3 mass measurements below the prong

[gznokes]

This is a buck I got last year that I gross scored at just under 78 inches because it gets three mass measurements below the prong.

It was only a 14 1/2 inch buck on one side and 13 1/2 on the other with 3" and 4" prongs. But because it forks so high it gets 3 mass measurements below the prongs.

Does anyone else have any photos of bucks with this characteristic? This seems to be a scoring nuance with antelope that is kind of rare.

 

[AZDuke2500]

you cannot have a measurement on or below the prong. It states that you must take it just above the prong. Check the boone and crockett and pope and young score sheet for the D-3 measurement.
sorry that goat is more like 67.

 

[EliAGrimmett]

The score sheet I just downloaded from B&C's website says for the D3:

"If D3 falls in the swelling of the prong, move the measurement up to just above the prong."

In this bucks case the prong does not appear to interfere with the D3 measurement at all and therefore the measurement should be taken where it falls.

Maybe there is a revised scoring procedure written somewhere, but I can't seem to find anything that says you can't have 3 mass measurements below the prong.

Maybe P&Y is different as well, I don't know.

AZDuke2500 - do you have any written information from B&C that confirms what you're saying or a web page on their site? I'd like to know for certain if their score charts are inconsistent with what they're scorers are actually practicing.

 

[gznokes]

Eli you are correct. We checked with an official B&C scorer and he confirmed that if the 3rd measurement falls beneath the bulge of the prong that it counts below the prong. That is the case with my buck. His prongs start very high on his horn and he has a lot of mass. He said he had only scored one other antelope with this characteristic.

Really it's just a nuance of the scoring system and doesn't have a lot to do with anything. Its sort of like a friend of mine shot a 177 inch bighorn sheep. If the ram had broomed its horns about 2 inches shorter it would have scored over 180--go figure.

I've really been getting into pronghorns and just thought I'd throw it out there for a little discussion.

 

[littlejoe]

Eli:

How is/did your 08 season go? My dream/goal is to hunt antelope with you or your dad at some point in my life. You guys are the best!

 

[EliAGrimmett]

Thanks for the compliment littlejoe! Our 08 season has been great so far! I post a lot on www.thearizonahunter.com You'll find a lot of photos of the bucks we've been taking on that site.

We still have a few hunts to go before the season comes to an end - hopefully we can take a few more whoppers!

 

[littlejoe]

Eli, Thanks for the info!

Beyond Net and Gross is there any difference in the SCI and B&C scoring system for antelope? I know that in moose it is a big difference in how the score is calculated.

 

[EliAGrimmett]

Well, the biggest difference other then the net and gross score is that SCI will allow the measurement normally taken above the prong to be taken below the prong if that measurement falls anywhere ON OR BELOW THE PRONG. This basically means that a lot more bucks wind up having 3 measurements below the prong because the bucks prongs don't have to be quite as high for the third mass measurement to be below it.

Another thing the B&C implemented recently is that any base attached the horn cores cannot have a first quarter measurement smaller than the base measurement or else they will just double the smaller measurement. Basically, if the buck has a 7 4/8 base and a 7 2/8 first quarter, but the bases have been attached the cores, then the base will only receive a measurement of 7 2/8.

This, to me, is ridiculous because they're basically saying that you should leave the horns unattached for 60 days if your buck has huge bases. Of course by doing this your bucks bases will shrink a lot more and, in some cases, shrink to the point where the horns will no longer even fit over the horn cores. It also opens up the possibility of being able to rotate the horns while sitting on the cores which can/will affect the prong measurement.

It doesn't happen a lot in Arizona and New Mexico, but I know that a lot of the bucks in Wyoming have bases much larger than their first quarter measurements. But, according to B&C's new rule, the bucks apparently aren't allowed to grow bases bigger than their first quarter.

 

[littlejoe]

The scoring system is a joke for sure. Nothing like penalizing an animal once again. I do like the SCI third mass measurement below the prong. All my mid 70's goats are now well into the 80's or higher. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[jims]

GZnokes,
I'm pretty sure you can take the 3rd horn mass measurement below the prong for B&C but can not for P&Y. According to P&Y you have to move the measurement up to above the prong.

I shot a Colo buck several years ago that was 16" and had fairly short stubby prongs like the one in your photos. I could take the 3rd measurement below the swelling of the prong but would feel mighty guilty putting something like that in B&C! It would add several additional inches to the score which I think is a bunch of bull because the buck wasn't near as big as how the score came out!

 

[gznokes]

Jims, If you have a photo of that buck I'd love to have you post it. The mature antelope that truly get 3 mass measurement below the prong is rare. You are right it can also really boost the score.

You bring up a good point. I completely agree that scoring has major limitations. But its also kind of a fun game and it is surprising to see what kind of combinations and configurations can produce a "book animal".

So let me ask you to clarify something. You said you would feel guilty putting a buck with short little stubby prongs in B&C. It seems a buck like yours that carries its mass so high on the horn is an extra special buck and represents a unique configuration that ought to be represented in the books. It might lack prong length but it makes up for it in mass. When I judge antelope I look for mass, followed by prong length, followed by length--in that order.

 

[BigPig]

One of the few animals where P&Y differs from B&C. With B&C you can have the 3rd mass measurement below the prong. With P&Y you cannot, you must alwasy have two below and two above.

 

[jims]

gznokes,
Send me an email and I'll send you a photo of that buck. He actually is ok in mass but having 3rd mass measurements below the prong really boosts his score. I'm not trying to take anything away from that particular buck but when I compare him to other antelope I've shot that didn't make B&C he doesn't appear to be in the same category. Bucks like that ought to be in a "nontypical" class of their own?
[email protected]

 

[gznokes]

I'll send you an email. The private message option works too if you have the correct email associated with your MM account.

You have a great idea about a non-typical pronghorn category. People don't really think of non-typical pronghorns but there are enough weird ones out there that it might make sense.

I recognize that my antelope's score is boosted significantly by this anomoly. Its just an interesting discussion. I don't take any offense in your comments about the photos of the buck I posted.