Abolish the point system!

N

nitis

Active Member
Messages
483
This really ought to get some people on here fired up!

As many of you know I am a proponet of a well conducted point system. Being said California's sucks!

Does anyone know who one could contact to voice my concerns too. I would even go so far as to try and start a petition to change it.

The problem I have with it is its just not a good system our youth are being left behind with very little opportunity to draw x zone tags. By the time my son is old enough to apply the max point will be well over 20 and there will still be people with max points trying to get G3! not to mention all the people lined up behind them.

DO I have a perfect remedy no but can we do 50% random instead of a mere 10?

Pleas dont flame on me just want to hear ideas and if anyone knows who I can contact at fish and game or the state level.

Also try and stay on topic lets not get inot poor mangement of game thats another story
 
I guarantee you that ALL forms of hunting will be banned in this state before the point system will be altered.....in which case, your efforts will be moot.......but I support you all the way!

"I could agree with you, but then we would both be
wrong......and stupid"
 
>I guarantee you that ALL forms
>of hunting will be banned
>in this state before the
>point system will be altered.....in
>which case, your efforts will
>be moot.......but I support you
>all the way!
>
>"I could agree with you, but
>then we would both be
>
>wrong......and stupid"
I was thinking the same thing.
 
They can only issue tags if there are deer to hunt. Seems the mountain lions have pretty well weeded out the herds.
 
G3 is a bad example. I have been trying for that hunt since I was a kid and it was calles something like SX-2. I have max points now and may never draw. I do agree that our system sucks, but as others have stated it would be hard to change. And may not matter if our herds keep declining or we lose our guns & hunting priveliges in this liberal state.

Bill
 
Wow do any of u guys hunt kALI turkeys? Some of the best huntin around!Tons of oppertunety and 3 birds every spring.I like our big game point system. All 4 of my boys had great youth hunts in Kali. Yes I have max points only because I have chose to get in line, a few of my kids chose not to wait and hunt lesser units. ITS YOUR CHIOCE! Lots of 2nd choice hunts as well...a good point system but Nevada has a better one in my opinion. BH1
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-13 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]Preference is wrong for stuff with so little opportunity that most will die before drawing and death and old age turns the pools over so everyone who draws is very old as time goes on... Like sheep and tule elk. if you choose to hold out for deer hunts like Goodale, that is your choice. Preference is cool for stuff that turns over somewhat regularily, like most deer hunts...
 
I for one like the system. But then again I dont hold out for hunts that take a lifetime to draw. As for the elk, sheep, and lope tags I personally know several people who have drawn these tags with less than max points. I gurantee you when my little one turns 12 she will be put in for all the big game hunts and will start earning points or draw a tag. Its the way it is not only in california but most states. Get over it! heck when we were kids do you think they had jr tags, or hunts NO did we let it bother us Heck no
 
I like the NV system as well. Everyone still has a chance (including the kids) but your odds get exponentially better the more points you have.

What would greatly help the deer draw would be to place a 10-20% cap on the nonresident quota. Seems like we are the only western state to not have a NR cap on the deer tags...

Horniac
 
>I like the NV system as
>well. Everyone still has a
>chance (including the kids) but
>your odds get exponentially better
>the more points you have.
>
>
>What would greatly help the deer
>draw would be to place
>a 10-20% cap on the
>nonresident quota. Seems like we
>are the only western state
>to not have a NR
>cap on the deer tags...
>
>
>Horniac

That's because very few non-residents actually want to hunt our deer.
 
It would be intersting to see how many of the 4,836 G3 and 2,190 G37 applicants are NR and how many NR tags are issued for these hunts and some of the other premium deer hunts as well as how many NR's have max deer points...

Horniac
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-13 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]Abolish the point system? No, i can't agree with that. I could see a slight tweaking of the present system to accommodate those new to the game but many have been patiently standing in line a long time now and that should be worth something more than a, "fagetdaboutit, let's start over".

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I currently have max points for everything like most of you guys on this forum so selfishly I want to keep the existing system as well. I would Iike to draw at least one of rhe best deer hunts in CA before I am too old to hunt. I have been putting in for over 25 years thus far to no avail and the odds haven't got all that much better - even with max points since the start of the preference point system. With that said, I am certainly not complaining sitting on max points, but feel bad for those without especially our younger generation, since they most likely never have the same opportunity to draw these hunts once they any no longer eligible for any comparable apprentice hunts...

Horniac
 
My pipe dream is that everyone keeps their points but we convert to a draw like nevada has to the letter. I want to be able to apply for g3 as a first choice hey I might get lucky but still have a chance to draw other hunts as well

That's why nevadas system is great they draw by the hunter not the zone/hunt. And the more points you have the better your odds but no guarantees
 
To the letter means you would lose your point if you draw your second through 5th choice is that what you would really want if you didn't get g-3 as your first choice?
My daughters on her last year going into the draw as a junior she has three points I have been holding her out for the better deer hunts because huntings not that big of a deal to her,If she dosent draw her first choice junior hunt this year more then Likely she will draw a x zone and have a chance at a 25 to 28 inch buck.
Now for antelope,elk and sheep that's where kids are screwd or anybody else that gets into the game late.
 
Actually yes to the letter because I would apply for g3 then some x zones like 5b 3b then do say x12 last. If I get lucky I get lucky but I still get to hunt

I've hunted nevada 2 of the last three years granted once was antelope
 
Good thread nitis.
Problem is, everyone is in a different boat.
I honestly like our system but then again I too don't hunt or even apply for tough draw zones. I get to hunt every year in CA, sometimes with two tags. Where else can you do that?

I agree that the younger generations will definitely be behind in the point system after a certain point. However, from the age of 12-15 they sure have some amazing opportunities. Both my neice and nephew drew J12 in the same year. To say they got a little spolied that year is an understatement.

The NV point system is great if you get lucky. It can also be unpredictable and frustrating to plan the year you are indeed going to draw.

I do like the idea of putting a cap on non-resident tags though, no matter how few apply. We have limited opportunity when applying to other states, so should they. I guess if we had more in depth statistics like NV does, we'd could gauge that matter more accurately.

I do think 75% max/25% random is a good start.
 
Both my boys drew a m-9 tag one right after the other b-4 the draw system was implemented, i have yet to draw one and I started b-4 the BP system as well, so I'm going on max points this year, but if you wanna complain write a letter to the commish?
 
Nevada squares your points. If you keep your points, lets say 8 pts, You would have your name in the hat 64 times! Someone with no pts would have there name in once. But at least they would have a slight chance. The way it is now, if you drew x5b last year, its probably the last time you will ever hunt there again! Thats a brutal thought.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-13 AT 01:56AM (MST)[p]I saw that you posted this thread on another forum so I'll copy and paste my input here as well.

Two years prior to the preference point system I drew X-12 two years in a row. One local in Bridgeport was not happy when I told him this. He had put in 12 years without drawing. Now he can draw every 3 years. At least with the current system you will just about know if you will draw a tag or not. The bonus point system will not guarantee you a tag even if you have the most points.

There are exactly 7 of 71 CA deer hunts that require max points to have a chance at drawing one of the 90% allocated to the preference point draw. Other than these 7 hunts all other X-Zones hunts require no more than 5 points, except X5b which requires 8 points. Most Area-Specific archery hunts require 3 or less points to draw. Only 2 Area-Specific archery hunts require 8 points (less than max). None require Max points.

My point is this: there are plenty of good hunts that you don't have to wait a lifetime to have a chance at drawing. I feel you would be better off drawing a tag in a zone you can hunt every 3 or 4 years and really get a chance to learn the zone rather than wait 10, 15, or 20 years to hunt one time. If having a chance at a monster buck is your concern than you can do that every other year in Colorado. It doesn't cost that much more to hunt Colorado for one week than it does to hunt 4 weekends in California.

Not everyone shoots a monster buck in the primo CA zones. Of all the CA deer I've seen posted on these forums that were taken the last few years most of them were taken in the non-max point zones or even in D-zones. I'm not overly impressed with the bucks I've seen come out of the max-point zones.

The only thing I may suggest, although not necessarily, is to allot more tags to the random draw, maybe 20% instead of 10%. But doing so will mean less tags in the preference draw, thereby increasing the required points needed to draw and a slower turnover of hunters.

My suggestion to make changes would have more to do with season changes. It would be nice for the season for general deer hunts to get pushed back a couple weeks so we can hunt some decent weather, or maybe add some late season hunts throughout the state.
 
20 or 25% would be a step in the right direction. But I would also like to see something like nevada in the sense that they draw by the hunter not the hunt. So you could apply for more than one x zone or premium hunt and maybe draw your second or third choice. There is one hunt in California I really want and it's not g3. However there are a few others including x12 I wouldn't mind hunting.

Your numbers are pretty good thought out info and fairly accurate. I guess maybe there could just be a glut of max point apps at the top of g3 and all others are Turing their points over regurally so the future may not be to bad. I personally am 3 points behind max no way I am waiting that out. I am finally in the mix this year to draw the hunt I have been waiting for.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-13 AT 00:58AM (MST)[p]Good points Rob. I would rather hunt one zone every few years than wait a lifetime for one as well. If I did have max points at this stage, I'd be holding out to the bitter end though. At least the guys with max points can still get a half way decent tag every year for the time being until they do draw their dream tag.

As for season changes, pushing general back and/or creating new late hunts will always have a toll. That toll is quality.
For the x zones around my parts, a 24 day season should be plenty of time for hunters to catch a storm.
If they ever did decide to push back general, I think a shorter season would somewhat counter the affects it could have on quality.
 
Whine....whine....whine! There is nothing wrong with our system here in CA. I have max points for deer (yeah, I'm holding out to hunt Goodale someday) but that's my choice. Still, I manage to hunt every year in my home zone D-6 and have the opportunity to harvest year in and year out. I can even pick up an AO tag and hunt a variety of zones or an additional general tag for the A zone or D3-5 depending on my mood that year. No other state in the west provides the opportunity to harvest 2 blacktail or muley bucks. If you wanna just sit back and complain I guess that's your right. I say get off your butt and hunt! If you don't...well you are just leaving more deer on the mountain for the rest of us that will.
 
I always harvest at least one buck in California every year and usually hunt another state almost every year I am not just sitting back. I don't like the system and that's that. You have your view I have mine

You do realize you could be waiting upwards and over twenty year to get that tag right?

Honestly my biggest problem with the draw system in California is you basically have to commit to what hunt you want like you have with the gooddale. I would like to have a crack at multiple hunts like nevada does.
 
Since the points thing started here, i have earned enough points to draw/hunt X-5a then saved enough to hunt X3a, both pretty decent or better Muley hunts, and now about have enough points for another muley hunt in a overlooked if not too bad a unit. When i don't draw my X's picks, i have drawn a C tag, where i live, every year as second choice, every year, and do get a p. point to boot. If i happened not to draw a C zone tag second choice, i'll get a B zone tag and still get to go hunt! Just saying but if not for the points, doubt i'd have drawn any of those good tags or my Ca. Antelope tag either.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I hear the phrase I have X number of chances under another system because they cube/square/double the points. That is not a very good measure of actual odds. What are the actual odds of getting a tag under those systems? If you can put in for multiple hunts like Nevada you can count of more people putting G3 as their first choice then the next X-zone, etc. So the guy who wants only X-12 or X5A or whatever zone it is may not get that tag because it was someones fifth choice and they really did not care about hunting that zone. Every system has pluses and minuses. Someone tell me the actual odds of getting a tag with various point scenarios for CA and another state and then you can really see what the odds are. Again, every system has pluses and minuses and you will never satisfy everyone, it is impossible, remember also that the depending on the draw system people will change what they put in for. I do not have the numbers with me but as an example say 3,000 people now put in for G3 but with a system where you can draw up to your fifth hunt, well heck 20,000 people now put G3 as their first choice. You can first figure the odds with the number of applicants being equal but depending on the system the number of applicants will change. There are only so many tags issued and when you have more people putting in for those hunts you are going to have people not draw, no system fixes that. Just my thoughts for today.

Joe
 
I'm not a big fan of the CA draw system. It does reward those that put in the time to apply for years, but for those that don't or are new it's one of the worst systems out there.

I have max points in CA for everything and cannot draw a tag. In comparison, I have drawn 4 tags in NV, which included 2 pronghorn hunts and two deer hunts (one deer hunt was a unit 231 muzzy hunt too). Crazy to think that I cannot draw a tag in my own home state with max points, but can in NV without max pts. Hence the benefit to their system...the chance of being able to draw every year.

The CA system isn't attractive to new applicants if those applicants wanted to hunt one of the better hunts in CA. NV's system rewards those that apply every year, but also cracks the door for those new to the applying there.

The added benefit also to their system is that it rids the higher point pools of those that just want to hunt i.e. those that put down 5 choices which include the best/hardest draw hunts down to the mediocre/easier draw hunts. When they draw one of their lower choices (easier tag to draw) it takes them out of the point pool that was giving them the benefit of having their points squared. This is good for a guy like me that puts in for very specific hunts and is willing to say no to the easier draws in order to hunt some of the better units.

In CA we don't have this occurring. When you apply for G3 as a first choice and don't draw it you get a point and that's it. You don't loose your points if you draw a second or third choice. If you did loose you points I think you'd see the number of max applicants in CA dwindle at a much faster rate, which would benefit those guys that are determined to hunt certain zones.
 
Well I'm just the opposite when it comes to luck you have had tuleelk and more like sage. I've drawn 2 x-zone tags in the last 9 years and I'm just a couple out for a 3rd hopefully. For near 30 years I put in for lopes here in CA and couldn't draw. Once they went to the pts. system I finally drew it with max points a few years back and then 2 years later I hit one of the random tags also, so it does happen with the random drawings. I'm sitting on max for Elk so hopefully that's soon too. In NV I've been putting in for 8 years now and haven't hit a tag yet for deer, lope, CA sheep, Desert sheep and Elk. Now hopefully maybe this will be my year to hit something but it hasn't happened yet. So right now I'm liking CA system a bit better and while I'm waiting to draw the zone I want I can hunt 2 bucks a year in the meantime, as stated above. I don't get that option in NV. Now, I hope I didn't jinx myself for the NV draw this year dang it............lol
 
Man I would definately question what you are applying for in nevada or what order you make your choices. Maybe you are going for elite or late hunts?

Great points made by the past few posts.
 
+1 nitis...

downhill,

If you have 8 pts for deer in NV then you are holding out for more of the premium hunts (241-245, 221-223L, 081, 196,196, 015, 033L, etc.) or possibly it could be just the luck of the odds. My buddy has drawn a pronghorn tag and a PIW deer dag with zero points in the last couple of years. There's the luck of the draw again at work. He's so hooked on NV that he's applying for points from now on. The hunting is too good!!

For me I'll take the NV odds game over the CA system or any states' system in fact. In NV I'm up to 11 pts for elk and desert BHS and I relish the fact that I will have 122 chances this year to pull a low number and if it's low enough hopefully a tag.

If I die never pulling an elk or BHS tag in NV I will be bummed, but I feel it's given me the best chance at drawing a tag each and every year I apply.

BTW...as a NR you should respect a state, like NV, that sets aside tags specifically for us. Many other states (AZ, NM, ID, etc.) don't care enough for the NR to dedicate a set percentage of tags to us each year.
 
Sorry one more rant...

I think if states get better draw systems, set aside a percentage of tags specifically to NR and get creative with some other stuff they'd likely see an increase in revenue.

This year NV is starting the option of being selected as an alternate if not drawn. This does three important things: 1) gives someone that cannot make their hunt a way out, 2) allows someone that wanted the same hunt available to them if they're an alternate and 3) increased revenue for the state by collecting tag fees from the cancellation and from the alternate (two tag fees and one tag). Some may think it's a scam, but in the end it meets everyone's needs...from the hunter returning the tag, to another hunter that wanted the same tag to the state generating more revenue.

I just wish NV would do away with the policy of loosing their bonus points to purchase a left-over deer tag. There were a handful of mediocre archery tags left last year after the draw and I would have picked one up, but I wasn't about to loose 6 pts on one. NV could have generated more revenue had this not been the case.
 
Bwhnt4x4. You and me see things a lot alike

Mini Idaho rant. As it stands now you have to buy a license to apply and you can't get a refund for your license. And then you really only have on choice and then there is no guarantee that any nonresident will draw a tag in that hunt.

I firmly believe if they put in any point system they would have more than significant increase in revenue. As it stands now I don't ever even apply unless I have not drawn nevada or am not inline for a California tag. It would be interesting if they changed the application deadline to march to see what woul happen to applicant counts.
 
No guys, you're wrong. While I do put in for a couple long shot top end hunts I always put in all 5 choices and usually the last one being an easier to draw hunt. So it's been just real bad luck so far I'm guessing? Now this year I did stick with some harder to draw units because I do have the 7, or is it 8 points going in. That's the trap I'm in now, I have so much $ invested I don't want to draw just any unit now. Oh well, it's like gambling, maybe this year will be the lucky one? I have some friends in NV and my son lives there so I at least do get to use the license for a chucker hunt now and then.
 
I'm curious what you are considering easier draw hunts are in NV. It looks like in 2012 and 2011 you put in for 194 as a first choice and in 2010 you put in for 081 as a first choice. Those are two of the toughest tags to draw for a NR. If your fourth and fifth choices are still a unit with odds greater than 20 to 1 that's still a tough road to buck the odds. Odds of say 10 to 1 or less are going to get you a tag much sooner.

However, I'm with you though and wouldn't spend the 7 or 8 points you have now on an easy hunt. Stick to your plan of drawing a premium hunt at least once so you can have that experience. I'm back up to 6 points and after I draw my next tag in a "better" unit I'm going to start applying for all archery hunts so I can get out there more often. I've got a water hole I found in an easy to draw unit that I can shoot a buck any night I sit on it. I'd like to give that a shot in the future.
 
Bwht4x4, like I said, I do put in for hard ones first. And I have put in for the lesser odds hunts (under10-1). First couple of years I put in for a couple of archery hunts for my last 2 picks and didn't hit them. Also have put in for MZ hunts and early rifle hunts. Just been unlucky so far when it comes to NV, but hopefully that changes real soon. I probably should have stayed with a couple of more archery hunts after the first couple of years but they hook you in once you start getting more than 3 BP's. I too don't like that you loose all of your BP's if you draw on the leftovers draw or I would do that for sure. And I see you have me at a disadvantage because you can look at my profile and look back at what my 1st choice has been while your profile is enabled? I might want to see what you put in for on your 1st choices too! :) Anyway good luck to you in the draws. PM me if you have anymore questions so we don't give away all our information...
 
Good luck to you dh, I think it's your year to draw. I've got about 35 to 40 applications out this year so all of my NV choices for each species were premium hunts so any tag I get this year in NV would be great.
 
nitis said:
I always harvest at least one buck in California every year and usually hunt another state almost every year I am not just sitting back. I don't like the system and that's that. You have your view I have mine

You do realize you could be waiting upwards and over twenty year to get that tag right?

Honestly my biggest problem with the draw system in California is you basically have to commit to what hunt you want like you have with the gooddale. I would like to have a crack at multiple hunts like nevada does.
Click to expand...
Just looking back through some of these old threads today.... Nickman was right, I actually had to wait 22 years to draw the Goodale tag. And you know what? IT WAS WORTH IT.
 
Glad you drew it. I have been trying since it was SX3 I think it was called. Like you said in another post, most guys drawing this tag are on the older side. I myself turned 60 this year.
 
Congrats on drawing it @highsierra . I was one off max due to my age when the point system was created so I gave up on the G3 dream. I figure ill be mid 60s by the time I can get my elk points burned.
 
Horniac said:
What would greatly help the deer draw would be to place a 10-20% cap on the nonresident quota. Seems like we are the only western state to not have a NR cap on the deer tags...

Horniac
Click to expand...

California shares 1 (one) elk tag with NRs (and it is often a cow tag). And shares just one ram tag with NRs. And One (1) promghorn tag. Sharing WAY under 1% with your neighbors.

You are correct - CA has been far too generous with non resident hunters. Everyone just comes to CA and takes, takes, takes.
 
Crampy said:
California shares 1 (one) elk tag with NRs (and it is often a cow tag). And shares just one ram tag with NRs. And One (1) promghorn tag. Sharing WAY under 1% with your neighbors.

You are correct - CA has been far too generous with non resident hunters. Everyone just comes to CA and takes, takes, takes.
Click to expand...
This is not correct up to ten percent of the available sheep tags can be drawn NR, 1 elk tag statewide, 1 antelope tag statewide, they made a proposal to change it to up to 10 percent which I personally agree with. As far as deer NR are treated like residents with no quota.
 
It's pretty simple:

People who have drawn and burned their max points under the preference system want it changed to something else.

People who haven't drawn and still have max don't want it changed.
 
BradA said:
This is not correct up to ten percent of the available sheep tags can be drawn NR, 1 elk tag statewide, 1 antelope tag statewide, they made a proposal to change it to up to 10 percent which I personally agree with. As far as deer NR are treated like residents with no quota.
Click to expand...

So, Ram is "up to 10%". Often way less. One ram tag most years. And elk and promghorn are exactly 1 NR tag.

Whereas other states don't use "up to 10%", language. Instead they guarantee NRs a 10% set aside.

Yes, no NR deer quota. But look at how few NR tags are actually issued. (<10 rifle tags).

My point is: no state is less generous to NRs than California. You don't need more NR discrimination in CA.
 
Crampy said:
So, Ram is "up to 10%". Often way less. One ram tag most years. And elk and promghorn are exactly 1 NR tag.

Whereas other states don't use "up to 10%", language. Instead they guarantee NRs a 10% set aside.

Yes, no NR deer quota. But look at how few NR tags are actually issued. (<10 rifle tags).

My point is: no state is less generous to NRs than California. You don't need more NR discrimination in CA.
Click to expand...
The issue becomes more so the opportunity doesn't even exist for residents let alone non res. Most Res will never draw an Antelope or Elk either.


Not quite sure where you get the less generous. Maybe in Elk and Antelope yes. Everything else NRs have the same opportunity as a Res. Come get deer tags, turkey tags , fall turkey ect.

Here are how many non res applied for CA hunts.

Deer 1471
Elk 2498
Ram 1187
Antelope 832


Below are the largest chunks NR just like in all states are mostly applying for premium hunts. There are a pile of hunts that are 1-4 points that NR can apply for and get the hunt.

5% applied for G3
4% applied for X5B
2.5% applied for G1
5% applied for X12
2.5% applied for M3
2.5% applied for X9a
23% applied for preference points

To give you an idea AZ has non res applying for
Deer 64,320
Antelope 32,016
Elk 52,742
Turkey 8223
Javalina 17436

Can't draw if you don't apply or understand the system your applying in.
 
California is quickly becoming the best otc opportunity state for nr, bear tags, deer tags x2, pig tags, turkey opportunities. I think we give a fair share to nr but I do agree sheep, Elk and antelope as well as deer should be up to ten percent. Most states are either 10 percent to nr or up to 10 percent to nr.
 
CA gave out 1-2 NR ram tags. AZ gave out over 20.


CA gave out 1 NR elk tag. CO alone gave out thousands.

WY gave out 1 NR pronghorn buck tag. WY gives out thousands.

Whether calculated in raw numbers or percentages, CA is among the most selfish of our 50 states for any high value tags.

Sure, lockdown CA deer NR allocation to match. And then scratch your head about why other western states are less inviting to Californians.
 
BradA said:
California is quickly becoming the best otc opportunity state for nr, bear tags, deer tags x2, pig tags, turkey opportunities. I think we give a fair share to nr but I do agree sheep, Elk and antelope as well as deer should be up to ten percent. Most states are either 10 percent to nr or up to 10 percent to nr.
Click to expand...
Not sure about all other states. But most I hunt NR fees supply major funding for their wildlife programs. California does not rely on out of state funds.
 
Crampy said:
CA gave out 1-2 NR ram tags. AZ gave out over 20.


CA gave out 1 NR elk tag. CO alone gave out thousands.

WY gave out 1 NR pronghorn buck tag. WY gives out thousands.

Whether calculated in raw numbers or percentages, CA is among the most selfish of our 50 states for any high value tags.

Sure, lockdown CA deer NR allocation to match. And then scratch your head about why other western states are less inviting to Californians.
Click to expand...
No one wants to hunt California anyway so what’s it matter. I think everyone agrees that California should increase the nr opportunity for antelope and elk to up to 10 percent. This is a ten year old post, why was it brought back to life anyway !
 
BradA said:
No one wants to hunt California anyway so what’s it matter. I think everyone agrees that California should increase the nr opportunity for antelope and elk to up to 10 percent. This is a ten year old post, why was it brought back to life anyway !
Click to expand...
scroll back to post #42.
 
Crampy said:
CA gave out 1-2 NR ram tags. AZ gave out over 20.


CA gave out 1 NR elk tag. CO alone gave out thousands.

WY gave out 1 NR pronghorn buck tag. WY gives out thousands.

Whether calculated in raw numbers or percentages, CA is among the most selfish of our 50 states for any high value tags.

Sure, lockdown CA deer NR allocation to match. And then scratch your head about why other western states are less inviting to Californians.
Click to expand...

AZ gave out 7 / 156 desert ram tags to NR 4.4%
CA Can give out 2 / 19 Tags to NR 10%

Elk are never going to be fair due to lack of overall availability. There are 188 bull / either sex tags in the state so 1 / 188 is a rough go. They could go to up to 10% and It wouldn't change much only because the way the system is set up.

Max point non res 120
Max Point Total 2003

There are roughly 45-50 random tags in California.

No offense but using Colorado for elk numbers and WY for Antelope is like Joe Biden saying the economy is better. You know why there are more tags? There are more animals.

California could absolutely do better and this system might be why people aren't applying. I find it odd that only 1187 are applying for ram tags when its up to 10%. Its a preference point system so you get rewarded for applying.
 
Last edited:
I have to correct myself.

Somehow my spreadsheet didn't filter correctly and it didn't pick up the random AZ ram draw. Which they did fill up to the 5% additional that they could draw some

15 / 156 tags so 9.6% AZ
2/ 19 Ttags 10.5 % CA
 
CA gave out zero ram tags to NR in 2023, correct? Because they issue “up to 10%” to NR rather than a 10% NR guarantee like other generous states will give.

AZ actually gave 15 ram tags to NRs.
CA “can” give 2 ram tags to NRs, but selfishly kept all tags for residents instead.

Wyoming and Colorado looked at what CA (and others) were doing in areas like this - and that is why they tightened up their processes.

But sure, CA needs 10% NR cap on deer because NRs are traveling to CA and shooting too many deer.
 
Crampy said:
CA gave out zero ram tags to NR in 2023, correct? Because they issue “up to 10%” to NR rather than a 10% NR guarantee like other generous states will give.

AZ actually gave 15 ram tags to NRs.
CA “can” give 2 ram tags to NRs, but selfishly kept all tags for residents instead.

Wyoming and Colorado looked at what CA (and others) were doing in areas like this - and that is why they tightened up their processes.

But sure, CA needs 10% NR cap on deer because NRs are traveling to CA and shooting too many deer.
Click to expand...

It’s a preference point system did a non res have enough points to draw the tag guaranteed. That's the only thing that matters. If 2 non res have the highest points they can draw. Or they can get lucky on the random tags. There are only 19 Tags I'm not sure what your asking for on ram. Selfish? No the non residents didn't have enough points plain and simple.

Non Res Max Point Sheep 156
Total Max Point Applying 1282
Total Max point only applying for PP 223

Total Non Res Applying for Ram 1187
Total people applying for Rams in Ca 11599
Total People only applying for PP not in the draw 7159


AZ does not guarantee tags in their draw either . It can draw up to 10% of which it’s split between bonus ( 5% rounded down ) and 1-2. ( 5% Rounded Up )

It only looks guaranteed because you have 22,400 non residents vying for 8 tags. there are 34,925 residents applying for tags so the odds are the NR will draw out in the random pass

On Sheep 7 tags were drawn in the bonus pass to NR that had the MOST points that applied for that unit and 8 in the 1-2 pass. On the 1-2 pass a couple drew with 0-3 points .

Green is bonus pass
Blue is random pass

Tell me again how the "selfish" California system hosed the Non Res people that applied for rams? Its the same Up to system that AZ uses.
 

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Last edited:
Crampy said:
CA gave out zero ram tags to NR in 2023, correct? Because they issue “up to 10%” to NR rather than a 10% NR guarantee like other generous states will give.

AZ actually gave 15 ram tags to NRs.
CA “can” give 2 ram tags to NRs, but selfishly kept all tags for residents instead.

Wyoming and Colorado looked at what CA (and others) were doing in areas like this - and that is why they tightened up their processes.

But sure, CA needs 10% NR cap on deer because NRs are traveling to CA and shooting too many deer.
Click to expand...
Not correct I hunted with one just a couple days ago from Idaho.
 
Skykarp said:
It’s a preference point system did a non res have enough points to draw the tag guaranteed. That's the only thing that matters. If 2 non res have the highest points they can draw. Or they can get lucky on the random tags. There are only 19 Tags I'm not sure what your asking for on ram. Selfish? No the non residents didn't have enough points plain and simple.

Non Res Max Point Sheep 156
Total Max Point Applying 1282
Total Max point only applying for PP 223

Total Non Res Applying for Ram 1187
Total people applying for Rams in Ca 11599
Total People only applying for PP not in the draw 7159


AZ does not guarantee tags in their draw either . It can draw up to 10% of which it’s split between bonus ( 5% rounded down ) and 1-2. ( 5% Rounded Up )

It only looks guaranteed because you have 22,400 non residents vying for 8 tags. there are 34,925 residents applying for tags so the odds are the NR will draw out in the random pass

On Sheep 7 tags were drawn in the bonus pass to NR that had the MOST points that applied for that unit and 8 in the 1-2 pass. On the 1-2 pass a couple drew with 0-3 points .

Green is bonus pass
Blue is random pass

Tell me again how the "selfish" California system hosed the Non Res people that applied for rams? Its the same Up to system that AZ uses.
Click to expand...
Glad to see someone else understands
 
Apologies it was 2022 ram data I was looking at -

2022: ZERO NR ram tags issued.
2022; 1 NR elk tag (cow, Independence)
2022: 1 NR buck pronghorn (zone 4).

Yes, I see this as selfish behavior by California. Californian hunters flock to other states to claim a true 10% (or greater) NR set-aside.

But then their own state selfishly keeps 99%+ for residents with a misleading "up to 10%" process that which is actually well under 1% at day's end.

But yes, Californians argue for an NR cap on deer, bear & turkey to keep NRs out. Eat Colorado's cake, and keep yours too.

The reason the CA point system is so lacking in NRs is because this selfishness is widely understood. So, NRs never participated/aged with the system.
 
I shouldn't be referring to other states as having a true 10% NR set-aside. It functions that way because NR apps are so high. But is not technically a set-aside.

If not for the selfishness of things like 1 elk tag & 1 pronghorn tag, more NRs would bave participated in the CA system from day one. So now, the NR apps are lower than they would otherwise have been. And that allows residents to argue now, "well you guys had a chance and chose not to participate".
 
Elk and Antelope should absolutely be the same I don't think anyone is actually arguing against it. If they are its due to pure emotion and not objectively looking at it .

Do it as a 5/5 the same as AZ.

Outside of one person on this thread from 11 years ago find me someone jumping up and down for NR caps on deer. I guarantee you that 99% of people have no idea how many NR are actually applying for CA . Come and hunt 2 deer a year.

59,719 total people apply for CA deer with 1471 of them being non residents. It doesn't look like people are flocking to CA to hunt. Every other state is roughly 50/50

Ram draw worked as it was supposed to

"If not for the selfishness of things like 1 elk tag & 1 pronghorn tag, more NRs would have participated in the CA system from day one. So now, the NR apps are lower than they would otherwise have been"

Would it be more? Maybe . Deer has no cap yet its 50% less people applying for Elk . I think the bigger issue is Nr looking at the chance at drawing 55 tags. Most resident will never be able to draw a tag either due to lack of animals.

Deer No Cap
Turkey No Cap
Bear No Cap
Pigs No Cap


Here is the Fish and Wildlife email list I think it would be great to see NR start asking questions on why CA is selfish on two premium species.
CA Fish and Wildlife email list


After that will you join me in co writing a letter to Utah on how selfish it is to not let NR apply for AI or CWMUs?
Do you want to write a letter to selfish NM for having to have 13 tags before a NR can get 1?
Should we write to Utah because 27 of the 58 LE muzzy hunts NR didn't draw a tag on?
Should we add Wyoming to the list? I feel wronged because I wasn't born soon enough and will never draw a moose tag. They only issued 25/55 available non res tags.
 
Crampy said:
Apologies it was 2022 ram data I was looking at -

2022: ZERO NR ram tags issued.
2022; 1 NR elk tag (cow, Independence)
2022: 1 NR buck pronghorn (zone 4).

Yes, I see this as selfish behavior by California. Californian hunters flock to other states to claim a true 10% (or greater) NR set-aside.

But then their own state selfishly keeps 99%+ for residents with a misleading "up to 10%" process that which is actually well under 1% at day's end.

But yes, Californians argue for an NR cap on deer, bear & turkey to keep NRs out. Eat Colorado's cake, and keep yours too.

The reason the CA point system is so lacking in NRs is because this selfishness is widely understood. So, NRs never participated/aged with the system.
Click to expand...
I actually believe if I remember right an individual drawing from Alaska in 2022 a white mtn sheep tag, and I know for sure a lady from Idaho drew last year in 2022 I spoke to her husband and he is a member of this forum and she killed a great ram. I can think of at least one nr drawing a sheep tag the past three four years.
 
BradA said:
I actually believe if I remember right an individual drawing from Alaska in 2022 a white mtn sheep tag, and I know for sure a lady from Idaho drew last year in 2022 I spoke to her husband and he is a member of this forum and she killed a great ram. I can think of at least one nr drawing a sheep tag the past three four years.
Click to expand...
Let's make it one more next year, and while we're at it let's make another one from Idaho! Thanks again Brad!!
 
BradA said:
I actually believe if I remember right an individual drawing from Alaska in 2022 a white mtn sheep tag, and I know for sure a lady from Idaho drew last year in 2022 I spoke to her husband and he is a member of this forum and she killed a great ram. I can think of at least one nr drawing a sheep tag the past three four years.
Click to expand...

TopRut shows Zero (0) NR ram tags issued in 2022.

Maybe that Alaska hunter was claiming CA residency?

1702057170762.png
 
Crampy said:
TopRut shows Zero (0) NR ram tags issued in 2022.

Maybe that Alaska hunter was claiming CA residency?

View attachment 128821
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t trust top rut, and if he was that would be illegal. Top rut is also posting no one drew a tag as a nr in any of the units but I’m certain like I said that one was drawn if not two.
 
There is no set aside nonresident quota for sheep. Everyone is in the same pot. If a nonresident happens to draw before the cap is hit, the tag is issued. It is entirely possible that nonresidents don't draw.
 
As far as the point system goes, they will change it if enough have nots complain. The haves won't like it. I think the likely change will be to something like NV has. It seems like bonus points squared is the most favored draw system.
 
Is it possible the NR that drew left cali with a lifetime license and points?......which would mean they didn't draw the random?
 
ElmerFudd said:
As far as the point system goes, they will change it if enough have nots complain. The haves won't like it. I think the likely change will be to something like NV has. It seems like bonus points squared is the most favored draw system.
Click to expand...
yes.....I like that idea......just change the system with points as they are.
 
Homer said:
Is it possible the NR that drew left cali with a lifetime license and points?......which would mean they didn't draw the random?
Click to expand...
Outside of falsifying it CA does not have a code similar to AZ to let someone duck into the res pool.
 
Homer said:
They certainly do.....Life time license holders that leave the state are in the resident draw but pay NR fees if drawn
Click to expand...

This is the response from CA fish and game that I received. I’m in the process of becoming a NR so trying to dot all Is and crossing Ts.


“Unfortunately, to be eligible as a resident you have to meet the requirements established in the Fish and Game Code (FGC), Section 70 which state that a “resident” means any person who has resided continuously in the State of California for six months or more immediately prior to the date of his application for a license or permit, any person on active military duty with the Armed Forces of the United States or auxiliary branch thereof, or any person enrolled in the Job Corps established pursuant to Section 2883 of Title 29 of the United States Code.”
 
Specifically ask about what draw you are in.......I have friends in Ely that left cali 15 years ago with life time licenses that have drawn Pronghorn and Deer in the resident draw but paid NR fees.....Lassen and G3
 
Homer said:
Specifically ask about what draw you are in.......I have friends in Ely that left cali 15 years ago with life time licenses that have drawn Pronghorn and Deer in the resident draw but paid NR fees.....Lassen and G3
Click to expand...
“Thank You Anthony

If I move out of state after purchasing the lifetime license do I get to apply as a resident or am I a non resident for the point pool? The reason I ask is NR are limited to 1 elk tag per year.”

Should have included the question in the first post. Should probably call and double check. Will also look to see how you apply and the boxes you can check in June.

Deer wouldn’t matter due to lack of point pool. Antelope is a diff story.
 
Last edited:
Homer said:
They certainly do.....Life time license holders that leave the state are in the resident draw but pay NR fees if drawn
Click to expand...
A common misconception…

Lifetime Licenses Are Available Only to California Residents
You must be a California resident to purchase a lifetime license. If you move out of California, your lifetime license and the privileges you have purchased will still be valid. You are still eligible to purchase lifetime additional privilege packages. If you reside in another state, you are a nonresident, unless you are enrolled in the Job Corps, or on active duty with the U.S. Armed Forces. If you wish to apply for big game drawings or need additional hunting tags which are not included with your lifetime privilege packages, you must apply as a nonresident and pay nonresident fees.

Horniac
 
Homer said:
Specifically ask about what draw you are in.......I have friends in Ely that left cali 15 years ago with life time licenses that have drawn Pronghorn and Deer in the resident draw but paid NR fees.....Lassen and G3
Click to expand...
If they paid NR fees for a deer tag then they might of just had the lifetime license without the additional big game package. The adder for the big game package gives them the 1st deer tag and 5 pig tags for the rest of their life at no cost so they would have got the deer tags for free If they had the big game package and drew G3. There is no NR quota for deer so all applicants (NR/R) are in the same draw...

Horniac
 
If you have your lifetime license and move out of state you are part of the nr pool allocation, so if draw and have moved out of state and draw an elk or antelope tag the nr quota if filled if you move out of state and have your lifetime license and draw a sheep tag you just took a percent of the ten percent available to nr and deer is a mute point. Hopefully that makes sense. California is not like Arizona.
 
ElmerFudd said:
As far as the point system goes, they will change it if enough have nots complain. The haves won't like it. I think the likely change will be to something like NV has. It seems like bonus points squared is the most favored draw system.
Click to expand...
They can stop issuing points, but let current point holder keep their points and still give a 75-25 distribution. Eventually everyone will be on a more level draw. Maybe something like this could work?
 
chrisamx said:
They can stop issuing points, but let current point holder keep their points and still give a 75-25 distribution. Eventually everyone will be on a more level draw. Maybe something like this could work?
Click to expand...
If there were enough tags it would work. On Elk it would never work due to the lack of tags but it may be a good start to give anyone 2 years after the system started a chance.

Looking specifically at bull tags only in 2022

2008 max point holders
115 Preference Point Tag Quota


So if a guy is holding out for a bull tag only hes got at max a 17.46 year wait if hes at max. Right behind that group is 1297 people.

the good news is the herd has grown and so have tag numbers. The other good thing is the PLM tags are capped unless they legislate more tags.

2023 saw 142 PP tags with the addition of some new zones.


Figure 1893 max point holders left after 2022 and 1751 after 2023s draw. This doesn't take into account max point holders now applying for spike and cow hunts which 13 people did in 2022.

if 13 max point holders apply for cow both those years it brings this years total pool to roughly 1726 so to get through this pool your now at 12.15 years if tags stay the same.

Based on 2022
19 1297
18 1023
17 958
16 937

Total 4215 point holders in the next 4 pools combined is another 27 years combined to get through those pools on tip of the 12 years.

Best bet is they find a way to stop adding tags to the SHARE program and get them in the draw pool honestly.
 

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