Another tazer death - this time in So, UT

Roy

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Here comes another MM firestorm! Sad story - kid was bipolar, PhD student at NAU.

Right call?

Cardall Family Has Tapes Of Fatal Encounter With Cops
Reported by: Fields Moseley
Last Update: 9:53 pm

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Brian Cardall with his wife, Anna and daughter, Ava. (Courtesy: Paul Cardall) The attorney for Hurricane City says the family of Brian Cardall has dispatch and police recordings of what happened Tuesday. Cardall's family says he was on State Road 59 when he became disoriented. He got out of the car and his wife called police for help. A Hurricane police officer used a Taser on him. Cardall died a short time later.

Duane Cardall, Brian's father, said the family has listened to the tapes released by the Washington County Critical Task Force to the family. But even after that, they don't feel there is anyway a stun-gun should have been used.

Brian Cardall was working toward his PhD at Northern Arizona University in molecular ecology. He was driving with his wife and daughter back to Arizona Tuesday when he became disoriented.

In a press release late Friday afternoon... Peter Stirba, attorney for Hurricane City, said dispatch recordings reveal: "Ms. Cardall reports to dispatch that Mr. Cardall has taken all his clothes off and is naked, she is afraid he is going to jump in front of a car, and that he is chasing after cars that have pulled over to help, and she is afraid he will 'freak out' on one of them."

Stirba also said, Cardall received more than 20 verbal commands to get down on the ground.

The Cardall family later issued a statement saying: "While Mr. Stirba may have provided his interpretation of the recordings in his Friday afternoon news release, we feel he has omitted numerous highly significant facts, which we feel the public should know."

The family plans to release the tapes as early as next week, but stands firm that a Taser should never have been used on Brian in this situation.

"I wouldn't be using it if I thought it was going to cause a problem," said Sgt. Nick Roberts of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office. "Those officers are second guessing themselves probably, and that's sad."

Sergeant Roberts couldn't speak to what happened in Washington County, but he has trained hundreds of officers and deputies to use electronic control devices like the Taser. He said the devices are saving lives, and are far less dangerous than fighting or wrestling.

"The more we can keep the officer and the suspect apart, the more we can prevent injuries to both parties," said Roberts.

That is a relatively new tactic in law enforcement which has been helped along by electronic control devices like the Taser.

As for Brian Cardall's family, they revealed this week that Brian had bipolar disease. We're still waiting to learn whether that or something else caused his disorientation Tuesday.

Cardall's funeral is on Monday.


Copyright 2009 Four Points. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
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For you MMer's with not much time on your hands looked up Excited Delirium on the web. Most of the deaths you see from tazers and use of force involve naked people.

Rich
 
I thought there would be bigger response to this - oh well BTT to see if there is any interest.

Good point though Rich - naked tasing is not good.


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
disoriented would not be the correct word here, but he must of had a heart condition.....
 
>isn't bi-polar just a fancy name
>for idiot?

No - Unfortunately, someone who is bipolar really is sick. It is a valid psychiatric condition. They suffer from terrible mood swings and mania. They literally have little or no control over their behavior and feelings at times. This wasn't an example of a person who was just being an idiot and deserved to be tased becuase of his idiocy. I think in this case, the kid was beyond controlling himself and the officers took the measure they thought best to protect him, themselves and others including his family. Apparently however, the family feels they could have handled it differently and didn't need to resort to tasing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Roy - Don't post much so bear with me.
This man was on medication and he had been off of it for awhile. I know first hand of bipolar situations as my brother-in-law is one. Seems as if they have so much confidence after awhile, in their mind no medication is necessary. This incident happened probably ten miles from my home. His wife knew that a real problem was in the works so she also requested paramedics to roll with the police officers. A very unfortunate situation for all involved but could have been preventable if more precautions were addressed. Word is, that he was running naked in traffic but again, that is just heresay. There should be plenty of blame to go around to both sides.
 
Good points - and I am not advocating for either side. I don't think it is heresay either that he was naked, the article says that was what dispatch was told by his wife who made the call. At any rate, the guy was sick and I think that once it got to a certain point, tasing was inevitable. However it looks like the family is arguing that it never should have reached that point. that different measures should have been taken to prevent it. It seems as though they are preparing to argue that the officers relied on the stunning and debilitation capacity of the stun gun too much in this case and did not exhaust other measures, kind of like they used it as a crutch, at least that is what I am reading from the statements posted in the article above. I'll bet that is what their pending lawsuit will state as well and will be the centerpiece of their argument.

So the question comes up - does Law Enforcement rely too heavily on tasing now? Is it a very effective tool that is becoming a first resort rather than a last resort? Taking recently debated tasings in mind (and I will only mention the ones we have debated here on these forums - the case of the kid being tased near Vernal, the grandmother in Texas and now this one) are too many officers pushing themselves too readily (maybe even unconciously) in to a corner where the only option they leave themselves is tasing? It seems like in all these cases everyone thinks there could have been a better way. If so, what is it and how can this be avoided by Law Enforcement in the future?


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
The police are chastised for what they do, and critisized for what they don't. It has always been that way and always will be that way. The police function in the favor of politicians, administration, and the general population. There is no single idea among all those held in common.

In regard to this specific sitation, it is a sad deal. It always is for everyone involved. On one side, the victim nor his family expected the day to end that way. On the other hand, the officers involved would have liked a different outcome as well. Nobody takes use of force issues lightly, and with situations that end like this, no doubt it will weigh heavy on many minds for a long time to come.

Police officers operate under state and federal statute, as well as administrative policy that varies from agency to agency. Generally speaking, any use of force is governed by strict liability under both law and policy guidlines.

Use of force scenarios never play out in a fashion allowing vast quanaties of time to be spent pontificating various methods used to handle the sitation. Often times, the sitation will play out in areas where there is little or no backup, in low light settings, and without the responding officer knowing anywhere near all of the details. Use of force encounters are very rapid and dynamic.

In recent time, the taser has been the buzz word in the media. The taser has been marketed to the public by the media as a controversial tool because controversy sells advertising space in the news market.

There is a reason that the taser has become a common tool used by law enforcement to the extent that its very name is a household word. It added another option of force which takes the place, as an option, of other less desirable options previously open to police. Before the taser, tools open to law enforcement on an equal use of force level included a baton, mace, hard hands force, bean bag shotgun rounds, or gas to name a few. In every one of those alternate options lay more statistical probability for injury to both the officer and the suspect. Every department adopting the taser for use has had a dramatic statistical decrease in officer and suspect injuries. The taser is a highly effective/low impact weapon.

Two factors that play highly into use of force encounters are excited delerium and positional asphyxia. Both can have fatal consequence. In short, both play into use of force encounters where the suspect is highly excitable, expends massive amount of aerobic energy which is sutained for a significant period of time, resulting in a hazzardous recovery period after those events play out. This is not a taser specific scenario. It happened at the same rate of occurance long before the advent of the taser.

Should taser use be scrutinized heavily? Absolutely. Should we beat the taser into plow shares? Only if we want to step ten years back in time.

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Great response .45! It is always easy for the public to be the "Monday morning LEO" by watching a YouTube video and summarizing the whole situation by the few seconds of dashboard cam coverage they see.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-09 AT 11:55AM (MST)[p]Thousands of police officer's have been tazed during the training process. I don't think any of them have ever died from it. It's obvious that additional factors play into taser deaths. What happened to Brian Cardall is tragic. My sympathy goes out to his entire family as well as to the officer who deployed the taser.
Mental subjects are by far the most difficult cases to deal with as an LEO. What other options could have been used? Can you imagine if a couple of officer's had gone hands on with this individual? There's a good chance that "excited delirium" or whatever caused the actual death would have played out and Cardall could have died anyway. Then, we would be discussing some type of Rodney King incident. His case, by the way would have had a much different out come if the police had a taser. Rodney would have never made the news and he would not have received all that tax payers? money.
Another option, the officer's choose to stand around and watch until Cardall is so exhausted he cannot continue. He may very well have died anyway. Then we would be wondering why the police did nothing.
It seems like we ask our public servants to make very difficult, life altering decisions in a matter of seconds. And then when something goes wrong. We want to hang em' high.
One thing for sure, many lives have been changed forever. From all accounts it appears that Brian was a very caring individual. He did not ask for a mental illness. I don't think the police did anything wrong. I don't think Brian deserved this. The question is; what can we learn from this unfortunate event?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-09 AT 03:29PM (MST)[p]Well the Rodney King incident is very different - he actually was tased - twice - but it didn't stop him, apparently the voltage wasn't enough to incapcitate him. And it wasn't the force used to subdue him that made the difference, it was the force used after he had clearly been subdued (in the public perception - and the officer's subsequent acquital)that made it make the news. Here is a video of it, you can see for yourself, it appears that there are several opportunities the officers have to put the cuffs on him even though he is still "resisting". I am not in Law Enforcement so I haven't ever been in a situation like this and can't say what is right. I can say however that three things are certain about Rodney King. #1 - He was resisting - clearly obvious BUT #2 - the situation clearly could have been handled differently as evident by the federal conviction of two of the officers and lastly #3 - the public outcry over this video was what sparked the riots and because of that, Law Enforcement techniques have been greatly modified and scrutinized because of it, so in the end, maybe some greater good did come out of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King

So what do we learn about the Cardall case? Not sure yet, very difficult to determine really at this point in the game, but yes, there are lessons to be learned.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-09 AT 08:16PM (MST)[p]Well Roy. After watching said video I believe the Rodney King incident was a poor example. I didn't even know the taser was an option back then. I watched the video with a young twelve year old. When it finished he asked, "Isn't that an abuse of athourity?" "Did they need to beat him that much?" I guess my memory is fading with age. However; I was just trying to make a point and picked a poor example.
The main theme, I guess is that we use the incident as a way to figure out beter ways to handle these type of situations.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-09 AT 08:27PM (MST)[p]Rodney King was a screwed up sob. The police knew what a piece they were dealing with.

The officers involved were justified in their actions up until one dropped the NNNNNNNNNNNNNNn word then it became racial.
 

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