Feeling salty

C

Cam@strawberry

Very Active Member
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2,380
Woke up this morning ready to watch the world burn.

Last elk committee we were working towards eliminating limited entry. Survey work and public sentiment was tilted wildly in that direction and committee was acting on what the hunters in this state wanted.

Got told to come up with something more realistic because ‘it wouldn’t make it past RAC and we’d be back in the room doing it again’.

So next time you’re out ‘helping a buddy with his once in a lifetime elk tag’ because you can’t draw a tag to hunt for yourself in this hell hole of a management plan. Remember it’s all because the state doesn’t listen to you, overrides majority desires to pander to a few, and takes the easy roads.
 
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Cam@strawberry said:
Woke up this morning ready to watch the world burn.

Last elk committee we were working towards eliminating limited entry. Survey work and public sentiment was tilted wildly in that direction and committee was acting on what the hunters in this state wanted.

Got told to come up with something more realistic because ‘it wouldn’t make it past RAC and we’d be back in the room doing it again’.

So next time you’re out ‘helping a buddy with his once in a lifetime elk tag’ because you can’t draw a tag to hunt for yourself in this hell hole of a management plan. Remember it’s all because the state doesn’t listen to you, overrides majority desires to pander to a few, and takes the easy roads.
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Share with us your solutions or ideas on the LE's, sell it to us like ice cream on a hot summer day 😋
 
We never really got that far. However, if the world was mine for a day, I’d do this.

Turn everything north of I-70 into GS, run it on the same capped OTC system we have currently with these 5 rules.

1. 5 point or better
2. Mandatory harvest report
3. Eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every 3rd. Additional year if you harvest.
4. Season changes: muzz last 10 days of August, archery all of September, rifle October 1–15
5. Either or rule: you can choose to hunt GS or LE. You can’t do both.

For elk south of 70 we go LE and lean into it hard. 8.5+ year managment goals. High bull to cow ratios. Just anything we can to grow the biggest bulls on the planet.

I don’t think it can be overstated how important rule 5 is, if we issued and sold 50,000 (personally I think it would be closer to 75,000) permits per year, that means 50,000 applicants are out of the LE pool. Point creep would plummet. Especially if we actually turned every inch of ground south of 70 into high quality LE. San Juan, boulder, beaver, Monroe, Dutton, manti lasal, paunsagaunt, Zion, pine valley, south west desert, panguitch lake, Henry mtns, and Kolob all managed for age, genetics, and high B/c ratios.

I don’t like trying to ‘meet in the middle’ as a negotiation tactic. I’m more of a guy who wants to swing the pendulum as far as proverbially possible either way and forget the middle. So I’d want a management plan that’s all in for GS and LE, not something that tries to do a little bit of both to appease the masses and ends up pissing off almost everyone.
 
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This may sound dumb to most, but I’d be really sad if I couldn’t hunt cows/spikes with my bow every year. It’s probably the hunt I look forward to the most. I’d way rather have that opportunity to hunt and Harvest every year instead of being able to potentially harvest a 5 point bull every 2-3 years. I’ve killed big bulls. It was fun. I have just as much fun hunting cows. Probably more fun really. I just don’t see what’s so broke about our system we have now. We can have our cake and eat it too. Every year, for anyone who wants the opportunity. Seems like we’d be giving up more than we would be gaining.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
We never really got that far. However, if the world was mine for a day, I’d do this.

Turn everything north of I-70 into GS, run it on the same capped OTC system we have currently with these 5 rules.

1. 5 point or better
2. Mandatory harvest report
3. Eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every 3rd. Additional year if you harvest.
4. Season changes: muzz last 10 days of August, archery all of September, rifle October 1–15
5. Either or rule: you can choose to hunt GS or LE. You can’t do both.

For elk south of 70 we go LE and lean into it hard. 8.5+ year managment goals. High bull to cow ratios. Just anything we can to grow the biggest bulls on the planet.
I don’t think it can be overstated how important rule 5 is, if we issued and sold 50,000 (personally I think it would be closer to 75,000) permits per year, that means 50,000 applicants are out of the LE pool. Point creep would plummet. Especially if we actually turned every inch of ground south of 70 into high quality LE. San Juan, boulder, beaver, Monroe, Dutton, manti lasal, paunsagaunt, Zion, pine valley, south west desert, panguitch lake, Henry mtns, and Kolob all managed for age, genetics, and high B/c ratios.

I don’t like trying to ‘meet in the middle’ as a negotiation tactic. I’m more of a guy who wants to swing the pendulum as far as proverbially possible either way and forget the middle. So I’d want a management plan that’s all in for GS and LE, not something that tries to do a little bit of both to appease the masses and ends up pissing off almost everyone.
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If you remember in the elk meetings, I was right there with you on this plan.

Most thought we were crazy to even suggest and when we did talk about this plan, most laughed and thought we were just joking.

Nope, not me. I support this plan and think it should be brought back up again.

Kevin
 
Cam@strawberry said:
We never really got that far. However, if the world was mine for a day, I’d do this.

Turn everything north of I-70 into GS, run it on the same capped OTC system we have currently with these 5 rules.

1. 5 point or better
2. Mandatory harvest report
3. Eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every 3rd. Additional year if you harvest.
4. Season changes: muzz last 10 days of August, archery all of September, rifle October 1–15
5. Either or rule: you can choose to hunt GS or LE. You can’t do both.

For elk south of 70 we go LE and lean into it hard. 8.5+ year managment goals. High bull to cow ratios. Just anything we can to grow the biggest bulls on the planet.
I don’t think it can be overstated how important rule 5 is, if we issued and sold 50,000 (personally I think it would be closer to 75,000) permits per year, that means 50,000 applicants are out of the LE pool. Point creep would plummet. Especially if we actually turned every inch of ground south of 70 into high quality LE. San Juan, boulder, beaver, Monroe, Dutton, manti lasal, paunsagaunt, Zion, pine valley, south west desert, panguitch lake, Henry mtns, and Kolob all managed for age, genetics, and high B/c ratios.

I don’t like trying to ‘meet in the middle’ as a negotiation tactic. I’m more of a guy who wants to swing the pendulum as far as proverbially possible either way and forget the middle. So I’d want a management plan that’s all in for GS and LE, not something that tries to do a little bit of both to appease the masses and ends up pissing off almost everyone.
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So you would not have any spike/cow/4 point hunts south of I-70? If not how would you manage those?
Thanks
Bill
 
I’m not too worried about the specifics of an idea that will likely never get any kind of traction.

But, spike/cow down south could go 1 of 2 ways. We either choose to be ok with bulls dying of old age, or institute management bull hunts in place of spike.

Cow hunts are an entirely separate management structure that isn’t all that hard to work through.
 
So BEAVIS?

How's That PISSCUTTER AGE Objective Management treating You The Last Couple Years?

I Want Pics Of All The Old Bulls That Died In This State Of Old F'N Age!

The Antler Restriction I'd Be All For If You Can Find A Way To Enforce It!

I Seen It Tried In The BOOK CLIFFS On Deer With My Own Eyes & It FAILED Miserably!

Carry On!





Cam@strawberry said:
I’m not too worried about the specifics of an idea that will likely never get any kind of traction.

But, spike/cow down south could go 1 of 2 ways. We either choose to be ok with bulls dying of old age, or institute management bull hunts in place of spike.

Cow hunts are an entirely separate management structure that isn’t all that hard to work through.
Click to expand...
 
Cam@strawberry said:
We never really got that far. However, if the world was mine for a day, I’d do this.

Turn everything north of I-70 into GS, run it on the same capped OTC system we have currently with these 5 rules.

1. 5 point or better
2. Mandatory harvest report
3. Eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every 3rd. Additional year if you harvest.
4. Season changes: muzz last 10 days of August, archery all of September, rifle October 1–15
5. Either or rule: you can choose to hunt GS or LE. You can’t do both.

For elk south of 70 we go LE and lean into it hard. 8.5+ year managment goals. High bull to cow ratios. Just anything we can to grow the biggest bulls on the planet.

I don’t think it can be overstated how important rule 5 is, if we issued and sold 50,000 (personally I think it would be closer to 75,000) permits per year, that means 50,000 applicants are out of the LE pool. Point creep would plummet. Especially if we actually turned every inch of ground south of 70 into high quality LE. San Juan, boulder, beaver, Monroe, Dutton, manti lasal, paunsagaunt, Zion, pine valley, south west desert, panguitch lake, Henry mtns, and Kolob all managed for age, genetics, and high B/c ratios.

I don’t like trying to ‘meet in the middle’ as a negotiation tactic. I’m more of a guy who wants to swing the pendulum as far as proverbially possible either way and forget the middle. So I’d want a management plan that’s all in for GS and LE, not something that tries to do a little bit of both to appease the masses and ends up pissing off almost everyone.
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I could support some of this plan, but not the archery part, that needs modifying.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
We never really got that far. However, if the world was mine for a day, I’d do this.

Turn everything north of I-70 into GS, run it on the same capped OTC system we have currently with these 5 rules.

1. 5 point or better
2. Mandatory harvest report
3. Eligibility: archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every 3rd. Additional year if you harvest.
4. Season changes: muzz last 10 days of August, archery all of September, rifle October 1–15
5. Either or rule: you can choose to hunt GS or LE. You can’t do both.

For elk south of 70 we go LE and lean into it hard. 8.5+ year managment goals. High bull to cow ratios. Just anything we can to grow the biggest bulls on the planet.

I don’t think it can be overstated how important rule 5 is, if we issued and sold 50,000 (personally I think it would be closer to 75,000) permits per year, that means 50,000 applicants are out of the LE pool. Point creep would plummet. Especially if we actually turned every inch of ground south of 70 into high quality LE. San Juan, boulder, beaver, Monroe, Dutton, manti lasal, paunsagaunt, Zion, pine valley, south west desert, panguitch lake, Henry mtns, and Kolob all managed for age, genetics, and high B/c ratios.

I don’t like trying to ‘meet in the middle’ as a negotiation tactic. I’m more of a guy who wants to swing the pendulum as far as proverbially possible either way and forget the middle. So I’d want a management plan that’s all in for GS and LE, not something that tries to do a little bit of both to appease the masses and ends up pissing off almost everyone.
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Concerning Rule #5, where does the purchase of a landowner tag fall in to the plan?
 
Give us back being able to use late cow tags during our deer hunt. Dumb that was ever taken away. Leave the limited entry alone or add more archery tags or a December traditional muzz season. (I have 0 points btw)
 
100% agree to removal of the rifles during Sept. that could be archery or hams or traditional or whatever they want to call it, I would also move the muzzy into the first week of October, and the rifle hunts to follow mid to end October, possibly catch 2nd heat cycle,
Just my 2 cents
 
Justhunt14 said:
100% agree to removal of the rifles during Sept. that could be archery or hams or traditional or whatever they want to call it, I would also move the muzzy into the first week of October, and the rifle hunts to follow mid to end October, possibly catch 2nd heat cycle,
Just my 2 cents
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I’m on board with this idea.

It seems ridiculous to allow rifle hunting for elk in September when they are so susceptible to effective calling techniques.
 
To be honest a bull hunt with an open sight muzzleloader the end of august would be pretty a pretty high success hunt as well. Elk in general just aren’t that smart, until they figure out they are being hunted. But even at that point, their best defense is to go into a hole and hope no one else wanders in there. Once they feel safe again, they throw caution to the wind and become dumb again.
 
Bux n Dux said:
Elk in general just aren’t that smart, until they figure out they are being hunted. But even at that point, their best defense is to go into a hole and hope no one else wanders in there. Once they feel safe again, they throw caution to the wind and become dumb again.
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Show me this place you speak of with all of the dumb elk.

I've never seen it.

It sounds like Narnia.
 
Let’s not forget this isn’t another dumb management post.

It’s a be pissed off at the division post because they undercut the public’s very clear wants.
 
Deer god can you imagine the bashing of teeth and screams of terror?

No rifles in Sept? Shrunken pool of big dollar guided hunts?

Let's be honest. It might pass everyone on the RAC not taking cash to hunt elk.


The corporate overlords must be satisfied first before we worry about the 98%.


Gs or Le should be for deer and elk period. That's one that should be next in the list.

Let the trophy hunters, who's point creep would shrink, hunt elk every 15-20 years.

Let the evil oppurtunists go hunt.

Short of no points, either/or is the best way to end point creep
 
Why not post name of this enlightened DWR hack who makes these decisions.

Let him answer for it, god know tge committee people get to hear all the time
 
Get rid of all outfitters and that would get rid of the big money hunters that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground that wouldn't be hunting without an outfitter doing all the work for them. That would help the herd management alone. Could help point creep a bit as well. I'm not saying this to piss off outfitters I've got some good friends that guide and they are really good at what they do and that's part of the problem.
 
pauns08 said:
Get rid of all outfitters and that would get rid of the big money hunters that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground that wouldn't be hunting without an outfitter doing all the work for them. That would help the herd management alone. Could help point creep a bit as well. I'm not saying this to piss off outfitters I've got some good friends that guide and they are really good at what they do and that's part of the problem.
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Cool.

Will you also make it illegal to have 15 of your closest friends out there spotting bucks for you on the pauns when you draw that tag again one day?

Because the only difference is that some people are getting paid and others arnt.....Just saying. Or am I asking?

Either way, having a bunch of your "buddies" out there cruising the roads looking for a monster to whack is stupid and not fair chase IMHO. See the 15 million videos of big animals dying by tard hunters using these very tactics on YouTube if you want proof..........
 
Mallardsx2 said:
Cool.

Will you also make it illegal to have 15 of your closest friends out there spotting bucks for you on the pauns when you draw that tag again one day?

Because the only difference is that some people are getting paid and others arnt.....Just saying. Or am I asking?

Either way, having a bunch of your "buddies" out there cruising the roads looking for a monster to whack is stupid and not fair chase IMHO. See the 15 million videos of big animals dying by tard hunters using these very tactics on YouTube if you want proof..........
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You've always been an argumentative fellow but you're going to be mad because yes I 100% agree with you I would love to limit the people you're able to have on these hunts but it'll never happen. When I drew the pauns I had my dad and one close friend with me and that was it and my dad had a tag also so really we had one friend with us.
 
Mallardsx2 said:
Cool.

Will you also make it illegal to have 15 of your closest friends out there spotting bucks for you on the pauns when you draw that tag again one day?

Because the only difference is that some people are getting paid and others arnt.....Just saying. Or am I asking?

Either way, having a bunch of your "buddies" out there cruising the roads looking for a monster to whack is stupid and not fair chase IMHO. See the 15 million videos of big animals dying by tard hunters using these very tactics on YouTube if you want proof..........
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I'm a better drywaller than you will ever be. Bring 15 of your buddies and I'm better than all of you combined.

Mainly because I do it everyday, all year, and have for decades. You and your buddies, do not.

Pretending their is no difference in your buddy driving around a week in a year, and mossback paying finders fees, setting thousands of cameras and camping on animals for weeks, while scouting from horn on to horn drop yearly, and for decades is pretty childish and naive.
 
pauns08 said:
Get rid of all outfitters and that would get rid of the big money hunters that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground that wouldn't be hunting without an outfitter doing all the work for them. That would help the herd management alone. Could help point creep a bit as well. I'm not saying this to piss off outfitters I've got some good friends that guide and they are really good at what they do and that's part of the problem.
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Amen. At the very least no guiding on public land but that will never happen.
 
Great ideas, I like lotta what berrys putting out there. Mostly no rifles in September and choose GS vs LE open up some more GS and bring back some true trophy-die of old age type units, also make the shed hunting/viewing much better.

As far as big groups spotting it’ll never be capped, with my severe ADHD and mild Tourette’s, it nice to have someone competent on the glass, at least my dry wall skills make up for my hunting skillz.

IMG_8500.jpeg
 
hossblur said:
I'm a better drywaller than you will ever be. Bring 15 of your buddies and I'm better than all of you combined.

Mainly because I do it everyday, all year, and have for decades. You and your buddies, do not.

Pretending their is no difference in your buddy driving around a week in a year, and mossback paying finders fees, setting thousands of cameras and camping on animals for weeks, while scouting from horn on to horn drop yearly, and for decades is pretty childish and naive.
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Never really looked at it that way but you're 100% correct sometimes all the 15 people do is get in everyone's way which is frustrating but they aren't really doing much in terms of getting animals killed.
 
smokepolejohnson said:
Great ideas, I like lotta what berrys putting out there. Mostly no rifles in September and choose GS vs LE open up some more GS and bring back some true trophy-die of old age type units, also make the shed hunting/viewing much better.

As far as big groups spotting it’ll never be capped, with my severe ADHD and mild Tourette’s, it nice to have someone competent on the glass, at least my dry wall skills make up for my hunting skillz.

View attachment 157395
Click to expand...

You work for ivory homes?😁
 
pauns08 said:
You've always been an argumentative fellow but you're going to be mad because yes I 100% agree with you I would love to limit the people you're able to have on these hunts but it'll never happen. When I drew the pauns I had my dad and one close friend with me and that was it and my dad had a tag also so really we had one friend with us.
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For the record I’m all for getting rid of the outfitters and the guys with 15 friends killing animals for instagram photo ops.
 
Mallardsx2 said:
For the record I’m all for getting rid of the outfitters and the guys with 15 friends killing animals for instagram photo ops.
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My dad and uncle were outfitters for years, before all the social media hype, they're pretty disgusted to see what it has done to the industry, and it was only those two that operated, once in awhile they would make a call for horses, but they kept it simple.
 
I've always wondered why the Mason/Dixon line exists in Utah?
Why are those southern units so much more special that the northern units can be sacrificed? If that is what is truly what would happen.
 
Amazing How They Can Be Grown!

Take Notice It Didn't Happen On Public Ground!

I Guess Them CWMU's Are Not Using The BS Age Objective Management!

I'll Let BEAVIS & Nilly Take It From Here!

Bluehair said:
Hey, is this old news? I’m too dumb and cheap to get around the paywall.

www.sltrib.com

Utah wildlife officials secretly culled 170 elk from LDS Church ranch land

The solution to an overabundance of elk in northern Utah, state wildlife officials decided, would be a big operation and an even bigger secret.
www.sltrib.com www.sltrib.com
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It was gods will.

From January through March, dozens of DWR staff members worked with privately contracted hunters to bait and shoot 170 elk on the Deseret Cooperative Wildlife Management Unit, or CWMU, located on ranch land operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 
Gods Will?

Looks Like The Mormons Can Grow Em If You Know What I Mean!

Drop The Excess Off On Public Ground & Most Of Them Will Be Gone Within One Year!



Mallardsx2 said:
It was gods will.

From January through March, dozens of DWR staff members worked with privately contracted hunters to bait and shoot 170 elk on the Deseret Cooperative Wildlife Management Unit, or CWMU, located on ranch land operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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We have animals being killed by the Division year round for depredation purposes. The one talked about in the story is a very large example, but it’s certainly not unique other than the numbers.

This story (and dozens others like it) are most definitely old news.

The things people choose to take offense by are hilarious. Carry on…
 
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No Offense!

The F'N Truth!

Vanilla said:
We have animals being killed by the Division year round for depredation purposes. The one talked about in the story is a very large example, but it’s certainly not unique other than the numbers.

This story (and dozens others like it) are most definitely old news.

The things people choose to take offense by are hilarious. Carry on…
Click to expand...
 
Here’s a fun story about elk, depredation, and management.

Back in 2018 the Ol ‘snatch was caught in the cruel grip of cow control permits. It finally came to a head, and we actually made some meaningful management changes. This is a short tale about that.

The cow control permits were a product of an elk herd that was over objective, at the time 5500 and the pop estimate hovered around 7000. We didn’t understand it, because success rates on cow hunts had fallen thru the floor. They went from a 10 year average of a very steady 55% down to 28%. At the same time population estimate had increased by 2000~head. Didn’t make sense then, still shake my head now.

We got mad, hunters were upset, and it culminated in some productive meetings that pushed for a few things. Higher objective, collar studies, private land cow permits, and landowner support.

Heber had a herd that came off private during the winter and was pretty trained to go straight for a particular dairy farms hay stack, this was one of the bigger motivations from the division to want to kill elk. They had to write damage checks, division employees were regularly being called out at all hours of the night to chase elk off the hay, it was just a massive drain on them.

Rightfully so, given the frustration of population objectives and the political and psychological load that the depredation and damage check problem elk were creating, the mentality at that time with the division was just shoot them. Cow control, depredation, any valid excuse, just kill elk.

We started to take some of the load off and that got old fast, dedicated hunter hours were great for a bit, but being out of bed from 12-4 am 2-3 times a week wasn’t ideal. So we decided to shoot a few of them, figured that would do the trick, lined up some donation homes for the meat, and set up to kill some cows and solve the problem. We killed about 10 of them over 3 nights, and after night 3 we shot the lead cow(s) and the next just stepped over the carcass and kept coming.

Then we decided we’d trap them and move them because chasing them wasn’t working, and they didn’t care about being shot at. Trapping elk wasn’t a thing at the time so we had to figure out how to pull that off 1st, dreamt up a way to do it and implemented it. It worked well, and we started moving the herd, 20 or so at a time, from Heber down to Emma park. That’s quite a distance for those who have read this far. Like 50 miles or so.

2 weeks later they were back, we had collared them and the collar data showed a bee line right back to Heber from Emma park. Just a head shaking moment. Did it over again and this time moved them to oqurrih/stansbury hoping that an entire city would hold them. It did.

So, the moral of the story? Elk are hard to deal with, and shooting them is often times the best option.
 
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And This Is Why I Tell Everybody BEAVIS'S Backyard Is The Place To Shoot Elk!

So It Took Some Real Life SPERIENCE To Learn That Elk Don't Forget Where The Feed Is?

What'd That Lesson Cost?



Cam@strawberry said:
Here’s a fun story about elk, depredation, and management.

Back in 2018 the Ol ‘snatch was caught in the cruel grip of cow control permits. It finally came to a head, and we actually made some meaningful management changes. This is a short tale about that.

The cow control permits were a product of an elk herd that was over objective, at the time 5500 and the pop estimate hovered around 7000. We didn’t understand it, because success rates on cow hunts had fallen thru the floor. They went from a 10 year average of a very steady 55% down to 28%. At the same time population estimate had increased by 2000~head. Didn’t make sense then, still shake my head now.

We got mad, hunters were upset, and it culminated in some productive meetings that pushed for a few things. Higher objective, collar studies, private land cow permits, and landowner support.

Heber had a herd that came off private during the winter and was pretty trained to go straight for a particular dairy farms hay stack, this was one of the bigger motivations from the division to want to kill elk. They had to write damage checks, division employees were regularly being called out at all hours of the night to chase elk off the hay, it was just a massive drain on them. Rightfully so, the mentality at that time with the division was just shoot them. Cow control, depredation, any valid excuse, just kill elk.

We started to take some of the load off and that got old fast, dedicated hunter hours were great for a bit, but being out of bed from 12-4 am 2-3 times a week wasn’t ideal. So we decided to shoot a few of them, figured that would do the trick, lined up some donation homes for the meat, and set up to kill some cows and solve the problem. We killed about 10 of them over 3 nights, and after night 3 we shot the lead cow(s) and the next just stepped over the carcass and kept coming.

Then we decided we’d trap them and move them because chasing them wasn’t working, and they didn’t care about being shot at. Trapping elk wasn’t a thing at the time so we had to figure out how to pull that off 1st, dreamt up a way to do it and implemented it. It worked well, and we started moving the herd, 20 or so at a time, from Heber down to Emma park. That’s quite a distance for those who have read this far. Like 50 miles or so.

2 weeks later they were back, we had collared them and the collar data showed a bee line right back to Heber from Emma park. Just a head shaking moment. Did it over again and this time moved them to oqurrih/stansbury hoping that an entire city would hold them. It did.

So, the moral of the story? Elk are hard to deal with, and shooting them is often times the best option.
Click to expand...
 
Berrysblaster, like I said above, the Trib is going to try and get everyone upset at something that has been happening for a long time in a number of places.

It’s old news, and really shouldn’t be a big deal for those of us that know how this goes. These are not “hunts.” They are cull jobs. They ain’t pretty. But they happen, more than people apparently know!
 
After reading umpteen posts about how the draw should be, what the herd management should be, what should be LE or GS. I have learned one thing! Someone is going to be pissed, and rules will flip flop back and forth forever. Just like we are seeing with optics on muzzleloaders. There is not 1 state where people are completely happy with how things are ran. I dont have the answers, and I dont believe anyone does. Hopefully those that are in place to make decisions are making decisions for the herds, and sportsmans, not to line pockets of organizations, or guides.
 
american_jackal said:
After reading umpteen posts about how the draw should be, what the herd management should be, what should be LE or GS. I have learned one thing! Someone is going to be pissed, and rules will flip flop back and forth forever. Just like we are seeing with optics on muzzleloaders. There is not 1 state where people are completely happy with how things are ran. I dont have the answers, and I dont believe anyone does. Hopefully those that are in place to make decisions are making decisions for the herds, and sportsmans, not to line pockets of organizations, or guides.
Click to expand...


New to Utah?
 
Vanilla said:
Berrysblaster, like I said above, the Trib is going to try and get everyone upset at something that has been happening for a long time in a number of places.

It’s old news, and really shouldn’t be a big deal for those of us that know how this goes. These are not “hunts.” They are cull jobs. They ain’t pretty. But they happen, more than people apparently know!
Click to expand...
Trib I my cares about this particular cull because it happened in church land, and they are the world's authority on being anti Mormon, even though it was the church that saved their entire operation a few years back.
 
Those cow elk culled were not shot off a hay stack, for public safety, or out of an ag field. The cull was the result of a decade plus of neglect and under harvest on hunting units that have a 7 month long hunting season. It appears some are ok with the public loosing 20-75% of their hunting opportunity. (This one cull reduced the public's tag quota by approx 40% on that unit)

As for the original topic- I heard the Elk Committee didn't like those ideas. It wasn't just a DWR torpedo that sunk them. An 8 year old age objective is one of the most difficult management strategies ever tried- 8.5yo is even worse.
 
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Packout said:
Those cow elk culled were not shot off a hay stack, for public safety, or out of an ag field. The cull was the result of a decade plus of neglect and under harvest on hunting units that have a 7 month long hunting season. It appears some are ok with the public loosing 20-75% of their hunting opportunity. (This one cull reduced the public's tag quota by approx 40% on that unit)

As for the original topic- I heard the Elk Committee didn't like those ideas. It wasn't just a DWR torpedo that sunk them. An 8 year old age objective is one of the most difficult management strategies ever tried- 8.5yo is even worse.
Click to expand...
Just so it’s clear, from my perspective sitting in the meetings, we never got to the point of actually looking at alternatives.

This is how I understood it:

1. We looked at the existing plan, the math attached to point creep being the chief focal point.

2. As a result of 1 we sent out survey work to the public to get a sense of what was wanted.

3. That survey info came back and we looked at options to act on it.

4. When we started to move toward a drastic shift from what we have, we were steered towards a less aggressive approach using the ‘never get it past rac’ justification. Basically as soon as someone asked for alternatives it was shifted back.

5. We then worked within the existing structure to address point creep and opportunity as aggressively as we could.

Again, just my perspective sitting in and participating in the meetings as the alternate for the guides and outfitters representative.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
Just so it’s clear, from my perspective sitting in the meetings, we never got to the point of actually looking at alternatives.

This is how I understood it:

1. We looked at the existing plan, the math attached to point creep being the chief focal point.

2. As a result of 1 we sent out survey work to the public to get a sense of what was wanted.

3. That survey info came back and we looked at options to act on it.

4. When we started to move toward a drastic shift from what we have, we were steered towards a less aggressive approach using the ‘never get it past rac’ justification. Basically as soon as someone asked for alternatives it was shifted back.

5. We then worked within the existing structure to address point creep and opportunity as aggressively as we could.

Again, just my perspective sitting in and participating in the meetings as the alternate for the guides and outfitters representative.
Click to expand...

I agree with previous.

Post the name of who gets to decide what the public wants doesn't matter
 
Hey Hossy!

You Should Know The Answers Already!

There Might Be A Committee Involved!

AKA: 12 or 13 Members Making Rules & Decisions For 10's Of Thousands Of Other Hunters!

There's The RAC Meetings!

The RAC Votes/Info Are Turned In To The WB!

Then The WB Does As They Damn Well Please And With Some Of Them There May Be Some COI's!

I'll QUIT Typing Before I PISS Somebody Off!



hossblur said:
I agree with previous.

Post the name of who gets to decide what the public wants doesn't matter
Click to expand...
 
Packout said:
It appears some are ok with the public loosing 20-75% of their hunting opportunity. (This one cull reduced the public's tag quota by approx 40% on that unit)
Click to expand...

Help me understand the math here. I am not seeing them decreasing any tags or taking any tags away. They simply aren’t adding them.

I think multiple people, including a member of the public that had concern about this overall, addressed that pretty clearly in the article. Adding more tags wasn’t necessarily going to help get the number of animals killed they needed killed.
 
Vanilla said:
Help me understand the math here. I am not seeing them decreasing any tags or taking any tags away. They simply aren’t adding them.
Click to expand...
Not adding them, and giving them in a different manner, effects the public's contracted portion- in this case which is 100% of the antlerless harvest. The Rule states that if a CWMU takes 90% of the bull opportunity then the public gets 100% of the antlerless opportunity. If there needs to be more antlerless harvest then the public is supposed to get 100% of that opportunity- as was stated in the Rule. (previous Rule for the past 20 years) Allowing private harvest decreases/dilutes the public's contracted portion.

Of course, the mismanagement of those units for such a long time has compounded the problem to the point where there needs to be other strategies implemented. Unfortunately, the means of dealing with the problem mostly benefit the CWMU at the expense of the public.

Edit- in 2018 the CWMUs in this area were asked to increase their harvest of antlerless elk. There was a lot of pushback from most and they didn't increase harvest in a meaningful way. Most CWMUs in this herd unit killed more bulls than cows over the past 5 years.
 
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Packout said:
Not adding them, and giving them in a different manner, effects the public's contracted portion- in this case which is 100% of the antlerless harvest. The Rule states that if a CWMU takes 90% of the bull opportunity then the public gets 100% of the antlerless opportunity. If there needs to be more antlerless harvest then the public is supposed to get 100% of that opportunity- as was stated in the Rule. (previous Rule for the past 20 years) Allowing private harvest decreases/dilutes the public's contracted portion.
Click to expand...

I guess this is technically possibly true. That said, there is no guarantee any of those buck and bull holders will actually buy the cow tag they are entitled to now. We know some will, so the point you’re making is technically correct.

I don’t think they could logistically give 300 more public tags and have any measure of a good hunt. I honestly don’t have an issue the rule change proposed, even though I will never be able to benefit from it. I can see how some would. You ought to talk to your RAC representative and see if he will propose some changes there to this equation! 😜
 
Vanilla said:
I guess this is technically possibly true.... so the point you’re making is technically correct.
Click to expand...
I will take that, barrister. I like that "technically" word when referring to Rule and contract. Its all in the details. It is true, both technically and basically- which is why they had to rewrite the Rule to allow for extenuating circumstances.

ha- there are plenty of public statements on the record and plenty of RAC reps, CWMU reps, and DWR personnel who agree with the above- but the mess is so large they will need a bigger mop, which they now have. The question is, will they continue to use that mop after mess has been cleaned up.... If so then the public lost.
 

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