My brother called today and wanted to know if I thought 140 gr Sierra Gamekings were too light a bullet for elk. He shoots a 7mm Rem. I suggested he go with a heavier bullet and recommended Swift Scirocco's or Nosler Accubonds. He is very happy with the groups he is getting with the 140 Sierra's and has alot of confidence with this load, so that is worth a lot. He has never shot anything bigger than a deer with this. I just don't have any experience with this bullet. Does anyone have any experience with this load on elk? Wyo elk this year will be our first hunt together since he moved back from Africa.
140 gr. Sierra Gamekings
- Thread starter mulecreek
- Start date
LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-11 AT 12:39PM (MST)[p]
If I were your brother shooting that 7mm mag, I would move up to the 154 grain Hornady Interbond for your elk hunt and never look back. I swear by their factory ammo and that's all I also use in reloads for my .243, 25-06 and 30-06s.
If I were your brother shooting that 7mm mag, I would move up to the 154 grain Hornady Interbond for your elk hunt and never look back. I swear by their factory ammo and that's all I also use in reloads for my .243, 25-06 and 30-06s.
completesportsman
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I'm shooting 160gr Accubonds in my 7mag.
sageadvice
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The Gameking bullet has a lot of followers including RELH and Kilo who's opinions i think very highly of. That said, i like what the Nosler Accubond does on game, makes a nice big hole and, in most cases, pushes all the way thru the animal.
I'd tell your brother that there are probably better options both in bullet and bullet weight out there but one of those 140 gr Gameking bullets in the right place will certainly do the job!
Confidence in your weapon, putting them just where they need to be, is 90% of putting any animal on the dirt!
Joey
I'd tell your brother that there are probably better options both in bullet and bullet weight out there but one of those 140 gr Gameking bullets in the right place will certainly do the job!
Confidence in your weapon, putting them just where they need to be, is 90% of putting any animal on the dirt!
Joey
Maybe comparing apples and oranges here, I have been using Hornadys 140 SPBT in my Win 270 for years on elk and have yet to see any reason why I would need to bump that up to the 150's.
Having said, if the 150's shot better in my 270 then the 140's I would have switched over years ago. For some reason my 270 seems to prefer the 130 and 140 grain slugs over the 150's.
400bull
Having said, if the 150's shot better in my 270 then the 140's I would have switched over years ago. For some reason my 270 seems to prefer the 130 and 140 grain slugs over the 150's.
400bull
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booner76
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140 Gameking's work just fine for me.
RELH
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As Joey said above, I am a big fan of the Sierra Gameking bullet FOR DEER AND ANTLELOPE!! When I go after elk or other larger game, I switch over to Nosler Partitions.
The Sierra gameking bullet is a very accurate bullet, but I feel it's jacket is a little light for deep penetration, if hitting bone, on a large animal like elk or moose.
If he stays with the gameking, he should be careful and take only broadside lung-heart shots to insure the bullets gets into the vitals.
RELH
The Sierra gameking bullet is a very accurate bullet, but I feel it's jacket is a little light for deep penetration, if hitting bone, on a large animal like elk or moose.
If he stays with the gameking, he should be careful and take only broadside lung-heart shots to insure the bullets gets into the vitals.
RELH
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AZWALKER
Guest
I shoot Hornady 139's out of my 7mag exclusively. I switch bullets depending on what I'm hunting. BTSP's for deer and SST's for elk. Never had a problem with either, except when I used an SST on an Antelope. It just poked holes. Whatever has the best kenitc energy. With elk you want good weight retention to get in and do damage. A lot of guys think bullets are meant to kill by creating bloodloss. Not so. Bullets kill by shock. Flesh is 90 percent water, water cannot compress. When a bullet hits flesh that water has nowhere to go so there's a shock wave sent from the bullet outward turning everything to pulp. This shock is what kills not loss of blood. Archery is the opposite. Heavy bullets might have more KE close but how do they lose farther out and how fast?
"TThe deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General Johcan J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
"TThe deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General Johcan J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
Zeke
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A bunch of great advice has been flung your way!
If I may add my 2 cents: I would use the "new" accubond Nosler or the interbond Hornady in a bullet with a bit more weight than the 140. I've used the 7mm rem for years and have killed a handful of elk with it and used a Partition at the time but I like the down-range properties of some of the new stuff.
Lucky for me I've killed a bunch of elk and not all bullets will hold together or penetrate deeply enough for elk.
Remember; bullets are about the cheapest part of the hunt, use a good one. Accuracy, while important, is not the most important factor. Choose wisely.
Zeke
If I may add my 2 cents: I would use the "new" accubond Nosler or the interbond Hornady in a bullet with a bit more weight than the 140. I've used the 7mm rem for years and have killed a handful of elk with it and used a Partition at the time but I like the down-range properties of some of the new stuff.
Lucky for me I've killed a bunch of elk and not all bullets will hold together or penetrate deeply enough for elk.
Remember; bullets are about the cheapest part of the hunt, use a good one. Accuracy, while important, is not the most important factor. Choose wisely.
Zeke
LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-11 AT 08:17PM (MST)[p]
AZWALKER---I hope that was a typo when you said you use SSTs for elk and that you meant Interbonds. The SST is not recommended for bigger game like elk. I made a mistake one day and had them in my 06 instead of my Interbonds and when I shot a cow elk the SST blew up on the near rib and made a mess of things and I never got her until the next morning. That's the only animal I've ever shot that went over 50 yards and it was my mistake for having the wrong bullet in the rifle. That was also a good explanation on bullets because, whereas arrows kill by bleeding out an animal and shutting down the cardiovascular system, a bullet kills mainly by hydrostatic shock.
AZWALKER---I hope that was a typo when you said you use SSTs for elk and that you meant Interbonds. The SST is not recommended for bigger game like elk. I made a mistake one day and had them in my 06 instead of my Interbonds and when I shot a cow elk the SST blew up on the near rib and made a mess of things and I never got her until the next morning. That's the only animal I've ever shot that went over 50 yards and it was my mistake for having the wrong bullet in the rifle. That was also a good explanation on bullets because, whereas arrows kill by bleeding out an animal and shutting down the cardiovascular system, a bullet kills mainly by hydrostatic shock.
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AZWALKER
Guest
No you're right but its not Interbonds, they don't make those factory in 139's. GMX on Elk and BTSP Interlocks on deer.
As for ballistics, it always makes me laugh when guys say that they want a bullet that will pass all the way through and leave a good blood trail. I've actually heard that quite a bit believe it or not! My brother-in-law has given me quite an education on bullets and what they're meant to do. He's from New Zealand and had shot thousands of animals. He loaded his own bullets and because he hunted so much he could really test performance. He shot a Tikka in .270 exclusively and used on Tahr most often. He had a load with a 140 grain pill that would drop a bull Tahr in his tracks. He worked up a load that would penetrate the front shoulder and stop just inside the back shoulder. He said if he went to a hotter load, it would pass through completely and the bull always ran. He explained that if all the energy of that bullet was left inside the animal, it did the most damage and killed quicker. Now I know there are some here that might disagree but this guy has killed more big game than anyone I have ever met in person or on any website. Anyway, for anyone reading this, find a load that will stay in the animal!
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
As for ballistics, it always makes me laugh when guys say that they want a bullet that will pass all the way through and leave a good blood trail. I've actually heard that quite a bit believe it or not! My brother-in-law has given me quite an education on bullets and what they're meant to do. He's from New Zealand and had shot thousands of animals. He loaded his own bullets and because he hunted so much he could really test performance. He shot a Tikka in .270 exclusively and used on Tahr most often. He had a load with a 140 grain pill that would drop a bull Tahr in his tracks. He worked up a load that would penetrate the front shoulder and stop just inside the back shoulder. He said if he went to a hotter load, it would pass through completely and the bull always ran. He explained that if all the energy of that bullet was left inside the animal, it did the most damage and killed quicker. Now I know there are some here that might disagree but this guy has killed more big game than anyone I have ever met in person or on any website. Anyway, for anyone reading this, find a load that will stay in the animal!
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
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booner76
Guest
Alot will depend on what type of country you are hunting, what kind of a shot you will be presented with, as this bunch knows, Velocity is what makes a bullet expand, it just depends on how much speed your gonna have when the bullet hit's the animal, SST's, the early 90's Ballistic tip's some of the modern day soft point's even, as has been posted, will expand to prematurely if the speed is high will expand at to high a rate for the amount of penetration needed to reach the vital's on a specific size game animal. So often when you have an elk at 40 yard's, even some of the most strongly constructed bullet's will not perform as advertised meaning even they will open to quickly and not penetrate. but if the elk is 150yd's away, that same controled expansion bullet will perform perfectly. This is magnified ten fold with a non-controled expansion bullet. An SST that way's 165gr shot out of a 30-06 at 2850fps will work fine.....if our elk is 200 + yards away, because it has slowed to 2300fps, but if it hit's an elk's rib's going 2700fps, you could have problems. I agree accuracy is probably the most important thing, but when you are hunting an animal with a vital area the size of a basketball, you can afford to give up some accuracy even for longer shot's. I agree with the Partition guy's, killed lot's of animals with them, they alway's work no matter what the distance and speed. I know I said the sierra's will do just fine, and I am standing by that, I have used them alot only because my gun also likes them, And they are'nt as explosive as an SST or like bullet's, many of us know that from experience as well, but a partition is a better choice.
Hope this help's
booner.
Hope this help's
booner.
just_a_hunter
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You'll learn that when you ask for the best steak house in town on the internet, you really meant that you want to eat chicken.....
Will they work?.... Yes... Are they the best choice for elk?... Lets just say there are better steak houses in town....
Good luck,
Todd
Will they work?.... Yes... Are they the best choice for elk?... Lets just say there are better steak houses in town....
Good luck,
Todd
sageadvice
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Here's why i like the Accubond; It makes a nice sized hole going in and a nice sized hole going out. I've only taken several animals with the bullet but they all have dropped in their tracks. If by chance they don't drop immediately, i'll gladly follow 2 big open wounds vs one small one at the entry hole.
Laugh all you want but if you ever lost a good animal because the blood "ran out", you might be more so inclined to choose a bullet that penetrates thru and raised Cain while it was inside.
I'm touting the Accubond here but there are a good number of bullets on the market that will do similar. Pick and choose as you wish but i'll do whatever possible to not ever lose another animal.
Joey
Laugh all you want but if you ever lost a good animal because the blood "ran out", you might be more so inclined to choose a bullet that penetrates thru and raised Cain while it was inside.
I'm touting the Accubond here but there are a good number of bullets on the market that will do similar. Pick and choose as you wish but i'll do whatever possible to not ever lose another animal.
Joey
Too funny Todd. I should have expected this.
In all honesty, I do appreciate everyones input. I told him to run with them if he is happy with the way they are shooting. If he wants to switch then he has plenty of choices. Either way I will be there to back him up with a 180 gr accubond out of a 300 RUM.
In all honesty, I do appreciate everyones input. I told him to run with them if he is happy with the way they are shooting. If he wants to switch then he has plenty of choices. Either way I will be there to back him up with a 180 gr accubond out of a 300 RUM.
LAST EDITED ON Aug-11-11 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]I like the Accubonds for North American game. I dropped a moose with one shot at 325 yards. The bullet when in behind the shoulder messed up the heart and lungs, it did not go more than 10 yards. The bullet exited. There good if you don't hit big bones. North American game you don't have to shoot the animals in the shoulder to drop them. I broke the shoulder a 400+ pound kudu at 260 yards in the with a 200 grain Accubond from a 300 win mag. I still have the bullet, it weighs 110 grains. I shot a Gemsbok at 450 hit it quartering away in the back of the ribs, the bullet was just under the hide in the neck on the opposite side. The bullet weighed 132 grains recovered but did not take out any major bones and only one lung. Was not an instant kill. Had to follow it for about 300 yards before it laid down and expired.
A deer hunter borrowed 300 during my moose hunt, with the same load (as his rifle was out of zero for what every reason) he shot a mule deer with it at 400+ yards quartering away, he got it in the back ribs on the near side and the bullet did come out behind the far shoulder deer hit the ground where it stood.
Same load dropped a 300 lbs. sow at 50 yards with the same load, the bullet went in just front of the right shoulder exited behind the left shoulder. The pig squealed took 3 steps and expired. Both the exit wound was the side of a quarter. The lungs were a mess.
I shot a blesbok a 220 lbs. Blesbok at 240 right quartering away through the back of the near shoulder the bullet was under the hide in the neck. I did not recover that bullet, but on a 220 lbs. animal the bullet should have exited. I just think the Accubonds are a little softer than advertised. I will continue to use them on north American game because I don't have to shoot them in the shoulder to drop them like African Game. If I had to shoot more dangerous game I would opt for a Partition.
A deer hunter borrowed 300 during my moose hunt, with the same load (as his rifle was out of zero for what every reason) he shot a mule deer with it at 400+ yards quartering away, he got it in the back ribs on the near side and the bullet did come out behind the far shoulder deer hit the ground where it stood.
Same load dropped a 300 lbs. sow at 50 yards with the same load, the bullet went in just front of the right shoulder exited behind the left shoulder. The pig squealed took 3 steps and expired. Both the exit wound was the side of a quarter. The lungs were a mess.
I shot a blesbok a 220 lbs. Blesbok at 240 right quartering away through the back of the near shoulder the bullet was under the hide in the neck. I did not recover that bullet, but on a 220 lbs. animal the bullet should have exited. I just think the Accubonds are a little softer than advertised. I will continue to use them on north American game because I don't have to shoot them in the shoulder to drop them like African Game. If I had to shoot more dangerous game I would opt for a Partition.
Hydrostatic shock does kill. Basically if you hit an organ that is full of fluid, like the heart it will explode. It will also push blood back through the system with enough force to explode some major blood vessels. This will kill an animal almost instantly. But if you hit the lungs, the lungs are mostly full of air. There is not hydrostatic shock, but the lungs are also full of big blood vessels. A double lung shot usually won't instantly kill the animal instantly, but will bleed an amimal out really quick and cut off thier oxygen. they will usually go down in under 20 seconds with this type of hit.
It is really all about shot placement. Hit the spine and you will pole ax an animal. It may or may not kill them but will stop them dead in thier tracks.
It is really all about shot placement. Hit the spine and you will pole ax an animal. It may or may not kill them but will stop them dead in thier tracks.
Phantom Hunter
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+1 RELH. I shoot 160 gr Nosler Partitions for elk and have never had a problem. Am currently working up a load with 160 gr. Accubonds just for fun. IMHO 140's are too light for elk if the only shot presented in a quartering shot.
Phantom Hunter
Phantom Hunter
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booner76
Guest
Sage, I know you think I am a #####, but an honest question for you, I have not shot accubonds, but agree 100% with what your saying, have you shot deer sized game with them at close distance?
I shoot a 7 mag with 160 sierra BTSP but here in WI I have had them blow the piss out of deer at close range, could show you pic's if you want, like volleyball sized holes, curious your opinion on accubonds close up, thinking about switching for wi because of close shot's, usually under 100 yards.
thought's, booner.
I shoot a 7 mag with 160 sierra BTSP but here in WI I have had them blow the piss out of deer at close range, could show you pic's if you want, like volleyball sized holes, curious your opinion on accubonds close up, thinking about switching for wi because of close shot's, usually under 100 yards.
thought's, booner.
llamapacker
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Put me in the category who prefers total pass through for broadside shots. Not many bullets will give complete pass through on a Texas heart shot.
I believe the 140 Sierras are too light and soft for elk. Eventually you will have a problem. Use a bullet with heavier construction.
A lot of the discussion above about "shock" boils down to semantics, but I would heartily disagree with much of what was said above. The shock described does rupture some organs, vessles, etc., and it is usually the loss of blood / fluids associated with this disruption that ultimately kills. On some occassions, the shock results in a temporary or even permenant disruption of the CNS, producing some level of paralysis and the animal drops on the spot. In most cases, however, the animal dies from eventual blood loss or disruption of the circulatory system. It is the result of the shock which kills, not the shock itself.
The goal in my mind is not to necessarily drop the animal on the spot, but to create a wound chanel which will ensure destruction of vital organs regardless of the shot angle presented. Use a bullet with heavy enough construction to break the larger bones in the intended quarry, and if you are lucky enough to make a heart shot without striking any bone, you will still have success.
Bill
I believe the 140 Sierras are too light and soft for elk. Eventually you will have a problem. Use a bullet with heavier construction.
A lot of the discussion above about "shock" boils down to semantics, but I would heartily disagree with much of what was said above. The shock described does rupture some organs, vessles, etc., and it is usually the loss of blood / fluids associated with this disruption that ultimately kills. On some occassions, the shock results in a temporary or even permenant disruption of the CNS, producing some level of paralysis and the animal drops on the spot. In most cases, however, the animal dies from eventual blood loss or disruption of the circulatory system. It is the result of the shock which kills, not the shock itself.
The goal in my mind is not to necessarily drop the animal on the spot, but to create a wound chanel which will ensure destruction of vital organs regardless of the shot angle presented. Use a bullet with heavy enough construction to break the larger bones in the intended quarry, and if you are lucky enough to make a heart shot without striking any bone, you will still have success.
Bill
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AZWALKER
Guest
Great discussion and you guys are more than welcome to your opinions. No doubt that good bullet construction is vital for large game animals such as elk. But I also think that bullet construction and placement is far more improtant than bullet weight.
As far as the shock versus pass through argument. What I am refering to is uneducated hunters that are talking about bullets pass through as if they were speaking of the way an arrow passes through. Like that is the ultimate goal. Two completely different things. Bullets kill through shock... and yes... subsiquent bloodloss (I figured that would go without saying). Arrows kill by cutting that causes bloodloss. Having an exit wound with a bullet means that not all of the KE was expended inside the animal. You cannot argue that. I personally would want all 1500 to 2000 ft lbs of KE completely expended inside the animals.
sigboy66 said:
"Hydrostatic shock does kill. Basically if you hit an organ that is full of fluid, like the heart it will explode. It will also push blood back through the system with enough force to explode some major blood vessels. This will kill an animal almost instantly. But if you hit the lungs, the lungs are mostly full of air. There is not hydrostatic shock, but the lungs are also full of big blood vessels. A double lung shot usually won't instantly kill the animal instantly, but will bleed an amimal out really quick and cut off thier oxygen. they will usually go down in under 20 seconds with this type of hit.
It is really all about shot placement. Hit the spine and you will pole ax an animal. It may or may not kill them but will stop them dead in thier tracks."
Very well put!
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
As far as the shock versus pass through argument. What I am refering to is uneducated hunters that are talking about bullets pass through as if they were speaking of the way an arrow passes through. Like that is the ultimate goal. Two completely different things. Bullets kill through shock... and yes... subsiquent bloodloss (I figured that would go without saying). Arrows kill by cutting that causes bloodloss. Having an exit wound with a bullet means that not all of the KE was expended inside the animal. You cannot argue that. I personally would want all 1500 to 2000 ft lbs of KE completely expended inside the animals.
sigboy66 said:
"Hydrostatic shock does kill. Basically if you hit an organ that is full of fluid, like the heart it will explode. It will also push blood back through the system with enough force to explode some major blood vessels. This will kill an animal almost instantly. But if you hit the lungs, the lungs are mostly full of air. There is not hydrostatic shock, but the lungs are also full of big blood vessels. A double lung shot usually won't instantly kill the animal instantly, but will bleed an amimal out really quick and cut off thier oxygen. they will usually go down in under 20 seconds with this type of hit.
It is really all about shot placement. Hit the spine and you will pole ax an animal. It may or may not kill them but will stop them dead in thier tracks."
Very well put!
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
When I mentioned hydrostatic shock I also felt that it would be common knowledge that it, in combination with bleedout, is what finishes an animal off. Actually, the perfect bullet will expend all it's energy in the animal and just break the far side hide and drop out in a perfect world. We all know that seldom happens, but when you go to clean an animal and find that bullet bulging the skin on the far side from the entry, that is about as close as you will come to not finding the bullet on a passthrough!
RELH
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I do not buy into the idea that a great bullet is one that stops short of exiting the animal by lodging next to the far side of the skin and expending it's intire energy in the animal.
I prefer my bullet to expand enough to cause more internal damage, but stay together to create a larger exit wound to allow bleed out.
The difference in energy would not fill a teacup between the two shots. I have hit deer and other animals, where the bullet blew off the top of the heart and have those animals go from 30 yards to 200 yards.
The one that went 200 yards was in dense sagebrush and the only way we found that deer was by the blood trail dropped from the exit wound. when I field dressed the deer, I saw that the top of the heart had been hit and several major blood arteries had been blown in two.
The last 50 yards the bleeding had stopped to just a few drops on patches of snow. If that bullet had not exited, we would have had a very good chance of losing that deer to lack of a good blood trail. Most intrance wounds will close up enough to not leave a good blood trail due to the smaller size of the intrance wound as compared to a exit size wound.
RELH
I prefer my bullet to expand enough to cause more internal damage, but stay together to create a larger exit wound to allow bleed out.
The difference in energy would not fill a teacup between the two shots. I have hit deer and other animals, where the bullet blew off the top of the heart and have those animals go from 30 yards to 200 yards.
The one that went 200 yards was in dense sagebrush and the only way we found that deer was by the blood trail dropped from the exit wound. when I field dressed the deer, I saw that the top of the heart had been hit and several major blood arteries had been blown in two.
The last 50 yards the bleeding had stopped to just a few drops on patches of snow. If that bullet had not exited, we would have had a very good chance of losing that deer to lack of a good blood trail. Most intrance wounds will close up enough to not leave a good blood trail due to the smaller size of the intrance wound as compared to a exit size wound.
RELH
sageadvice
Long Time Member
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Booner, everybody has a bad day once in awhile. I've had my share too!
You asked, "have you shot deer sized game with them at close distance?"
My wyoming antelope 2009 was only about 150 yds away. i hit him low and the .277 140 gr AB bullet @ 3280 FPS passed right under his heart with a 1 1/2 hole going in and something bigger than a hole going out. The rest, 2 muley bucks and another lope were 250, 327, and 460 yards, the bullets did great as advertised but not really good info for your question.
BTW guys, I'm pretty bad color blind. The last thing i want is for my shot bucks to be running off!
Joey
You asked, "have you shot deer sized game with them at close distance?"
My wyoming antelope 2009 was only about 150 yds away. i hit him low and the .277 140 gr AB bullet @ 3280 FPS passed right under his heart with a 1 1/2 hole going in and something bigger than a hole going out. The rest, 2 muley bucks and another lope were 250, 327, and 460 yards, the bullets did great as advertised but not really good info for your question.
BTW guys, I'm pretty bad color blind. The last thing i want is for my shot bucks to be running off!
Joey
I gotta admit, I'm sold on ABs also. They are a good balance between expansion and penetration. Even at the lowly 2900 fps I keep my reloads they hit hard and generally pass through. Of course I'm from the Elmer Keith school moreso than the O'Conner line of thought. I think Joey sat in the from row of Jack's class. 
That we both like the same bullet says something.
That we both like the same bullet says something.
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AZWALKER
Guest
"I prefer my bullet to expand enough to cause more internal damage, but stay together to create a larger exit wound to allow bleed out."
Bleedout is bleedout, whether it happens inside or out. If you're happy with the results you get awsome. Keep at it brother. If you like big long blood trails, more power to you. But... which scenerio creates more anchoring shock? A pass through or a shot where the bullet is next to the offside hide? You provided one example of a shot that was a pass through, blew the top of the heart apart and the animal went 200 yds. I think you made my point for me. Let me give you one. On my first Elk hunt I shot a bull at 275 yds with a 30-06. I was shooting a factory 150 grain BTSP. I hit the bull low behind the shoulder. He lifted his onside leg, hopped twice and fell over dead. When I say dead, he didn't even kick. After cleaning him up I found the heart blown in half and the bullet in the skin of offside armpit. Let me give you another one. My first Antelope hunt. 216 yds, 30-06, 150 gr balistic tip (can't remember the build but it was a partition) First shot aiming behind the shoulder. Antelope runs 200 yds and stops... and stands there. Second shot, goat flinches and takes off limping on his front left another 100 yds. Stands there for 10 seconds and falls dead. I thought for sure I missed bad and gut shot the first one. Nope, get to him and the very front of his left shoulder has a big flesh wound and theres on hole behind his shoulder. Long story shor I hit fine on the first shot. Hit the very top of the heart and left an exit wound the size of a golf ball. The second shot was bad and forward. My fault for picking the wrong bullet with control expansion but you get the point. I have a few more personal examples if you like but its late and i gotta work.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
Bleedout is bleedout, whether it happens inside or out. If you're happy with the results you get awsome. Keep at it brother. If you like big long blood trails, more power to you. But... which scenerio creates more anchoring shock? A pass through or a shot where the bullet is next to the offside hide? You provided one example of a shot that was a pass through, blew the top of the heart apart and the animal went 200 yds. I think you made my point for me. Let me give you one. On my first Elk hunt I shot a bull at 275 yds with a 30-06. I was shooting a factory 150 grain BTSP. I hit the bull low behind the shoulder. He lifted his onside leg, hopped twice and fell over dead. When I say dead, he didn't even kick. After cleaning him up I found the heart blown in half and the bullet in the skin of offside armpit. Let me give you another one. My first Antelope hunt. 216 yds, 30-06, 150 gr balistic tip (can't remember the build but it was a partition) First shot aiming behind the shoulder. Antelope runs 200 yds and stops... and stands there. Second shot, goat flinches and takes off limping on his front left another 100 yds. Stands there for 10 seconds and falls dead. I thought for sure I missed bad and gut shot the first one. Nope, get to him and the very front of his left shoulder has a big flesh wound and theres on hole behind his shoulder. Long story shor I hit fine on the first shot. Hit the very top of the heart and left an exit wound the size of a golf ball. The second shot was bad and forward. My fault for picking the wrong bullet with control expansion but you get the point. I have a few more personal examples if you like but its late and i gotta work.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
RELH
Long Time Member
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It is a good thing you did not hit that bull elk on the shoulder bone at 275 yards or that perfect shot would have turned into a good possibilty of losing that elk after a long tracking session.
As for your antelope shot, you claim in one sentence to using a 150 gr. ballistic tip, then in the next you say it is a "Partition". Big world of difference between those two bullets. Are you getting your facts wrong?
Bottom line, you use what you want and I will do the same. I have never lost a animal while using the Nosler Partition during 30 years of hunting, and do not need to fix anything that is not working perfect so far.
RELH
As for your antelope shot, you claim in one sentence to using a 150 gr. ballistic tip, then in the next you say it is a "Partition". Big world of difference between those two bullets. Are you getting your facts wrong?
Bottom line, you use what you want and I will do the same. I have never lost a animal while using the Nosler Partition during 30 years of hunting, and do not need to fix anything that is not working perfect so far.
RELH
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AZWALKER
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-11 AT 12:58PM (MST)[p]Marine Corps rifle expert 4 years straight, I hit what I'm aiming at. And I taught other Marines how to shoot... You need some help let me know! If I would have hit that bull in the shoulder he woukd havw plowed dirt. A bull probably won't go far with busted scapula. As far as the bullet goes I just remember it was somekind of controlled expansion bullet and a very poor choice. I have no problem agreeing to disagree. Have a great fall and good luck.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
Zeke
Long Time Member
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Oh my, the egos!
The Ballistic tip is NOT a controlled expansion bullet. It's a freakin' exploder in calibers above .284". Also, pronghorn are some of the toughest critters to anchor in their tracks. They're dead with 1 shot but just don't know it. It's not the bullet choice if they don't go right down. It's their nature. Those who have killed a bunch of them will have the same story to tell.
Now, what were we talking about again?
Zeke
The Ballistic tip is NOT a controlled expansion bullet. It's a freakin' exploder in calibers above .284". Also, pronghorn are some of the toughest critters to anchor in their tracks. They're dead with 1 shot but just don't know it. It's not the bullet choice if they don't go right down. It's their nature. Those who have killed a bunch of them will have the same story to tell.
Now, what were we talking about again?
Zeke
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booner76
Guest
+1 Zeke. well said.
booner
booner
RELH
Long Time Member
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Zeke, you are right about the ballistic tip being a very light jacket explosive type bullet, the former marine expert did not know that or he would not have tried to pass it off as a controlled expansion bullet as the partition bullet is.
Azwalker, U.S. Army expert for three years. During basic training,1965, placed #2 out of company of over 500. Was pulled out of other training by D.I. to instruct about 20 basic trainees that were going to BOLO on rifle course. After one week of instruction, no one failed rifle course.
Ex LEO SWATT sniper, certified by CA. Dept of Justice as pistol, rifle,& shotgun instructor. Active pistol competive shooter since 1978 as distinguised master. Still shoot IDPA matches every month and still taking home the medals.
Do not give me the bull that you never miss on occassion, we all do one time or another. Have a nice day!
RELH
Azwalker, U.S. Army expert for three years. During basic training,1965, placed #2 out of company of over 500. Was pulled out of other training by D.I. to instruct about 20 basic trainees that were going to BOLO on rifle course. After one week of instruction, no one failed rifle course.
Ex LEO SWATT sniper, certified by CA. Dept of Justice as pistol, rifle,& shotgun instructor. Active pistol competive shooter since 1978 as distinguised master. Still shoot IDPA matches every month and still taking home the medals.
Do not give me the bull that you never miss on occassion, we all do one time or another. Have a nice day!
RELH
sageadvice
Long Time Member
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Me? I'm just an old squirrel shooter, they called me head shot going way back, who happens to have royally screwed up the day of a good number of fair bucks. Though i've came away with the metal at a few shoots, i prefer to claim fame as a hunter that likes to shoot rather than the other way around.
After having been directly involved in literally hundreds of big game animals being taken, if interested in exactly what seems to put them down the best, it's not too difficult considering my interests in ballistics, cartridges, and hunting.
AZ, these bullets we speak of are not the FMJ that you kinda make them out to be. They bust up stuff, any stuff, on their merry way and expend major energy along the wound channel as they pass through. Give me a bullet that leaves a channel that you can easily stick a broomstick thru and a guy on each side can grab ahold of to help remove said critter from the field. I'm joking of course but you had to laugh at us in your original comment so i'll laugh back not at but with you.
Results are what really matters and if you are happy with yours...
Joey
After having been directly involved in literally hundreds of big game animals being taken, if interested in exactly what seems to put them down the best, it's not too difficult considering my interests in ballistics, cartridges, and hunting.
AZ, these bullets we speak of are not the FMJ that you kinda make them out to be. They bust up stuff, any stuff, on their merry way and expend major energy along the wound channel as they pass through. Give me a bullet that leaves a channel that you can easily stick a broomstick thru and a guy on each side can grab ahold of to help remove said critter from the field. I'm joking of course but you had to laugh at us in your original comment so i'll laugh back not at but with you.
Results are what really matters and if you are happy with yours...
Joey
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AZWALKER
Guest
LMAO, I guess its hard to show some tounge in cheek through posts but thats ok. I hope I didn't offend you RELH. Sounds like you have your poop in a group with your credentials. I wish I would have kept up with competative shooting when I got out. I'm not at all above learning something. We could go back and forth about training. Besides, we all know Marines are better trained and well... just tougher!!!
"the former marine expert did not know that or he would not have tried to pass it off as a controlled expansion bullet as the partition bullet is"
Well at least you got the former part right and didn't say EX, once a Marine always a Marine.
As I explained it was a typo. I also said twice it was a poor choice for Antelope. IT WAS NOT A BALLISTIC TIP. I was thinking about a muley buck I neck shot a year later. Take note of the time on that post and you'll see it was late. I do know the difference and I thought I made that clear in my last post. If you want to debate I'm all in but at least read my entire post.
I simply made a comment as to what I think does more damage and I guess I ruffled some feathers.
To the author of this thread: (LMAO)
I think your brother is fine as to the bullet weight. I would go with a better constructed bullet for Elk though. I have found with a factory load it hard to beat Hornady. Gmx would be a great choice in a 139 grain bullet.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
"the former marine expert did not know that or he would not have tried to pass it off as a controlled expansion bullet as the partition bullet is"
Well at least you got the former part right and didn't say EX, once a Marine always a Marine.
As I explained it was a typo. I also said twice it was a poor choice for Antelope. IT WAS NOT A BALLISTIC TIP. I was thinking about a muley buck I neck shot a year later. Take note of the time on that post and you'll see it was late. I do know the difference and I thought I made that clear in my last post. If you want to debate I'm all in but at least read my entire post.
I simply made a comment as to what I think does more damage and I guess I ruffled some feathers.
To the author of this thread: (LMAO)
I think your brother is fine as to the bullet weight. I would go with a better constructed bullet for Elk though. I have found with a factory load it hard to beat Hornady. Gmx would be a great choice in a 139 grain bullet.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
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LongRangeBangin
Guest
Threads like this makes me wonder how in the hell the native americans and early settlers ever survived ;-)
RELH
Long Time Member
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Longrange banging, they didn't do too well together. The early settlers shot the crap out of the native americans so they could claim their hunting grounds. They even used controlled expansion bullets called ball and minie shot at black powder velocity.
AZ. You jarheads are all the same. Amazing what those Gyrene drill instructors instilled in your dense nogins. Joking aside, I have known many Marines and former marines and I have a lot of respect for them and the job they did. Just like to jerk their chains for the sake of a good argument.
RELH
AZ. You jarheads are all the same. Amazing what those Gyrene drill instructors instilled in your dense nogins. Joking aside, I have known many Marines and former marines and I have a lot of respect for them and the job they did. Just like to jerk their chains for the sake of a good argument.
RELH
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AZWALKER
Guest
I think it was more brainwashing than instilling. I still eat too fast and never quit when I know I should. Still the most fun I've ever had though. Well when I was on the range anyway, about 1/4 of my enlistment. Got to meet some amazing guys. I was trained/coached by a guy named Mario Lazoya. He was a Gunny when I was in. He was a 2 time pistol national champion and 1 time rifle national champion. Man that guy taught me alot. He never taught me the difference between a ballistic tip and a partition though... lol.
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
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booner76
Guest
I wont brag on myself, but may I brag on my great, great grandfather?
He used to shoot at "turkey shoot's" in the 1900's.
He tied with a guy once and they broke the tie by having some poor shmuck step off 20 paces, then throw charcoal briqets in the air, then the boy's shot them till they missed.
Kinda the same layout as today's trap shooter's.
Only difference.......they used 22 short's!!!
Grandpa took second place one time by breaking 99 strait.
I guess he choked on number 100, guess I am a chip off the old block. LOL
booner.
He used to shoot at "turkey shoot's" in the 1900's.
He tied with a guy once and they broke the tie by having some poor shmuck step off 20 paces, then throw charcoal briqets in the air, then the boy's shot them till they missed.
Kinda the same layout as today's trap shooter's.
Only difference.......they used 22 short's!!!
Grandpa took second place one time by breaking 99 strait.
I guess he choked on number 100, guess I am a chip off the old block. LOL
booner.
