Winchester Rifle Appraiser

toklat

toklat

Active Member
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Wanted, recommendation and contact information for an expert appraisal of older Winchester lever action rifles.
 
I'm Sure There's Somebody Out There!

You Could Browse GUNBROKER & Get Kind Of A Feel For Their Values Are!
 
Some Cabelas used to employ decent appraisers. No sure if they still do since the BP merger.
 
Elk A, DavidD, thnx for your responses,
I have previously checked with both sources mentioned.
Cabela’s lowballed even Fjestad Blue Book values and would offer 70% of max value. They had also never seen such a configuration!
I have not seen a comparable configuration on either Gun Broker or other internet selling venues to compare to.
Winchester Collectors Association published a reference which most accurately cites values however, you need to know what percent condition your rifle is in to gauge a value and does not capture all special features.
I have also looked at Merz Antiques as well as other high end auction houses such as Rock Island and other venues to no avail to date.
I would ideally like to meet person to person or discuss with an acknowledged appraiser.
Rifle in question is a Model 1892 short barrel rifle over 123 years old with seven special features. It has also been ATF reviewed and certified.
 
Blue Book of gun values is pretty good and has a section to help evaluate the condition. I would also try to contact some of the authors who write the books on Winchester and history of the Winchester rifles.
 
So?

Can You Clue Us In A Little Better On The Guns?

Pics?

toklat said:
Elk A, DavidD, thnx for your responses,
I have previously checked with both sources mentioned.
Cabela’s lowballed even Fjestad Blue Book values and would offer 70% of max value. They had also never seen such a configuration!
I have not seen a comparable configuration on either Gun Broker or other internet selling venues to compare to.
Winchester Collectors Association published a reference which most accurately cites values however, you need to know what percent condition your rifle is in to gauge a value and does not capture all special features.
I have also looked at Merz Antiques as well as other high end auction houses such as Rock Island and other venues to no avail to date.
I would ideally like to meet person to person or discuss with an acknowledged appraiser.
Rifle in question is a Model 1892 short barrel rifle over 123 years old with seven special features. It has also been ATF reviewed and certified.
Click to expand...
 
I'm positive american rifleman had an article on them within the last couple of years.....sb 1892
 
Tikka, thanks. Send me your e-mail if fine by you to me and I will send you pictures.
I have trouble uploading pics and PMs on the forum!
My e-Mail is: [email protected]
I can send you my phone contact info for texts as you deem necessary as well.
I will send the pics to your address.
Might ask you to post pics on this thread later as well for me if amenable and as elkassassin requested. Would greatly appreciate it.
Blue Book does not take in consideration special features!

ElkA, It is a 14” part octagon, part round barrel rifle with a Lyman flip up peep sight, 7 1/2” wood forearm, shotgun metal butt plate, widow’s peak butt plate, checked buttplate and button magazine. Born in 01/22/22 as per Cody museum firearm records. The Museum does not offer appraisals.

Having a 14” barrel, it necessitated review and confirmation of originality from ATF as required by the NFA Act regarding firearms with barrels shorter than 16” which I have.
It’s condition is lacking possibly less than 40% and obviously a rifle used around a working ranch.
What it lacks in condition, it more than makes up for it in its rarity and special features.
It is also not a trapper carbine but a special short rifle having the rounded metal fore-end cap. Trapper carbines do not have metal fore-end caps.
It is a 32-20 caliber and not as valued as a 44-40!
Model 1892s were manufactured with barrels as short as 12”.

It is however, completely mechanically sound with great lands and rifling!
I am interested in an official hard copy evaluation that I can present and as requested by and for insurance purposes.
 
I own a Winchester 1894 30 Cal. take down model. It was made in 1901 from what I can tell. The wood is nice and almost too good to not have been refurbished some time in the past. There is zero bluing left on it………. it’s as shiny as a nickel silver spoon.

I think I’ve posted pictures of it previously but I’ll do it an again……… along with the serial number. I’m pretty sure it’s not in good enough condition to sell for much but it still hits what I point it at and know one could buy it from me, for any amount of money. It will go to a grandchild one day…….. with a written history on why I bought it and why I’ll never sell it.

05124BC6-2BD3-4E10-AC56-9E532A71FD38.jpeg
41CF6C28-DF3D-4CEA-BF8A-648EE329D02E.jpeg
60D17CEE-F280-4D73-968B-D0CAF42B283D.jpeg
 
Your rifle was manufactured around 1902 as per the website on the net: When Was My Winchester Made”.

Just scroll down to Model 1894 and reference your serial number.

You have at least two special features on your rifle being a takedown and having an octagon barrel.

The wood looks really great and might be a special order but may have also been refinished as you stated and based on all the bluing gone on the barrel and receiver.

Still a great rifle and keeper!
 
toklat said:
Your rifle was manufactured around 1902 as per the website on the net: When Was My Winchester Made”.

Just scroll down to Model 1894 and reference your serial number.

You have at least two special features on your rifle being a takedown and having an octagon barrel.

The wood looks really great and might be a special order but may have also been refinished as you stated and based on all the bluing gone on the barrel and receiver.

Still a great rifle and keeper!
Click to expand...
Thanks T, Your date of manufacture makes sense. I used Winchester’s dating document but wasn’t sure if it was 01 or 02.
 
I don't think winchester ever called an 1892 a "trapper"......that is slang for baby carbine or special short carbine.....
 
From What I understand Winchester Did Make A Few WINCHESTER 1892 HALF OCTAGON BARREL Guns But Are Quite Rare!

Some in 32 WCF & Some In 38 WCF!

Still Wondering If Somebody Didn't Cut Yours Down?
 
There’s a lot of guys on this site, expert with a tape measure. Perhaps some of these fellers would be a good fit to appraise and purchase your rifles?
 
Elk A, All. You are correct. It is a an SBR (Short Barrel Rifle). Trapper is not an official name for them but that term is often used.

SBRs are essentially standard 20” carbines that were manufactured with barrel lengths shorter than 20”. Barrel lengths offered were 12, 14, 15,16 and 18” in length. 1892 SBRs were offered in 25-20, 32-20 and 44-40 calibers.

Other calibers were offered in 20” standard carbines and full length rifles.

ElkA, the picture you posted is a carbine and note it does not have the rounded metal fore-end cap which differentiates the two.
It is not a mares leg either.

I will try and get someone to help me post pics if I don’t hear back from Tikka whom I can send pictures to and have them post on this thread for me?

My e-Mail address is: [email protected]
If someone wants to send me an e-mail address or phone I can text photos to.

My number is also 505-670-9970

Thanks.
 
PS Another misnomer on this rifle, it is not a half round, half octagon barrel either. It is accurately identified as a part round, part octagon barrel as both round and octagon barrel lengths are not equal in length.

Full length barreled rifles were manufactured with full octagon and half octagon barrels.
 
I Was Just RAZZIN On The Mares Leg!:D

Sounds Like You've Definitely Got A RARE Gun!

And I'm Almost Sure Tikka Ain't Gonna Wanna Give You What It's Worth!:D (((RAZZIN You Tikka As Well!:D)))
 
No problem.
😎
I just reached out to Founder and hopefully he can post pictures for me!
He has been very helpful in the past.
Keep you posted.
Thanks all!
 
2lumpy said:
I own a Winchester 1894 30 Cal. take down model. It was made in 1901 from what I can tell. The wood is nice and almost too good to not have been refurbished some time in the past. There is zero bluing left on it………. it’s as shiny as a nickel silver spoon.

I think I’ve posted pictures of it previously but I’ll do it an again……… along with the serial number. I’m pretty sure it’s not in good enough condition to sell for much but it still hits what I point it at and know one could buy it from me, for any amount of money. It will go to a grandchild one day…….. with a written history on why I bought it and why I’ll never sell it.

View attachment 138498View attachment 138501View attachment 138502
Click to expand...
I have almost the copy of this gun except mine is a take down version. So hard to get a value on these. Bottom line is they are only worth what someone will pay for it. It takes a select buyer and the guys wanting the old Wins are dwindling.
 
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elkassassin said:
It'd Be Cool To Know The Exact History Of These Old Guns...............I Think?:D
Click to expand...
Same here, I love western history…

You ever been to the Yuma Territorial Prison State Park? They have some pretty cool old six shooters and riffles in there… I have a bunk of pictures of it…
 
Wow....that is different.....you need to find the expert's expert....there aren't many of those.....Your ATF letter certainly would indicate it is authentic....
 
The butt plate indicates...."rifle"....but they never made a "rifle" with those barrel lengths....only carbines. I say VERY rare
 
I Always Wondered On These Old Guns In That Timeframe/Era If When They Ran Out Of Bullets If They Were Used As Clubs?:D
 
There is an antique firearms appraiser in the Wood River Valley of Idaho. You can get his name and number from Guffys Pawn Shop in Hailey Idaho. 208- 720-5949. I’m sorry I do not have his name and number but I have used him once and he was very knowledgeable and helpful. There’s still plenty of guys buying old firearms.
 
ElkA thanks for posting pics. Tikka thanks for your assistance as well.
Tikka, all those long barreled Winchester “rifles” do in fact also have a metal rounded fore-end caps.
Difference is, 20” carbines do not.
Short barreled rifles (SBRs) such as this with a 14” barrel (shorter than standard 20” barrel found on carbines) also have a rounded fore-end metal cap and thus referenced as a “rifle”. Trappers do not have a metal rounded fore-end cap either.
It has what is referenced as a “shotgun metal butt-plate”, both which are special order options.
It is a rifle (short barrel rifle) not a trapper.
Overall length 32”, 32-20.
It has been evaluated by ATF, determined original and removed from the provisions of the NFA as defined under 18 USC, 921(a)(3) and a curio or relic as defined under 27 CFR 478.11.
I have had one Winchester collector associate state that “based on it’s rarity, it would take a long time to find another one like it.”
Another remarked as has been previously mentioned, “it is worth what a buyer wants to pay for it”.
In summary, I am not looking to sell but rather find and attain a “hard copy, written professional Winchester rifle evaluation” for purposes of insurance.

Hawksbill. I will follow up with your recommendation as well.
Thanks to all you MM’rs
 
LIK2HNT said:
Blue Book of gun values is pretty good and has a section to help evaluate the condition. I would also try to contact some of the authors who write the books on Winchester and history of the Winchester rifles.
Click to expand...
Blue Book isn't very accurate these days, especially in real time. Look at Gunbroker completed auctions that will give you a good idea.
 
I'd post all these pics and info in the Winchesters collectors forum over on 24HR campfire. Lots of knowledgeable guys over there that could probably help.
 
I contacted Bert Hartman at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody for the factory letters and ballpark appraisals for a model 1873 and an 1894. I can send you his contact info if interested.

Jim
 
Hi Jg82, really appreciate your recommendation. Ironic you should mention Burt!
Burt is one of several bona fide Winchester experts bar none all Winchester Arms Collector Association (WACA) members (of which I am a member) flock to for advice.
He was gracious and instrumental along with another WACA expert in reviewing the short barrel rifle for originality prior to my sending it off to ATF for review.
He noted “based on its extreme rarity of configuration, there is no way to say what it is worth until it sells to an interested collector. It could very well be one of a kind”.
The other WACA Model 1892 expert noted, “it would take an inordinate amount of time to find a similar example of another original rifle in this configuration”.
Burt and Michael are the best experts in their field!
 
toklat said:
Hi Jg82, really appreciate your recommendation. Ironic you should mention Burt!
Burt is one of several bona fide Winchester experts bar none all Winchester Arms Collector Association (WACA) members (of which I am a member) flock to for advice.
He was gracious and instrumental along with another WACA expert in reviewing the short barrel rifle for originality prior to my sending it off to ATF for review.
He noted “based on its extreme rarity of configuration, there is no way to say what it is worth until it sells to an interested collector. It could very well be one of a kind”.
The other WACA Model 1892 expert noted, “it would take an inordinate amount of time to find a similar example of another original rifle in this configuration”.
Burt and Michael are the best experts in their field!
Click to expand...
I’m not currently seeking Winchester rifle information but it’s great that you shared the names of these two gentleman. Knowing a highly reliable source for any subject is treasure worth having. Great post. Thank you.
 
You are most welcome. I took the liberty to mention their names as they are best, period. I am confident they are fine with my referencing them as they are always ready to assist and based upon my interactions with them.
I mentioned them based upon their respective reviews of the rifle’s rarity which has lead me to secure an actual monetary valuation.
 
I’ll make another observation. Nothing more that a passing thought, for what it’s worth.

Burt said. “there is no way to say what it is worth until it sells to an interested collector”

That is very true…….. but……. When a guy, without much, if any knowledge, asks a rifle’s value (or anything else) asks, “what is this worth” to a knowledgable expert, I don’t think the guy is asking for a typical retail price, like what’s the price of this rifle at Cabelas ? He’s asking for a ball park estimate……..could be answered this way…. “it’s hard to say, it’s so rare, but there are collectors that will buy these, so depending on who wants it and when you decide to sell it, it could sell for between $X and $Y. If it were me I would probably offer it for $Z, if you were decide to sell it.”

The guy gets what he’s looking for from a known specialist on a rare item.

I’m weird, I know but, that’s how I think.🤪
 
Point well taken.
Totally agree with you, however, the issue I am faced with is in determining an actual monetary value that I can actually submit in hard copy to an insurance carrier. They demand an actual monetary figure and not a verbal appraisal (i.e., w/o any specific dollar amount) in general.
Hope that clarifies things.
Thanks.
 
toklat said:
Point well taken.
Totally agree with you, however, the issue I am faced with is in determining an actual monetary value that I can actually submit in hard copy to an insurance carrier. They demand an actual monetary figure and not a verbal appraisal (i.e., w/o any specific dollar amount) in general.
Hope that clarifies things.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Yep….. perfect sense.
 
Found an expert, nationally recognized pre-64 lever action rifle Winchester appraiser.
He is a board member of the Winchester Arms Collector Association (WACA) and co-author of The Red Book of Winchester Values, 4th Edition, April 2016.
His name is Mr. Hartman and I can provide you his contact information for anyone interested in his services.
Thank-you all for your collective assistance.
Very much appreciated.
 
So toklat?

Did You Find Out How Rare Your Gun Is & It's Value?

PM Me If You'd Rather!


toklat said:
Found an expert, nationally recognized pre-64 lever action rifle Winchester appraiser.
He is a board member of the Winchester Arms Collector Association (WACA) and co-author of The Red Book of Winchester Values, 4th Edition, April 2016.
His name is Mr. Hartman and I can provide you his contact information for anyone interested in his services.
Thank-you all for your collective assistance.
Very much appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
Lik2hnt, just contacted the appraiser regarding his permission to provide his contact info.
I will either post it here for all interested or individual mail depending upon his reply to me.
Keep you posted as I hear back from him.
 
ElkA, Good starting point. Will only increase in value over time and based on evaluation of being an “irreplaceable configuration and value could easily go crazy in a well attended auction”.
Happy Easter to all!
 
You Already Know I Have Very Few Guns & You've Already Labeled Them As JUNK!

Now Quit The LOW-BALLING On toklats Gun & Make A reasonable Offer!

You Know You Want It!


Homer said:
Wore out guns are a dime a dozen Bess….this one is special
Click to expand...
 
Homer's right on track with this one..it's a very special Winchester.. if you're into high end Winchesters this one would be a sweet investment.. hell I'd probably give toklat twenty bucks just to handle it for a couple minutes.. lol😁
 

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