AI deer relocation 200 head

Gator

Long Time Member
Messages
18,195
I'm really ok with a transplant of Genetic, I just would do the transplant a few weeks before the rut, so that the bucks that are transplanted breed a few does before they are dead if that turns out to be the case, NOW you have breed does with that bucks DNA, I think it beat the hell out transplanting them 6 months ahead of time and have a bunch not make it.
2 cents worth.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Aren't the does being transplanted pregnant with the same genetics.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
doe's carry the same genetics, they don't have to already be pregnant. They are born with them... :)

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
While a waste of money in general (lack of science that its worth even doing) the does are better equipped while pregnant to deal with the stresses of translocation. Its complicated, delicate, and thus the extreme expense. Its interesting that the Henry Mountain resident deer commingle during the winter / rutt with does from other units but those surrounding units don't exactly benefit from that DNA. Genetics are a tiny part of the bigger picture with regard to mule deer. Besides, the AI herd came from another general unit to begin with. I'd rather HUNT that general unit myself.

I'd personally be all for it if the translocation effort was accompanied by different methods of capture and release. That and an open and TRANSPARENT study of each to discover an actually viable method was done in conjunction. That makes sense. But doing this for "genetics" is a waste of money and resources.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
They are not transplanting the deer for genetics. They are moving the deer because there are two many on the island and they have to move some of them off. The deer on Antelope island came from the Wasatch front. They just need to move deer and sheep off of the island because there are too many. They are moving does also and not bucks.
 
Studys have shown that deer get their horn genetics from their mommys lol. I don't know where these studys are but I have heard a few at Sportsmans talking about it lol.
 
>Studys have shown that deer get
>their horn genetics from their
>mommys lol. I don't know
>where these studys are but
>I have heard a few
>at Sportsmans talking about it
>lol.


Are those the same studies that suggest bucks give birth too?

Then why not allow hunters to hunt them and generate money for the island instead of waste money on relocating them when the likelihood is that they are not going to survive anyway? Translocations, especially when not trying new methods and techniques without associated research, are not cost/benefit worthy of even doing.

Or are you advocating the "sacrificial anode theory" of feeding predators translocated deer so that the resident animals can have relief from predators? Hope not.....



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Funny how people think the genitics are shot out in utahs general hunts. The truth is you can't shoot them out. All that's missing is age. You let the deer get the same age on the general unit as the deer on AI and you will have the same quality running arround.

avatar_2528.jpg


who farted?
 
If we do not try to translocate deer we will never learn how to do it. The fact is that the deer need to be moved off the island. Now the DWR can go in and kill them or we can try to translocate them to new areas. You will never learn without at least trying something.
 
>If we do not try to
>translocate deer we will never
>learn how to do it.
> The fact is that
>the deer need to be
>moved off the island.
>Now the DWR can go
>in and kill them or
>we can try to translocate
>them to new areas.
>You will never learn without
>at least trying something.

And how do we learn? By doing the same damned thing that fails over and over and over gain? Really?

There needs to be alternative methods designed, proposed, and then STUDIED so that translocating them becomes something more than an exersize in doing something because they said so. The cost to benefit sucks without some kind of method to the madness and a goal. If the goal is to feed predators in new areas, say so. If they are going to study methods of capture and relocation, say so. If they're just wanting to remove mouths from the island at the cost of funds that could be better spent elsewhere, say so.



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Will Kilzdad they are trying different ways both in capture and location. Maybe you did not notice the last relocation that they did it different times of the year to see if one works better than the other. Yes they are keeping all the info on what is going on trying to learn new and better ways. What works and does not work. I know that you seem to know everything so maybe you should be helping out with all your knowledge instead of blasting everything someone tries.
 
>Will Kilzdad they are trying different
>ways both in capture and
>location. Maybe you did
>not notice the last relocation
>that they did it different
>times of the year to
>see if one works better
>than the other. Yes
>they are keeping all the
>info on what is going
>on trying to learn new
>and better ways. What
>works and does not work.
> I know that you
>seem to know everything so
>maybe you should be helping
>out with all your knowledge
>instead of blasting everything someone
>tries.

The Southern Utah project has goals and objectives and the COR for this required private funding and an associated study. The translocation project is coming up on barely a year in the three year timeline. Doesn't take a genius to see that the cost of research increases the total cost of each animal to well over $1000.00. I don't know it all, but you do....at least what you've been spoon fed or what your latest wildlife policy suppository causes you to believe you know.....So, how about it? Cost per animal, goal and purpose of the animals in each location? How many of the AI deer being removed with be collared? Will there be fawn survival data collected? Who's funding the research, if any? Overall objective and purpose of translocation? Those are the questions I have but couldn't find in the MINUTES of the working or public WB meeting outside of just removing mouths from AI to locations where deer are below objective. Simple math much? Were you here in Southern Utah during the capture of those does? Do some research and put the bib and spoon away.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Research is expensive but without research we will not find out what is going on. The more that is known now, the better it will be in the future. When we find out the best way to do translocations it will become cheaper to do. The purpose is to learn what we need to do so that we can translocate deer that are becoming a problem. After all we do have areas in the State that require deer removal and hunting is not an option. The 200 AL deer will be collard and yes there will be fawn survival data taken just like there has been on this last translocation. I don't know who is funding the research on this next movement of deer but I am sure the money will be provided as it is something that the division whats to do and there is more and more transplanting taking place in Utah. The reason that the deer are coming off of AL is because the division must move them. Too many deer on the island. The parks dept will not allow the public to take the deer so either the division must go in and kill them or translocate them. Maybe you need to attend the RAC's as the big game rules are going on right now. My research on this is attending the RAC and WLB meetings as well as the other meetings the division holds to find out the facts. Maybe you should try the same. It has been a big topic at their meetings. Not going to get in a pissing match with you kilzdad but that is what is going on. That is from the divisions mouth.
 
I do not live in Utah and do not have any first hand information about the relocation of the deer herd mentioned.
As I understand the above posts, the herd is located on an island which makes it hard for the deer to migrate on their own.
The Parks Dept. that controls the island will not allow more tags to be given out to hunters in order to reduce the herd.
That leaves just three other options. Game control hunters come in and shoot X number of deer to reduce herd size so that they will not eat away their habitat food supply.

Relocation done to reduce herd and increase herd size where needed in other parts of the state.

The third option is one you do not want to see as it happen about 20 years ago in one of the Southern states. It also involved a deer herd located on a island and had reached the point the game game dept relized the herd was over populated to the point it would not have enough habitat to support the deer herd that coming winter.
Game dept decided to issue about 75 more tags to hunters, including doe tags to reduce the herd. Then comes along old Cleveland Amnory and his friends of animals group and they file a lawsuit to stop the hunt and they themselfs would trap the deer and remove them to another location that had habitat to support them.

The courts went along with old Cleveland Amrony and his misguided animal friends group went in to the island to start their live trapping.
Needless to say the group did not know shinola about trapping deer and captured a grand total of ONE deer. That winter over 75% of the herd died off due to starvation. Most of the older deer, can you say trophy bucks, and fawns were the first to die. Not a very good option in my point of view. If hunting is not a viable option, I would prefer to see the trapping and relocation by people that have experience doing it.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 01:42AM (MST)[p]Nobody wants the "antis" to get a footing in Utah but I doubt they can refute the science. I'm also not denying, Ken, that there is a need for study of translocation and that the animals on AI are over objective and capacity. Something needs to be done. However, I've read the packet and minutes to the meetings (same as being there) and can't find specific answers to my questions. This I found rediculous:

"Addendum to the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources Statewide Management Plan for Mule Deer

The purpose of this addendum to the Utah statewide management plan for mule deer is to provide a list of possible transplant sites for mule deer in Utah. The statewide mule deer plan was last revised in 2008, and did not include any information on transplants or identify any mule deer release locations. However, since that time, it has been determined that transplanting mule
deer may be a viable management tool to help bolster low or struggling mule deer populations. Additionally, transplanting deer may be helpful to reduce populations that are above population objective or causing habitat damage. The following table and figure identify potential release sites for mule deer in Utah. These sites were chosen because they have adequate deer habitat (summer and winter) with low deer densities, they historically have supported larger deer numbers than they currently are, they are in relatively isolated or remote areas, and they have minimal disease risks or concerns. Before being transplanted, all mule deer will be tested for Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). If an animal tests positive it will be euthanized and disposed of properly."

Who, when, and where were transplants found to be viable? I'm all for identifying potential sites, but the discussion to relocate animals for the sake of "doing SOMETHING" doesn't cut it. So, they won't issue more tags because of the lame ass park service, figures. I'm not now, nor have I ever been a fan of that agency. Why not allow those deer to be used for studying effective sedation compounds? Why not allow research to be conducted on soft release vs the hard release of opening the trailer and letting them loose? WHERE is the instruction of the wildlife board to make those 200 animals something more than just a warm fuzzy pet project? Collaring those deer is going to push the cost to almost $1500.00 or more dollars per animal depending on the kind of transmitter. Who's going to donate the $300,000.00 to capture, collar, transport, and release those deer? I know where we can get $300,000.00 but I'm sure that's already been spent on "consultation fees". The division doesn't have money to just throw at whatever they want. Especially not money on something that so far, is a NON VIABLE tool for "conservation". I'd rather a human either eat or study those deer hands on and if you can provide PROOF, Ken, that a study is going to accompany this and how its paid for, I'll just right on board and shut up. So far, I can't find anything. Where's your fearless leaders from sfw? They could write that check in a second, right? Same COR conditions as the Southern Utah project and lets see what can be done. I'm tired.....so I'll wait for PROOF of your claims. Not just because someone said so. You can do it. You're smart enough to manage that.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 08:50AM (MST)[p]Kilzdad, Proof proof proof. you are interesting. I am telling you what has been talked about in some of the meetings that the state has held that were open to the public. I am also telling you what was talked about at the RAC. Those statements come from the DWR officials. I listen in person to what is said. I attend the meetings and know what is said. I do not read the packets for the proposal of minutes. I attend the meetings and see what is really said and what questions are ask. There is a BIG difference. People at the meetings ask questions like you are asking and they get the answers. I am not a big shot in SFW. I don't know who is paying for this. If SFW is I do not know but I do know from the DWR meetings that it has to be done. I do know that they will study the deer, collar the deer and check for any problems with the deer. They have to take the relocation spots through the RAC for public notifications before they can do this. Thus the RAC and questions are being ask by the public. The fact that you do not attend and ask the questions yourself means you really do not care about what is going on. It will be done and it will be paid for one way or the other.
Now there is no more for me to say on the subject and what I just said has been said in RACs and meetings for the public. Kilzdad, you show me where I have not told the truth on this subject.
 
FWIW, I attended the Southern RAC meeting and asked a bunch of questions about this proposal, but I didn't get into the finances. I'll be sure to ask about that at the board meeting. I did, however, have a short visit with Justin after the meeting and he indicated that they were, indeed, going to try some things that were different from the Parowan Front transplant, including the capture.

We didn't get into the study, but I know all the deer will be collared because they have to be tested for CWD which takes a while in the lab, and any deer testing positive has to be identified in the field and put down. They'll also do the reproduction/fawn count.

I also dazzled him with my vast knowledge about the possible causes of the translocation failures and he politely listened without comment, so I don't know if he was just being polite or if some of it had an impact, but, at least he didn't dispute my thoughts. There's a LOT MORE to translocating mule deer than just picking them up and plunking them down whenever and wherever. They're much more of a risk for translocation than other species due to their high matabolism, smaller stomach chambers, species-specific (and maybe soil-specific) microbes that do the actual digestion, and because of their herding instincts and matriarchal social structure. I don't mean to go Disney on you, but think of picking up, at random, some of your female neighbors and sedating them and picking, poking and measuring them for a study and then putting them in a trailer to take them to Vegas (or New York or Houston or even a similar town in Utah 100 miles away). We have the ability to reason things out, to communicate ideas and the compassion (hopefully) to help one another, but deer don't have those things. And if a transloction would be tough for us, it's much tougher for deer.

In any case, since this translocation is our only current option for AI, let's hope that DWR is making some changes so we learn something different from the Parowan Front translocation. And, personally, I hope this is being paid for with private funds because I think it's too early in the game to call it viable enough to spend public funds.
 
I have some neighbors I'd like to pick, measure and poke! Does that count for anything?

There's only one viable option to reduce the population on the Rock. Move them and hope for the best.

Oh by the way, some of you guys are pretty damn sharp and I've learned and enjoyed reading this civil thread.

Zeke
 
>Hey Zeke, I'm with ya on
>this one. I'd like
>to poke the neighbor lady
>next door, LOL!


I think you should post a pic. so we can guess size up the rack?
 
>>Hey Zeke, I'm with ya on
>>this one. I'd like
>>to poke the neighbor lady
>>next door, LOL!
>
>
>I think you should post a
>pic. so we can guess
>size up the rack?

I'm a pretty good judge of racks. I can't explain it but I know when I like it! I've always been good with doing quick math in my head!


Ok enough fantasy land stuff, back to reality.
Sorry I started us off track since this is an informative and important topic.
Someone please get us back to the excellent discussion.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 02:01?PM (MST)

>
>Oh by the way, some of
>you guys are pretty damn
>sharp and I've learned and
>enjoyed reading this civil thread.
>
>
>Zeke

Apparently, some of us guys aren't quite sharp enough or maybe just a little too nieve. I'm gonna hafta watch my language a lot more. :)

Edited to get us back on track: I've learned a lot about translocating deer since January, but there's obviously a lot I don't know and, apparently, a lot that the biologists don't know, but this last effort and the upcoming efforts on AI (and elsewhere in Utah) are being and will be monitored not only by UDWR, but throughout the west and, even now, other states are already planning on following our lead. And while I hate to see the doe hunts discontinued at this point, I suspect a noticeable increase in the herd populations or an uncontestable failure will bring them back. I've heard people say that just saving one is better than shooting them all, but at what cost? And we're not talking just about money. We're talking time, manpower, safety and lost hunting opportunity. The translocation isn't as simple as seen on TV and neither is the impact. We're already in it so let's keep track of it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13 AT 10:20PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-13
>AT 08:50?AM (MST)

>
>Kilzdad, Proof proof proof.
>you are interesting. I
>am telling you what has
>been talked about in some
>of the meetings that the
>state has held that were
>open to the public.
>I am also telling you
>what was talked about at
>the RAC. Those statements
>come from the DWR officials.
> I listen in person
>to what is said.
>I attend the meetings and
>know what is said.
>I do not read the
>packets for the proposal of
>minutes. I attend the
>meetings and see what is
>really said and what questions
>are ask. There is
>a BIG difference. People
>at the meetings ask questions
>like you are asking and
>they get the answers.
>I am not a big
>shot in SFW. I don't
>know who is paying for
>this. If SFW is
>I do not know but
>I do know from the
>DWR meetings that it has
>to be done. I
>do know that they will
>study the deer, collar the
>deer and check for any
>problems with the deer.
>They have to take the
>relocation spots through the RAC
>for public notifications before they
>can do this. Thus
>the RAC and questions are
>being ask by the public.
> The fact that you
>do not attend and ask
>the questions yourself means you
>really do not care about
>what is going on. It
>will be done and it
>will be paid for one
>way or the other.
> Now there is
>no more for me to
>say on the subject and
>what I just said has
>been said in RACs and
>meetings for the public.
>Kilzdad, you show me where
>I have not told the
>truth on this subject.

Let me explain something. The audio of the RACS and WB meetings are there and the minutes explain a lot and contain verbatim discussions. Transcripts if you will. I've listened to the meetings and read the minutes, how's that different than attending every single one in person? I also communicate with RAC and WB members via email if I need to express my thoughts or ask questions. Same as with biologists and managers. They always respond graciously no matter their position on an issue.

Concerning proof. Every single damned post I've read from you is because YOU heard something or YOU were told something by someone taking them solely at their word which tells me you lack the ability to research something and form your own opinion based on your own knowledge. I've asked for proof because I can provide it and I have given actual proof to you both on public forums and in PMs. Yet, nothing from you other than, "someone said so" and then you try to degrade my efforts to understand. As elkfromabove posted, many discussions happen outside the range of a microphone and often not in a completely official capacity. I'm simply asking for proof. Elkfromabove gave an example of what proof is. And if anyone tries to poke my wife, you might ask those who know me just how big a boy I am and my disposition, or lack there of, when protecting friends and family! Regardless, I know have answers, no thanks to you, Ken. Thanks for the info, Lee!!!! I can now support the project yet I too hope its funded by private funds so as to keep tag prices down until cost/benefit is proven to be sustainable.




"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 

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