400” or 200” what’s harder

200 or 400 what’s harder?

  • The buck

    Votes: 23 25.0%

  • The bull

    Votes: 69 75.0%
  • Total voters
    92
C

Cam@strawberry

Very Active Member
Messages
2,379
Been thinking about this a bunch. Handful of guys I run around with swear up and down that a 200” mature mule deer is significantly more of an achievement than a 400” bull.

I don’t believe that’s true at all, over the years I’ve stumbled across 10 and maybe 11 200” deer in the field. 7 general season unit bucks and 3 on the Henry’s. Helped get all three of the Henry bucks killed 235” 218” and 207”. Counting last month 2 of the GS bucks were killed as well 215” and 202”.

I can’t say confidently I’ve ever seen a 400” bull on the hoof. I think I have, 1 time. I hunted (guiding) one for 2 consecutive seasons that would have been 7.5 and 8.5 yrs old. He was killed at 11.5 and scored 392”. When I was hunting him I thought he was upper 390’s at 7.5 and just over 4 at 8.5.

In my experience, the elk is far more difficult to achieve. Both in locating and actually hunting.

So what say you? What’s more challenging, the buck or the bull?
 
400 is more difficult. 380" would be the same. I am like you. I have seen deer that hit 200", I have never seen a legit 400" bull in the wild.

With that said, I would still love to harvest either one of them!!!
 
Speaking only in Utah, but there are way more 200” deer killed every year than 400” bulls.

There are a number of 200” bucks killed on general season tags as well, not just premium LE areas. You will never see a 400” bull killed on a general season tag.

There are A LOT more 200” bucks floating around out in the field than 400” bulls each year, whether they are killed or not. That alone ought to give you your answer.
 
I think a 200" or better mule deer is a heck of a trophy and beats the heck out of a 350-360 bull but you start talking 400" class bull elk it's a whole different ball game and finding and killing a 400" bull would definitely be tougher especially here in Utah imo...
 
I think this is a loaded question.

With that said, and in my hunting experience. Finding a 200” buck is way easier then a 400” bull.

But again in my experience killing the big old wise muley, is harder then killing the bull.
 
There has been a bull over 400 killed on an over-the-counter unit any bull in Utah. It was killed with a muzzleloader in the Uinta basin. It was about 15 years ago and went well over 400 even though it was broken. These type of bulls exist but are very rare and usually hang out on the Rez like this one did ;).
 
I depends on what part of the world you live in. Resident New Mexico and Arizona hunters have pretty darn good chances at big bulls.
 
I live in SE Montana where elk are on a limited permit and mule deer are hunted for five weeks over the counter in November. It is way easier to find a 400 inch bull than a 200 inch buck or for that matter even a 180 buck.
 
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The bull. I am speaking for the area I live in and would not be sure about other areas. I have never seen a 400" bull. I have seen a few 200# bucks (at least I believe they were).
 
If we play the ratio game, to get to the same number of bulls versus bucks, I’d have to come down to the 380” range I think? I’m trying to remember that caliber of bull and higher, and it feels like I can come up with 10 or so of them, of which I’ve got 3 of them killed. So even there, 5 of the deer died versus 3 of the bulls.
 
I haven't killed either, so I think they are both pretty hard :ROFLMAO:

Do agree with most here - I believe I have seen more 200" deer than 400" bulls.
 
DBLung said:
I depends on what part of the world you live in. Resident New Mexico and Arizona hunters have pretty darn good chances at big bulls.
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They might have chances at “big” bulls but a 400” bull is truly special and rare. I would argue that you could count on two hands the number of 400 bulls to come out of AZ and NM combined each year. There are dozens and dozens of 200” mule deer to come out of those states each year. I would say 375-380 bulls and 200” muley are a better comparison.
 
All depends on the tag and area, IMHO.

If its an OTC general tag, deer would be "easier" than elk but there's nothing easy about killing either one in that caliber.

I've seen 1, maybe 2 bulls that would go 400" gross. One was a typical and one was a trashy sucker. My wife killed a 383' on that hunt BUT it was LE.

I've seen damn few 200' class bucks but I think I've seen more of them than 400" elk.

Zeke
 
All you have to do is look at how many 200" bucks are killed on GS units each year, vs how many 400" bulls are killed on GS units. Many places in the west have an actual chance to produce 200" bucks year in and year out. I can think of a single general elk unit that would produce a 400" bull right now.
 
As you said, it is entirely based on the numbers. It’s also based on the time of year of the hunt. Hunting elk during their rut and deer prior to the rut isn’t a far comparison, nor is visa versa.

If the State is managing for yearly bucks and five year old elk. Can’t compare. Same if they manage for any bull and mature bucks. Not a fair comparison.

All things being equal……… it’s impossible to know because in this world of big game hunting……. nothing is ever equal. Regardless both are, for the general hunter, very difficult, and have proven to be pretty damn difficult for some professional hunters.

I consider you a professional hunter berry, that was a great buck you killed this fall.
 
I have guided elk hunts in 3 western states. Some of the hunts were on fantastic private land in areas with very good genetics. Neither I, or any of my hunters have ever killed a 400" bull. The biggest was 387". Regarding deer, I have one well over 200" and I have had multiple hunters and friends shoot deer over 200". To me, it isn't even close. The deer is MUCH easier. Now if you changed it to 200" typical, then we would have a conversation.
 
DaveD said:
I have guided elk hunts in 3 western states. Some of the hunts were on fantastic private land in areas with very good genetics. Neither I, or any of my hunters have ever killed a 400" bull. The biggest was 387". Regarding deer, I have one well over 200" and I have had multiple hunters and friends shoot deer over 200". To me, it isn't even close. The deer is MUCH easier. Now if you changed it to 200" typical, then we would have a conversation.
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Curious Dave, from your perspective. Where I live in Utah, for example a range/unit/ranch (what ever you want to call it) that have a far greater number of deer in a given area than we do elk, like many thousands of deer vs a few thousand of elk. On a ranch, where the trophy management is extremely different, there are a lot more mule deer that are allowed to reach maturity, elk maybe not as much.

From an observational perspective out of a thousand mature mule deer, how many would exceed 200” gross. Same for a thousand mature bull elk, how many would reach 400”

Can or do elk produce an equitable number of each, be it 400” or 380” elk.

Just think berry has asked an interested question, you seem to have had a lot of field experience.
 
2lumpy said:
Curious Dave, from your perspective. Where I live in Utah, for example a range/unit/ranch (what ever you want to call it) that have a far greater number of deer in a given area than we do elk, like many thousands of deer vs a few thousand of elk. On a ranch, where the trophy management is extremely different, there are a lot more mule deer that are allowed to reach maturity, elk maybe not as much.

From an observational perspective out of a thousand mature mule deer, how many would exceed 200” gross. Same for a thousand mature bull elk, how many would reach 400”

Can or do elk produce an equitable number of each, be it 400” or 380” elk.

Just think berry has asked an interested question, you seem to have had a lot of field experience.
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I think you are on a good though process. I don't consider myself an expert but I'll offer my opinions based on my experiences.

Outside of overall population differences, I think the main factor is the higher likelihood of deer becoming non-typical and adding on all those extra inches. That contributes to more opportunity to shoot 200" deer. Non-typical bull elk are just not as common.

I also think deer with the right genetics and feed can reach 200" at a much earlier age than a bull elk can reach even 350". My biggest buck was only 4.5 years old. My biggest bull was 8.5. Elk simply have to survive longer to reach full potential making it less likely.

On the managed ranches I have hunted, I can't say for certain I have ever seen a 400" bull so 0-1000. There was one that was a maybe. I have seen 50+ deer that I was certain would go over 200". Most of those were after the season on winter range but occasionally during the hunts so for deer I would say >1 -1000. They are still very rare...

My 2 cents for what it's worth.
 
DaveD said:
I think you are on a good though process. I don't consider myself an expert but I'll offer my opinions based on my experiences.

Outside of overall population differences, I think the main factor is the higher likelihood of deer becoming non-typical and adding on all those extra inches. That contributes to more opportunity to shoot 200" deer. Non-typical bull elk are just not as common.

I also think deer with the right genetics and feed can reach 200" at a much earlier age than a bull elk can reach even 350". My biggest buck was only 4.5 years old. My biggest bull was 8.5. Elk simply have to survive longer to reach full potential making it less likely.

On the managed ranches I have hunted, I can't say for certain I have ever seen a 400" bull so 0-1000. There was one that was a maybe. I have seen 50+ deer that I was certain would go over 200". Most of those were after the season on winter range but occasionally during the hunts so for deer I would say >1 -1000. They are still very rare...

My 2 cents for what it's worth.
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It’s actually worth quite a bit, it is good to hear and learn from people that are in the trenches, when it comes to things that are of interest.

I can’t find anything to disagree with what you shared. I think it helps give berry’s question some depth as well.

Thanks for the time invested.
 
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Vanilla said:
Speaking only in Utah, but there are way more 200” deer killed every year than 400” bulls.

There are a number of 200” bucks killed on general season tags as well, not just premium LE areas. You will never see a 400” bull killed on a general season tag.

There are A LOT more 200” bucks floating around out in the field than 400” bulls each year, whether they are killed or not. That alone ought to give you your answer.
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Tyler Robinson killed a 405 on range creek, public land otc. made into Eastmans mag even,
 
antlerradar said:
I live in SE Montana where elk are on a limited permit and mule deer are hunted for five weeks over the counter in November. It is way easier to find a 400 inch bull than a 200 inch buck or for that matter even a 180 buck.
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Got me thinking about this. In the past twenty years I have seen one 200 inch buck and at least a half dozen 400 inch bulls.
Granted most were on private land.
 
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The bull is easily the correct answer here, most people will only ever see pictures of a 400” bull. Fortunately a 200” buck is still a possibility in most places especially in late season, I’ve seen half a dozen or more this year.
 
I would say because of how rare a 400 inch elk is and how bad people are at judging them, most of the elk people claim to have seen but haven't killed them are really 360 to 380 inch elk. Everyone thinks their 320 bull is 350 on the hoof so same applies at the top end. I've never seen a 400, biggest was a clean 6 typical that would have netted 380 all day.
 
Agree, most really nice bulls aren’t even 320” it takes an exceptional bull to score in the higher 300’s they are out there but much more difficult to find and hunt than a mulie in my opinion. I have real nice bull that most people think is a monster, it only scores 315”

7EDA8CAF-D437-4747-9C1F-F49CCE66646E.jpeg
 
In 40 years of hunting i have seen 4 bulls that would break 400.
One in Utah, two in Wyoming and one in Arizona. Of the four two are in my office. One from Wyoming and one from Arizona. I have seen several 200+ buck over the years but only a couple of typical in that class. Luckly i have one of those as well. All of the big deer and elk I have seen have been on public land.
I have seen bigger elk over the years, but they didn't have what it takes to make 400.
Any way you look at it the jumbos are getting harder to find!
 
I know pictures or it didn't happen.
The 200 inch buck
DSCN3213.JPG

The sheds form this bull are 179 6/8 and approximately 168 depending on how much is broken off the G1. He would need around a 52 inch spread to make 400. One of the wider bulls I have ever seen. When he was shot two years later he was much smaller and still had a 49 inch inside spread. It is likely he was close to 400.
elk set.JPG

This bull is smaller than the sheds I found from the year earlier, The sheds gross over 415, confident he is still over 400.
DSCN0100.JPG

My son shot this bull. Official gross of 401 even with the two inch G5 on the left.
103_0011.JPG

This bull was taken the next year and is 389. He is bigger this year and I am thinking 400 to 405. Couldn't find his antlers and it wasn't form lack of looking.
DSCN0975.JPG

This bull was taken opening day of the rifle season. Official net score of better than 419. Wish I had better picture, he was absolutely huge.
DSCN1450.JPG

I have the year earlier shed from this bull, high 380's if unbroken. This year he added a 13 to15 inch extra third, so I am estimating right at 400. And yes I muffed a 35 yard shot the last day of the season.
DSCN2108.JPG
 
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I am getting 330 max, likely even less as he is long arming him and using a wide angle lens. Could be only 300. Just hard to tell with a picture of a bull you have never seen or held antlers from for reference.
 
It’s really hard with photos, fun to try and estimate. This bull has about 8”-12” of broken tines or he would have scored higher. he was really old, no teeth left. In his prime he was a good one.
 
BBW said:
It’s really hard with photos, fun to try and estimate. This bull has about 8”-12” of broken tines or he would have scored higher. he was really old, no teeth left. In his prime he was a good one.
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You’re gonna lose a lot of people with the “no teeth left” comment. There hasn’t been a bull shot ever in history that had zero teeth. Worn teeth? Yes. Missing some lower fronts? Very likely if he’s really old. Missing all of his teeth. Not happening.
 
i suck at hunting elk, have never scored one, so a big muley is "easier" in my opinion. though not easy at all, i enjoy the hunt (and find it "easier") for a big muley better than even a cow elk hunt! Elk live in nasty hell-holes, deadfall, etc. Big muleys live in beautiful rocky cliffs, aspen groves, or open high country! I don't think i have ever seen a 400" bull even in RMNP. Have seen several 200" muleys over 18 years in the western states
 
I think for this to be a fair comparison you need sizes that are closer to likelihood of happening. What I mean is instead of comparing 200” deer to 400” bull, it would make more sense to have 200” to 370” bull. A 400” bull would need to be compared to the likelihood of killing a 250” buck. Just my opinion.
 
Nev638 said:
I think for this to be a fair comparison you need sizes that are closer to likelihood of happening. What I mean is instead of comparing 200” deer to 400” bull, it would make more sense to have 200” to 370” bull. A 400” bull would need to be compared to the likelihood of killing a 250” buck. Just my opinion.
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Naw, I agree, I think that was berry’s point when he said maybe use 380” for the elk.
 
A quick look at my outdated B&C Awards book confirms what everyone is saying here.

Looking at gross score there are way more Typical mule deer listed that score over 200 than there are total Typical and Non-Typical elk that break 400 gross.
Then there are 3 pages of Non-Typical mule deer listed that by definition, blow 200" out of the water.
Not even a close comparison.
Apples and Oranges!

On the hoof wild, I've never seen a 400" bull
 
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257Tony said:
All you have to do is look at how many 200" bucks are killed on GS units each year, vs how many 400" bulls are killed on GS units. Many places in the west have an actual chance to produce 200" bucks year in and year out. I can think of a single general elk unit that would produce a 400" bull right now.
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Look at LE too, a certain LE deer unit produces 5+ 200 inch bucks each year on just the one unit. While you maybe see just a couple 400 bulls killed in the whole state each year.
 
Nev638 said:
I think for this to be a fair comparison you need sizes that are closer to likelihood of happening. What I mean is instead of comparing 200” deer to 400” bull, it would make more sense to have 200” to 370” bull. A 400” bull would need to be compared to the likelihood of killing a 250” buck. Just my opinion.





Now I'd take a 250 inch muley over a 400 bull, everyday of the week...now you're talking!!!
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Down the road it will be even harder to see a 370 bull let alone a 400.
With guys on the board wanting to change everything to manage for 320 bulls and a top end being 5.5 years old.
We are in the era of opportunity.
Run more guys through the draws and make more money.
10 years from now you will want to thank
Berry blaster and others for were we will be.
 
fullcry said:
Down the road it will be even harder to see a 370 bull let alone a 400.
With guys on the board wanting to change everything to manage for 320 bulls and a top end being 5.5 years old.
We are in the era of opportunity.
Run more guys through the draws and make more money.
10 years from now you will want to thank
Berry blaster and others for were we will be.
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I will definitely thank Berryblaster and others that are pushing for change on the Elk plan, because I enjoy hunting. Screw the days of watching Denny Austad kill every 400" bull on the Pahvant year after year, while bulls that will never reach that level waste away.
 
fullcry said:
Down the road it will be even harder to see a 370 bull let alone a 400.
With guys on the board wanting to change everything to manage for 320 bulls and a top end being 5.5 years old.
We are in the era of opportunity.
Run more guys through the draws and make more money.
10 years from now you will want to thank
Berry blaster and others for were we will be.
Click to expand...
Sure would be a shame if the guides ran out of giant bulls to post on instagram that the diy hunter will never have a chance at.
 
FWIW, there are 59 bulls (American Elk) all-time in the P&Y records that score 400 or higher as typicals or non-typicals. There are 269 Mule Deer listed scoring 200 or higher, both typical & NT.
 
I think deer are more likely to grow extras which makes the 200" mark more attainable. If I find time, maybe I'll look up the numbers on just typicals, but I'd guess the numbers are a little closer.

However, if we look at the record books, you'd really have to look at per capita of harvested animals. Maybe twice as many 200" typicals have been entered than 400" typical bulls... but if 4x as many bucks were killed, the 400" bull is more prevalent.

I voted the bull is more rare though. I just think there are so many factors that have to be all exactly right for a bull to get over 400" of bone. I almost think its unnaturally big...
 
Vanilla said:
Speaking only in Utah, but there are way more 200” deer killed every year than 400” bulls.

There are a number of 200” bucks killed on general season tags as well, not just premium LE areas. You will never see a 400” bull killed on a general season tag.

There are A LOT more 200” bucks floating around out in the field than 400” bulls each year, whether they are killed or not. That alone ought to give you your answer.
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I know of several 400 inch bulls killed on general in SE Utah. Not everything hits the internet.
 
There’s a ton of factors that go into it, population probably being the single largest. In utah we manage for 3x the deer versus elk. That alone will skew it significantly.

Still doesn’t change it, if I control for as many variables as I possibly can and try and make fair comparison ie (380 versus 200) in my sphere it’s still significantly harder to get to the elk IMO.

Might be another story in the Missouri breaks, or the wind river range of WYO. For my hunting world, which is central utah and South Dakota, places where I’ve spent enough time with tags to feel like I’ve given it a fair shake the bull is far more of a prize for me.
 
I also don’t think a 400” bull is comparable to a 200” deer. I think a 380” bull and a 200” deer are more comparable.
 
I know i would rather kill a 200 MAIN FRAME buck than 400 bull.
It depends on local and experience in any given area.
A resident in Colorado 10years ago. 400 probably harder..
A guy that can hunt elk every year in the rut…
That big it’s all hard
 
I would say without a doubt a 200" gross mule deer is much easier to find than a 400" gross bull elk for a guy hunting multiple western states. If you are talking net typical mule deer and net typical elk, then that would be a completely different argument.

If the geographic area was limited, that would also change the argument. For example the Gila wilderness in SE Arizona and SW NM would be much easier to find a 400" bull than a 200" mule deer.

On the other end of the spectrum you could look at most of Colorado. You could hunt your entire life in most units in Colorado and never see anything close to a 400" bull but in those same units have a decent chance of seeing a 200" mule deer every year.
 
The money you have to spend on a tag/outfitter or the luck you have drawing a tag in an area where 200” or 400” giants live has far more to do with it than which species is actually more difficult to put on your wall IMHO. Which part of the season and which weapon obviously has a huge impact. GS vs. LE. DIY vs. outfitted. Public land vs. private. All those factors matter significantly.

If you narrowed the question to “which is harder to take on an unguided, general season hunt on public land” there might be different answers, certainly depending on the state. Fun topic though…
 
Hh2122 said:
The money you have to spend on a tag/outfitter or the luck you have drawing a tag in an area where 200” or 400” giants live has far more to do with it than which species is actually more difficult to put on your wall IMHO. Which part of the season and which weapon obviously has a huge impact. GS vs. LE. DIY vs. outfitted. Public land vs. private. All those factors matter significantly.

If you narrowed the question to “which is harder to take on an unguided, general season hunt on public land” there might be different answers, certainly depending on the state. Fun topic though…
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Guessing there is 100+ outfitters with realistic potential for 200" deer to every 1 outfitter with potential for a 400" bull.
 
Elk are stupid and get killed before they can max out potential.

Deer are hard to kill and don’t get hunted as much in the rut.

If you had both a 400” elk and a 200” mule deer scouted up, which would be easier to get killed??
 
DaveD said:
Guessing there is 100+ outfitters with realistic potential for 200" deer to every 1 outfitter with potential for a 400" bull.
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Perhaps…but last time I checked an outfitter or tag in a unit with 400” potential will cost you a helluva lot more and be incredibly difficult to draw…how many average joes have that kind of money or luck and will never get that opportunity? I agree there are probably many more 200” deer on the hoof than 400” elk, but the opportunity or access to hunt them is not equal either. The average joe hunter may actually have a shot at a 200” buck in a few states on public land during the general season hunt that most of us end up hunting. For that reason, a 200” buck gets chased by far more people and I argue the more difficult to attain because more people will hunt and never get one vs a 400” which most of us will never even have a shot at. Anyway, fun to think about both.
 
Bull elk take more years to mature and reach 400" proportions compared to 200" muley bucks. As mentioned numerous times, there are a lot more 200+ muley bucks in the books than 400 class bulls so it may not be a fair comparison.

It was pretty tough to beat Utah a few years ago for the number of 400 class bulls harvested in scattered units with public access across the state. Unfortunately, there has been a downward trend in 400 class bulls in those same areas.

There may not be 400 class bulls available in Colorado in any given year but up until the past few years Colo was re-writing the B&C books for 200+" typicals and nontypicals.

The recent downward trend in 400 class bulls in Utah and 200 class bucks in Colorado B&C listings are an indication of how truly special those critters are. The downward trend also illustrates the negative impact increasing tags plus rifle rut hunting season dates have on older age class bucks and bulls!
 
Everybody Has Still Got The 400" Bull Syndrome They Think They're Gonna Harvest When They Get Their Tag!

There Never Was Alot of 400"+ Bulls in Utah!

But There's a HELL of alot Less of them Now Thanks To PISS POOR Management & GREED!

I Stopped in Heber a couple of Weeks ago to get a Samich!

A Couple Guys in a Booth across from Me Were Talkin Perty Loud!

And I Quote:

You Hear about That Buck The Phillips Kid Got?

No I Didn't?

Ya,I Heard Somebody Seen The Buck & Called The Phillips Boys To Let Them Know Where They Seen The Buck!

Did They Get Him?

Ya,The Buck Scores Like 245"!

245"?

Yes!

Anyway BEAV!

Just Thought I'd Let You Know How Big Your Buck is Getting!

The Same BS Happens around here as Well!

I Also Heard Them Mention an 800 Yard SmokePole As Well!:D

Sometimes You Just Gotta Sit Back & Listen!
 
400 in bull is much harder to find let alone kill then a 200 in buck. Take it another step further 400 in six point vs 200 in 4 point and you’re talking about an even tougher challenge.
 
I tend to agree with antlerradar, it's the deer. I've got personal experience with ZERO of either that size. However, I do have a friend that proves the point this year, both taken in MT this same season by him. Official measurer gross scores of 403-6/8, and 199-2/8 (not yet after 60 days). So that proves it. :) Pictures are not mine to share.
 
You wouldn’t score a straight 6 400 bull or 200 in 4 point by sci standards if you killed one it wouldn’t make sense. Nor does SCI. I’ll bet more 200 in 4 pt. typicals have been killed in Colorado and Wyoming alone then 400in 6 bulls across the entire west.
 
Yeah I bet if you gathered all the data you would find it is rarer to kill a 400in straight 6 then a 200in straight 4. And if you throw just the inches number and toss the 6 point and 4 point aspect the number of deer in the 200s would really blow it out of the water. I’ll bet you have a better chance in Montana of killing a 400 in bull then a 200 in deer.
 
Google it yourself Boone and Crocket longhunter society and Pope and Young. I’ll bet you’ll find a lot of good information.
 
wstrntines said:
Yeah I bet if you gathered all the data you would find it is rarer to kill a 400in straight 6 then a 200in straight 4. And if you throw just the inches number and toss the 6 point and 4 point aspect the number of deer in the 200s would really blow it out of the water. I’ll bet you have a better chance in Montana of killing a 400 in bull then a 200 in deer.
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I once had an opportunity at a 6x6 bull that I feel was a legitimate 420+ thing was insane had him at 40 yards broad side but could only see the top of his back due to the brush. He then turned and ran away out of my dreams and into my nightmares lol. Doubt I will ever see a bigger bull in person in my life. I got a very good look at him as he ran away.
 
JakeH said:
I once had an opportunity at a 6x6 bull that I feel was a legitimate 420+ thing was insane had him at 40 yards broad side but could only see the top of his back due to the brush. He then turned and ran away out of my dreams and into my nightmares lol. Doubt I will ever see a bigger bull in person in my life. I got a very good look at him as he ran away.
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Ouch that’s a kick to the boys. I bet it was a heck of an experience though.
 
What about a 380 bull on private land you don’t have permission to hunt? Harder than a 200” on land you can hunt?
 

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