is there nothing any of you would not consider FOR SALE??

Personally I'm getting pretty damn sick and tired of hearing
about socialism from some while they are being subsidized
by over 500 of the publics permits. Staying with non democrat values let the free market work itself out here. If these parks
keep losing money let them fail... Close everyone of these sumbitches... Also keeping with the non democratic train of thought
don't come take what I own and work for to bail these people out. My taxes and MY DAMN PUBLIC HUNTING OPPORTUNITIES. Freaking Socialists!!

HYPOCRITES!!!
 
>Wiley,
>
>I am nominating that for post
>of the century on Monster
>Muleys!
>
>Your are spot on.


that also deserves another vote.

If people dont get a sniff soon Utah will be the only state you have to compete in an auction to get a tag. The way things are going Utahs hunting will soon be just like England's hunting. Guess what those tards pay tens of thousands a year just to fish and hunt birds.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Bowhunt,
In your post you admit that there are more tags than ever before but then just say great and move on. That is the WHOLE point I made. There are more tags WHY???? Did these extra sheep, goats, buffalo, elk, deer just magically appear in the state of Utah? 10 years ago did our genetics just magically increase and we started producing B&C elk even though it had never happened before in the state? How are the tag numbers magically going up????? Does anyone have an answer other than these conservation groups and money raised through these auctions??? IF SOMEONE HAS AN ANSWER TO WHERE ALL THE MAGIC IS COMING FROM PLEASE TELL ME!!!! In all these posts I have yet to hear anyone say how all these things magically happened. If it was not SFW, FNAWS, MDF what was it? If it was not the money being raised by Auction tags then what was it???? SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER?????
I personally get sick of Utah sportsman that think this state owes everyone a 400" bull and a 200" deer and a every species of OIL. Why do we all think we are ENTITLED to these priveleges???? All I know is 10-15 years ago NOBODY got a 400" bull in the entire history of the state! There are also 5 times more opportunity for OIL tags! Mule deer hunting is on the rise. What else to you GUYS WANT!!!!! I am an eternal optomist and I SEE OPPORTUNITY ALL AROUND ME AND I AM GRATEFUL FOR IT!!! Maybe a few others ought to try it!!!!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
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Since when was there a "Public Hunting Opportunity" on Antelope Island? I never heard of one!!Can't take away something that never existed. Since when do you own a state park? I have hunted my whole life and I have never once felt like I OWN any wildlife.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Jason it has noting to do with sfw it has everything to do with the division never giving out tags like they should have been doing. The elk were basically allowed to grow out of control.

Jason would you rather hunt a unit like the front every year or only hunt deer every 10 for the type of quality we see? I would rather have a tag every year.

There are other ways of managing these herds then pimping them out. I was a fan of sfw in years past. I however have reached my limit. They have over stepped and gotten greedy. they also have to much power in this state and when one hunting group gets this much power the majority of hunters suffer.



4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
Mike thanks for the info,good stuff.As usually I have a question. Instead of selling the yearlings to the butcher shop why not sell to other states to start a bison herd or shore up an existing one?

Thanks for your time.

Joe E Sikora
 
mike just proven that utah is all they want is money .you dont care about sportsmen . far as that goes give tags to average joes. give buffalo to book cliffs we would love hunt them in are lifetime or maybe are kids. manage for wildlife not money.!!!!!
 
Jason,

You will note from the posts above, that the topic is "Hunting on Antelope Island" not "Has SFW saved hunting in Utah"

I am sure SFW has contributed, but now it is out of hand. 540 tags is too many, proposing hunting State Parks is wrong.

Jason,
Do you oppose a hunt in Zions Park, Yellowstone, Dead Horse State Park, Goblin Valley...if so why would you oppose them. The money would be great.
Can you really feel good about the first proposal being a: locked down bidding process?????

Do you do any guiding Jason? It seems like those are the only people that want this. Those that guide, or those that can sell it.

You say you are sick of "all about me me me" take a look in the mirror. I am saying NO hunt, don't just bid...if it is going to happen have it for everyone, yeah that is me me me.

SW is right on, we stopped shooting elk, and the herds grew.
Habitat improvement, auction tags, and chest pounding did not make it happen.
 
>SW is right on, we stopped
>shooting elk, and the herds
>grew.
>Habitat improvement, auction tags, and chest
>pounding did not make it
>happen.

Well said! I concur.
 
Jason.. You do own wildlife... Just like me, my kids, your kids and all Utahn's.

Mike and the DWR are part of what is called WAFWA this is a group of game agencies in the west. They abide by the seven sisters of North American Wildlife Management:

Sister #1: The Public Trust
In North America, natural resources on public lands are managed by government agencies to ensure that we always have wildlife and wild places to enjoy.

Sister #2: Prohibition on Commerce of Dead Wildlife
Conservation laws and their strong enforcement in the United States and Canada saved wildlife from slaughter.

Sister #3: Democratic Rule of Law
You can help make laws to regulate hunting and fishing and conserve wildlife.

Every citizen of the United States and Canadian has the right to help create laws to conserve and manage wild animals and their habitats. Government agencies that manage our natural resources provide citizens with public forums to share ideas and opinions about wildlife and habitat. Citizens can also vote for or against ballot measures that impact wildlife.

Sister #4: Hunting Opportunity for All
Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada.

Regardless of your social status, race, creed, religion or gender, you have the right to legally hunt and fish on most public lands in North America.

Hunters and anglers led the crusade for wildlife protection a century ago. For instance, before Theodore Roosevelt became president, he helped found the Boone and Crockett Club. The club?s Fair Chase Statement was the first document outlining a code of conduct and ethics for hunters and anglers. It became a cornerstone of our game laws.

Sister #5: Non-frivolous Use
In North America, we can legally kill certain wild animals under strict guidelines for food and fur, self-defense and property protection.

Sister #6: International Resources
Wildlife and fish migrate freely across boundaries between states, provinces and countries.

Sister #7: Scientific Management
The right information helps us make good decisions and become better stewards of wildlife.

Which one of these would you like to start with first???




*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
No I don't guide at all so throw that idea out the window. As far as the US Wildlife statutes or whatever I never saw anywhere that said you own the wildlife. You are just lucky enough to help manage them and hunt them.
Look fellas I have no association with SFW and gain nothing financially along the lines of guiding from these tags. I am not affiliated with a CWMU. I am a regular guy that loves to hunt just like you. 540 tags is just a number. Compared to what? If it was 540 out of 1000 tags thats way to many? If it is 540 out of 5000 that is still to many. But 540 is only about 5% of our tags and from the progress we have seen in the last ten years I think it is a sacrifice we all should make.
To think that our elk quality increased without the help of these dollars is crazy! (99% of the time I think SW is spot on but not on this) Where did all the new sheep, goats, buffalo come from. Whether we like it or not MONEY TALKS!! In the legislature and everywhere else. IT TAKES MONEY TO DO THESE PROJECTS!!!! WE CANT FOOL OURSELVES INTO THINKING THAT BIGHORN SHEEP AND MOUNTAIN GOATS AND BIG ELK AND MOOSE AND BUFFALO ARE FREE!!!! MONEY GETS THINGS DONE and I am willing to sacrifice a percentage of our tags to make sure our herds continue to grow!!!!!


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LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 11:06AM (MST)[p]Jason,
You just stated in post 37 that we don't own the herds in the state and then call for us to sacrifice our tags so our herds can grow. Which is it? Maybe it depends on which argument you are trying to defend.
We the hunters of Utah "own" the animals and pay to manage them. What do you think all our tag fees, licenses, and taxes pay for?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 11:40AM (MST)[p]I was willing to sacrifice some tags as well. I liked the projects. I never had a problem until they kept taking tags. They seem to have the philosophy if they take more tags the hunting will be better attitude. Well it will for some rich guy but not for me. I end up sacrificing years off my life not hunting. SFW has gone to far! Then when you get into the political side if things it make you sick to see what they get away with.

Jason
I don't have the resources to do the type of hunt you do. You are a very good hunter and seem to be able to hunt multiple hunts in other states and countries. You are also very successful. I love reading your posts and seeing you pictures. I am a big fan of yours. This allows you a lot more opportunity then it does for me. This is why you will have a different outlook on Utah then I do. I am very protective and outspoken when it comes to Utah because it is really all I have. I love to hunt and want to hunt every year. The way SFW is going they are going to take that away from me and my kids.

There are better ways to manage for opportunity and quality in this state. You hunt one of them every year.

I don't have a problem with the state selling their own tags on antelope island but there better be something for the average guy and SFW better not benefit in any way. I don't have a problem with the state selling those stupid mustangs in the desert to the french for money either. I don't have a problem with this state opening up the national parks to hunters one week of the year either. the Greenies can go pound sand if it were up to me.
 
SW - You and I would both love the state to manage more along the lines of the Wasatch Front...WITH ARCHERY EQUIPMENT!! I would love to see that happen but unfortunately we are the minority. It is probably not going to happen on a large scale. I will admit I personally don't care so much about our elk hunting. I think it is great but I have always enjoyed deer hunting more and Scott we do get the opportunity to hunt big deer every year so what more do you want. I am personally more interested in getting more OIL tags for our state and that costs $$$$$. All these new herds popping up are creating new opportunities. I am personally happy with our current deer hunting especially as an archer. But even on a rifle discussion I think it is improving. I took my wife out for her first ever hunt two years ago on a general deer tag and she killed a 174" buck. I know that 170"+ bucks are not around every corner but they are there for a guy that hunts hard and gets away from the roads. I just think that we all have short term memory block about what things were like 10 years ago. Litterally we did not have a 400" elk to our name. We had 1000 OIL and now we have 5000! Those things don't just happen by DWR reducing tags. Quality has improved and new herds are created by expensive transplants and aggresive management. The money for these projects was largely ponied up by these "rich hunters" that are being trashed.

I AM STILL YET TO HEAR OTHERWISE--WHERE'S ALL THE CASH COMING FROM???

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]I said I don't feel like I personally own the wildlife. And I don't. I said sacrifice a percentage of our "tags" not our wildlife. We can own a tag but not an animal. To me it is a privelge to hunt. I don't feel entitled to anything. JUST GRATEFUL FOR THE OPPORTUNITY!

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Somewhere I must be missing something if the proposal is to have 4 tags (2 sheep 2 deer) on AI and 2 are to go to auction for high bid and 2 are to go into a draw where are we losing any oppurtunity? There is none on the island now. So no one is losing a damn thing, but me and my kids will at least have oppurtunity at another deer tag and a sheep tag. I would pay more to get in on that draw. If the state uses common sense this could be a big win for sportsmen. publisize how the money is spent on the island show some success and then we can prove again how sustainable use can benifit and increase herds.
Or maybe since the bighorns were put there as a nursery herd maybe any money raised from the sheep tags should be used to by grazing permits so we can have more herds elsewhere and increase hunting oppurtunities. Like it or not anyone who has hunted sheep in utah in the last 20 years or just likes to look at them or puts in for tags in hopes to hunt sheep some day is benefiting from those rich bastards and the tags they steal from you.
Lets put some pressure on the DNR (mstyler) to let some coyote control go on on the island then the public would really have some animals to see out there maybe fawn survival could increase so the herds could grow to carriing capacity. Lets add a draw for a coyote hunt kill a couple dozen we could save some deer and pronghorn and then maybe more people would want to go out there with more animals visible
Or we can just let it be the way it is and the pronghorn will be gone in a few years the deer will stay where very few see them. As for the buffalo they cant be used on the book cliffs as they are not pure blood.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 01:20PM (MST)[p]I am another one who doesn't want to see anymore wealth tags given in this state. There are other ways to raise money!

On Antelope Island I suggest we open a hunt (if there has to be one) which is open to everyone who wants to apply, be it a resident or a non resident. Each person gets to apply one time for each tag. For example, if they give two deer tags, they can apply for both deer tags, but are limited to drawing just one of the hunts for which they applied. If they give two sheep tags, each person can apply for each sheep tag, but if they applied for all four tags (2 deer and 2 sheep) and you drew a deer tag, or a ram tag, our remaining applications for that year are voided.

Charge residents $10.00 to apply for each hunt and charge non residents $25.00 to apply with the same ONE TAG rule if they draw.

I bet many hunters would apply for all four tags (that's $40.00) for residents and $100.00 for non residents. It would be very similar to the convention tags.

I am sure someone out there would volunteer their services and a program that could do this, so there would be basically very little cost involved and I bet the return of dollars would be far greater than using almost any other means.

That way the odds would favor the average hunter drawing a tag because there would be so many more average guys entered into the drawings, and at the same time it would be raising the money needed without excluding anyone.

It would be a win-win situation.

Have a good one. BB
 
Good post Billy. Good ideas.

I am still opposed to hunting State Parks, I just do not see a reason for it.

30plus
The proposal is to SELL tags this year, see how it works, and MAYBE have a draw some other year. So you and your kids have no increased opportunity this year, and no commitment for tags in the future. How is that a good thing?

Jason,

Please answer my questions.
 
Hey, I've got a great idea. Lets give at least 50% of the OIL tags to non residents since they contribute more than 50% of the revenue to the UT F&G. Sounds fair to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 10:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 09:00?PM (MST)

So the director of the top overseeing state agency gets a nice tag, and hires a prominent state legislator as his guide. A couple of years later, and the director of that agency is publicly lobbying for a proposal from that prominent legislator that will create a couple of special tags inside a state park. The tags will carry a premium price, will probably end up at a big tag convention, will probably require a guide, and will be out of the pocket range of the vast majority of the average resident hunter. Then, the legislator says that roughly half of what those tags are speculated to sell for goes back to the state park, but the remainder of the funds are undesignated.

In the meantime, the director and the legislator support whatever the primary lobbyist/tag seller proposes when setting policy and when working behind the scenes on the lawmaking process, whether it relates to hunts or not. The explanation from the director doesn't really follow a logical track on why the idea is needed. The first priority is to cover a budget, the second is to control a stable population of deer and change the management of a beneficial nursery herd of sheep. He mentions that some deer wandered off the island, and a couple got hit. Will selling tags prevent deer from wandering or getting hit? Will selling tags negatively affect non-hunting users of the state park? Will it create a media firestorm when the nonconsumptive users get wind of it?

Will 4 tags really control a population? Will 2 sheep tags preclude the need and cost to transplant off the island? Or will it just allow a toe in the door to sell more tags down the road because the budget needs a boost?


I say no hunts on the island. If they must happen, make them available for special draw for general public use, like a youth hunt, senior hunt, or a veteran or disabled hunt.

Why do I feel like this situation is meant to benefit the few, and not the general public? If the state park is in the hole $400k, and the tags generate $400k+, why is all of the money not designated to the park? Who is going to get the undesignated money? Maybe one of the threesome has some plans, or an explanation? Here's an idea. Raise user fees or designate more money at the legislative level when budgets fall short. If resources are continually over budget, review why management isn't getting it done. Or close the resource and use the money elsewhere.



A sense of impropriety is just as bad as actual impropriety.
 
The opportunites are not always going to come instantly and I am OK with that. Right now as is there is no chance for hunting the Island. If this opens the door for that then I am OK waiting until next year to see an opportunity. Also probably bigger than that the island is used to breed sheep for new herds. If more money and focus is put into the island and habitat that means more sheep and new herds being started in new areas. We don't have to look for instant gratification. Sometimes the results from conservation take a few years to blosom. I am OK with that especially because with out this proposal Antelope Island would never get any public tags. This gives us a chance at several new opportunities.

QUESTION ANSWERED! NO ANSWER MINE>>WHERE DA MONEY COMIN" FROM?

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Good ideas BB. I am in no way opposed to alternative means to raising money...AS LONG AS they generate the same amount as selling the tags and as long as the money is used to improve the wildlife resource. Thus far I believe the most effective org at raising money is SFW and in my opinion they have got the most done for wildlife but I think anyone with good ideas should step forward and speak up on capital hill. If they have a better idea they should step up and get it done. If the same amount of money is raised and the same benefit to our herds is created then I am all for it but thus far I have not seen anyone step up the plate and get things done and projects approved and new herds started like SFW. If the general public has a better plan and a better way then you all need to get off your butts and make something happen. I think that if you could raise more money by doing a raffle it would be done. They are not trying to cater to the rich. They are just trying to raise money!

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-10 AT 09:29PM (MST)[p]Bowhunt,
I already answered the other questions above. I do not guide. I do not have money to by $$ tags. No I am not in any way opposed to hunting other state parks especially not for one - two weeks each year on a limited basis to manage the wildlife. What else... I am not affiliated with SFW in anyway and I don't know Don Peay from Adam. How's that??? I just believe in good conservation and realize it takes $$$$. I am happy with current public hunting opportunities and look froward to them getting better. I hunt several states every year on general over the counter tags with out a guide and I think Utah has great things to offer much because of conservation $$$$. ANY MORE QUESTIONS???

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MTQuivers, IMHO you are making the mistake is thinking more money always equates with more/better results. That is not true in the private sector nor in the public sector. Take public education for example, we keep hearing how we need more money dumped into the education program, yet the results show no relation in the results of school districts to amount spent per pupil. In fact, often the exact opposite is often the case. A private company can invest untold amounts of funds into a product, but that does not ensure it will be a good product nor that it will be a product the public wants/demands. So, just because conservation permits generate funds that are going to habitat projects, doesn't ensure the net gain is dollar for dollar. In fact, even after millions have been spent on said projects, the deer herds are no better off than they were before SFW 'saved' hunting. In fact, this summer SFW and other groups will be asking for ALL mule deer permits to be limited entry under the guise of "micro-management". This will cause families to give up hope on being able to hunt deer as family/friends. This will undoubtedly result in lower hunter retention and lower hunter recruitment, BOTH of which do not bode well for the future of hunting in Utah.

Funding shortfalls through auctioning permits is a band-aid at best, and will magnify the shortfalls most likely. It doesn't address why the state doesn't have the funds for state parks, education, etc.. If we don't address and FIX the reasons the state is lacking the funds for all the programs, auctioning permits will not help in the long-term. It may make a few folks that get the tags happy, but at the end of the year, the state will still be under-funded.
 
Hoytme,
I think you could look at the current economic situation in Utah, and around the world to see why the state lacks funding for various orgs and projects. Everyone is scrambling to try to keep afloat long enough to ride out the economic downturn.

The state surely has it's problems, but the general public is not spending money right now. People are not applying for hunting permits like they were a few years ago. People are not traveling to see the sights. In general people are in the survival mode, and I believe the State of Utah is too. Including Antelope Island. Sure I don't know all the answers to their issues, but it seems like they are wanting to generate money to keep the wildlife program going on the island.

As far as raising money goes, you have to believe any company would want to maximize their return, and minimize their expense and their workload. That is why they are turning to the auction.

MTQuivers, I think you make a lot of sense with your posts. I appreciate your input.

As a side note, I have a brother that works for the BLM in Utah as a Bullhog operator. For those who don't know that's the machine used to shred trees in habitat restoration projects. I asked him last night how he felt about MDF and SFW as far as them helping wildlife in this state. He said that they are very good to work with and that they, combined with the DWR and the BLM are actively seeking and completing habitat restoration projects all over the state. He said that prior to SFW and MDF being involved they hardly ever did a project, and they had no money to pay for projects. He said he has been to many of the old habitat restoration sites he's done over the last 10 years and they are thriving and are full of wildlife instead of Juniper trees. I wanted to ask him this because he's on the job every day clearing the land and replanting habitat, and I hear so much bashing and complaining about SFW that it made me start to wonder if I was getting fed full of b.s. After his conversation with me, I'm feeling very strong that SFW and MDF are committed to the wildlife and that they are helping put more wildlife on the mountain. He said that both orgs help pay for part of almost every habitat resto that the BLM does. He said they also pay for lots of the ones that are subcontracted out to private restoration companies. If this is where my money is going when I donate to SFW and MDF, I'm going to keep donating. That alone will keep me involved.

Now back to the island........

DeerBeDead
 
"We have enough auction tags in this state. Selling hunting opportunities to the rich in this state is growing out of control. NO MORE AUCTION TAGS!!!"

I totally agree!!! Its seems like everything, is being ruined by selling, to the "highest bidder".

I would rather see them not hunt out there if that's how its going to be done. IMO
 
So you're comfortable donating a dollar and having just $0.13 hit the ground? You're happy with your money going to a group with no transparency? A group that relies on backdoor political deals that sell out other sportman groups? You're happy with a group whose name says for FISH and wildlife, but that does nothing for fish, ducks, pheasant or turkey?

I think its great that the group has done habitat work, but there are so many questions around them that it's scary. The Teamsters Union used to wield immense economic and political power. they pretty much were able to do whatever they wanted. It got to the point that they were essentially organized crime. The organization fell, and it took decades to recover any semblance of credibility. It has recovered, btu still carries the stigma of shadiness. I see SFW in the same light, and Peay is the hunter's Hoffa. The Island deal just serves as an example of how I feel.
__________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.
 
Founder, Why don't you found a group that is opposed to all these auction tags rather than suggesting Don Peay champion the cause? That seemed like a really odd suggestion.
 
I think Founder is trying to get SFW to do the right thing. SFW has come greedy and they see these tags as more $$$$$$. This was not the reason why SFW was created.
 
Brian

Your comments are somewhat offensive! Because I am in favor of hunting the Island I am not a Sportsmen? You state that you wish Don would represent Sportsmen on this issue. So the rest of Sportsmen in favor are not really Sportsmen in your eye's?

You go on to state that 99% of sportsmen are against hunting the Island. Were did you get this figure? Last night we had our Tooele County Banquet, some where between 350 to 375 people attended.
We decided to hand out a random survey on this issue. Niether side of this issue was given mic time to make a case for or against this proposal. Here are the four questions asked all were yes or no.

1- Would you be in favor of allowing Mule Deer hunting to return to Antelope Island and start hunting California Bighorn Sheep?
Results
128 were in Favor
11 were Opposed

2- Would you be in favor of allowing one General Draw Tag and one Auction Tag for both Mule Deer and California Bighorn Sheep?
Results
126 in Favor
13 Opposed

3- If you answered No to question number 2 would you change your mind if this was the only way the general public (Average Joe) would be able to hunt the Island?
Results
Of the 13 that voted No 1 said he or she would change thier mind and vote for the hunt.

4- If you answered No to question number 2 would you change your mind if you knew that the revenue generated from the sale of these two permits would go towards improving habitat on the Island and to increase the current mule deer population and all other wildlife for everyone to enjoy. Or go into the parks general fund to help maintain and improve facilities for the general public?
Results
Of the 13 that voted NO 1 person said this would change his or her vote to yes

I dont think this adds up to 99% of sportsmen being opposed to hunting the Island.

Since the biggest rub is guys with money being able to buy hunts. Lets take a look at Landowner Tags vs Opening the Island.
I would be willing to bet that 75 percent of the general public (Average Joe's) can not afford to purchase a Landowner Tag it is simple out of thier reach. I know that hundreds if not thousands of these tags are available here in the west. Brian you are not shy about admitting that you regularly purchase one of these permits in fact lots of Sportsmen buy these permits to hunt each year.

I have never bought and landowner tag for myself. Why? Because I cannot afford it and choose not to spend my family's income in that manner.
Now because I cant afford it should we lobby to get rid of this program? No. Good for you and the rest of the guys that take advantage of this opportunity.

There is one major difference between the proposal to hunt the Island and Landowner tags.
Land owner tags do not provide the Average Joe with any more access or opportunity. You want to Play you Pay. Only the guy that pay plays.

The Island on tho other hand is a different story two money guys and to of us Average Joes are going to have a chance at a hunt of a lifetime. That was not available to us before. The only diffrence? Us Average Joes did not have to foot the bill.

Drawback
You must of over looked the Million SFW help get for Utah Fish Hatchery's not to mention the $5000 they donated to Urban Fishery projects and the money they donted to feed finger lings so they could grow larger before dumping them in Strawberry Res. Oh ya, you might have missed the Turkey Transplants as well as winter feeding for Turkeys we have funded. You might want to check your facts before making bogus comments.
Only cowards disable thier profile's stand up and be counted!

Troy Justensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-10 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-10 AT 06:17?PM (MST)

>Brian
>
>Your comments are somewhat offensive! Because
>I am in favor of
>hunting the Island I am
>not a Sportsmen? You state
>that you wish Don would
>represent Sportsmen on this issue.
>So the rest of Sportsmen
>in favor are not really
>Sportsmen in your eye's?
>
>You go on to state that
>99% of sportsmen are against
>hunting the Island. Were did
>you get this figure? Last
>night we had our Tooele
>County Banquet, some where between
>350 to 375 people attended.
>
>We decided to hand out a
>random survey on this issue.
>Niether side of this issue
>was given mic time to
>make a case for or
>against this proposal. Here are
>the four questions asked all
>were yes or no.
>
>1- Would you be in favor
>of allowing Mule Deer hunting
>to return to Antelope Island
>and start hunting California Bighorn
>Sheep?
>Results
>128 were in Favor
>11 were Opposed
>
>2- Would you be in favor
>of allowing one General Draw
>Tag and one Auction Tag
>for both Mule Deer and
>California Bighorn Sheep?
>Results
>126 in Favor
>13 Opposed
>
>3- If you answered No to
>question number 2 would you
>change your mind if this
>was the only way the
>general public (Average Joe) would
>be able to hunt the
>Island?
>Results
>Of the 13 that voted No
>1 said he or she
>would change thier mind and
>vote for the hunt.
>
>4- If you answered No to
>question number 2 would you
>change your mind if you
>knew that the revenue generated
>from the sale of these
>two permits would go towards
>improving habitat on the Island
>and to increase the current
>mule deer population and all
>other wildlife for everyone to
>enjoy. Or go into the
>parks general fund to help
>maintain and improve facilities for
>the general public?
>Results
>Of the 13 that voted NO
>1 person said this would
>change his or her vote
>to yes
>
>I dont think this adds up
>to 99% of sportsmen being
>opposed to hunting the Island.
>
>

Only 139 people voted. So if you had 350 people at the banquet then 211 people didn't even vote. This info means nothing. It all depends on the audience. I bet you would get different results if you did a poll on more average joe hunters.
 
Jason,

I asked if you were in favor of opening up our National Parks, and Wildlife Reserves? You did not answer that.

If yes, should we test out the plan by Auctioning tags the first year...just to evaluate how it goes.

It is both funny and Ironic, that the justification for this hunt is:
"We need to hunt them, because it is too expensive to transplant them"
Then in the next breathe we hear the words "look at all the money SFW has for these great projects"

Why not keep this place for broad stock? Let's hunt them somewhere else. If we must hunt them, for HELL sakes put them in the draw.

Mr. Justonsen (sp)

Your questions were misleading. So really would not count as a statistically accurate survey.

Example: You asked if people would support 1 auction and 1 public tag. That is not the current proposal.
 
Billy Bob

Are you kidding me? Of those 375 people how many do you think were couples? How many do you think were children. Maybe we should have given them crayola's to fill out the survey.
Based on those that attended 139 was a good representation of the crowd.

What type of audience do you want to poll (PETA) ya they might agree with you. We asked sportsmen "average joe's". You all just cant handle the truth.

Troy Justensen
 
Bowhunt,
I apologize but you are not reading very well. I did answer that question above. No I am not opposed to them opening National or state parks to hunting on a limited basis to manage the herds. and no I am not opposed to them testing it with an auction tag.
Bowhunt, you are not making sense.
I never said it was "to" expensive to transplant them. THAT IS ALREADY BEING DONE!! So obviously it is not "too" expensive.
Get educated on the situation before you speak.
Look at the numbers: there are between 30-40 mature rams on the island. I THINK THAT IS PLENTY TO BREED THE EWES SO OUR BRUTE STOCK SHOULD BE JUST FINE! So if we kill 2-4 sheep off the island per year that leaves 26-36 mature rams to breed which is more than enough. It has already been stated that the best animals to transplant elsewhere are ewes and younger rams. Mature rams tend to wander a lot further leaving them more suseptible to disease and getting in contact with domestic sheep. When starting new herds young rams and ewes are preferred so we have 30-40 rams that are healthy and mature and we need to manage them just like every other herd in the state. We can't start new herds with mature rams!
Bowhunt, I don't mean to sound rude but I think you are failing to read the details and know what you are talking about before you type.
From a management standpoint there does "NEED" to be a sheep hunt... Not to mention that 190-200+" bucks are dying of old age. Some of you guys make me wonder if Anti-hunters have infiltrated MM!!

LAST COMMENT! THERE IS ALSO A POLL ON KSL! The poll now shows 46% are for more than 4 tags and 28% want 4 tags and only and ONLY 26% THAT DON'T WANT A HUNT AT ALL!!!! I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THE MAJORITY ARE IN FAVOR!!!!!!!!!

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9788430




Jason Yates
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DOES THE KSL POLL LIE AS WELL??????? IS IT TO MISLEADING?????? FOR ALL OF OUR MM SPORTSMANS/ETHICS POLICE/ANTI-HUNTING/PETA/WOLF LOVERS??????????
Some of you make me wonder if you even hunt or believe in hunting as a management tool! You are so wrapped up in ME, ME, ME thats all that matters!

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LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-10 AT 09:15PM (MST)[p]Troy, you didn't mention kids when you said 350 to 375 people attended. I didnt think you would be counting kids too.

Don't get your panties in a knot. I fear the decisions made by special interest groups more than I would worry about PETA.
 
Troy do your members know that only 13 percent of the money collected by their organization hits the ground? Somthing tell me they dont.
 
Jason,
Your a funny guy. You get educated, read what Mike said. Too expensive.

I don't agree with hunting on parks, and for sure don't agree with selling the tags to the highest bidder.
Get educated and figure out how that makes it about me. I would say the guy who wants a hunt out there, has a lot more reason to be accused of that than me.
I love it when you throw out the anti hunter comment...lol good one. I was wondering if this site had been infiltrated by the English Hunting Club. Let's all hunt through memberships and bids.
Maybe some day you and I should compare notes and see who has put more money and time into preserving wildlife, and giving others opportunities.
I am glad you are passionate about hunting. But don't accuse me of wanting this for "me me me"
I want everyone to get that chance. I think the best way is to get this 540 tag and growing giant under control.
Maybe we can share a bowhunt some day, or take some photos of animals together. We might be able to find some common ground. Maybe I could send you a powerpoint on my ideas. Wink wink.
Take care, good luck at the archery shop. I wish you the best.
 
After all the cost associtated at the conventions and banquets what amount actually hits the ground to help wildlife?
 
Bowhunt,
I am not in anyway a guy who wants all hunts to be through bids or memberships. I do over-the-counter tags 90% of my hunts and the few I am lucky enough to draw are self guided. The most I ever spent on a hunt was $1800 for Alaskan Caribou drop camp so if you think I am all about big money hunts. YOU ARE WRONG!!!! I just know that these auction tags and conservation dollars are making a difference. I don't care if they take 10,000 tags for auction as long as it is 5-10% of the general pool. More tags for auctions just means more tags for everybody. More herds established (OIL) and better quality deer, elk and antelope. I AM STILL YET TO HEAR HOW THESE AREAS HAVE MAGICALLY INCREASED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS? NOTHING PERSONAL BUT BOWHUNT WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER? IF IT WASN't SFW, MDF, FNAWS, and OTHERS THEN WHAT HAS CAUSED OIL TAGS TO GO FROM 1000-5000 in the last ten years. Why did we have NO 400" elk and now we have plenty? WHAT HAS CAUSED THESE MAGICAL THINGS TO OCCUR WHEN THEY NEVER HAD BEFORE IN THIS STATES HISTORY? SOMEBODY TELL ME!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I would love to share a bowhunt. ANYONE WHO BOWHUNTS IS OK IN MY BOOK EVEN IF WE DON'T AGREE 100%!!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
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ONE MORE THING: why hasn't anyone commented on the poll on KSL??
These numbers don't lie. This is not even a pro hunting website. It is likely that the 26% against this proposal are against hunting ALTOGETHER!!!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE TRY TO DISCREDIT THIS POLL TOO!!! I already have out my popcorn and I can't wait to hear the answer on this one!!!!

Jason Yates
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10 AT 00:35AM (MST)[p]I meant Limited Entry...SORRY hoytme

Still no response to the questions? Or the poll on KSL???.....WAITING

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
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5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
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The million? But DP said it was 30 million! See, you guys need to put your books out in the open so you can keep your stories straight. Of that mysterious million(s), how much of it came out of the coffers of SFW? Please post a link so I don't get that wrong again.

The $5k to urban fisheries was a drop in the bucket. The local TU chapter dumped in $30k, and the DWR (re: licence fees) funded the majority of the project. While SFW's coin was appreciated, it was by no means a heroic act, and not enough to justify the F in the organizations name. And how long ago was that project? What have you done for fish lately?

Please provide a link to the fingerling money, or at least state how much of SFW's money was handed out and when that was. I'd not heard of that, and would like to know more.

I apologize on the turkey comment. I did find a little bit of SFW activity in support of turkey. Will that continue when those tags are no longer drawn?

Now, how about work for duck or pheasant?

BTW, I found this link that shows all the SFW projects in 2009. I'm sure you're all proud to say that there's nothing "fishy" about it:
http://www.sfwsfh.org/documents/2009_Conservation Projects.pdf

Why do you care about my profile? I suppose I could change that, but I think I'll wait until SFW offers the same transparency.

____________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.
 
It's no big deal. Complaining that you can't see my name is just a way of avoiding the questions I put forward.

Here's all you need to know about me. I draw a bow. I shoulder shotguns and rifles. I throw a fly, and I put an auger through the ice. I own property. My tax and licence dollars, and my personal donations and volunteer efforts contribute to our fish, game and habitat. I feel that I have a right to know how my money is being spent, and I have the right to question when I don't think it's being done right.
____________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.
 
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9788430

the poll asks if people are in favor of hunting Antelope Island. People want more opportunities to hunt. A lot of average joe hunters don't want to see the tags given to the rich guys. We already have 540 Conservation tags for them.

Now, if the question in the poll was.....Are you in favor of 4 permits auctioned off to the highest bidder then the average joe might vote differently because they don't get to participate.

I seriously doubt that PETA is voting on KSL in favor of people hunting the Island.
 
Jason,

I have never tried to avoid the question of why we have more tags now. I will answer but it really has nothing to do with Antelope Island. I think we are starting down a SLIPPERY SLOPE when we sell animals to pay for an event...in this case the event being the management of Antelope Island. Where will it ever end?

Actually we should be calling the 540 tags, 640 right. We added 100 more for landowners.

More animals:
-Elk: In 199x we starting shooting spikes only, and reduced cow tags. The herds increased. I think it is great!
-Bighorn: I think the DWR with help from other organizations has really delivered! Looks like it it working out.
-Bison...ditto on sheep.
-Deer: We have cut tags, reduced opportunity, and still no answers. I see WAY fewer deer now than ever.

I just do not think we need to take 640 tags out of the general pool to get it done. We don't need 200 given out at the Hunting Show in particular. All that does is reward the guy that has a booth, the sponsors, and the cute MDF chicks.

There are other ways of getting it done. I am not going to elaborate here. But keep in mind that Don was just bragging about bringing in 500k of DONATIONS. I wonder if that person got a tag for that, or just did it for the love of wildlife.

I am against hunting the Park, and I am very very against hunting it with tags that are auctioned off. It sends us down the wrong path.

Jason,
We have some great bucks running around the town I live in. Should the city sell the rights to hunt them, and then use the money for the Mayor? How about if they are eating my tulips, can I sell a tree stand spot to someone to shoot one of those, I could use the money.

Anyway, take care. It just really concerns me that these animals have become the King's.
 
First of all the KSL Poll does tell people the proposal. If you would have read the article right next to the poll it expalins that they are giving tags for auction and raising $$$$. It says they could get $250,000+ for the tags right in the article and explains the 4 tags proposal. People read the article and then vote on their opinnion so absolutely people are saying that they support an auction of tags to raise money. Go back and read the article.

Bowhunt, you need to understand I am not all about SFW I am all about getting things done for hunting and wildlife opportunities. I just think they have been the best at getting things done. I know for a fact that some of the money that is raised ($500,000)is just strictly donations and not for tags. I saw it first hand at the full curl society. Karl Malone donated $200,000 of his own money and right in the middle of the meeting Mr Mauer donated another $100,000. He did not get any tag for it he just donated because he believed in the cause.

If some other groups or average joes could get things done for our wildlife for less money or less tags then great lets jump on board and support them. I just haven't seen it and quite frankly neither have any of you.

No we should not hunt city deer in city limits but I think that is a far cry from hunting antelope Island. For crying out loud we already have hunts on AI. (Buffalo) Why not take advantage of a great resource for big deer and sheep? The truth is I personally have very little desire to hunt there but I support people that do (especially if they want to donate $$$$ to our wildlife) and I am excited about the potential for more focus on using antelope island to start new sheep and buffalo herds. I just think if you really believe in wildlife MANAGEMENT then it does not just apply in select areas that you feel are OK to hunt. If you believe in management and hunting as a management tool then you would support hunting where ever management is needed.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
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Jason,

I guess it boils down to:
I do not agree that we NEED to manage those deer and sheep through a hunt.
I do not agree that we NEED to manage those deer and sheep through an auction.
I really feel that 640 tags is too many, and too mysterious.

Nothing to do with SFW, nothing to do with anything else.



And a 5% discount? Come on man. I need at least 20%.
 
Ok, last post and I am done.

Here is the KUTV survey result:


Should Antelope Island State Park have a deer/sheep hunt to raise money for the park?

No, State Parks should find another revenue avenue. (33.3%)

Yes, only if all four tags are available to the public through a draw. (44.4%)

Yes, they need the money and a hunt shouldn't hurt other park visitor's experience. (22.2%)
 
Whether by auction or by general draw I believe that we are wasting a resource. Do you think that we need to have 30-40 mature rams growing old and dying when we have sportsman all over the state that are dying to shoot a bighorn. Do you think we should have 200" bucks dying of old age when we have guys who have a lifelong dream of shooting a 200" buck. I think that it NEEDS to be managed and hunted just as bad as any other unit in the state. If not then why do we hunt or manage herds any where else?

As far as the archery shop it is an online archery shop. 95% of the items I sell are to out of staters and mostly people from back east. After all there are alot more bowhunters out there than here. So the 5% off for MM and the ads I pay to have on here are really just to help support Brian because I love this website. I don't mind paying a little each month for ads to support this site and keep it going? In the archery business if you sell for %20 off you are not going to be making much---especially when you got Issac at Badlands breathing down your neck about MSRP. There you go All questions answered.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
I was just kidding you about the discount. I think it is great.
I really did not mean anything by that at all. Sorry!

We are just not going to agree on the other issue, which is fine.
Just don't call me an anti hunter or wolf lover again.

It goes back to my previous post. No hunting on parks, no more auction tags, 640 is too many! 30 rams is not too many, but if so let's move some.
 
Jason, You have a lot of great arguments and the sheep hunt is doable. But your words "managed and hunted" are key, when referring to the deer herd there. They aren't and haven't been managed. They've been left alone to fend off the coyotes as best they can. Most of the people that are against the island deer hunt are against it for two reasons.
1. There isn't a need, because the herd isn't growing.
2. The wealthy get privledges.

The proposal is for an auction to allow hunting this year for the wealthy and next year for Regular joe. The argument is to raise funds and help out the deficet the park incures. None of that helps out the deer herd. They've done nothing to help the deer herd, but want to hunt it now. Why, because somebody is willing to throw a lot of 000's around.

People are tired of the big groups getting more tags with no accountability for where money is going.

Yelum
 
I think I can speak for most of the Disabled Hunters... I would like the opportunity to Hunt Sheep on Antelope Island. I'm sure some guide can strap me down on a Horse and I can get close enough to shoot a Sheep... Can't say that about most of the other Sheep hunting units and opportunities in the State.

I put in for the Buffalo out there every year because it's a Hunt that is Disabled Friendly... plus they will clean and butcher the animal for you. Disbled hunters just do not have the hunting opportunities here in Utah like they do in other States... It's FOUR tags.... get a grip all of you. Give the Disabled the opportunity even if you don't want it for yourself.

Destiny
 
At the begining of this post Mike says the money will be used to benefit wildlife. The original Ksl article said the same thing so in my mind the deer will benefit. To manage them we would also need predator control like everywhere else. The fact that the herd is not growing is a testament to the fact that management works. They are not being managed now and the herd is stagnant but if managed properly (including predator control) I think we could all agree the herd would grow. If there are 90 mature bucks out there killing 2-4 a year is not going to hurt anything and with 28,000 acres that number could easily grow. What if in the future we could have 5-10 public tags per year. It is possible. I see this as a good thing for two reasons #1 money to help wildlife #2 Opens doors for future hunting opportunities ON AND OFF THE ISLAND!

Bowhunt- If you read back I said "SOME" people on here make me wonder if they are anti-hunters/ wolf lovers/ etc. First of all it was "KIND OF"(not fully) a joke and secondly it was not directed at you as an individual. I never meant it as a personal attack just a general observation of some people opposed to opening up AI. I watched the original news report on KSL and there are two ladies that are 100% opposed to this hunt and I would guess they are opposed to any hunting from the sound of them. Their reasons to not hunt were the same as the "hunters" on here! It just made me wonder if they are actually hunters or anti-hunters. In this argument some people on here are one in the same with the anti's in my opinion.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
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Oh my @@#$% do we need to post the proposal again.

It is NOT 4 tags, it is an Auction for 2. AUCTION. Then an evaluation.

I would love you to have the opportunity some day, but your NOT going to get it.

I could maybe support a Disability Tag, in a draw.
 
Well, Jason, I am a hunter and have been my entire life. I've always dreamed of taking a monster muley. I also have 20 hunter friends with the same dream. But NONE of us want to see a hunt on the island. Hell, even Teddy R saw the need to have places where wildlife can roam and not be hunted. And he sure never got accused of being a wolf loving anti hunter.

Yelum
 
Not to be beating a dead horse but there is already hunting out there. Whats the difference between deer and buffalo? Not only that but the average person has never seen a big deer out there. The terrain is such that the average person is not going to view big mature deer and sheep anyways. Let's face it this is not yellowstone park and the wildlife viewing opportunities would not change because of a few hunts per year. THAT IS ALREADY PROVEN. Most people don't even know there are buffalo hunts going on out there so it obviously is not effecting the wildlife viewing at all. In fact I think that managing wildlife out there through hunting would likely result in more wildlife to view. (i.e. the deer and sheep herds would grow)
Let's face it if the wildlife viewing out there was that popular for the general average utahn or as good as parks like yellowstone maybe they wouldn't be losing $400,000 per year. Just my thoughts

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
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When do we stop with the "conservation tags" my hell Utah has more of these tags then all others combined.

Utah has become all about money when it comes to Hunting

It all started with the CMWU then limited tags for Conservation ORGs it is like a snow slide and there is no end in sight for it to stop.

All someone in Utah needs to say is it will make X dollers and will save Hunting and then they say well we can give you a tag for the gen pool to draw..

Hell 1 tag to Kill a deer on A.I. Well that will be great for 1 person a year if they want to go Kill a deer on A.I. But when will it stop and when do we say it is not worth it..

We give out 200 Great tags at one convention a year all in the name of CONSERVATION and that is not even a dent in how many tags these groups get.

We hear about the money being used for this and that but really is it???

Why can other states make it with just a hand full of Conservation tags and we need hundreds of tags a year.
Utah has great hunting and yes it might be due to SFW MDF FNAWS and other groups but what it comes down to is management and other states can do it why cant Utah..

My Questions Are

Do we really have great Elk herds because these tags give us the money or is it because we have limited the hunting in these areas and management??????

Do we really need to give so many tags to ORGs to make money???

Would say Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada etc. need to have as many Conservation tags to have great hunting or would they just need the right management? (Colorado is proof with its elk and deer herds)

And am I the only person that would be happy if half these tags went into the gen pool and we started to see less conservation tags on the market???
 
I have a question that I've been thinking about. Who will auction the tag of for the state? They arent going to do it. Will they give it to a conservation organization? And if they decide to give it to an organization 1) which one will they give it too and 2)will they mandate that 100% of the tag money goes back to AI or will it be the usual 13-60%. Seems like takes away from the premis that they need the money.

If they are giving the tag away I want to throw my new groups name in to the bucket for groups to auction the tag. Semi-Sober Basin Hunters for Wildlife. We will make sure they get back at least 70%.




respect my authorita
 
If SFW gets their grubby hands on the money then you know 100% of the money won't go back to the State Park. What other things will be thought of next?

Maybe we can sell tags to help school districts? What special things does the park do that costs $400,000 a year? Maybe they can learn to live with a little less when times are tough.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10 AT 05:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10 AT 05:39?PM (MST)

Elite,

Oh don't worry organizations in this State already fought school districts, and state land agencies that wanted to sell tags, or their land for use. (which is great)

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_13342566

But now the same people are for an Auction on Antelope Island.
The schools cannot do it with their land, because they wanted to keep the money....quite ironic isn't it.

I guess now the State can go back to the drawing board and proposing selling tags on State Land, or selling the land...come on they need the money don't they? The precedent is being set.

Do you see where this is headed?

It is out of control and headed the wrong way.
 
It can be a very slippy slope. Once the money starts coming in then more people will want a piece of the pie. Then we will give out more conservation tags which is what Don probably would like to see happen. He's got dollar signs in his eyes.
 
So why don't we look for some other alternatives for financing Antelope Island's economic shortfalls. Here are some suggestions:

1. Open the island to grazing. Charge $5.00 per AUM. This will also help control the deer & sheep populations in a natural manner.

2. Transplant & establish a wolf population on the island. This will be beneficial in several ways. The herds will be managed, the coyote population will drop, and all the wolf lovers will flock to the island to see them and will bring an influx of entrance fee revenue and concessions revenue.

3. Raise grazing fees on state lands statewide by $0.10 to $0.20 per AUM, with the increase earmarked for state parks budgets and park capital improvements once the lean times are over.

I know these ideas won't do anything to improve things for the downtrodden auction shopping hunter, but what we're really doing is looking out for the best interests of the Park, right?

____________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.
 

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