Worst Managed State For Big Game

New Mexico New Mexico New Mexico New Mexico New Mexico

(AZ running a close 2nd)
 
Out of curiosity can you post why you feel the states are poorly managed. I have only hunted one state so I don't have any others to compare to. Az seems fine to me.
 
I am curious as well about everyones reason why a particular state is bad. I have lived in AZ for 6 years now and think (from my viewpoint) that the state has done some pretty good things but really would like to here the bad things so we can try and get it fixed.........thanks...... Allen Taylor......
 
New Mexico...
Because we have not draw for Deer.. It is crazy out there... the poor deer don't have a chance... Also, New Mexico has these landowner tags that can be unit wide... So ranches can sell the tags and not even let the buyers hunt the ranch...
 
Northern Arizona has a major chute plane problem! But as far as the worst managed states I think it comes down to what species of big game we're talking about. If it is deer then I would have to say Utah because they still give out way too many rifle tags and guys ride their ATV's all over the tops of the mountains. Then I would have to say New Mexico because their deer herd as far as numbers and big bucks have really declined and their best deer unit is all private land. Then Idaho because trying to understand their proclamation/regulations and what you need to do to actually put in isn't worth the hassle. On the other side maybe Utah ought to make their proclamation a little harder to understand so we don't have so many applications to increase our chance's of drawing. As far as I know Utah is the only state that come's right out and spells it out for everyone. Example, here are our premium units for deer and you better all put in for them. Don't be afraid of letting people conduct their own research of which unit is the best to apply for. I also think we need to close down some more units that comprise of alot of private land so landowners will love us because they are making all the money on the big bucks we are growing. Maybe we can cut the public out of it completely and issue tons of landowner and CWMU tags. Wouldn't that be great. What a joke!
 
Hey Allen...based on my limited experience up on the Kaibab...having unlimited bowhunter access to a so-called "trophy" area is misleading to out-of-state hunters. When I was there for the late mz hunt (12a east, I think) it was tough to find ANY bucks for a week. And believe me, we worked hard. It's no wonder when thousands of bowhunters were chasing the deer around a few weeks earlier...forcing most of them to be nocturnal or just out of the area altogether.
 
What do you consider as a 'well managed' state? More trophies? More tags? More animals?
Colorado does so-so, I think they could do alot better. OF course I've never hunted in any other states so I can't compare.
 
Too many indian treaties huh ? should I try to enlighten a dimwitted response? why bother a bigot is a bigot is a bigot. Kingfish I used to have a high opinion of you until now.
 
Hawk,

I don't beleive kingfish was making a bigot response. Treaties do make it much more difficult to manage big game and fish.
 
How can you summise from that one statement that King Fish is a bigot. For all you know the he could be an Indian. Jeez lighten up.


"We must HUNT"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-04 AT 02:05PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-04 AT 02:02?PM (MST)

washington. the spike only elk season makes it good for the big bulls to pass down their genes but what happens when all the big bulls die of old age? seeing a spike elk in some areas is very rare. on the west side in an area open to the indians i found elk skulls with the antlers cut off. the succsess rate for modern firearm deer is like 7%. i think they just want you to buy a tag but they dont want you to shoot a deer.
 
I am not sure what Kingfish is referring too but washington manages for money not for the herd. For rifle elk hunters all you get is a spike only hunt inless you draw one of the few any bull tags. Deer hunting we have a million people for few spots with good deer. middle of october way to hot. I think the indian treaty stuff he may be referring too might be something i see over here in the entiat. We ahve a couple indian guys that kill monster bulls 5 or 6 a year and then wait till january and go hunt our monster bucks that have migrated down and shoot the biggest ones they can find. last winter in one truck there were 3 bucks that went from 28 to 32 inches wide. this are big heavy bucks. And that is not right but nobody can touch him because it is his hunting grounds. couple guys give all the rest a bad rap. Oh and he never shoots does or cows. always big bulls or monster bucks.

Garrett
 
Hawk,
You are quick to defend your (indian) rights but you have to admit it is not working. I don't know what state your from but the indian treaties in Washington give to much power to a small amount of people. The power is abused my a few but enough of them that it is damaging the resource. If you gave that much power to my race (white)there would be a lot of low lifes that would take advantage of the situation also. It has got to change. I wish we could make a tribe decide on gambling, tobacco, and gasoline rights verses hunting and fishing rights. The state gives 50% of the fish and wildlife to the indians. They hunt elk that were not even native in some areas until the 1930's and shoot the crap out of the herd yet a white guy can't even have a season because the herd is down. 50% of 0 is 0 in the math classes I took in school. I am not racist at all. I just think in this day and age we should all play by the same rule book. The subsistence hunting and fishing is gone for good and the government needs to realize it.
Shane
 
Hawk33 get over yourself!
Yes, there are too many treaties! One is too many. As far as calling someone biggoted, look at your own. If you think that you and the rest of the tribes should be entitled to any benefits that are not allowed to any other U.S. citizen, then you are the predudice one. Oh, that is right, the treaty tribes are not truly concidered as U.S. citizens. No one should recieve special treatment just because of their ethnicity, place of origin or any other reason. Until the treaties are dissolved and the tribes are to follow the laws and regulations that the rest of us have to, there will always be animosity between the groups.
Oh, and dont give me the tired old b.s. about my ancestors. I am tired of having to pay for the actions of people that lived hundreds of years ago. I have never shot an Indian or owned a slave. I have never met anyone that has, and neither have you!
It is time to get over the past.
I have said this before, but my #1 hunting buddy is a Squaxin Tribal member. He feels the same as I do and to the point of moving 400 miles away from his tribe to get away from all of the b.s.! He is allowed special hunting and fishing rights, but he choses to buy all of his tags & liscences. He also will only hunt & fish during public seasons.
Ok, enough of my horse sh!t.
Eric
 
I don't think it's fair to say Washington is the worst managed state for big game. Too many roads? Really depends on where you are hunting. Many areas that were open in the past are now gated, especially the timber company lands. Seasons are too short and at a time of year that isn't the easiest time to hunt? Well, that is how the state is able to have unlimited over-the-counter tags so everbody who wants to hunt can hunt. How would some of you prefer our big game be managed? The WDFW is only trying to make everybody happy while at the same time protecting our wildlife from over harvest. What do you guys want...a deer season that falls during the peak of the rut? While that would make for some great hunting, I don't think there would be many deer left after a couple years of that. The other option is hunting by permit only (no over-the-counter tags.) This is what I would prefer, but too many hunters would complain if they couldn't hunt every single year. The spike elk general season in eastern Wa. is the same type of thing. It allows everybody to hunt elk every year, but keeps the bull to cow ratios up where they need to be for a healthy herd. If you apply for the right permits, you will be able to hunt branch antler bulls every couple years. I think many hunters are just too selfish and what they consider "good management" is simply the type of management that enables them to hunt whatever they want whenever they want. You have to remember, Washington has the highest population of any western state other then California. The WDFW does not have an easy job and I don't think we should be too critical of them. However, I do wish they'd do something about those damn indians! :)
 
Every game department has a huge task. They have to balance what is best for hunters and game animals. They have to deal with several factors completely out of their control like droughts, hard winters, initiatives that raise predetor populations, smaller budgets and human encroachment on winter ranges. All of this while being slammed by every hunting group for not making them completely satisfied. No easy task if you ask me.

Mike Henne
 
Utah.
It used to be where on an archery hunt you could go days without seeing a single human, now there is one in every draw, whether they are hunting or not.
Rifle hunting in utah has always been that way as long as I can remember. Every rifle hunt the whole state it seems like heads to the hills and hunts. You can see an orange vest in nearly every draw.
Utah seriously needs to do somthing about this, whether it be like nevada did and make it a draw instead of just handing out tags. It is so simple to draw a non-resident archery tag in Utah it's rediculous. There are some good places for deer hunting but you have to get out and find them on foot. Literally every place immaginable in Utah that I have seen down south is accessable by a quad.



-Cass
 
Love how everyone thinks their state is the worst. Voting along that lines would leave me to say WA, but from the sounds of Utah that place seems worse. WA doesn't have the best hunting but the truth is there are some awesome hunting opportunities in this state, they just take more effort to find and more time to wait (draw hunts).
 
gotta be california. at least in the west. look at what mt. lions are doing to the state!! they have some bear moratorium deal that is screwed up too. restrictive gun laws. too many old hippies. too many greenpeacers that don't like anything. hollywood. you have to have a hunting license to set a mouse trap there. but it's okay for &^@@#$ to get married.
 
I'd say utah and RHL who cares what lions do just look at what the DWR in Utah is doing. Makes those lions look like mice.

Hey guys CAss isn't telling another story on this one.
 
California. How many of you guys travel to Ca to hunt deer? Case closed! I bet that you can count the number of non resident deer tags sold on one hand. A few die hard guys that want a Blacktail species and that's it. I have hunted all over Ca for deer and have never ran into an out of state hunter. Ditto on what RLH said. My 2 cents. Ed F
 
When you consider California's liberal population,it's amazing we can still hunt at all!
It must be an incredibly difficult chore to manage this states wildlife! Hunters represent such a small minority of the states population!
I do think that there are some greenies infiltrating the ranks of F&G,their hands are tied by the treehuggers regarding the mountain lion issue.
However F&G has done a pretty admirable job with Tule and Roosevelt Elk,Desert Bighorns and you can still take B&C caliber Blacktail deer on public ground even with a two buck limit!
California F&G has a new director this year and I hear that he is more in touch with sportsmen as he is one himself.
 
I thought someone would at least mention high fences and corn feeders. Maybe states that allow that sort of thing are well managed................???????? I'm from Wyoming, so I have to admit ignorance on some of these issues. I've never hunted in most of the states you guys mention, so I don't feel too well qualified to answer.
 
I too have to say California, not hunter friendly, mountain lion problems etc. I used to hunt the Eastern Sierra, the "X" zones. It was good hunting for Calif. It progressivly got worse, and now you can't even get a tag.
 
I don't feel that Utah is the worst state, they just put way to much emphasis on Elk, and forget to manage for deer..
Of course, I moved to Northern Wyoming, so they can do whatever they want! My buddies are still finding 170-190 class bucks every year on public land, you just have to put some time into it..
 
I think AZ does a great job except for the archery Kiabab thing. I agree with what was mentioned earlier way to many hunters there. This has been a hot topic for years and at this point the G&F can only make that a draw. They have tried to reduce the number of hunters by moving the season in with the archery elk hunts but that has had little or no effect. If I still lived in AZ I would say close the unit to out of staters or make them draw. The place is just to crowded with all those damn Utah clowns...........By the way what is with 30 inch bucks and his constant crying about chute planes? I know people that have been using regular planes for scouting forever, I dont see anyone crying about that. Its not like they shoot the animals from the plane so whats the problem? Sounds to me like somebody cant afford it and is a little jealous!
 
The archery Kaibab issue will probably be resolved this year and go to a draw. The commission is meeting with the public on many issues and my guess is that there will be a draw. As for the chute plane issue, I doubt the strip area is suffering because of the planes. You can go for days and not see a deer up there, maybe the problem is lack of water and predator control. There are re-location plans in front of the commission and over the next few years I bet we will see herd numbers rise and hunting pressure reduced by tag reductions to help the overall populations increase in set areas. AZ at least listens to the sportsmen and responds............ Allen Taylor......
 
Allen...why is it you always make good points? Im glad to see you step in and make good sense when others dont. This whole chute plane thing is a joke. The AZ G&F have passed regulations on them, so to me its a non issue. I do have a question though, somebody on a different board asked if it was legal to fly wilderness areas, I did'nt know maybe you can answer that one for me. By the way whats the wheather like back home? I'm getting ready for a hell of a snow storm up here!
 
Cali has got to be the worst. To me that is an easy question, if there weren't animals left in the Kaibab or Wasatch, or any other of these "trophy areas", no one would go there. I hear alot of complaining, but I people complaining about management, but I have a sneakin' suspicion it is their facade for animosity against non-resident hunting...just a guess.

Oh, and I too would LOVE to be enlightened Hawk. Not agreeing with current or historic treaties is not synonomous with bigotry.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-04 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]Kingfish- to an extent I can see where you come from but having laid the blame on all tribes in washington with treaties for the shi**y hunting in washington come on.

Yeah there are those that poach in the winter range and even those tribes who are arrogant and flaunt that in everyones face. Those treaties which all of you despise so much were granted by the U.S. govt in return for behing herded onto god forsaken pieces of real estate non of your ancestors wanted at that time those treaties also altered a way of life milleniums old. You yourself have and will never experience anything like this yourself and you should be thankful. Sure you may not get your deer or elk one year and sure you dont get that job you wanted, get turned down for a loan. But that is the absolute most traumatic thing you will have to deal with aside from losing a spouse or loved one. But you can never see life through the eyes of those people that went through this nor can you assume to know what that cultural detachment would feel like.

To hear you all talk you assume that treaty tribes in Wa, sit around all day planning to go out and decimate herds of deer and elk and leave them lay and take only their antlers (wait that's what your people do)I wonder if Washington over allocates tags to generate the allmighty dollar every one seems to worship? Could that factor in to the negative herd numbers in that state as well as the poaching (white,native, yellow or pink)

I bet you even assume every native is exempt from taxes and lives in a teepee well I hate to burst your bubble but I have paid Uncle Sam every year same as the other guy and I live in a house that we are paying for.

I have paid for my hunting and fishing license same as the other guy (we have no treaty and have done well for ourselves without one)Our tribe lost 1.8 million acres in eastern oregon and is buying it back piece by piece but thats beside the point.

In summation, There are many factors to blame for the states hunting fiasco and every man, woman and child share the responsiblity of arriving at a solution that is going to improve hunting there.

For those that despise the tribes in that state with treaties I would start a grass roots effort to get those treaties abolished. Contact your Congressional delegates and see how an effort like this can be started.

For those that know tribal people who take more than their share have you ever called them on this? and ask them where in their treaties does it give them the right to insult the creatures of the earth by taking them in the time they should have no hunting pressure what so ever. I dont think animals (deer or elk) should be hunted in any winter months.

Thats all I have to say for now
 
hell hawk, i'm probably as much indian as most tribal members. doesn't bother my if someone says something about a 120 year old treaty. why do folks always have to play the race card or start callin' folks bigots? everyone is a bigot. sounds like hawk really dislikes white folks. oh yeah, you forgot to call us all nazi's and rednecks and some of the other stuff that is popular. as to what bura said about the strip, predator control is "THE" problem there. any of you remember that it wasn't too many years ago that all deer hunting was stopped on the strip? no permits for years. the problem was lions. talked with an Az. g&f biologist at length about it. he said he'd warned the honchos years earlier but no one did anything for fear of "offending" huggers. he proposed a 2 lion limit, above and beyond the 1 lion limit for the rest of the state and he also proposed allowing non-resident guides to hunt there. at the time Az. didn't allow non-resident outfitters and the way the strip is situated it is a lot more accessible to nevada and utah guides. they wouldn't do that either. instead they let the premier mule deer herd disappear. didn't get serious until the lions started starving because they'd killed all the deer. really. i don't know if any of us will ever see the strip even a small fraction of what it once was. it never had huge herds of deer, but it was so remote that bucks got a chance to get old and get big. dang lions. now i see they've put a limit on 2 of the units that have the biggest lion problem. unit 27 and 28. cats are everywhere and now there is a limit as to how many can be taken. don't even know what to say about that, other than i'll do my best to shoot everyone i see. if Az. has a management problem, it's that they listen too much to the folks that don't pay the bills, i.e. non and anti hunters. hunters and fishers are always the last ones listened too. always afraid of "offending" someone.
 
RLH- my post was directed at Kingfish who in an earlier post wanted me to enlighten him.

I don't profess to know about the hunting or lack thereof in Arizona and wasn't talking to or about Bura I think he is a great guy that posts meaningful well thought out comments.
 
Hawk, I gave more then one reason why hunting in Washington is so bad. It was never my intention to offend you or anyone else. Your response was basically defensive. I don't think any of those things about indians...Most of the gentlemen that came to my defense have already said most of it for me...The one thing that hasn't been brought out is the "FACT" that is plain and simple and it is this.....The American indian LOST a war!!!. To me the government did the wrong thing forcing indians to reservations and creating a sovereign nation within a nation..This is America, Home of the brave, land of the free...That should mean all people. I realize this is not a perfect world but I am sick and tired of being treated like a criminal because I am caucasion and there for owe the American indian something because they lost a war....Let make sure we get this straight Hawk...You attacked me!!. If you think less of me because I express my opinion so be it.
 
I agree they did lose "a war" (goes way beyond that but I needn't get into that)but were promised things for giving up, so you should be pissed at the US govt for honoring the agreements right ?

You are right that was a defensive answer but you dont know racism having never experienced it. Not crying just making a distinction of why we react to things we percieve as such. You blamed 5 things for the sh*tty hunting in Washington so conceptually 20% of the problem you attributed to tribes with treaties. Even though no proof was offered to make that statement valid.

Hell this is taking too much thought, can't help you think the way you do and it was just that one opinion you expressed that irked me. For the most part you like Bura are notable sources of information where wildlife issues are concerned.
 
Hawk, Let me end this with an apology for offending you. It was never my intent. I don't want to open a can of worms that will only cause more hurt feelings mainly because it's such an emotional topic. Lets just agree to disagree and move on. Thanks for your insight. Keith.
 
Keith,

And I owe you one as well for reacting the way I did- you are a great guy and a excellent source of information.

Keep on keeping on

Amos.
 
drawing a good permit in washington is hard because there are only a handfull of good units to hunt.
 
Hawk not to step in and keep the fire burning but I have to disagree with you on one thing, you said the indians were put on god forsaken land? Well obviously you have never been to the Apache reservation in AZ, its some of the most plentiful and beutiful land you will ever see, lots of great hunting and fishing! You also apparently have never been to my neck of the woods on the Flathead res here in MT, the Mission Mountains kick major ass! While I'm on the subject I'm white and I live on the res. Theres a whole lot of us that own land here, in fact the local school currently has more white kids then indians. Unfortulantely from my understanding of how this is possible is that tribal members started trading the land off for booze years ago. If thats true I dont know who was worse in those deals, the whites taking advantage of the situation of the tribal members just not giving a dang. Either way we have one hell of a nice piece of property and plan on buying more! As for hunting I currently can not hunt on the land, except for birds and I do get to fish. I do have to buy a tribal stamp to do that and as far as I know the same goes for tribal members, only difference is they get to hunt, which is cool with me because all the good hunting is just right off the res anyways. I do agree though with you atleast up here,the tribes have no effect on hunting being good or bad.
 
NMRaptor said:
I'd have to say California.
-Raptor
Click to expand...
I hunt and have hunted a LOT of different states. For public land hunting, California is hands down the WORST! ! They thrive on predator protection and are not at all concerned about the game animals. Now with bear hunting restrictions and wolves moving in all over the state, it keeps getting even worse! We need a new Governor and leadership so badly but the dems keep voting the same idiocy in no matter how bad things get!
 
jamaro said:
New Mexico...
Because we have not draw for Deer.. It is crazy out there... the poor deer don't have a chance... Also, New Mexico has these landowner tags that can be unit wide... So ranches can sell the tags and not even let the buyers hunt the ranch...
Click to expand...
wrong, if a landowner gets a unit wide tag, they must allow anyone with a valid tag for that unit to hunt on the ranch for which they received that tag, that is in the agreement.
 
I would agree that New Mexico is the absolute worse state in the West if you are a DIY/OYO nonresident hunter. What NM did years ago to nonres DIY is a shame! On the other hand, if you are a deep pocketed nonres with plenty of $ NM is fantastic!

I would say that Colo is pretty much opposite for nonres DIY/OYO hunters opportunity. Lots of options for OTC elk tags and relatively good to excellent % of tag allocations to nonres. Colo also has landowner tags if you have deep pockets (which also is somewhat of a shame!).

With that said, Colo's actual wildlife management is currently one of the worse in the West. Take a look at what the CPW has done to our mule deer quantity and quality! Yep, increase mule deer tags and place rifle hunting dates smack dab in the middle of the rut will solve chronic wasting disease where CWD prions have built up in Colorado soils for the past 40 to 50 years! Yep, even with mule deer winterkill and population issues across Colorado, deer license quotas and sales remain high.

Only a few years ago Colo was THE mule deer mecca of the West. It's been sad to see things slide so quickly. Obviously, license $ sales is more important to those in high places at the CPW than proper wildlife management.

Introducing wolves and the possibility of mtn lion and bobcat hunting eliminated in the near future glooms over Colorado. Who's to say black bear and other hunting will soon follow? I would say Colo is far and above the current worse managed state for wildlife. Let the experts make wildlife decisions rather than putting things up to a public vote!

Yep, the current Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a joke! It has been pretty sad to see such a great state that had such amazing wildlife heritage slide so quickly.
 
FINALLY!! Someone says Colorado. I can't imagine another state being much worse than Colorado. With the exception of California, since that is where most of the bright ideas seem to come from.
 
Gjkimber45 said:
FINALLY!! Someone says Colorado. I can't imagine another state being much worse than Colorado. With the exception of California, since that is where most of the bright ideas seem to come from.
Click to expand...
No one said Colorado because this thread was made in 2004.
 
The seal has been broken! The CPW was totally different in 2004 compared to what it is today! Not everything in Colo is negative or bad but there is a lot of crap going on at the CPW in the past few years!

Hopefully the CPW catch on about the bad rap they are getting from both resident and nonresident hunters that support their budget and fund wildlife management in Colorado!
 

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