A great book. . .

T

TFinalshot

Guest
A great book. . .

If you read nothing else about politics in your life, read this book. It's free on the www and worth the read no matter what your political beliefs. . . if you support a democratic system of government this book will inspire you to elect real, true leaders. . .

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

it's pdf file and can be printed. It's about 1.5 MB so if youre on a dial up let it down load then kick back and take a read, it's very interesting. . .



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
RE: A great book. . .

No thanks...I get enough politics with all of the "copy and pasting" That goes on around here...


horsepoop.gif
 
RE: A great book. . .

T I am certain if you like the book it must be a bash the conservative, bash the capitolist, bash the establishment, bash christianity book. So no thanks.



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
RE: A great book. . .

Actually it is about the fundamental structure and process of our government and how the authoritarian's have taken over the republican party. . .

before you scoff at it, you should read it, it is very telling.

for 202 it would be like reading his own pscyological biography, and it might be called, "the spirit of my inner child, why men become followers."
 
RE: A great book. . .

This is a 'scientific' study performed by an American who moved to Canada, and who has great disdan for conservatives. How can he or any of his supporters say these results are un-biased? Nonsensical. I read through it, and feel like I wasted 20 minutes of my life. Thanks a lot TF. Funny who someone on the LEFT can do a study that 'proves' the right wrong. SHocking I say.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]did you give up on thinking before or after you started reading . . .
 
RE: A great book. . .

"........elect real true leaders"....well, that possibility went south in about 1865.

Been damn few Patriots around politics for several decades.

Not much out there now but liars, thieves and whores.......and all the whores ain't women!
 
RE: A great book. . .

T you always crack me up and at the same time I can read you like a book. Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh :)
Cary on!


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
RE: A great book. . .

Wow that's going to take some time to read but it looks interesting.

Our far right population won't even check it out because since it isn't endorsed by the republican party it has to be bunk. I listen on occasion for as long as I can take it to fat butt drug addict Rush Limbaugh just to see what the FAR right is bouncing around in their head, nothing anyone could write could ever be more biased and often untrue than what tubby tosses out and is sucked up as gospel by pin heads. a few of the lefty talk people are just about as ignorant also. it never hurts to understand opposing points of veiw even if you still disagree after hearing it.
 
RE: A great book. . .

02, I would be much happier if you would read me like a cheep newstand rag than a book, I'm must too simple to be read like a book, in fact, i think gary trudeau cartoons would better represent me. . .



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
RE: A great book. . .

Well, this 'far right' guy read the link. Not impressed. Funny how you, dude, can call Rush names and mock his stances, but you will eat this garbage TF posted as gospel yourself. I try and 'understand' opposing points of view, but I can't for the life of my 'understand' yours. I think ot is mainly due to you not 'understanding' your own constantly changing views.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]T,
Interesting. He has some points but lost me when he gets to the "You can't be a Christian and still think for yourself" deal.

Nearly everything he says about Christians could be applied to any other group.

If fundementalist Christians are such a threat to our democracy then how come our country has not failed by now? There have been many many "revival" periods in our history and many "evangelical" leaning politicians who have been national leaders yet our country prospered?

His deal with Fundmentalist supporting institutions of higher learning except for research is kind of a weird analogy. Also the statement that Christians wish to keep their children ignorant is stupid.

While not being a fire breathing bible thumper I am always suspect when all the blame is placed upon Christianity. Whenever you single out one group as the cause of all the problems one tends to get over simplified. There are lots of followers of different causes out there who believe in what ever the cause is just as religiously as christians do.

While the book is an interesting study it is did little for me to see that all the problems in our country are right wing authoritarians. In addition everyone is predicting that the Republican party is dead and that the American people will elect someone that is the total opposite of GWB. Doesn't that say something about what the average person thinks about the current state of affairs?

He even says there have always been such people around and always will be, also didn't the recent midterm elections prove that the "average" American, who is in the majority, can see through the Authoritarian problem and bring change through the ballot box.

Do you know of any public school in Montana that is not teaching evolution? There are private and home schooled kids that are learning creationism but have you seen these kids enter the real world?

Also his study points out that a majority of kids who go on to further their education do not believe in what their parents tried to cramp down their throats. Doesn't that speak for itself? The acceptance of homosexuals, minorities, other ethnic groups has risen nearly every year in this country. Ask any group of kids in grade school their opinions on these matters. I see with my own kids and their attitudes.


Nemont
 
RE: A great book. . .

Adding to Nemonts comments, EVERY major player in the drafting of the Consitution were religious people whose primary inspiration came from the BIBLE. They used it as a blueprint, mainly the 'books of Moses'. No wonder TF and dude like this nonsense, it is anti-religion just like them. This country was founded/built by religious radicals. Now who has 'stopped thinking'?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: A great book. . .

But you see T, I did not have to read the piece to know what it was about. Pro and NeMont read it and everything I said is exactly right.
It is kinda like me telling you I read this great book called "The Bible" You would definetly come back at me with " Well 202 I am sure it is full of righteous talk about right and wrong, morals, and love for mankind which is just a bunch of crap cause as everyone knows there is no right and wrong just shades of gray, morals are up to the individual and the best way to love mankind is to provide him with a nanny state" Yep I can read ya T.......


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
RE: A great book. . .

Pro I don't beleive a good share of what either side tells me. to people like you it's black or it's white, it's good or it's evil. I can agree with the dems on one issue and the republicans on the next but you can't conceive of a middle ground. the reason you think my position is always changing is I'm not tied to either party and I'm not guided by a person, book, religion or anything other than the law and my conscience. I don't any trouble with either one.
 
RE: A great book. . .

I don't believe the book was anti religion per se. It was more anti fundmentalist christian. The author took great pains to say that he was not a member of any political party but was more liberal then some people and less liberal then others. He also says that if the democrats would be showing the same signs he would be picking on them.

My issue is that if fundementalist Christians beliefs are anathema to our country how do you explain our two hundred thirty two years of survival as a nation. There have always been fundmentalist christians and many have been in positions of power.

I guess I put more faith in our system then what other do. I believe the current upcoming presidential election will be a repudiation of the policies of the Bush Administration which indicates to me that the electorate has gotten it and will move to "fix" it.

I would be curious to have the same scientific studies done on those on the ultra liberal members of our society. Perhaps we should be pointing out their militant attitudes and what they instill in their children. Either extreme is generally bad for our country.

Nemont
 
RE: A great book. . .

T, thanks for posting this book. I've only read about 10% of it, but do find it interesting and will try to finish it soon. While I consider myself to be squarely conservative, I took that test and scored somewhere near the median, which surprised me, I guess. Perhaps I'm a contradiction, because I disagree with much of what I have read, but scored very close to the middle.

I think it is interesting to see how everyone responds to this thread. 'dude, I'm not at all surprised at your comments, but never cease to be disappointed in you. I'm sure that if you took that twenty question test, and were honest about the answers, your score would be at an extreme end. You're so wrapped up in your ideology, that you come across as incapable of cogent thought and opinion. While I disagree with most of the views of TFinal, at least I regard him as someone who puts some sensible, considered thought into his opinions.

I'm glad we live in a country where people can disagree and see things differently. None of us are right all the time, or wrong all the time. 'dude, you criticise Rush Limbaugh, but in doing so you come across as a mind numbed robot youself, and someone who certainly has extreme biases, in short, you come across as a bigot. Can't you at least resort to thinking a bit before you write? I think Tfinal seems to do a reasonably good job of that, even though I don't agree with his views.

I look forward to reading the rest of this book, but from what I've read, I doubt I'll agree with most of his hypotheses. Think about this if you read the entire book, he focuses on what he calls "Right Wing Authortarians", but his comments could just as easily be applied to Left Wing Authoritarians, and we've got plenty of those in our society as well....along with many who follow them.
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 11:03AM (MST)[p]my point is I don't believe every evil in our society is linked to fundementalist christians.
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]202typical - you make the authors case to the "T," (one of symptoms of an authoratarian is a person that blindly follows others) and replies like yours are the reason people thought it would be a good idea to study people like you . . .
 
RE: A great book. . .

Great reply I agree with you, in fact, it sounds like you missed the point in the book where the author even agrees with what you said,

"Think about this if you read the entire book, he focuses on what he calls "Right Wing Authortarians", but his comments could just as easily be applied to Left Wing Authoritarians, and we've got plenty of those in our society as well....along with many who follow them."


In fact, he deals with right up front and states that the authoratarians are on both sides of the isle. . . so you and he agree on more that you think. . .
 
RE: A great book. . .

Here's O2 and others like him, from page 52 - keep in mind this is based on about 60 years of research and 100's of studies, it's not philosphy, it is based completely in scientific fact. The author address the numbers in his peer reviewed papers. . . remember, this book was written for people like me who dont read a lot of statistics. . .

Anyhow, this is like the jeopardy game, just answer at the end of the paragraph, "who is 202?"

"Anyone who follows orders can become a murderer for an authoritarian regime. But authoritarian followers find it easier to bully, harass, punish, maim, torture, ?eliminate,? ?liquidate,? and ?exterminate? their victims than most people do. We saw in chapter 1 that high RWAs (right wing authoratarinists) are more likely to inflict strong electric shocks in a fake learning experiment in which they choose the punishment level, are more likely to sentence common criminals to long jail sentences, are more likely to be prejudiced, are more willing to join ?posses? organized by authorities to hunt down and persecute almost any group you can think of, are more mean-spirited, and are more likely to blame victims of misfortune for the calamities that befall them. So while on the surface high RWAs can be pleasant, sociable, and friendly, they seemingly have a lot of hostility boiling away inside them that their authorities can easily unleash. Indeed, this authoritarian aggression is one of the three defining elements of right-wing authoritarianism."
 
RE: A great book. . .

CAnuts I didn't say I was Mr Rogers, I said I tried to keep an open mind but I can take a dislike for somebody within those bounds. Rush Limbaugh is no easier to relate to than Osama Bin Laden, they're both fanatics and deserve no respect or consideration. what about Lewis Farrakhan ? he's on the same level as Rush just the other end of the spectrum, I don't like him either do you?

If I hurt you feelings with my wise crack anout you favorite first lady and now insulted your favorite radio host let it go, write me off as a whacko like I have 202 . then get over it and have fun you're not getting paid on performance here.
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]How about this, does this sound like any of the "believers" on this board?



". . . many high RWAs believe the world will end soon. As the year 2000 drew near, I found many authoritarian followers agreed with the statement, ?The ?end times? predicted in the Bible are going to begin at the start of 2000,? and ?Floods, famines, wars and other disasters are occurring so often now, the world is going to end in 2000.? As you know, it did not end. But I suspect this failed prediction has not changed authoritarians? beliefs one bit, and this year?s floods, famines, and other disasters will clearly signal (to them) the end of this dangerous, wicked world. As the leader of a disappointed doomsday group says in the closing lines of the British review Beyond the Fringe, ?Never mind lads. Same time tomorrow. We must get a winner someday.?"
 
RE: A great book. . .

I would rather be labeled a "RWA" than a "SP".

dude, to put Rush in the same category as Osama is BEYOND ABSURD. That is a stretch, even by your standards. I would say folks on 'your' side, the SP's, are more closely aligned with Osama and wanting to 'foce' others into their way of thinking. Look how the SP's react to anyone who dares disagree with global warming and the causes/effects of it. The left is much mor elikely to take away freedoms than the right. Just becuase you claim to have an 'open mind' and value 'free speech' does NOT make it so. Actions from the left prove otherwise.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: A great book. . .

Again T you crack me up. Thanks



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
RE: A great book. . .

"Our far right population won't even check it out because since it isn't endorsed by the republican party"

No, I wasn't going to read because of this:

1- T-Final is recommending a book on politics.
2- He has made over 3500 posts and they have all been the same.
3- He cuts and pastes all of his "research"
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-08 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]1. It really is a social science book.

2. I love a popoff that does not really know what he's talking about when it comes to my posts, just goes further to support the premises pointed out in the book I recommended.

3. What do you want me to do re type it?

How about talking about the subject of the book, it's got some truth to it and we should at least be willing to recognize some of it for what it is worth.

Your reply is exactly what is discussed in the book, you fit the profile perfectly, now go take the test. . .
 
RE: A great book. . .

"I love a popoff that does not really know what he's talking about when it comes to my posts"

I am glad you do, thanks.

Who are you voting for T?
 
RE: A great book. . .

As many of you out there like me read this and choose not to join in think about several things.

1.The posters who use logic and intelligent discussion versus those who either use personal attack or a quip to make another poster seem trivial or far out in their thinking.

2. The close mindness of some people where they live in a world where everything is exactly black and white.

3. The continuing rhetoric, its liberal thinking, its biased, unreliable source, Canadian etc.

I've started the book it is a good read, probably for some impossible to open your mind up to, I'll finish it but with time restraints it will take a couple of days.

One question why is the first thing you post when someone recomends a book is an attack? I could explain the psychology of your attack but it would just be a waste of my time.

Thanks T for the good post.
 
RE: A great book. . .

Here's a question for my Liberal friends- Is there right or wrong? What I mean is, if I take a stand on principle against something someone else does or says, why is that wrong? If MY morals, standards, ethics, experiences, ect.. have convinced me then why should I change my mind because its politically correct? Just because some so called expert tells us something does not mean another expert can be 180 degrees different, i.e. global warming, gay rights, religon ect. It just seems to me that some liberals think we should always be more tolerant and understanding but the same does not apply to them. And even though each of us has different ideals, principle MUST have some merit. And as always, I continue to be amazed how far left liberals can continue to post their version of truth on a HUNTING WEBSITE. To me, there isnt room in the canoe for anti-gun, anti-private sector, anti-freedom folks and the hunters and fishermen that I know. But if you pick and choose what liberal cause you want to promote and ignore the basic party line of your movement, it must be cool?
 
RE: A great book. . .

I always respect a guy who has different beliefs or ideas than I do if he can express them in an intelligent way and I try to listen and undestand them. What I just don't get, the personal attacks where so many posters become 6'10' and tough. Ransom and I don't agree on most things but I wouldn't attack him and I sure as heck respect his views because he debates them in a decent way. I really don't know if I'm a liberal the tests you take on line say I'm a moderate. I'm not sure you can put a tag on most people and say this is where they belong. I read stuff that would be considered neo-con reading I also read liberal info I think you have to read both and decide issues on individual basis. This I am a conservative or liberal and this is how I have to think on this issue is counterproductive and not very intelligent. I also watched the Republican debate and just finished watching the democratic debate.
 
RE: A great book. . .

How many true blue liberals hunt and own guns? there aren't any hippie flag burning geeks around here give me a break. why doesn't somebody just pick the issue they most disagree with and see if for once there can a focused discussion.
 
RE: A great book. . .

...OK, I finished it.

By no standard is this a "good book", or even a good read. It is simply just someone elses' point of view.

I don't see why someone would get all butt hurt because someone else dosen't like it.
 
RE: A great book. . .

I thought it was very interesting and worth every second I put into it. . .

I would not get any hurt out of someone not liking it, it takes a pretty healthy man to read it all and if you cat get thought it because your mind wont let you, that's okay, it is what it is. . .
 
RE: A great book. . .

T,
Do you believe his conclusions?

Interesting that he says the RWA's want to repeal the bill of rights. I don't recall that but maybe he is talking that they will ignore the bill of rights? I didn't really get his point on that.

Nemont
 
RE: A great book. . .

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-08 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]If by conclusion you mean the following paragraphs from the book, then yes, by all means I agree with him.


Quote:


The Short Run Imperative: Speak Out Now or Forever, Perhaps, Be Silenced If they work, most of these suggestions will only produce changes in high RWAs in the long run. But we may not have a long run. We have to contain authoritarianism now lest it destroy us. We?ve got to act now. I say this with some hesitation. I've been studying authoritarianism since 1966, and I've been publishing my findings since 1981, but you never heard of the results presented in this book before, right? Partly that's because I've always gotten an ?F? in self-promotion.15 And I've always worried that publicity would invalidate my future studies. But I've mainly laid low, sticking to academic outlets, 16 because what I've found is alarming, and I know that raising this alarm can horrendously backfire. We do have to fear fear itself. Thus I took pains in my previous writings to present my findings in a concerned voice, but I tried hard not to sound like Paul Revere. Here?s how I put it in 1996 at the end of what I intended to be my last book on the subject:

?I am now writing the last page in my last book about authoritarianism. So, for the last time, I do not think a fascist dictatorship lies just over our horizon. But I do not think we are well protected against one. And I think our recent history shows the threat is growing...We cannot secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves, and our posterity, if we sit with our oars out of the water. If we drift mindlessly, circumstances can sweep us to disaster. Our societies presently produce millions of highly authoritarian personalities as a matter of course, enough to stage the Nuremberg Rallies over and over and over again. Turning a blind eye to this could someday point 246 guns at all our heads, and the fingers on the triggers will belong to right-wing authoritarians. We ignore this at our peril.?17

Eleven years later, as I am now definitely writing the last pages in my last book on the subject, I believe circumstances such as ?9/11" have nearly swept us to disaster, the authoritarian threat has grown unabated, and almost all the protections I saw in 1996, such as a ?free and vigilant press,? are being eroded or have already been destroyed. The biggest problem we have now, in my view, is authoritarianism. It has placed America at one of those historic cross-roads that will profoundly affect the rest of its history, and the future of our planet. The world deserves a much better America than the one it has seen lately. And so do Americans.

So what's to be done right now? The social dominators and high RWAs presently marshaling their forces for the next election in your county, state and country, are perfectly entitled to do what they're doing. They have the right to organize, they have the right to proselytize, they have the right to select and work for candidates they like, they have the right to vote, they have the right to make sure folks who agree with them also vote. Jerry Falwell has already declared, ?We absolutely are going to deliver this nation back to God in 2008!? 18, 19

If the people who are not social dominators and right-wing authoritarians want to have those same rights in the future, they, you, had better do those same things too, now. You do have the right to remain silent, but you'll do so at everyone?s peril. You can't sit these elections out and say ?Politics is dirty; I'll not be part of it,? or ?Nothing can change the way things are done now.?The social dominators want you to be disgusted with politics, they want you to feel hopeless, they want you out of their way. They want democracy to fail, they want your freedoms stricken, they want equality destroyed as a value, they want to control everything and everybody, they want it all. And they have an army of authoritarian followers marching with the militancy of ?that old-time religion? on a crusade that will make it happen, if you let them.

Research shows most people are not in this army. However Americans have, for the most part, been standing on the sidewalk quietly staring at this authoritarian parade as it marches on. You can watch it tear American democracy apart, bit by bit, bite by bite. Or you can exercise your rights too, while you still have them, and get just as concerned, active, and giving to protect yourself and your country. If you, and other liberals, other moderates, other conservatives with conscience do, then everything can turn out all right. But we have to get going. If you are the only person you know who grasps what's happening, then you've got to take leadership, help inform, and organize others. One person can do so much; you've no idea! And two can do so much more.

But time is running out, fast, and nearly everything is at stake.




"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
RE: A great book. . .

Thanks T, I found that to be a fascinating read.

It is almost as fascinating as the relationship between 202typical and BigBuckChaser.

You don't really post much do you Bigbuckchaser? It appears that you only seem to post after 202 gets pimped slap.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID11/6631.html
(note post count)

The psychological relationship between the nicks is quite fascinating as well 202typical, Bigbuckchaser, hmmmm. Amazing how the 2 of you seem to compliment each other so thoroughly.

It is also fascinating how the writing styles almost seem identical with run-on sentences, multiple objects of the preposition, and as always an extreme partisan bias.

I think we can all agree that anyone stooping to such desperate measures would be beyond pathetic, beyond insecure, and in need of professional help.

It's probably just a fascinating coincidence. :)
 
RE: A great book. . .

I read that summation and came away asking how does one unite moderates, liberals and conservatives with a conscience? I am all ears and would be interested in such a mix views working together. I am not certain that there is enough middle ground out there to have those differing view points come together.

We certainly cannot continue on the spending and tax cutting path we are on.

Nemont
 
RE: A great book. . .

Darn it FTW I really feel like an idiot after I read the linked post I even caught it. Guess I never did put 2 and 2 and get 4 on that one I've got to start paying more attention. Very interesting coincidence.

Great question NeMont I was thinking on that myself even FDR had both progressive and conservatives after him and his programs. I Think you don't get them to agree but you get both sides to respect the leader of this nation. Maybe that also is impossible today I'm not sure. The one thing I know is Bush has very little respect except for a few people that will support him forever. Your last statement is among the truest words on this site.
"We certainly cannot continue on the spending and tax cutting path we are on. "

Nemont
 
RE: A great book. . .

I think FTW is right, 202 discovered a way to make his imaginary friend seem real and found the one person in the world who agrees with him at the same time.
 
RE: A great book. . .

dude and husker can kiss my ass! I have my own opinion and 202 can have his. Just because ya'll want to shove left-wing nutjob propaganda down our throats and are closed minded, doesn't mean we have to agree with your irrational, brainless ramblings. So much for voiceing our disagreements in thought. If you go against dude and his band of merrymen you get assasinated by a keyboard. But then who really cares? If a liberal doesn't like you, that is the best compliment possible! I thought you idiots are champions for free speech? Unless it disagrees with you huh? Kinda like the ACLU picks a fight for every amendment but #2! Anytime, anyplace dude and bring your lunch!
 
RE: A great book. . .

Hmmm a homo-erotic request for an opening statement and plenty of references to "our" and "we", that pretty fascinating too!

Yep Dude, you better bring your lunch...and something cold to drink..and some CD's..and maybe a jacket in case it gets cold.
 
RE: A great book. . .

I agree with NeMont, the "Christians can't think for themselves" is hilarious.

Most of our senators are Christian. Most of our presidents have been Christian. If you ever read anything you would know that our founding fathers were devoutly Christian and somehow they came up with the most indepndant self thinking government ever created on the planet.

It must trouble you T to know that christians came to America, created the Constitution, run your government, and are the majority of your neighbors.

We are just a bunch of sheep aren't we.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
RE: A great book. . .

who's squeltching your speech, in fact this thread was meant to encourage it, show us why you feeling like your free speech rights have been violated. . .
 

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