A challenge to the average Joe

Tristate

Tristate

Long Time Member
Messages
9,706
Well folks here we are. Spring is upon us and just like every year the SFW haters have emerged from hibernation to grumble about how evil and corrupt they are.

So now I have a challenge for the SFW hate squad. YOU ALL HAVE AN ENTIRE YEAR TO PLAN AND EXECUTE THE GREATEST PROTEST IN HUNTING HISTORY!

I want to see if y'all can organize a pool of concerned hunters who will put THEIR money where THEIR mouths are. Step one is to collect as much money as y'all can, both from your own group and any donations from anyone concerned all over the USA. Then I want to see the group purchase a tag at next year's expo auction. Pick any tag y'all want and be the winning bidders. Then I want y'all to decided who is the most deserving "sportsman" y'all can find and give the tag to him or her. Here's an entire year to organize. Get the press involved. Get your message out. Stay on target. The average Joe will support you.
 
You are whack.

Do you not comprehend English??

Why in the hell would anyone give $FW a
Cent or support any further privatization of wildlife
Or wild places??



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Wiley,

Don't make excuses. Show the state of Utah that y'all can keep hunting alive for the average sportsman.

You start small and the next year you get bigger. And then you buy more tags and give them away to deserving sportsmen. Then it snowballs. Before you know it your powerful co-op is the major fiscal contributor and the state will have to take heed your plight. And if the politicians are corrupt like you say they will be corrupt for your cause. Trust me corruption shows no loyalty.

Get organized Wiley. Show thes people the money of hundreds of thousands is mor powerful than the money of a few.
 
And the money has done what exactly??


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Who cares. You get your stolen deer tags. You get to decide the future of the last deer. Once the average joe gets the power back you get to decide what good the money will do.

Quit making excuses and get organized. Quit being bitter about the past and take control of the future.
 
WW---I think Tri needs to check the ventilation system in his shop as I think the glue fumes finally got him!!!
 
TOP, I used to think that about him, then I realized
He's just a damn idiot.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
So in Texas I guess this passes as reverse psychology? Your genius plan to shut us up is to buy a tag from $FW? How exactly does that stick it to $FW? $FW cares only about the money they generate from tags, so we should give them money to make them pay attention?

Good job genius, now go protest hookers by buying one!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Anybody know what My Odds are of being 'The Most Deserving Sportsman"? :D:D:D



We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
 
Bingo elk.

As for the rest of you set down your hate blinders and show people what the average Joe sportsman can do. Show them YOUR power that you claim to weald.

People don't respond to a bunch of butt hurt internet titty-babies. They respond to action. They follow leaders who can organize a movement. Not a bunch of grown men who constantly cry every spring when they turn in their entry for their gubmint handouts and realize the brutality that they are trained monkeys standing in line for something they will probably never receive.

THE CONSTATNT INTERNET WHINING WHILE WORRYING ABOUT YOUR PLACE IN THE "LINE" JUST MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE YOUR TAGS AWAY SO MORE OF YOU WILL GIVE UP AND THEY CAN HERE LESS WHINING NEXT YEAR.


For Pete's sake be men.
 
Whiley,

You know what I laugh about? The fact that you call me an idiot in one post yet immortalize my words for all to read with every single post you make. Name one other member on these forums that has gotten that privilege.
 
My signature?????

BOY, when idiocy at that level comes along
It needs to be immortalized.

CAT you win, maybe Benson can hook you
Up with a chunk of the 2 mill.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
You know better than that wiley!




We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
 
Alright whiley,

What are you doing to fight for your cause. If you don't like my idea lets hear yours. And don't give me some lame excuse that you join RMEF. I want to see what you do. I want to see what provides your righteousness in these matters.
 
The average Joe is the reason you have any animals to hunt at all. How the hell did any of us survive before SFW and greedy people in the hunting industry? Throw in a few politicians and we have SFW/Rich Old Boys Inc.. Here is your challenge. Ask for a poll of all western hunters on if they want every state to end up like Texas or like Arizona, Montana, Idaho and on and on.
 
Polls change nothing. Polls don't get stuff done. Polls aren't what defeats your great satan, SFW. Action and leadership. AND NONE OF YOU HAVE IT. Its easier to cry on an internet forum each spring right around expo and application time.

I don't care anymore what you think. I care what you can do and right now a bunch of toothless dogs at a daycare could get more done than yall whiners.
 
You are right and polls don't matter. Remember when Peay tried to help old Taulman out here? Remember the feeling of tens of thousands of pissed off hunters putting it in you? That matters. Go away fool.
 
While you guys bicker and fight, I just want to point out that I'm the nicest most deserving of anyone you guys gave had the pleasure of knowing.
Pick me, pick me!
Zeke
 
But Zeke,

You are a member of SFW, so we cant pool our money and buy a tag for a SFW member, that would be a double wammy!!! :)

Just saying!
 
Robiland,
You can't go around telling these guys I'm a SFW member! I'll never get my "good-guy" "average joe" "poor guy" tag! LOL
Zeke
 
What do pissed off hunters put in me????


You are just getting really strange. Glen, you may want to get some help.

After that get off you goldbricken butt and do something instead of crying for polls.
 
Challenge for the average joe?

The "average joe" has done all the heavy lifting for wildlife, through decades upon decades of funding, volunteer hours, pushing legislation, and the list goes on and on.

The "average joe" has nothing to prove, they always have, always are, and always will be the first to step up for wildlife, public lands, habitat, and anything else it takes to perpetuate the longevity of same.

The idea of governors tags, commission tags, etc. are a recent idea...an idea that needs to be carefully considered, and in some cases reconsidered. There's a lot more to them, than just the funds raised and where those funds are used (and by whom).

As evidenced by Utah, its very easy for these tags to be over-utilized, at the expense of the hunting public.

I very cautiously support a handful of these tags to be one small piece of the funding puzzle. I only support them if there is exhaustive over-sight, regulation, and compliance in regard to who gets the funding and how its spent.

What's going on in Utah is a classic example of what not to do and what problems these tags create.

The average joe needs no challenge...only to keep doing what they always have.
 
I say we pool are $ together so one of the Steele boys cans hold trists hand to kill him another buck.
 
Buzz,

Quit making excuses and talking about the past. Come up with a new plan that makes everything better and get the ball moving. Your mule deer fell apart long before there was.

Devise a plan that shows money isn't needed for wildlife and you know who the righteous people are that "deserve" tags. I want to see it.

I am totally fine with you not liking my plan but quit your annual internet cry-athon and actually do something.


I notice we are over twenty posts and most of what we have is a bunch of name calling and talking about past glory.

Step up or shut up. Nobody who matters will care what you think when they can tell you are too lazy to do something for yourself.
 
Tri
You don't get on this site much, do you?
Your comments might apply to some but there's nothing in your post that applies to Buzz.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 11:39AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 11:34?AM (MST)

tristate,

I'm not making excuses for anything.

Average joe's fund $74,000,000 of the Wyoming Game and Fish annual budget.

Governors tags provide $600,000 to be used for projects approved by the moose, sheep, deer, elk, and all-wildlife committees, of which I am an active member of one committee.

The only money the WYGF department receives, funding wise, for the sale of the 25 Governors tags is the NR fees for 5 each of Sheep, Moose, Elk, Deer, and Bison tags.

For the record, those NR fees are collected via the GF through an appropriation to the general fund. In other words the tax payers of Wyoming are paying for the license fees of the Governors tag holders.

Looks like a pretty lop-sided level of financial support from the average joe's VS. those that buy Governors tags.

My challenge is for the Governor Tag holders to reach $74,000,000 in annual, financial support, going directly to the GF, they have a ways to go.
 
So Buzz what does any of what you just wrote have to do with conquering the evil SFW and the rest of us not having to hear your crying each spring?



I like how miraculously you look at a number(74million) on a paper and decide that "average joes" paid that. No evil rich people, just the people you decide? Do you really think statements like that give you any credibility? Somehow people who have money to buy an auction tag don't do any work, don't pay for any other wildlife items, and aren't "average Joes".
 
Zeke,

MY thread applies to ANYONE here that comes on here year after year crying about SFW and does NOTHING to change the situation they hate.
 
Tri-state,

Facts matter in any discussion about Governor tags. Facts about how much money the GF agencies receive, who pays for the license fees, who is receiving raised funds, and how decisions are made regarding who gets funding from those tags and how its utilized to help the publics wildlife. After all, that's the intent of Governors tags.

I'm not crying about the Governors tags, only about the number of them, and the lack of over-sight in how that money is spent in Utah.

Its odd that guys like you demand accountability for the GF agencies (which I also happen to agree with), but then give a total pass on where money goes that is raised via Gov. tags and public wildlife and given to SFW.

If we're going to allow Governors tags (a public resource), then asking for accountability in how those funds are utilized is not much of an ask. I would contend that it should be a required component.

Like I've always stated, I dont view the Governors tags as anything to do with "evil", or the people that buy them. If their numbers are limited, and funds are strictly accounted for they can be a great asset in helping with GF, wildlife, and habitat funding. Not a large part, but a part.

Try not to bust your leg next time jumping to conclusions about people you don't know...
 
"Facts matter in any discussion about Governor tags."

That's great. THIS ISN"T A DISCUSSION ABOUT GOVERNORS TAGS. This is a discussion to get people out of the cry me a river mode they have been stuck in for four years and get them to actually try and stop SFW and drive evil rich people from our hobby.

"I'm not crying about the Governors tags,"

Never said you did. You missed the point of the thread.

"Its odd that guys like you demand accountability for the GF agencies (which I also happen to agree with), but then give a total pass on where money goes that is raised via Gov. tags and public wildlife and given to SFW."

There isn't one single statement in that thread that I have said. Don't make up BS about me.


"Try not to bust your leg next time jumping to conclusions about people you don't know..."

I KNOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT. That makes me think you are too scared to deal with the issue.

On a side note it absolutely blows my mind the amount of money you spend worrying about less than one percent of the total big game harvest in your state. That defies any logic whatsoever and proves that you are more driven by emotion than math.
 
Tristate,

I've done more than my share to decrease SFW's influence in Wyoming...call Wharff and ask him.

Need his number?
 
BOY, your philosophy is flawed from the jump.
I asked in the beginning what exactly money has
Brought us. You dodged the question as usual.

I'll answer for YA there kid.
It ain't brought any more deer, that's for damn sure.
It ain't brought any more hunters.
It has brought corruption, division among hunters
And a perpetuating circle of graft and cronyism.

You keep trying to half ass capitalize and privatize a
Resource that was never meant to fall under that method
Of disbursement / management.
We've followed and sacrificed under your BULLCHIT
Plan for the last 20 years.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
OK Buzz,

Then show these other whimps the plan organize them and get it done so I don't have to hear this whimpering every year.


Wiley,

99% of tags are still handed out under your stone age socialist method. Less than %1 of the tags are sold. How in the heck do you place blame for your crappy hunting on the %1.

You lying airbag you haven't lived under a capitalized system for twenty years.



I really can't wait to see yall get everything you want.
 
Look BOY, the minute wealth tags and bonus points came in to play
Scientific management went the route of your logic. Out the damn
Window.

To be exact 5% of LE tags are auctioned and another 200 are given to
Your hero to make even more money to pay off and lobby politicians to
Get even more money and tags.

And yep BOY, the infamous million hunter March on the Capitol by $FW
was in 1994.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"Look BOY, the minute wealth tags and bonus points came in to play
Scientific management went the route of your logic. Out the damn
Window."

Look womanwapiti your a liar. Nothing in that sentence is true and you can't back it up with anymore than your nail polish.

"To be exact 5% of LE tags are auctioned and another 200 are given to
Your hero to make even more money to pay off and lobby politicians to
Get even more money and tags. "

To be exact its still less than %1 of the total big game tags in the state. That means you and your failed system are still responsible for the state mule deer are in. Be a man and own up to it.

"And yep BOY, the infamous million hunter March on the Capitol by $FW
was in 1994."

I could care less, woman.
 
Has anyone in Utah filed a public records request lawsuit demanding accountability for the funds raised by selling a state owned resource?
 
Such and angry lad....

I can guarantee its 100% true, but who am I to argue
with an expert such as yourself.

Stay in Texas where you are already screwed and let the
adults handle their business in the west.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"Angry"

I'm not the one that spent the last four years on an internet forum crying and screaming about something you don't have the balls to deal with.
 
>"Angry"
>
>I'm not the one that spent
>the last four years on
>an internet forum crying and
>screaming about something you don't
>have the balls to deal
>with.

Insert worlds tiniest violin... Wha.. Wha...

Complaining about people complaining... the irony...


http://fenderimages.com/
 
Sneakem,

I ain't complaining about complaining. I am complaining about people who whine for years with no balls or intent to ever do anything about it. They are like teenage girls on anti-depressants.
 
>Sneakem,
>
>I ain't complaining about complaining.
>I am complaining about people
>who whine for years with
>no balls or intent to
>ever do anything about it.
> They are like teenage
>girls on anti-depressants.

This whole thread is basically like watching children point fingers at each other... blaming one another...

History will teach you that eventually the weak will have enough... unite... and break their foot off in some a$$. Our country was founded on the principle... its the repetitious outcome of the so called oppressed throughout the history of the world.

So maybe there are a bunch of pansies that whine.... to lump them into a mass of so called "average joes" that have no balls is a far cry from the truth...to assert that "average joes" are a bunch of uneducated, unorganized individuals that look for handouts is a bold statement... and very NAIVE on your part also...

It might take decades for it to come to fruition... but it will happen...

http://fenderimages.com/
 
you make a bunch of statements that say things I never said.

As for the term "average joe" or average sportsman I picked that term for a reason. I used it becuase there are a group of people who use it as if it is an actual position which they decide who fits and who doesn't all the while excluding others which they reject for no logical reason whatsoever and claim it bolsters their emotionally based rants.
 
"something you don't have the balls to deal with."

TriTip, How would a BOY like yourself know anything about
what men do??

Keep leeching off society and hog hunters down there
in Texas. Leave real hunting to the men.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 08:38PM (MST)[p]The reason tristate can make fun of Utah like this is because of who gets voted in office in the state of Utah. I have watched over the years how increasing radical Utah's politicians have become. It never used to be like that, I don't know what happened? It's embarrassing for LDS church members and bad for Utah's image.

Tristate is right. Organize, and get rid of creeps like Ken Ivory and Jason Chavetez
 
Thank God at least one state has some damn sense.

Way to go Idaho!!

"H0032 ? Idaho Fish and Game Increase
After reading the letter from Virgil Moore, please take a moment to fill out the Idaho State Bowhunter?s Survey at the end!

March 11, 2015
Fish & Game Commission Process Should Be Protected

By Commissioners Fred Trevey (chairman), Mark Doerr (vice-chair), Brad Corkill, Blake Fischer, Lane Clezie, Kenny Anderson and Will Naillon
There appears to be a misperception among some Idaho lawmakers that the Fish and Game Commission has ignored prior legislative directives to raise revenue and improve habitat and access. These directives include allowing hunters to pay an extra fee to improve their drawing odds for controlled hunts (bonus points), making tags available to land owners for private sale, and auctioning big game tags to highest bidders.

We certainly respect the Legislature?s role in setting wildlife policy but the Commission has considered all these issues in recent years and vetted each of them with hunters, anglers, trappers and the general public. In all three cases, a majority made it clear to us they were opposed and we acted accordingly. The Commission continues to explore these and other options and to visit with sportsmen and women about them. However, we have heard and are concerned these directives could become legislative mandates linked to our proposed license revenue bill.

The Commission-supported ?Price Lock? revenue legislation ? House Bill 32, is being held in a House Committee while some lawmakers are said to be working on their own version with these mandates included. If this new version of the bill emerges, it in our view, overrules the Commission process of using science and input from the public as the basis for implementing wildlife policy.

The 1938 citizens? initiative that created the Commission established nonpartisan fish and game management. If lawmakers proceed and attempt to bypass the Commission and implement these measures through legislation, they are compromising the spirit of that initiative by overruling extensive sportsmen involvement and thoughtful Commission deliberations.

As Commissioners, here are some common themes we often hear:

Manage wildlife for the good of all Idahoans, not just a privileged few.
Keep hunting, fishing & trapping opportunities available and affordable for everyday Idahoans.
Reward landowners for supporting wildlife habitat or public access without sacrificing state ownership of wildlife.
Keep politics out of wildlife management.
For 76 years, the Commission, along with sportsmen and women have worked together to create the tremendous wildlife resources and heritage we have in Idaho today. We ask the Legislature to pass the Commission-supported revenue bill without compromising the Commission?s integrity and its management role.

Good luck.






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
>"Look BOY, the minute wealth tags
>and bonus points came in
>to play
>Scientific management went the route of
>your logic. Out the damn
>
>Window."
>
>Look womanwapiti your a liar.
>Nothing in that sentence is
>true and you can't back
>it up with anymore than
>your nail polish.
>
>"To be exact 5% of LE
>tags are auctioned and another
>200 are given to
>Your hero to make even more
>money to pay off and
>lobby politicians to
>Get even more money and tags.
>"
>
>To be exact its still less
>than %1 of the total
>big game tags in the
>state. That means you
>and your failed system are
>still responsible for the state
>mule deer are in.
>Be a man and own
>up to it.
>
>"And yep BOY, the infamous million
>hunter March on the Capitol
>by $FW
>was in 1994."
>
>I could care less, woman.

ANTELOPE ISLAND TAG, not biologically necessary. Doesn't change population numbers, doesn't cull inferior genetics. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC, BIOLOGICAL REASON FOR IT. It was solely about money, and not even the reason THE DON sold it is true. TRI, we call that proof of Wileys statement.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
That doesn't prove Wileywoman's statement at all. Are you telling me that killing two bucks off Antelope island proves it is detrimental to the deer herd there???? Answer this question.

Did the state stop all other management upon the island? I think not.

You are grasping at flimsy straws.
 
I think tristate would make a great Utah politician??. Fit right in with most of em.

Let's organize a campaign?
 
Piper you are 100% correct.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Hello everyone!
I have been a long time reader of Monster Muleys and typically enjoy my time here, so thanks for all the pictures and great stories. This is the first time I have ever wanted to post on any topic. So here I go.

This guy named TRISTATE is the reason why hunting has a bad name in some communities. He has taken away the single most important reason why we as sportsmen hunt. We hunt for the enjoyment of the outdoors, to provide food for our families. Like most extremists they use hate, reverse psychology, and blatant bullying tactics to get their points across. He is the single most devastating type of sportsman we have.

As a sportsman I grew up respecting the privilege I have to be outdoors and hunt the amazing animals that the American public OWN! Hunting is not a God given RIGHT, it is a privilege. People that feel their money or movement are bigger than the entire picture or process are missing the entire picture.

You TRISTATE have zero reason to question or personally challenge any person for posting any concern about your organization or views. This freedom was given to us by our family members that lay down their lives for our freedoms. I personally hate any person that tries to take that away. And you sir (loosely used) are a poor example of a man or sportsman. So post thousands of times, try to make your point, harass the average Joe, but it still does nothing to deter the blue collar, pay check to pay check Americans that will be funding our local wildlife departments.

God Bless,
AverageJoe
 
Howdy averagejoe,

I like a good laugh as much as the next guy so thank you. First you might like to know that the outdoors isn't on the internet and second I would like to know what is "my organization"?
 
Actually Tristate, you bring up a great idea. Why not make all auction tags at the Expo be donated to someone afterwards..?? "Wildlife" will still get their money. And the donation will be a tax write-off. And there will be a lot of lucky guys/gals out there that will get a tag for an animal, in a unit/state that they would otherwise NEVER be able to hunt...

I don't think this is a challenge to us "Average Joe's" I think it's a challenge to the Uppity Ups of the auction circuit...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Again TRI, why would we buy a tag, you know PAY $fw for a tag as a way to protest $fw? You don't protest FORD by buying a F-150. I think I get what your trying to challenge us with, but they way you think it should be done only enriches the organization we are opposed to. I am anti meth, so to prove it I ain't going to take a hit on the pipe!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hossblur,

Do you believe the average joe should have hunting opportunities? That's what I keep hearing on here. "Evil rich people get to kill big deer". "Its a rich mans game". On and on. Well go kill two birds with one stone. One more rich guy doesn't get a tag and one more average joe does. Win, win. The DWR is part of this deal too. Have you stopped applying for your tags. If you draw a tag this year are you going to turn it down because it is "meth"?

Here is the truth. Self-righteous, bitter, haters, never get organized. They are happier sitting on their butts spreading their hate for as long as anyone can stand hearing it. They lack the talent, drive or even desire to actually make a difference one day.
 
Tri do you lack talent or drive? Do you have to hire a guide to be successful? If you were talented or driven couldn't you go DIY?
 
Tri,

The reason you don't get what we are saying is simple, GEOGRAPHY. You live in a place in which most of the state is private land. Therefore in order to access it you either need to know someone who will let you on, or you "pay to play".

I live in Utah, most of it is public. In order to access it i simply drive 15 min, and I am there.

Because of that difference the majority of us in the west (Texas ain't west) have a different relationship with the land, and the wildlife on it. My family line on both sides came to Utah with the Mormons. They were sent to central utah where they carved out a life, on "public", (not a state yet) land. I have family today that still runs sheep on public land. My grandparents fed there families with deer. Long before the mighty trophy hunter came along, they hunted deer, on public land. I still hunt the EXACT areas they did. When you grow up in a culture that is that attatched to the land, and the hunting tradition, it is part of your heredity.

Does that mean that it should be free? NO. But lets not pretend that my licenses and that Pittman Robinson act don't finance the majority of the DWR. Do I think the DWR has done a piss poor job of managing wildlife, YES. However that is a problem within the agency, which in my opinion has to do with too many POST grads, and not enough biologists. It is a beauracy, too often people fail upwards, and are rewarded simply for seniority, not ability. None of which has $fw changed, nor would they, they profit from the DWRs failings.

That was where $fw came into being. $fw was going to be the check on the DWR. They were going to be a voice for the "average joe". Unlike you, I actually know some of the founders of $fw. At its begining, I was contacted about joining with them. Early on they put up good fights against bad props, bad decisions, bad policy. BUT.... Then they changed. THE DON got power, and QUICKLY got corrupted. The leadership, was seperated from the average hunter, and started traveling in circles with guides, outfitters, "professional hunters", and the people that support them. They were surrounded by people for whom hunting was simply a buisness, no different than livestock ranching. Because of this, they became the spokesman for these groups, thats not good or bad, it just is as it is.

So, the issue we have with them now are 2.
1. They continue to lobby the gov. for special regs, rules, etc., that benefit the "chosen" few, but in doing so try to convince the legislature that that represent 100k plus sportsmen. They DO NOT.

2. They take in millions, mostly from tags that were taken out of the general draw, and claim to use the money for wildlife, YET, refuse to account for that money. The easiest way to stop the negetive comments about them would be to shut us up with the truth, because they don't do so, and because of past shadiness, they bring the scrutiny on themselves.

So TRI, the fact that you live in a place that is perhaps the polar opposite when it comes to hunting, and access to Utah, its not suprising that you are so misinformed and plain wrong.

Your challenge to form a group, goes unheard because so many of us were so baddly burned from the group that was going to save hunting, $fw, that no one will ever trust a "savior group" again.

Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I love how there is only a hunting culture if you hunted on public land.

I came from two ranching families here. I lived off of deer meat, rabbits, birds, and frogs. That's right friggin FROGS. I can still remember the first piece of beef I ever ate. Do you know what its like growing livestock your family can't afford to eat themselves? I can remember my dad poaching a doe in the summer so we could have some meat. That's right he poached it so his boys could eat meat. I can remember watching a coyote kill a doe and leaving her. You know what I did? I loaded her in the truck and ate her. It was meat from God for me and my family. You know who my baby sitter was when I was growing up? A .22 rifle and a pasture. I would get dropped off at dark and picked up at dark. We (my family) still have opening weekend family hunt here. It has been going since 1950. Every single shingle over my kids head and bean on their plate was paid for by a wild animals death. I have been in the hunting industry since I was 16. I really don't think YOU can understand what a hunting culture really is.

You want to talk about a hunting culture????? Put that story in your pipe and smoke it.
 
I was wrong, there are 2 differences. Geography, and industry. Tri, I have never made a single dime from hunting. Hunting has cost me work, relationships, health, etc. and I do it every year. You profit from the "trophy" hunter, so your thoughts and ideas on hunting are formed by it. Does that make you a bad guy, I dont know you. I do know this, and you said so yourself, every shingle over your head was paid for by hunting. If the hunting industry disapeared tommorow, you loose your living, it doesn't affect me at all. I don't hunt for money. I don't profit from it, so the continued industrialization of the heritage of hunting benefits you and hurts me, wonder why you fight so hard for $fw.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Tri, exactly how far off base is the North American Model
Of Wildlife Conservation in your opinion??



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
That's an incorrect assumption about me Hossblur. I DON'T CARE ABOUT SFW. Not one little bit. DO I think they are angels? Doubtful. Do I think they are the only solution for wildlife? Definitely not.

What I can tell you is this, and you know I am always brutally honest with you. We HAVE to maximize the fiscal value of our wildlife. Auctioning less than %1 of big game tags in a state is not enough. I don't care if they auction off %25 of the tags and give 1/2 the money to the BSA. As long as the DWR is enriched much more than it is now and people recognize the actual fiscal value of their wildlife. Not some made up hypothetical value distributed by the state but when real responsible people like you and me can alter our incomes with wildlife. If you want people who don't hunt to care about the wildlife you have to show them how it effects their pockets in a positive way and pays for itself.

Currently all I see are a bunch of people who are in a selfish bickering match thinking if they get those tags put in the draw they will somehow be happier. That doesn't help the deer one bit.
 
Wiley, the NACM isn't far off base but it has been bastardized and propagandized into other things that somehow people believe to be its purpose.
 
Tri, glad at least we are now actually debating instead of the usual bomb throwing.

I disagree. By you and I paying "more" for tags, it does nothing in a public land state. You can go see any wildlife in utah, for free at any time. The birdwatchers, etc. pay only for wildlife with the sporting goods purchases, not buying tags or auctions. Non consumptive users will still contribute nothing.


In Utah we have a very powerful, and very politically connected CWMU system. The biggest being Deseret,which is owned by the biggest voting block in the state, the LDS church. The CWMU system will NEVER allow tags to be auctioned, for one they would be made unecessary. They have guaranteed tags every year, which along with tresspass fee fund them. Take away the guarantee tag, they become tresspass fee only. The general "average" joe will never allow an auction in which they can only bid on general season tags while the "rich" can bid on LE/CWMU. Opening these tags to general auction would also lower the price on those tags. What makes the CWMU tag so valuable is there limited availability. If I can win a bid on a northern utah tag, I would then only need to pay tresspass fees with the current landowner. Most of the CWMU operators in Utah aren't land owners so they would be out of a job. Supply and demand says that auctioning off 90,000 tags, plus the "special" tags the CWMU gets lowers the overall price on the high end, but in fairness would raise the lower end. Not to mention the obvious, $fw would be shut down, they would loose there 200 free tags as well.

The UDWR has zero appetite for auctions regardless of revenue, otherwise they would simply auction the 200 tags they give $fw themselves and keep 100% of the money, rather than the tiny ammount they get now from the $fw auction. And in that lies the problem. UDWR is not a biological organization that operates to benefit wildlife. It is a slow moving, poorly organized beauracracy. Year after year they make plans, then change them before any data can come in to either support or defeat the previous plan. It is not effective, and flooding it with cash would only make it worse, there would be less pressure to be successful, and in fact would be used by the state legislature to fund there other pet projects. The upper end of DWR has been so infiltrated by lobbyists and special interest groups that they act as one in the same. Much like the tax code, every reg, special consideration in Utah game law is a give away to some special interest.

I would be a nice dream though, no points, no waiting, no LE, CWMU, just buy the tag you can afford, pay tresspass or hunt public and enjoy life. I would support it, but the "rich" guys and their guides/outfitters/CWMU will NEVER let that happen.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
There you go again Tristate. Just when I think you are starting to make a few semi-rational points you fall bass-ackwards into your true self and state that we need to auction off large numbers of tags in order to "maximize the fiscal value of our wildlife." Once again you are wrong.

The push to turn our backs on the North American Conservation Model (NACM) and commercialize wildlife is one of the biggest threats that hunters in the west face today. One of the basic tenets of the NACM, which you claim has been abused and bastardized, is the democracy of hunting. This tenet is inspired by Theodore Roosevelt's idea that open access to hunting would result in many benefits to society. The right to hunt in the United States by citizens of good standing is in contrast to nations where hunting is restricted to people with wealth, land ownership, or other special privileges. This principle is what allowed thousands of average sportsmen across the west to buy a tag and go hunt wildlife on public ground. It is what allowed thousands of sportsmen to take up the sport of hunting.

To argue that we need to turn our back on this basic principle of conservation is ludicrous. It is akin to Don Peay stating publicly that the NACM is a socialist approach and that it is time to ?revisit? the widely accepted principle that wildlife is a public resource. See http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...ares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

While global warming, real estate development, highway mortality, disease and drought are all threats to hunting and wildlife in the west. An argument can be made that the agenda that you are espousing to further commercialize hunting is perhaps an even bigger threat. In states across the west, unsuspecting sportsmen initially agree to allow a few tags to be auctioned off in the name of conservation, and before you know it you have 500+ premium tags set aside for the conservation banquets and the expo. Where do you draw the line? For people like you and Don Peay, I suppose the answer is that all tags should be auctioned off to the highest bidder? It will be a sad day for sportsmen and conservation ff that ever happens.

-Hawkeye-
 
ANd this is exactly what I mean when I say the NACM has been bastardized. There is absolutely NOTHING about it that guarantees it is YOUR RIGHT to hunt. No where Hawkeye.
 
Tristate-

Have you been sniffing taxidermy glue again? Show me where I referred to "MY GUARANTEED RIGHT TO HUNT?" Go back and read the second paragraph of my post. The tenant in question from the NACM is referred to as "Democracy of Hunting." This tenet provides that citizens in good standing have just as much right to hunt as people of wealth, land ownership, or other special privileges. This is one of the primary differences between the North American Model and the European Model, or the Texas model for that matter.

Somehow, I think that auctioning off all of the tags to the highest bidder would run afoul of the NACM and be more akin to the European model. But then again, maybe I am just a socialist.

-Hawkeye-
 
"Wiley, the NACM isn't far off base but it has been bastardized and propagandized into other things that somehow people believe to be its purpose."

And that my friend is the problem.
Sister 1
Wildlife is a public trust.
meaning no special considerations should be given to anyone over another. This includes bonus points and wealth tags. Why are orgs making bank off of a public resource.

Sister 3
Democratic rule of law
There is no Democratic rule in Utah. Lumpy's deer plan had the support of 1 Conservation Org out of the MDF, RMEF, UBA and BOU. Less than half of the public that spoke supported this plan and yet here we are.

Sister 4
Hunting opportunity for all.
can you honestly tell me that dudes that can scratch a big check don't have special privileges like no waiting periods and not having a random draw??

sister 5 and our personal favorite
Non frivolous use of wildlife.
Is it BS to use wildlife to pay expenses for an expo??
this is where we differ and if you look at my signature you'll understand why.


People like you and Peay are the ones bastardizing this model. If you don't believe in it thats great, but to try and tell the rest of us that we don't get it because we don't want to give up what works for the latest and greatest scheme is bullchit.

As evidenced by the recent actions of the Utah DWR they don't believe in the Model either and that my friend is the other problem.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Tristate it seems like you have turned a life of poverty into one of riches, congrats to you. That is quite an accomplishment. I think most hunters are okay with states auctioning off 1 tag, I am. I just worry it will lead to more tags being auctioned. Surely you can understand why hunters don't want their tags to be auctioned off. I'm not sure if you are a guide or what, but it seems like hunting is just a way for you to make money. It is much more than that to us average Joes. I understand you want to make more money, we all do, but not at the cost of so many others. For example, should we auction off seats in a classroom so only rich kids get an education? I know education is a right and not a privilege, but we could get into an argument about auctioning off other items as well. Surely somewhere in your mind or heart you can see that your plan is a little wicked.

I understand your point of view about getting off your butt and making something happen. I have a few little complaints , but for the most part I think things are alright. I'm thankful for the hunting opportunities that I have. I feel that you would like to take them away, and I don't agree with it.
 
No Hawkeye,

You wrote this.

" The right to hunt in the United States by citizens of good standing"

That is where you swerved off the road.
 
"Sister 1
Wildlife is a public trust.
meaning no special considerations should be given to anyone over another. This includes bonus points and wealth tags. Why are orgs making bank off of a public resource."

Again this is exactly what I mean. You just translate it into whatever you feel it should mean and then it actually contradicts the system you prefer.

Isn't a preference point a "special consideration". I think the only person that will argue that is the guy with 18 of them.

"Sister 4
Hunting opportunity for all.
can you honestly tell me that dudes that can scratch a big check don't have special privileges like no waiting periods and not having a random draw??"

It says hunting opportunity. Not hunting opportunity for the biggest and best antlered bucks.


"sister 5 and our personal favorite
Non frivolous use of wildlife.
Is it BS to use wildlife to pay expenses for an expo??
this is where we differ and if you look at my signature you'll understand why."

No it isn't.
 
Schoolhousegrizz,

I did not come out of a life of poverty. My parents had three children at a very young age. It took my dad a little while to get through school and get his legs under him. We were all very blessed and thankfully we had a lot of wild game around to keep us fed.


Sure I understand why hunters don't want their tags auctioned off. They don't want to have to pay for what a tag is really worth. They want to keep buying deer tags for $400. I am perfectly fine with tags not getting auctioned but the tags have to sell for A LOT MORE. Start selling deer tags for $2000 apiece and You will hear a lot less out of me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15 AT 08:15AM (MST)[p]My parents also had 3 kids at an early age. Their first kid came when they were in high school. My dad worked 3 jobs and we didn't have a lot of money. My mom eventually finished college and they do pretty well know. Thank god my dad was still able to take his kids hunting, my life would not be the same if he wouldn't have been able to afford a deer tag. I finished college, but still work 3 jobs so my family can have some fun. I don't complain, I love my life and the jobs I have. After all, I chose them and if I didn't like them I would do something about it. I'm thankful that I can afford to hunt and I pray that my kids will have the same privilege. Tristate, why 2000 dollars? Don't you think that is a little steep? That would put hunting out of reach for many of us and our families. Why do you want prices raised?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-15 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]Tristate,

Why don't you get off your lazy a$$ and jack those Resident Texas fees for deer tags to $2,000 each.

I'm personally growing tired of your high pitched whining about tags being under-valued.

Lead by example...tuffie.
 
Tristate-

You only quoted half of the sentence from my prior post. "The right to hunt in the United States by citizens of good standing is in contrast to nations where hunting is restricted to people with wealth, land ownership, or other special privileges."

Once again, we do not follow the European model here in North America. All law-biding sportsmen should have an equal opportunity to hunt and we do not restrict hunting to the wealthy, privileged and elite. Does this mean that everyone should be able hunt the Henry Mountains each year? No. Does this mean that I should be able to hunt a premium unit every year? No. It means that all sportsmen should be treated equally and we shouldn't have large numbers of people buying their way to the front of the line year after year. The commercialization of hunting and the proliferation of conservation tags, expo tags and governors tags in the name of "conservation" is in direct conflict with this principle.

Now help me understand how we are bastardizing the NACM by simply pointing our one of its basic principles?

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye,

Not arguing anything about Europe. THERE IS NO RIGHT TO HUNT HERE. You have been lied to. You are bastardizing the NACM by assuming that.
 
BUZZH,

Our deer aren't in decline here and we aren't desperate to come up with funds to pay for them.
 
You are off point yet again. The idea of democracy of hunting is that under the European model, wildlife was allocated by land ownership and privilege. In North America, anyone in good standing can participate on equal terms. This simply means that sportsmen will be treated equally and have the same opportunities regardless of their standing. Nobody is talking about an absolute right to hunt anywhere and at anytime.

It is not accurate to accuse me of bastardizing the NACM when I am simply quoting from the doctrine itself. Perhaps you should do a little reading and then look in the mirror.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye,

quit splitting granite with that noggin of yours. I ain't arguing Europe versus USA. I am telling you that YOU said hunting in the USA is a right and it ain't.
 
Hawkeye, I like the way you talk.

It's like gun control, one certain kind of gun regulated off the market then another and all of a sudden every gun is gone.

A few more expo permits here and a few more there and all of a sudden half of the permits are expo or bid permits. No one realized it was happening. So is life if we sleep.
 
>BUZZH,
>
>Our deer aren't in decline here
>and we aren't desperate to
>come up with funds to
>pay for them.

Until George Washington comes to life off that dollar bill and starts breeding does, the pile of money sitting in $fw bank account didn't create a single deer.

Tri, artificially setting the price at $2000 is the same as artificially setting it at $40. If you truly believed in an open market you would support ALL TAGS being put out open bid style. But that would mean no LE, no CWMU, no special rules and regs. If you really believe in the market setting the price then 100% of the tags go up. In doing so you 100% eliminate $fw and its ilk. What you support is the general draw tags being auctioned, and a pile of tags reserved for the special people(aka the rich and politically connected), or the people that pay YOU the best.

If you want a true market, you can't price fix at all, otherwise your picking winners and losers, same as you claim we are.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-15 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]Really BuzzH!

I cannot understand how you can call me yesterday and not even mention your post #33, you posted on Friday the 13th.

So you aren't trying to work with me (WY SFW), you are trying to decrease our influence in Wyoming. Sure didn't seem that way when you and I spoke yesterday. I thought you were talking about finding common goals and objectives we can all work together on?

This is speaks volumes to your character and intentions.

Why did you really call me yesterday?
 
Actually you are making incorrect assumptions about my beliefs Hossblur. I pitched the $2000 figure for tags just to give someone an example for which to go by. In reality I am totally for every single tag being auctioned. Every single one. But some people on this thread have stated the UDWR has no interest in running an auction. SO I set an artificial tag price. If they are placed at $2000 and by the time deer season rolls around not all were sold, lower the price next year. Doesn't bother me one bit.

The other false assumption you make is that you have to get away with LE tags if you go to auction systems. At the same time it really doesn't bother me if you did. You see I am actually VERY FLEXIBLE in how the system is structured as long as revenue for the DWR itself is maximized and value of the species is maximized. It has nothing to do with favoritizing certain buyers. It is simply about bringing in as much money for deer as possible. If all the average joes can produce a tag system that outbids the rich guys IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME A BIT.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-15 AT 03:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-15 AT 02:57?PM (MST)

So, Tristate. How does the supply and demand/free market system work when a 3rd party is allowed to control the availability of and access to the supply and is making money and growing in the process?

We'll likely see an increase in the deer population again this year, but we'll see little or no increase in permits via increased population objectives, increased buck to doe ratios, more doe transplants, and an increase of Limited Entry units.

And what about when the demanders also own the supply? Aren't they allowed to set the prices which is what we have done here in Utah?

Finally, what assurance do we have or can we get that any additional funds are used to benefit the wildlife and our hunting lifestyle? Simply throwing money at a problem doesn't always translate into a solution.
 
"So, Tristate. How does the supply and demand/free market system work when a 3rd party is allowed to control the availability of and access to the supply and is making money and growing in the process?"

The same as if there was no third party involved. How does the third party "control" availability?

"We'll likely see an increase in the deer population again this year, but we'll see little or no increase in permits via increased population objectives, increased buck to doe ratios, more doe transplants, and an increase of Limited Entry units."

OK

"And what about when the demanders also own the supply?"

Now you get to find out how much you actually "own" and how much bull you have been fed.

" Aren't they allowed to set the prices which is what we have done here in Utah?"

Sure. I haven't said you can't. There are plenty of examples throughout history where the power of the average joe prevailed and sent everything right down the toilet.

"Finally, what assurance do we have or can we get that any additional funds are used to benefit the wildlife and our hunting lifestyle?"

You don't get assurance. That's right you don't get any.

"Simply throwing money at a problem doesn't always translate into a solution."

You are missing the point entirely. I am not increasing the revenue to "throw money" at problems. I am doing it so the entire public recognizes there is fiscal value in both their wildlife AND YOU KILLING IT. Right now to most of the public you are nickels and dimes, that don't matter, killing worthless wildlife. The only people that do care you are killing deer are the emotionally attached whack jobs.
 
There is NO fiscal value to the general public in us killing deer. We, hunters, artificially increase the numbers of prey animals, then kill them. A non hunter would simply say let nature run its cours, and it would, and we would have the boom bust cycles that happen as a result. My neighbor might enjoy seeing a deer from time to time, but in fairness, she would probable enjoy seeing a wolf more. Deer have an EMOTIONAL value to us. They are part of our(hunters) fabric.

I was out on Antelope island last year watching Dennys deer. 6-7 bucks over 30"s bedded down together, not far from the road. Car full of folks, California plates stop and ask me what I am looking at. "biggest deer you'll ever see" I tell them and offer my scope for them. "no, we want to see buffalo" was the answer. To me, buffalo, especially out there, are just dumb cows, but those deer, they are speical. To others, there "just deer". To my neighbor, that $399,000 deer out on AI, is no better than that raccoon out in the pasture. Deer are only valuable to us, and only to a point, after which, beef tastes better anyway!

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
"There is NO fiscal value to the general public in us killing deer."


Exactly. You said it. I TOTALLY AGREE! This is the point I have been trying to get across to yall. THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.
 
"There is NO fiscal value to the general public in us killing deer."

The large majority of the general public are happy to see deer, elk, moose, wolves, bear, cougar, etc etc. at a zoo or at best a wildlife park such as the San Diego Zoo.

We have big game, all species of it, because we hunters and only us hunters want them, to hunt and kill. We enjoy looking at them and learning their behaviors, to be sure, but the hunting aspect and all that goes with it are what we really want and why we invest billions and fight to keep and grow big game herds. The rest of the public doesn't know and most care very little about these large herd sizes. The general public believes these species still wonder the forests and the fields because nature puts and keeps them there. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Since the end of the 1800's, when the western US became populated, hunters and only hunters, (some politicians are hunters) fought for and preserved big game. It got so bad the only elk and bison in the US were a small number, preserved and protected in Yellowstone National Park. (And we believe hunters would "never" kill off their big game herds,if it wasn't regulated? Ya, imagine that!) Since that time, sportsmen and their State wildlife agencies have "raised" big game. The same as a rancher raises livestock. Free ranging wildlife is not domestic livestock so different methods of "raising" them have been and continue to be used to grow and preserve "our" herds. Yes, "our herds". Let me repeat that: THE ONLY REASON WE HAVE FREE RANGING BIG GAME IS BECAUSE SPORTSMEN "RAISE" THEM TO HUNT! NEVER, EVER FORGET THAT!

The minute "we" stop raising them, they are GONE, to be found only in national parks and zoos.

As hunters "we" "raise" them, then we quarrel over how and who gets to kill them. In the last 30 years, with the exception of mule deer and pheasants, hunters have done a better job "raising" them, so we quarrel over deer and ignore the increase in elk, goats, antelope, moose, sheep, turkeys, chukers, ducks and geese. (Mule Deer are the most critical big game animal in the Western US, so far as preserving our hunting lifestyle, so they darn sure are worth fighting to preserve, as a hunting species. We need to demand that mule deer numbers increase, so don't misunderstand my point here.

As long as there is pubic forests and fields, we'll have wildlife, if we ever loose these public lands, big game becomes domestic livestock, same as cows, sheep and pigs. Regardless of who owns/controls our public lans, be i the State or the Feds, hunters, for our own lifestyle preservation, need to make damn sure these lands stay public and available to "raise" and hunt "our" big game herds.

These species have NO value to the general public, but they damn sure have value to us.

DC
 

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