Federal vs State

slamdunk

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I'm on the fence whether it's better to have State managed government or federal for our public lands.

State level scares me because Cox will sell it all to developers and destroy even more valuable winter range, and yet Feds won't let us take care of our own forest lands and help curb the intensity of wildfires.

Insight please?
 
The state management so far has led to less management for federal.
Congress allocates money for forest/BLM management. It is our senators and representatives that don't allocate enough money for the Feds to manage correctly.
But I'm open to suggestions that the Feds would screw it up even if well funded.
I'm also opened minded enough to believe the state in no way could take over managing the public lands without totally screwing it up either.
Of the two I'll take Federal. It takes a lot more effort to turn the boat.
 
The state management so far has led to less management for federal.
Congress allocates money for forest/BLM management. It is our senators and representatives that don't allocate enough money for the Feds to manage correctly.
But I'm open to suggestions that the Feds would screw it up even if well funded.
I'm also opened minded enough to believe the state in no way could take over managing the public lands without totally screwing it up either.
Of the two I'll take Federal. It takes a lot more effort to turn the boat.
More money don't fix miss managment.
 
I have been opposed to seeing the Federal Government from turning it over to the State of Utah. I have changed my mine because I believe there is a movement by many in the Federal Government to eventually control all of food production and all the land, both public and private, like other socialist/communist counties have done.

There a changes at the Federal level, I’m very concerned about. That’s not to say I trust the State completely either.

I’m caught between a rock and a hard place and it hurts.

I love public land hunting/fishing/accessing and the Multiple Use concept but I value freedom and our Countries traditional values more than I value my personal passion/interests.
 
The state’s own study they commissioned talked about selling/leasing the land to cover the costs of managing lands if they were turned over to the state. So this is not just a fear, it’s actually part of their plan.

However, whether there is a house on it or a solar panel field, what is the difference to me? Both are trying to screw me. One or the other, or a combination of both, will likely succeed.

I posted this elsewhere a while back, but I think it’s worth reiterating here again. The west will be won again, but this time they won’t be leaving anything for the peasants. Enjoy it while you can fellas. Some on this forum may live to see the day where vast open public lands of today are simply no longer there.
 
Seeing as the Legislature already passed a bill that contains how they can sell the lands if they were to gain title, I believe Federal is better. Could the federal gov't sell it? Maybe, but that is very doubtful.


Lines 294+ - may require special permits to hunt and would supersede the Wildlife Board- could public lands become something like a CWMU to generate funds?

Lines 469+ - The director may sell parcels under 200 acres with no over sight. Selling over 200 acres would require approval, but it could still be sold.

Vanilla makes a good point about solar farms and other leases, uses. It is tough wither way, but the final sale of lands is a bigger issue to me.
 
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I prefer the feds for the reasons mentioned above.

To your one point, Fire is not the issue. Our forests have been mismanaged so badly for decades we have millions of acres of 30 years worth of deadfall that any fire at this point is going to devastating. Fire should cleans the forest floor and burn itself out. Now days it leaves a path of scorched earth that takes a year or two to recover but it will.

I say let it burn and let’s manage better into the future. Nothing better for wildlife than a recovery burn area.
 
I prefer the feds for the reasons mentioned above.

To your one point, Fire is not the issue. Our forests have been mismanaged so badly for decades we have millions of acres of 30 years worth of deadfall that any fire at this point is going to devastating. Fire should cleans the forest floor and burn itself out. Now days it leaves a path of scorched earth that takes a year or two to recover but it will.

I say let it burn and let’s manage better into the future. Nothing better for wildlife than a recovery burn area.
I partially agree with fires, but I've also see them return with with noxious weeds like cheatgrass which can be devastating in itself.
 
The hoops the Federal agencies have to jump through regarding management can be a nightmare.
But state control will not alleviate those same hoops.
A pipe dream to think they can end run things like NEPA.
 
As Valuable As Timber Is!

They Coulda Timbered A Bunch Of It!

And I'm Talkin Before The Beetles Showed Up!

They Had The Beetles In A Fairly Small Area & Should Have Burnt Them!

But The USFS Decided We Gotta Let It Take It's Natural Way!

Beetle Killed Timber Is F'N JUNK!

It Doesn't Even Make 1/2 Assed Firewood!

But If You Get Enough Of It Dried Out It Makes A Nice Forest Fire!

Then HOT Burns Are NOT Good!

Nothing Grows Back!

The Erosion!

No Game!

ETC!

ETC!

ETC!
 
As Valuable As Timber Is!

They Coulda Timbered A Bunch Of It!

And I'm Talkin Before The Beetles Showed Up!

They Had The Beetles In A Fairly Small Area & Should Have Burnt Them!

But The USFS Decided We Gotta Let It Take It's Natural Way!

Beetle Killed Timber Is F'N JUNK!

It Doesn't Even Make 1/2 Assed Firewood!

But If You Get Enough Of It Dried Out It Makes A Nice Forest Fire!

Then HOT Burns Are NOT Good!

Nothing Grows Back!

The Erosion!

No Game!

ETC!

ETC!

ETC!
I was in Dubois about a month ago.
The beetle infestation in that forest is absolutely sickening from there to almost Jackson.
Sad sad sad 😔
 
As Valuable As Timber Is!

They Coulda Timbered A Bunch Of It!

And I'm Talkin Before The Beetles Showed Up!

They Had The Beetles In A Fairly Small Area & Should Have Burnt Them!

But The USFS Decided We Gotta Let It Take It's Natural Way!

Beetle Killed Timber Is F'N JUNK!

It Doesn't Even Make 1/2 Assed Firewood!

But If You Get Enough Of It Dried Out It Makes A Nice Forest Fire!

Then HOT Burns Are NOT Good!

Nothing Grows Back!

The Erosion!

No Game!

ETC!

ETC!

ETC!
Have you ever fought a fire or been involved in a prescribed burn..lol. alot of experts on this thread. Laughing my ass off.
 
I Have Helped Fight A Couple Fires!

No They Were Not Forest Fires!

The One I Rigged Up A Hose & Was Spraying The Side Of A Gals House,It Was So F'N Hot Smoke Was Rolling Off The Wood Siding With 2 Big Propane Tanks Nearby!

Ya!

Not Smart I Know!

FIGHTING FIRES AKA Getting People To SAFETY For The Most Part!
 
As Valuable As Timber Is!

They Coulda Timbered A Bunch Of It!

And I'm Talkin Before The Beetles Showed Up!

They Had The Beetles In A Fairly Small Area & Should Have Burnt Them!

But The USFS Decided We Gotta Let It Take It's Natural Way!

Beetle Killed Timber Is F'N JUNK!

It Doesn't Even Make 1/2 Assed Firewood!

I logged from the time I was 14 till I was about 29, minus 4 years of college, then I ran a log home company till 2008 when the housing market crashed. There was a lot of high quality timber on this mountain in the 80's. We preferred standing dead beetle kill. Then the tree huggers started getting established in the management of USFS. As the timber started to rot, the tree huggers started limiting sales and increasing regulations. In fact, we switched to importing logs from Canada for about the last 5 years I was in business. This forest is worthless now. Too late. May as well burn it all.
 
Utah gets millions in PILT payments for federal ground in the state. How would they make that up? Sell
The PILT payments don’t amount to a hill of beans. If the Feds want to keep federal land they need to raise the payment to the States and paid an equivalent amount to what the State tax payer would pay to the State.

If the Federal Governments (aka the people of the United States) wants to keep these lands public, the public (aka, you and I ) need to pay up the same amounts of money to the State as private land owners pay.

If, we the public, ( all the public) of the entire country would do that, every year, the States could live without selling our public lands.

One way or the other, to hell with the pittance we get from PILT.
 
I Have Helped Fight A Couple Fires!

No They Were Not Forest Fires!

The One I Rigged Up A Hose & Was Spraying The Side Of A Gals House,It Was So F'N Hot Smoke Was Rolling Off The Wood Siding With 2 Big Propane Tanks Nearby!

Ya!

Not Smart I Know!

FIGHTING FIRES AKA Getting People To SAFETY For The Most Part!
I wonder if those fires you helped fight were the same ones I helped start😆
 
In fairness, the FS/BLM knows how to manage.

SUWA, Western Watershed, and a few dozen others stop that.

Get lawyers and the 9th circuit out of land management, the FS/BLM will be just fine.

Wait until the bill for the yellowlake fire is totaled, then ask Mike Shultz or Mike Lee how Utah would pay for it.

Years back when we burned from Indianola to Mapleton, the cost was close to $90 million if I remember correctly.

I asked Rob Bishop, the Gov, Mike Lee, Mitt Romney what their plan was to pay for such things if the state owned the land.

I got a nice form letter from Pierre about his "commitment" to public land🙄

Not a peep from the others
 
The payments are based partially on the population of the County. The least populated counties where most of the land is should receive the most PILT money.

Screenshot 2024-10-16 092713.png
 
A PILM amount of 50 million is a drop in the large bucket.

The Federal government (you and I) own 70% of the State of Utah. We (the Federal tax payer) pay the State of Utah 50 million dollars a year in the government’s version of a Property Tax…… from all citizens in the country. As property owners in Utah we pay Utah 4.7 billion in property taxes……….. and we own only 30% of the property. The Feds (you and I) own more than twice as much as Utah’s private land owners. Yet, the Utah property owners are paying 99% and we get 1% from the Federal government.

50 million divided by 4.7 billion = 49 million which is 1.06% of the total property taxes paid to the State of Utah. 59% of that 4.7 million goes to the States public schools to educate our children.

That’s the rub gentlemen. As a Federal property owner, like the rest of you, I’d rather pay higher Federal taxes and have the government pay the western States that extra tax revenue to those western States. I would rather we do that than have those lands sold to individuals, who will then pay the property tax on them.

One way or the other, something has going to give because these western States populations are exploding and the moneys going to come from one place or the other.

I have met with numerous Utah State Congressmen and Senators over the last 25 years about pushing for a higher PILM ……….. by pushing for higher Federal taxes, rather than sell Utah’s public lands to the private sector……….. not one of them has made the slightest effort.

At age 77, it’s someone else’s turn to try or, kiss goodbye to your public access future.
 
lumpy is correct. PILT does help a little, but it’s peanuts compared to what would happen if the lands were sold.

My resolution going forward from today is that I will enjoy our public lands more than I have been recently, because there is a good chance those opportunities are going away sometime in the not too distant future. At least I’ll have my memories to show for it.
 
If you want to see what Utah will do with the land if the State takes over, just hop on KSL Classifieds.
Go to Real Estate ‘Investment Properties’.
Check out all the State properties up for highest bidder.
 
Of course they will. Is anybody saying they won’t?

And……. It’s not the money they’ll get from the sale they care about. That money will get spent in the blink of an eye. It’s the continual property tax revenue the State will recieve every year, from now to eternity. And when was the last time your property taxes ever went down. As the value of private property goes up, so do the tax revenues.

On the other had, if the Federal government owns it, they can control the States income, they can control what the land is used for, or not. How do like our over crowded acres of mustangs. How do you like the Feds controlling every drop of rain/snow water run off, how do you like government leases to wealthy land owners, for a dollar and a dime to graze their livestock, how do you like government locking up more and more Federal land for more parks.

In some countries, the government tells private land owners what plants they can grow and what price they can charge for the product. Are we headed there, with a government determined to “do what they believe is best for the whole population…… rather than allow free enterprise to establish what’s best to grow and decide what it can be sold for?

If you want to learn how this stuff has worked, in other counties, read Robert Michener’s book Poland and learn what really brought the USSR to its knees. (Hint: it was a government controlled economy and food production or the lack there of, in Poland.)

We have gotten ourselves boxed in, just as Vanilla has said.
 
Solar fields is not the last thing the Feds want to do with our public lands.

Like I said, this public land control, in the future, is a pick your poison choice, as far as us Multiple Use outdoors people are concerned.

We’re going to get screwed……. regardless of whose side we support.

 
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