Thanks UDWR

SanPitch

SanPitch

Active Member
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I'm wondering if this is the result of a success rate that dropped from nearly 100% to down in the 60% range?

I could be wrong on the numbers, but last time I looked, it was a bit surprising (i don't know why ) to see how much success reduced when they stopped providing guides to the public hunters for free. It can be a tough hunt if you don't know the area.

I believe anyone familiar with this property would not be too surprised as most knew this is exactly what would happen.
 
lostinOregon said:
Why does UT have such problems separating church and state.
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The church owns the land, the state (people) owns the elk. How exactly do you propose separating the two?

I lay the blame squarely on the UDWR. There are ways to get these elk killed during the structured seasons already in place. They can and do strongarm some CWMU's into killing more antlerless animals. That is what should have been done in this case. If the Deseret was in jeopardy of losing bull tags, I guarantee they would have found multiple ways to get their public hunter's success rate up.
 
elkantlers said:
The church owns the land, the state (people) owns the elk. How exactly do you propose separating the two?

I lay the blame squarely on the UDWR. There are ways to get these elk killed during the structured seasons already in place. They can and do strongarm some CWMU's into killing more antlerless animals. That is what should have been done in this case. If the Deseret was in jeopardy of losing bull tags, I guarantee they would have found multiple ways to get their public hunter's success rate up.
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I agree with you 100%
 
So in UT no political decisions are influenced by the church? I am not knocking the faith. All I am saying is that it’s clear from a distance that your standing in the church matters politically in UT. If this Jo schmo rancher would this have happened?
 
This was not Joe Shmo rancher and is not the only CWMU in the state who's land is owned by the church. But adjacent CWMU's have the same problem regardless of church affiliation.

22/23 winter put a glaring target on these CWMU's.
 
lostinOregon said:
So in UT no political decisions are influenced by the church? I am not knocking the faith. All I am saying is that it’s clear from a distance that your standing in the church matters politically in UT. If this Jo schmo rancher would this have happened?
Click to expand...

This has zero to do with the church.

Look at the news the last year


WB member is bating, the DWR knows it, and the director kisses his azz on the way out the door.

WLH is on video, complete with flight logs on helicopters chasing elk, SILENCE

WLH burns under a trees bear, and DWR tries to sweep it under the rug, until a line journalist turns up the heat.


Now, DWR is killing OUR elk because Deseret can't sell the tags.

That's off top of my head in 1 min.

WE HAVE A CORPORATE HUNTING PROBLEM, and the DWR LEADERSHIP IS A MAJOR PLAYER IN THAT.

That's not mentioning any of Don Peays bullshit, Leo patrolling I-15 or any of the half dozen other BS stories in the last year.
 
I'm as pro DWR guy as there is in here. But, I've always separated the biologists and Leo from the SLC crowd.


It's time for Shirley to be shown the door.

And frankly, there are 3-4 others that need to join him, possibly more.

That agency is completely out of control.
 
So Hossy?

When Are You Gonna Apply For The Job?

hossblur said:
I'm as pro DWR guy as there is in here. But, I've always separated the biologists and Leo from the SLC crowd.


It's time for Shirley to be shown the door.

And frankly, there are 3-4 others that need to join him, possibly more.

That agency is completely out of control.
Click to expand...
 
So baiting is legal as long as it is beneficial to the UDWR.
So basically they did not shoot enough on the cow hunt so they baited and killed 170 with paid shooters?
How about letting the public do the culling?
Who were the paid hunters? Deseret? Friends of Dwr employees?
Wade Heaton?
WLH?
Funny that Faith Heaton was involved?
Shows they knew it was BS when they tried to hide from the public?
 
treedagain said:
So baiting is legal as long as it is beneficial to the UDWR.
So basically they did not shoot enough on the cow hunt so they baited and killed 170 with paid shooters?
How about letting the public do the culling?
Who were the paid hunters? Deseret? Friends of Dwr employees?
Wade Heaton?
WLH?
Funny that Faith Heaton was involved?
Shows they knew it was BS when they tried to hide from the public?
Click to expand...

Hey treedagain, no disrespect intended, but have you ever been to the desseret range day where the public hunters qualify their ability to hit an elk?

I have, and I will tell you with absolute certainty.... you probably wouldn't want the average public hunter on a precision cull hunt. I could be wrong, actually I'm probably wrong, but maybe there is a reason for hired shooters in this situation.
 
So exactly how many elk were culled in the entire unit? They donated 39,000 pounds of meat. Probably killed around 3000 elk.
 
Mtngoat690 said:
Hey treedagain, no disrespect intended, but have you ever been to the desseret range day where the public hunters qualify their ability to hit an elk?

I have, and I will tell you with absolute certainty.... you probably wouldn't want the average public hunter on a precision cull hunt. I could be wrong, actually I'm probably wrong, but maybe there is a reason for hired shooters in this situation.
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None taken.

And yes I have been to a range day. My wife had the tag. I could not say if it was mess.

But knowing the vast range of hunters I could see it your way.

A controlled over bait "hunt" would even out some of the Shooting issues.
 
lostinOregon said:
If this Jo schmo rancher would this have happened?
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Yes, it would have. The state does depredation hunts that do not involve the public all the time. It is either that or pay said Jo schmo farmer tens of thousands of dollars for the damage, as statute requires.

Or, we can have a huge overpopulation of elk on these properties and have another harsh winter and we can all sit and watch dozens upon dozens die of starvation before our eyes at the Echo Junction up the canyon towards Evanston again.

The DWR probably prefers going and addressing the problem quietly and off the radar to each of the actions above. I’m only guessing, because they didn’t run their decisions by me. Although I do happen to know of a certainty that these types of operations (on a smaller scale) happen regularly all around the state. Always have, and I’m guessing they always will.
 
"we can talk and encourage".....

No.

You can limit their bull tags until they do what the DWR wants.

Just another example of the tail wagging the dog.

And since when did the DWR decide it didn't need to tell the people who fund it what's going on?

Time for Justin Shirley, Faith Heaton, Mark Hadley, and Covy Jones to hit the bricks.

The leadership at this agency is completely out of control and out of line
 
If baiting big game results in felony charges for a WB member, who gets the felony on this one?

I don't remember reading the Deseret exception in the baiting law.

Shockingly Faith Heaton is closed lipped on this one as well.

Who knew the DWR had top secret classification
 
I used to guide on that ranch, I know it is the DNR's pet science project.

It has absolutely everything needed to grow deer and elk and can be micro managed due to the animals never needing to leave.

Sorry to inform the conspiracy guys but there are no high fences, helicopters herding elk onto the ranch, it's all 100% hogwash.

What I WILL confess is that 170 animals could have and should have been incorporated into the public draw cow hunters, there really isn't a legitimate excuse as to their reasoning for not.

What I do agree with is keeping the elk numbers at objective to help recover the heavily lost deer numbers in that unit.

1100 calf elk born every year grows a tight herd in a hurry, especially when the numbers harvested are in the 800's.

We've all heard the theory on almost every unit that the elk are impacting deer numbers, this is the perfect storm to prove that.
 
slamdunk said:
I used to guide on that ranch, I know it is the DNR's pet science project.

It has absolutely everything needed to grow deer and elk and can be micro managed due to the animals never needing to leave.

Sorry to inform the conspiracy guys but there are no high fences, helicopters herding elk onto the ranch, it's all 100% hogwash.

What I WILL confess is that 170 animals could have and should have been incorporated into the public draw cow hunters, there really isn't a legitimate excuse as to their reasoning for not.

What I do agree with is keeping the elk numbers at objective to help recover the heavily lost deer numbers in that unit.

1100 calf elk born every year grows a tight herd in a hurry, especially when the numbers harvested are in the 800's.

We've all heard the theory on almost every unit that the elk are impacting deer numbers, this is the perfect storm to prove that.
Click to expand...


Luckily all 1100 elk born were cows so it makes perfect sense to cull only cows.

I know, they have the calves, and of course they aren't worth 5 figures.
 
hossblur said:
Luckily all 1100 elk born were cows so it makes perfect sense to cull only cows.

I know, they have the calves, and of course they aren't worth 5 figures.
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My basic and limited knowledge would tell me it would cost the state a heck of a lot more to accommodate 170 additional hunters (cullers) versus using current ranch hands and DNR employees to cull out 170 in a quick fashion.

I know it's not a pretty scenario, but it makes sense (to me) why they did it the way they did.
 
They could have ran it like a harvest objective unit. A long season and a lot of tags. Bottom line the WB, the DNR, the CWMU program and the outfitting industry is a giant corrupt clown show. This is the whole problem with the CWMU program they want to be compensated elk damage but at no less than 2k for cows and 5 figures for bulls. If it isn’t outfitted then they will just sit on the tags. If they don’t like it then they should be kicked the F##k out of the program. It was never created to be an elite hunting retreat. But here we are.
 
slamdunk said:
My basic and limited knowledge would tell me it would cost the state a heck of a lot more to accommodate 170 additional hunters (cullers) versus using current ranch hands and DNR employees to cull out 170 in a quick fashion.

I know it's not a pretty scenario, but it makes sense (to me) why they did it the way they did.
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Heaton got charged for baiting.
Is it legal on church owned ground?
 
middlefork said:
Apparently it is if you get a COR from the division.
I don't think Mr. Heaton applied.
Click to expand...

So if the division asks the division if it's ok if the division that charged Heaton with baiting violations, can bait, then it's ok for the division to bait.

But the division is super excited that no one from the division let the public know the division gave itself permission for the division to bait.


I swear to God, it's about every damn week anymore with the shady, shady **** happening in SLC.

JUSTIN SHIRLEY SHOULD BE FIRED
 
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Hey Hossy?

Do you Remember When I Said?

DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO!

I'm Perty Sure At This Time WH Is Gonna Say I Thought It Was Legal & Standard Procedure After Watching The DWR Do It!



hossblur said:
So if the division asks the division if it's ok if the division that charged Heaton with baiting violations, can bait, then it's ok for the division to bait.

But the division is super excited that no one from the division let the public know the division gave itself permission for the division to bait.


I swear to God, it's about every damn week anymore with the shady, shady **** happening in SLC.

JUSTIN SHIRLEY SHOULD BE FIRED
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy?

Do you Remember When I Said?

DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO!

I'm Perty Sure At This Time WH Is Gonna Say I Thought It Was Legal & Standard Procedure After Watching The DWR Do It!
Click to expand...

I would.

If I'm his lawyer I'm calling Covy Jones first, Mark Hadley second, Faith Heaton third.

Let a jury try to figure out why Heaton baiting for $45k deer is wrong but DLL baiting for 11 more tags is lawful.
 
hossblur said:
Heaton got charged for baiting.
Is it legal on church owned ground?
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If it’s the DWR overseeing it or doing it I would say yes it is. I don’t believe they have the same restrictions you or I would have. Not saying it’s right or wrong but if they feel it’s necessary to cull off 170 elk between January and March and baiting is the best and most efficient way for them to do it then they have the authority to make that decision.
 
Hunter21 said:
If it’s the DWR overseeing it or doing it I would say yes it is. I don’t believe they have the same restrictions you or I would have. Not saying it’s right or wrong but if they feel it’s necessary to cull off 170 elk between January and March and baiting is the best and most efficient way for them to do it then they have the authority to make that decision.
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They and only they can use cameras after July 31st, so I'm sure there's authority there to use bait in a culling process......just guessing 💁‍♂️
 
Cull those big bucks over bait piles…….in the name of saving Utah’s herd from CWD. Any of trump’s lawyers would roll that defense out without a second thought.

No dog in the fight, but it just looks bad. Right or wrong.
 
I’m curious why these extra tags are a problem when everyone is saying they need to kill more elk.

They’ve mismanaged the herd there, they need to kill more bulls, and now that they’re doing it, they are wrong for doing it.

C’mon….
 
If It Had Been Public Property You'd Of NEVER Had To Worry About An Over Population!

Vanilla said:
I’m curious why these extra tags are a problem when everyone is saying they need to kill more elk.

They’ve mismanaged the herd there, they need to kill more bulls, and now that they’re doing it, they are wrong for doing it.

C’mon….
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
I’m curious why these extra tags are a problem when everyone is saying they need to kill more elk.

They’ve mismanaged the herd there, they need to kill more bulls, and now that they’re doing it, they are wrong for doing it.

C’mon….
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I have a decent amount of knowledge about this place, so I may understand it better than those who've never stepped foot on it.

They manage the ranch for quantity over quality.
It's a place where a guide will literally show his client a hundred 6x6 bulls on a 5 day hunt.

The average bull is 330", it's rare to get a bull over 370 but possible.

The bull to Cow ratios are 1:1, sometimes they'll take it 1:3, but it's kept at a very high bull ratio.
It's just how they want it for a "phenomenal Elk hunting experience" and it's been that way for decades.

3000 head of elk, 1500 being cows, yields 1100 calves per year and only 850ish total elk removed annually leaves an excessive annual growth issue that needs addressed occasionally, especially when a habitat issue arises.

170 Elk isn't mismanagement, it's micro management.

I'm not condoning how they went about the cull, but I understand why.
 
True But Them Animals Get Dwindled Down Before Numbers Get Crazy Out Of Hand Like This CWMU Deal!

And I Do Know Alot Of Ranchers & Farmers That'll SCREAM Over One Or Very Few Animals!



Vanilla said:
I assure you there are plenty of ranchers and farmers that disagree with that!
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
I’m curious why these extra tags are a problem when everyone is saying they need to kill more elk.

They’ve mismanaged the herd there, they need to kill more bulls, and now that they’re doing it, they are wrong for doing it.

C’mon….
Click to expand...

I thought the issue was 1100 calves born ever year.

How many calves did those bulls have?

170 cows had to be slaughtered because they produce too many calves, so to keep in control, DLL needs 11 more bull tags?

Makes perfect sense, at least if your an accountant. A biologist would be left scratching their head.
 
GOOD GAWD PUNK!

You'll Have Nilly In AWE!

slamdunk said:
I have a decent amount of knowledge about this place, so I may understand it better than those who've never stepped foot on it.

They manage the ranch for quantity over quality.
It's a place where a guide will literally show his client a hundred 6x6 bulls on a 5 day hunt.

The average bull is 330", it's rare to get a bull over 370 but possible.

The bull to Cow ratios are 1:1, sometimes they'll take it 1:3, but it's kept at a very high bull ratio.
It's just how they want it for a "phenomenal Elk hunting experience" and it's been that way for decades.

3000 head of elk, 1500 being cows, yields 1100 calves per year and only 850ish total elk removed annually leaves an excessive annual growth issue that needs addressed occasionally, especially when a habitat issue arises.

I'm not condoning how they went about the cull, but I understand why.
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
I have a decent amount of knowledge about this place, so I may understand it better than those who've never stepped foot on it.

They manage the ranch for quantity over quality.
It's a place where a guide will literally show his client a hundred 6x6 bulls on a 5 day hunt.

The average bull is 330", it's rare to get a bull over 370 but possible.

The bull to Cow ratios are 1:1, sometimes they'll take it 1:3, but it's kept at a very high bull ratio.
It's just how they want it for a "phenomenal Elk hunting experience" and it's been that way for decades.

3000 head of elk, 1500 being cows, yields 1100 calves per year and only 850ish total elk removed annually leaves an excessive annual growth issue that needs addressed occasionally, especially when a habitat issue arises.

170 Elk isn't mismanagement, it's micro management.

I'm not condoning how they went about the cull, but I understand why.
Click to expand...


1100-850=250

250-11=239.


Explain again how giving them another 11 bull tags helps the supposed issue?

Oh ya

11x $25,000( low balling)= $275,000


Funny thing being to an accountant, you start to see through the bullshit and look at the bottom line.


Or to quote the DWR when it comes to deer.

"Bucks don't have fawns"

I'll assume, neither do bulls, so 11 dead ones doesn't do **** if your 250 elk over objective every year
 
hossblur said:
1100-850=250

250-11=239.


Explain again how giving them another 11 bull tags helps the supposed issue?

Oh ya

11x $25,000( low balling)= $275,000


Funny thing being to an accountant, you start to see through the bullshit and look at the bottom line.


Or to quote the DWR when it comes to deer.

"Bucks don't have fawns"

I'll assume, neither do bulls, so 11 dead ones doesn't do **** if your 250 elk over objective every year
Click to expand...
so 11 dead ones doesn't do **** if your 250 elk over objective every year

Which Pulled More Money In?

Some Quality Bull Hunts?

Or A BAIT & F'N SLAUGHTER?
 
I'm Very Surprised They/DWR Didn't Get Them Pushed Off The CWMU For A Depredation Slaughter!

150.00 Per Cow & They Coulda Got 2500.00 Per Bull Easily!
 
The fact that they tried to keep this a secret tells you all you need to know. These types of situations make it seem ok for hunters to break the law. People will read this and ask "If the DWR can break the law (Bait, Harass, & Kill), why can't I?"

If you make mistakes managing an elk herd, just say so and present a proposed plan to fix it and bring it back down to goal. It's not hard, and there's plenty of options.

Not a good look for the DWR
 
elkassassin said:
so 11 dead ones doesn't do **** if your 250 elk over objective every year

Which Pulled More Money In?

Some Quality Bull Hunts?

Or A BAIT & F'N SLAUGHTER?
Click to expand...

Slamdunk just said dll runs 1:1. From my understanding thats pretty close.

SO. Following Hoss simple math, if you need to cull 170 elk, wouldnt you kill 85 cows and 85 bulls?

Or even 150 cows and 35 bulls?



OF course not. Each bull killed is (again hoss number) $25k. Not a chance theyd cull even 10 bulls, thats a $250,000 loss.

Now, the official word will be bulls dont have cows so to control population you kill cows. Which is true, 100%.

But going forward, are they issuing more cow tags, because COWS HAVE CALVES?

HELL NO, they of course need 11 more bull tags. You know, to control populations.
 
Keystone said:
Slamdunk just said dll runs 1:1. From my understanding thats pretty close.

SO. Following Hoss simple math, if you need to cull 170 elk, wouldnt you kill 85 cows and 85 bulls?

Or even 150 cows and 35 bulls?



OF course not. Each bull killed is (again hoss number) $25k. Not a chance theyd cull even 10 bulls, thats a $250,000 loss.

Now, the official word will be bulls dont have cows so to control population you kill cows. Which is true, 100%.

But going forward, are they issuing more cow tags, because COWS HAVE CALVES?

HELL NO, they of course need 11 more bull tags. You know, to control populations.
Click to expand...


I apologize for making you do math and understand basic science this early in the morning.


Good thing is after all the killing, they will be 1000 elk over objective in 4 years.

Perhaps 20 more bull tags will fix it?
 
elkassassin said:
A Question For Nilly & The PRO'S?

How Come There Wasn't Any Bulls Baited & Shot?

:D:D:D!!!
Click to expand...

Bulls don’t have calves. We’ve been through that before.

If you want to control population, you don’t do it through killing bulls. Same as with does and fawns and bucks with deer.

Pretty simple biology lesson, actually.
 
Seems like there is an ax to grind here more than an actual issue with what has happened.

DLL is overpopulation for elk they say, so they go kill a bunch of cows. We do this all the time, but now it’s a problem.

DLL has too high of bull:ratio, they say, so they issue more bull tags. And now it’s a problem.

The Trib got folks all worked up over that evil owner “the church” and scary suppressed rifles. Good job fellas!

And all I’m doing over here is wondering how I can figure out how to get a cow tag each year so I can post pics all over the Gram for bessy to see what a great hunter I am!!!
 
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slamdunk said:
I have a decent amount of knowledge about this place, so I may understand it better than those who've never stepped foot on it.

They manage the ranch for quantity over quality.
It's a place where a guide will literally show his client a hundred 6x6 bulls on a 5 day hunt.

The average bull is 330", it's rare to get a bull over 370 but possible.

The bull to Cow ratios are 1:1, sometimes they'll take it 1:3, but it's kept at a very high bull ratio.
It's just how they want it for a "phenomenal Elk hunting experience" and it's been that way for decades.

3000 head of elk, 1500 being cows, yields 1100 calves per year and only 850ish total elk removed annually leaves an excessive annual growth issue that needs addressed occasionally, especially when a habitat issue arises.

170 Elk isn't mismanagement, it's micro management.

I'm not condoning how they went about the cull, but I understand why.
Click to expand...
What do they charge for that elk hunting experience.
 
It’s different these days how they do it. The outfitter sells “leases” now instead of individual tags. Meaning someone buys a lease and gets X elk, Y deer, and Z antelope tags they can give to whomever they want.

(I don’t know the numbers, that’s why I use exponents…)

I’m guessing there are a small number of individual tags to be sold if you have the right connections, but the model has changed over the years.
 
hossblur said:
1100-850=250

250-11=239.


Explain again how giving them another 11 bull tags helps the supposed issue?

Oh ya

11x $25,000( low balling)= $275,000


Funny thing being to an accountant, you start to see through the bullshit and look at the bottom line.


Or to quote the DWR when it comes to deer.

"Bucks don't have fawns"

I'll assume, neither do bulls, so 11 dead ones doesn't do **** if your 250 elk over objective every year
Click to expand...
I'll take a reasonable stab at this one.

Elk on DLL are free range, easily welcome to come and go.

They simply cannot be "accounted" for with pin point accuracy like a dollar inside a bank account.

Therefore there are margins for errors on counting and numbers.

No, 11 additional bulls taken wouldn't even move the needle either way on the range, only in a bank account 🤑
 
www.outdoorlife.com

Utah Officials Secretly Culled 170 Elk on Church-Owned Deseret Land

State officials say the cull was necessary to bring elk numbers more in line with the agency's population objectives.
www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com


Suddenly ole Faith can talk freely. Not to the folks who pay her though.

Read the end. CWMU can be put on probation or lose their CWMU if they don't manage correctly.

EXCEPT if your DLL,

They get to sale more bull tags. I hope they can recover from such a painful penalty
 
On a side note.

Imagine the panic at DWR headquarters when Faith gets a call from Eric Peterson wanting a statement on something.

Dude is taking a wrecking ball to the place
 
hossblur said:
www.outdoorlife.com

Utah Officials Secretly Culled 170 Elk on Church-Owned Deseret Land

State officials say the cull was necessary to bring elk numbers more in line with the agency's population objectives.
www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com


Suddenly ole Faith can talk freely. Not to the folks who pay her though.

Read the end. CWMU can be put on probation or lose their CWMU if they don't manage correctly.

EXCEPT if your DLL,

They get to sale more bull tags. I hope they can recover from such a painful penalty
Click to expand...
The CWMU program is ran by a CWMU Association and that Association sets up the rules that all CWMU must run by.
I have heard of a CWMU operation that was on probation for a few years by the CWMU Association because they refused to sale any buck permits on his CWMU, they was allowing locals, mostly younger hunters, to come in and kill managment bucks.
I don't know forsure this is 100% true, but I did hear it from a direct source.
I mention this because sometimes it is not always the DWR fault.
 
notdonhunting said:
The CWMU program is ran by a CWMU Association and that Association sets up the rules that all CWMU must run by.
I have heard of a CWMU operation that was on probation for a few years by the CWMU Association because they refused to sale any buck permits on his CWMU, they was allowing locals, mostly younger hunters, to come in and kill managment bucks.
I don't know forsure this is 100% true, but I did hear it from a direct source.
I mention this because sometimes it is not always the DWR fault.
Click to expand...


DWR controls the tags. No other entity is allowed to.
 
hossblur said:
www.outdoorlife.com

Utah Officials Secretly Culled 170 Elk on Church-Owned Deseret Land

State officials say the cull was necessary to bring elk numbers more in line with the agency's population objectives.
www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com
Click to expand...
From the article,
"So, the DWR issued a certified of registration that authorized the killing of up to 300 cow elk." “As a result, we removed a total of 170 elk on the Deseret Land & Livestock CWMU,” Jolley says.

They only killed 170 of 300? 🤣 They call themselves professionals??? And.... it cost them $53.000

I know half a dozen guys that could have surpassed that number for a case of beer each. lol
 
I really know very little about the DLL, but I am going to through in my 2 cents.
Bulls will leave DLL if there is too many Bulls for the amount of cows and that means the hunt unit that is around the DLL is the beneficiary.
I am not a rancher, but with the price of beef today the DLL would probably be financially better off to high fence their properties and kill off all the elk and increase the amount of cattle on their property.
I know there has been some negative happenings involving private property owners and especially CWMU operator's lately, but most ranchers these days want to be good stewards of the land. Not only the land they own but the land and animals around them. Most ranchers do more for the game animals and none game animals of Utah than most any of us general citizens of Utah.
 
hossblur said:
DWR controls the tags. No other entity is allowed to.
Click to expand...
You are correct, and I I failed to point that out.
I know very little about the DLL, but I only imagine the size of land and the number of animals on that CWMU is a tough management situation.
There is some serious issues about CWMU program, I do think the program could and should correct these issues, but I would rather have CWMU'S than have these block of private properties be brocken up and become minne ranchettes, or subdivisions.
 
notdonhunting said:
I really know very little about the DLL, but I am going to through in my 2 cents.
Bulls will leave DLL if there is too many Bulls for the amount of cows and that means the hunt unit that is around the DLL is the beneficiary.
I am not a rancher, but with the price of beef today the DLL would probably be financially better off to high fence their properties and kill off all the elk and increase the amount of cattle on their property.
I know there has been some negative happenings involving private property owners and especially CWMU operator's lately, but most ranchers these days want to be good stewards of the land. Not only the land they own but the land and animals around them. Most ranchers do more for the game animals and none game animals of Utah than most any of us general citizens of Utah.
Click to expand...

Ehhhhhh.

Yes and no.

Yes, DLL is probably the best run CWMU as far as how they should be run in the state. I e known several if not a dozen people who've hunted it and they have nothing but positive to say.

I know at least 3 guys(I've never met slam so he doesn't count) that guided it, same answer.


Buuuuuut.

The Church is both a church, and a business.

The buisness side of DLL, not the public side, is a corporate retreat. Corporations buy packages for hunting there. It's not like the smaller guys who sell individual or small group tags. DLL hosts some of the biggest companies in the country. They also host a lot of politicians.

So, would they make more strictly farming it? Maybe, probably.

But the BUISNESS of the church is no different than any other buisness. Networking and connections can be worth billions to them, so in that regard, the hunting(vacationing) is worth hundreds times more than cows or hay.


There's a reason the DWR did what DLL wanted, paid for it, and shut up about it. Backscratching goes both ways.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints owns the property. It does not run the hunting. An outfitter contracts with the church to run it. Of course, the church is still the owner and can control what it wants or doesn't want, but the hunting aspect of this is so inconsequential to the church. It's not even peanuts in the equation here.

The outfitter, not associated with the church outside of the contract they have with each other, is who manages and runs the hunting operations at Deseret Land and Livestock.
 
Vanilla said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints owns the property. It does not run the hunting. An outfitter contracts with the church to run it. Of course, the church is still the owner and can control what it wants or doesn't want, but the hunting aspect of this is so inconsequential to the church. It's not even peanuts in the equation here.
Click to expand...
Says The Guy that Pays His Tithing Weekly,Right Nilly?
Vanilla said:
The outfitter, not associated with the church outside of the contract they have with each other, is who manages and runs the hunting operations at Deseret Land and Livestock.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints owns the property. It does not run the hunting. An outfitter contracts with the church to run it. Of course, the church is still the owner and can control what it wants or doesn't want, but the hunting aspect of this is so inconsequential to the church. It's not even peanuts in the equation here.

The outfitter, not associated with the church outside of the contract they have with each other, is who manages and runs the hunting operations at Deseret Land and Livestock.
Click to expand...

Don Peay has nothing to do with $fw😉
 

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