NE RAC

JakeH said:
Did you watch the DWRs proposal? They went over the numbers pretty good, not as far back as you did, but there are other variables you are not accounting for.

Also not sure why the covid years would have any affect on the numbers, probably had more to do with herd dynamics due to drought then anything to do with covid.
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They said it was hunters afield if I remember right.
 
JakeH said:
When I looked at the harvest statistics and they didn't support my arguments I was making. Like all of you, I assumed success had increased substantially.

I've already said at the beginning of this I was for the removal of scopes, until I personally started digging up harvest statistics to prove my point and realized I wasn't accurate.

You think you got me, but I have already said this in this post I'm sure, never hid from it.
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Nope. Just like to see WHAT changed.

How do they figure dedicated success with a muzzy?

Every deer I've killed the last 2 decades has been with a muzzy, and as a dedicated.

Dedicated can only kill 2 deers in 3 years.

So right off the bat success rates are jacked whether you add or subtract dedicated. Most dedicated guys I know sit on the first tag unless it's special.
 
hossblur said:
Nope. Just like to see WHAT changed.

How do they figure dedicated success with a muzzy?

Every deer I've killed the last 2 decades has been with a muzzy, and as a dedicated.

Dedicated can only kill 2 deers in 3 years.

So right off the bat success rates are jacked whether you add or subtract dedicated. Most dedicated guys I know sit on the first tag unless it's special.
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I wasn't sure so I just looked it up.

Dedicated has it's own group in the harvest data. So they probably was not added or subtracted from the data they are using on muzzleloaders.
 
JakeH said:
I wasn't sure so I just looked it up.

Dedicated has it's own group in the harvest data. So they probably was not added or subtracted from the data they are using on muzzleloaders.
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So there's thousands and thousands of muzzy hunters killing deer every year, that don't add to success rates of muzzies?
 
Well Hossy!

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hossblur said:
Nah.

But it's safe to assume dedicated dudes are more likely to sit on a tag so they can hunt all 3 years
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The deer my boy shot, as a dedicated, on the muzzy(scope on muzzy) doesn't add to success rates of scoped muzzies😳
 
MrShane said:
If the board is reading every one of these then here goes:
Dear Board,
Please, please, please just cut and paste Idaho’s muzzy regs in for Utah already and stop this madness.
The End.
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Dear Board

I second Mr. Shane's suggestion. Just do it and in a couple years people will have made the necessary adjustments and most of the complaining will be over with.
 
hossblur said:
So there's thousands and thousands of muzzy hunters killing deer every year, that don't add to success rates of muzzies?
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I've had 9 dedicated tags, only killed 1 deer during muzzleloader, and days hunted have been very limited as I usually have other hunts I am doing in other states.

The sample size from the strait muzzleloader hunters is probably enough to get accurate data.
We will see what the mandatory reporting does to the numbers. My guess is if muzzleloader goes up so will the other weapon types. I haven't agreed with the way they do the surveys, but at least it's something rather than a wild guess like most are doing to come up with there opinions.
 
hossblur said:
Nope. Just like to see WHAT changed.

How do they figure dedicated success with a muzzy?

Every deer I've killed the last 2 decades has been with a muzzy, and as a dedicated.

Dedicated can only kill 2 deers in 3 years.

So right off the bat success rates are jacked whether you add or subtract dedicated. Most dedicated guys I know sit on the first tag unless it's special.
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Success rates have been based on models ever since they have been published. Have the models changed? I have no idea. But good or bad they are what they are , a statistical representation of data collected.
If and I have no doubt that the mandatory reporting goes into effect next year you may have the data you want to see. Or maybe not.
If it is anything like what has been required for LE you and others might be seriously disappointed.

I have yet to kill a deer on a DH tag and I only bother to turn in the first year tag so I can hunt the 3rd year. So my statistics say I've killed at least six deer that I haven't. Maybe my average evens out yours?
 
JakeH said:
I've had 9 dedicated tags, only killed 1 deer during muzzleloader, and days hunted have been very limited as I usually have other hunts I am doing in other states.

The sample size from the strait muzzleloader hunters is probably enough to get accurate data.
We will see what the mandatory reporting does to the numbers. My guess is if muzzleloader goes up so will the other weapon types. I haven't agreed with the way they do the surveys, but at least it's something rather than a wild guess like most are doing to come up with there opinions.
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As long as you separate out all the dedicated success, the rates are badly skewed.

I agree, I think they all go up, dramatically.

In doing so, they make everything prior, useless.
 
middlefork said:
Success rates have been based on models ever since they have been published. Have the models changed? I have no idea. But good or bad they are what they are , a statistical representation of data collected.
If and I have no doubt that the mandatory reporting goes into effect next year you may have the data you want to see. Or maybe not.
If it is anything like what has been required for LE you and others might be seriously disappointed.

I have yet to kill a deer on a DH tag and I only bother to turn in the first year tag so I can hunt the 3rd year. So my statistics say I've killed at least six deer that I haven't. Maybe my average evens out yours?
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Wtf?

Your success isn't added in to anything.

It's separate.

So if you kill 2 deer with a muzzy in 3 years, it doesn't show on the muzzy data, yet, 2 deer were killed.

Your 100% success for 2 years, doesn't show.
 
JakeH said:
I've had 9 dedicated tags, only killed 1 deer during muzzleloader, and days hunted have been very limited as I usually have other hunts I am doing in other states.

The sample size from the strait muzzleloader hunters is probably enough to get accurate data.
We will see what the mandatory reporting does to the numbers. My guess is if muzzleloader goes up so will the other weapon types. I haven't agreed with the way they do the surveys, but at least it's something rather than a wild guess like most are doing to come up with there opinions.
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So your 9 tags, means 3 years? Or 5

Your basing your opinions on 3 years? Or 5?


Did you hunt with a muzzy prior to 16'?
 
hossblur said:
This discussion should be in 3 groups.

1. Dudes who started muzzy hunting 2016 of later

2. Dudes who've only hunted inlines.


3. Dudes who hunted side hammer.
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I was just about to ask "it would be interesting to see a statistical number of ALW guys who have transitioned to the MZ hunt post 2016, and then ask them why.
The answer would be a landslide, no doubt.
 
hossblur said:
So your 9 tags, means 3 years? Or 5

Your basing your opinions on 3 years? Or 5?
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Are you drunk? 9 tags is 9 years. I've been in the program 3 times.

hossblur said:
Did you hunt with a muzzy prior to 16'?
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Sure did, had a couple years of hunting without a scope, never killed anything, but like I said it wasn't my normal hunt so usually only went a couple times during the muzzleloader if at all, scopes didn't change that.

Also killed my first muzzleloader deer in 2001 at 17 with a .50 cal Hawkin with #11 cap and round balls that I borrowed from a cousin. It was the first or second year youth could hunt all 3 seasons.

so can i be included in the discussions? Or do i not meet your requirements?

hossblur said:
This discussion should be in 3 groups.

1. Dudes who started muzzy hunting 2016 of later

2. Dudes who've only hunted inlines.


3. Dudes who hunted side hammer.
Click to expand...
 
JakeH said:
Are you drunk? 9 tags is 9 years. I've been in the program 3 times.


Sure did, had a couple years of hunting without a scope, never killed anything, but like I said it wasn't my normal hunt so usually only went a couple times during the muzzleloader if at all, scopes didn't change that.

Also killed my first muzzleloader deer in 2001 at 17 with a .50 cal Hawkin with #11 cap and round balls that I borrowed from a cousin. It was the first or second year youth could hunt all 3 seasons.

so can i be included in the discussions? Or do i not meet your requirements?
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3 years of DH is 9 tags in a sense
 
JakeH said:
Sure did, had a couple years of hunting without a scope, never killed anything, but like I said it wasn't my normal hunt so usually only went a couple times during the muzzleloader if at all, scopes didn't change that.
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Okay what if you had just a Muzzy tag and no DH.
Then what jake. Just like this year if you only had a GS muzzy tag then guess what it help.
You already admitted to it. I know for a fact it help.
Now what about the rest of the muzzy hunter you know the other 34% that was successful.

What’s your angle now? That is what your going to bring to the board. I sure hope you do because I see it plain as day.
 
JakeH said:
Are you drunk? 9 tags is 9 years. I've been in the program 3 times.


Sure did, had a couple years of hunting without a scope, never killed anything, but like I said it wasn't my normal hunt so usually only went a couple times during the muzzleloader if at all, scopes didn't change that.

Also killed my first muzzleloader deer in 2001 at 17 with a .50 cal Hawkin with #11 cap and round balls that I borrowed from a cousin. It was the first or second year youth could hunt all 3 seasons.

so can i be included in the discussions? Or do i not meet your requirements?
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You could just use simple English.

In the program 3 times works great. How many tags you've had is based on whether or not you killed in the first two years of your term, or what season you killed in.

I'll be honest Jake, since you seem to want to be a smartazz, I've gotten a bunch of DM telling me your "change of mind" has a lot more to do with an alliance with Levi Reed than any "data set" you are now claiming. So we can take shots at each other if you prefer it that way. Now your on the RAC, your motives are no longer private.


Frankly, I don't believe for a second you hunted side hammer, without a scope, and with a scope, but can't see the issue. And the great thing with incomplete, or in this case horrible data is you can spin it however you want.
 
elkantlers said:
Do you work for WLH? He runs with that same kind of logic. lol
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Explain yourself please.

DH hunters are allowed 9 chances to harvest 2 deer, not including the Extended.

Am I missing something here?
Maybe my tryptophan has kicked in from the turkey today?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not above it.
 
IMG_20231123_215034.jpg


100% no difference in this vs open sight inline😉

One of LR brakes?
 
hossblur said:
You could just use simple English.

In the program 3 times works great. How many tags you've had is based on whether or not you killed in the first two years of your term, or what season you killed in.
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Sorry, been in the program 3 times for 9 years of opportunity. Only killed 5 deer with those tags 1 archery, 1 muzz, and 3 rifle. Does that clear it up for you?

hossblur said:
I'll be honest Jake, since you seem to want to be a smartazz, I've gotten a bunch of DM telling me your "change of mind" has a lot more to do with an alliance with Levi Reed than any "data set" you are now claiming. So we can take shots at each other if you prefer it that way. Now your on the RAC, your motives are no longer private.
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Lmao, I know Levi, more of an aquatance than anything he lives in the town I grew up in. First time I physically spoke to him was at the ne rac the other night. I don't have one of his guns, and have never bought anything from him so not sure what kind of alliance I have with him other than talking through Facebook about this issue. Which my opinion was formed long before he even knew it was an issue.

My motive comes from the dozens of emails that I received from sportsman on this issue the majority of which did not support the proposal and from the surveys the dwr put out solely on this issue that also did not support the proposal.

I've been an open book on this issue from the get go.

Flame away bud, you keep trying to dis credit me, but I have been nothing but honest on here.
hossblur said:
Frankly, I don't believe for a second you hunted side hammer, without a scope, and with a scope, but can't see the issue. And the great thing with incomplete, or in this case horrible data is you can spin it however you want.
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I can fully see the issue you guys are pointing to, I just disagree it's as much of an issue as you do. and so does the majority of the public especially other muzzleloader hunters.
 
Jake I understand you have DH or had.
it will be a couple of years before you draw it again.

But any ways.If you didn’t have DH and only had GS Muzzleloader tag this year you would have went home empty handed without a scope. Correct?
 
Elkrunning-Scared said:
Jake I understand you have DH or had.
it will be a couple of years before you draw it again.

But any ways.If you didn’t have DH and only had GS Muzzleloader tag this year you would have went home empty handed without a scope. Correct?
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That's not an accurate assessment, I only had 2 days off to hunt, if I only had a muzzleloader tag I likely would of had the whole season off and made the most of it. Like I said before there are a thousand different variables that could have played out.

and I've already answered your question, no scope I likely would not have taken the shot that killed my deer. I've said multiple times there is an advantage to having a scope. What you trying to get at?

You guys keep badgering me like I don't see your side, I just don't agree with you that it has the impact you say it does.
 
JakeH said:
Nope, that's a cva break, nice try though.

Lol, you having fun rummaging through my posts to try and find something to get me on? Hell of a way to spend your holiday.
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Nah.
JakeH said:
Nope, that's a cva break, nice try though.

Lol, you having fun rummaging through my posts to try and find something to get me on? Hell of a way to spend your holiday.
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Just checking in to coincidences.


I'm guessing if I got on the RAC then started supporting the Expo, a few folks would wonder what happened.

You jumped into muzzies last year, on the deep end, with a very expensive hard to get gun, topped it with a big, expensive scope, designed loads, even size bullets for it.

And THEN, everything you said previously, for a while, turns 180.

But no one should ask?
 
JakeH said:
Sorry, been in the program 3 times for 9 years of opportunity. Only killed 5 deer with those tags 1 archery, 1 muzz, and 3 rifle. Does that clear it up for you?


Lmao, I know Levi, more of an aquatance than anything he lives in the town I grew up in. First time I physically spoke to him was at the ne rac the other night. I don't have one of his guns, and have never bought anything from him so not sure what kind of alliance I have with him other than talking through Facebook about this issue. Which my opinion was formed long before he even knew it was an issue.

My motive comes from the dozens of emails that I received from sportsman on this issue the majority of which did not support the proposal and from the surveys the dwr put out solely on this issue that also did not support the proposal.

I've been an open book on this issue from the get go.

Flame away bud, you keep trying to dis credit me, but I have been nothing but honest on here.

I can fully see the issue you guys are pointing to, I just disagree it's as much of an issue as you do. and so does the majority of the public especially other muzzleloader hunters.
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It's maybe not an issue to you now because only a small percentage of MZ guys are grasping LRC types of rifles.
Your job and mine as seat holders is to be open to the forecast, not just this year or next.
If you cannot see where this particular season is headed, that worries me honestly.
Your position as a RAC member shouldn't be about fighting what YOU want, it should be focused on what is best in the long term.

I'm willing to remove my 12x turreted scope Jake, you're not.
 
JakeH said:
That's not an accurate assessment, I only had 2 days off to hunt, if I only had a muzzleloader tag I likely would of had the whole season off and made the most of it. Like I said before there are a thousand different variables that could have played out.

and I've already answered your question, no scope I likely would not have taken the shot that killed my deer. I've said multiple times there is an advantage to having a scope. What you trying to get at?

You guys keep badgering me like I don't see your side, I just don't agree with you that it has the impact you say it does.
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Hahah whatever. You’re absolutely right it doesn’t have the impact. Your words not mine the data isn’t there.
It only went up 2.5% so taking scopes off won’t be a problem then.
Because you know dam good and well they should have never allowed them on.
Look at the 15 year old girl she did just fine without a scope.
I’m done with this you answer my question clearly.
 
slamdunk said:
It's maybe not an issue to you now because only a small percentage of MZ guts are grasping LRC types of rifles.
Your job and mine as seat holders is to be open to the forecast, not just this year or next.
If you cannot see where this particular season is headed, that worries me honestly.
Your position as a RAC member shouldn't be about fighting what YOU want, it should be focused on what is best in the long term.
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My job on the RAC is to represent sportsman, the majority of sportsman do not agree with your position. As indicated by the emails i received and surveys that was conducted.

This is an extremely polarizing topic, and there really is only opinions as to what is right. We disagree on this issue slam.

slamdunk said:
I'm willing to remove my 12x turreted scope Jake, you're not.
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If the WB votes to remove them I will remove them, and I've always been willing to slam, who gave you the idea to try for a 4x compromise in the first place? That was me bud. You was talking about a 3x and I suggested doing 4x due to the availability of them over a 3x.
 
Elkrunning-Scared said:
Hahah whatever. You’re absolutely right it doesn’t have the impact. Your words not mine the data isn’t there.
It only went up 2.5% so taking scopes off won’t be a problem then.
Because you know dam good and well they should have never allowed them on.
Look at the 15 year old girl she did just fine without a scope.
I’m done with this you answer my question clearly.
Click to expand...

The deer he killed would be alive. Kind of a major difference in my opinion.
 
JakeH said:
My job on the RAC is to represent sportsman, the majority of sportsman do not agree with your position. As indicated by the emails i received and surveys that was conducted.

This is an extremely polarizing topic, and there really is only opinions as to what is right. We disagree on this issue slam.


If the WB votes to remove them I will remove them, and I've always been willing to slam, who gave you the idea to try for a 4x compromise in the first place? That was me bud. You was talking about a 3x and I suggested doing 4x due to the availability of them over a 3x.
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Jake, you've been around.


How many of those guys do you think really know what's out there from guys like LR, or Arrowhead, or Precision, or gunwerks, or fierce vs dudes who want to keep their 3x9?
 
hossblur said:
Nah.


Just checking in to coincidences.


I'm guessing if I got on the RAC then started supporting the Expo, a few folks would wonder what happened.

You jumped into muzzies last year, on the deep end, with a very expensive hard to get gun, topped it with a big, expensive scope, designed loads, even size bullets for it.

And THEN, everything you said previously, for a while, turns 180.

But no one should ask?
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You asked, and I answered multiple times, even stated it before you asked.

As far as my new purchase goes,
I had a cva accura that I've had forever, started having major issues with it last year while trying to work up a load for my LE tag. Couldn't get the damn thing to shoot consistently no matter what I tried. Even have a post in the muzzleloader forum documenting my issues. Decided to upgrade and bought a Paramount, wasn't hard to get at all, ordered it online from sportsman's and it showed up on my doorstep a few days later. I did have to work up a load and bullet for it, but nothing different then I was already doing with my optima when I was having issues with it. It's a great gun. I would recommend it.
 
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hossblur said:
Jake, you've been around.


How many of those guys do you think really know what's out there from guys like LR, or Arrowhead, or Precision, or gunwerks, or fierce vs dudes who want to keep their 3x9?
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I'm not going to speculate. 🤷‍♂️ I have no idea.

Man you guys are running me through the barrel today.
 
JakeH said:
My job on the RAC is to represent sportsman, the majority of sportsman do not agree with your position. As indicated by the emails i received and surveys that was conducted.

This is an extremely polarizing topic, and there really is only opinions as to what is right. We disagree on this issue slam.


If the WB votes to remove them I will remove them, and I've always been willing to slam, who gave you the idea to try for a 4x compromise in the first place? That was me bud. You was talking about a 3x and I suggested doing 4x due to the availability of them over a 3x.
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I remember our conversation Jake.
I based my recommendation off of multiple things.
Can you show us all here there is a 3x available on the market?
There are numerous 4x.
So yes....perhaps we did agree on low X scopes, but you aren't openly saying you would accept that, you are fighting to protect today's technology and accepting it to continue advancing.
"Majority" in which region?
Look into the future my friend, that's where we as political seat holders should be looking.
 
Is there even a line you'd draw?

I know how big a jump it was from my side hammer, to KnightvDisc, to CVA Accura.

It's a quantum leap from my CVA (Konus scope) to what your rocking. And what your rocking isn't all that cutting edge compared to what's new.

If .40 cal, muzzlebreak muzzies with 16x scopes aren't an issue, what is?
 
slamdunk said:
I remember our conversation Jake.
I based my recommendation off of multiple things.
Can you show us all here there is a 3x available on the market?
There are numerous 4x.
So yes....perhaps we did agree on low X scopes, but you aren't openly saying you would accept that, you are fighting to protect today's technology and accepting it to continue advancing.
"Majority" in which region?
Look into the future my friend, that's where we as political seat holders should be looking.
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I fully openly said I would accept that, but the TC shot it down and then went whole hog and banned all scopes, of course I'm going to disagree with that.

I only get emails for people that select to send them to the NE region, and a few that sent them directly and did not use the dwr page but I got emails from all over the state. I also watched all the meetings and when they sumerized the comments it was clear the majority didn't approve of the proposal.

Look Into the future? I will be honest I really don't see the point in putting a restriction on a muzzleloader when there is an unchecked rifle season right after, a week in some units and two weeks in others.

The TC did a good job last year with most of your suggestions, the electronics on scopes applied across the board to both rifles and muzzleloader and there was a similar recommendation for archery. The FLIR and thermal stuff has no business in big game hunting. I was all for those changes. But then to single out muzzleloader is to far in my opinion, at least the current proposal of nothing at all. Hell even if you had gone back to the old rules you would have had a lot more support. You guys over stepped and took it to far.

And again, none of this will do anything to help the deer herds across the state, fix that and none of this matters.

I have no idea how the WB will vote on this issue to many wild cards in the deck. 2 brand new members, and maybe a third if they get Wade's replacement put in. I guess we will see.

Anyway at this point there is no use in arguing it, it's out of all our hands at this point.
 
JakeH said:
I fully openly said I would accept that, but the TC shot it down and then went whole hog and banned all scopes, of course I'm going to disagree with that.

I only get emails for people that select to send them to the NE region, and a few that sent them directly and did not use the dwr page but I got emails from all over the state. I also watched all the meetings and when they sumerized the comments it was clear the majority didn't approve of the proposal.

Look Into the future? I will be honest I really don't see the point in putting a restriction on a muzzleloader when there is an unchecked rifle season right after, a week in some units and two weeks in others.

The TC did a good job last year with most of your suggestions, the electronics on scopes applied across the board to both rifles and muzzleloader and there was a similar recommendation for archery. The FLIR and thermal stuff has no business in big game hunting. I was all for those changes. But then to single out muzzleloader is to far in my opinion, at least the current proposal of nothing at all. Hell even if you had gone back to the old rules you would have had a lot more support. You guys over stepped and took it to far.

And again, none of this will do anything to help the deer herds across the state, fix that and none of this matters.

I have no idea how the WB will vote on this issue to many wild cards in the deck. 2 brand new members, and maybe a third if they get Wade's replacement put in. I guess we will see.

Anyway at this point there is no use in arguing it, it's out of all our hands at this point.
Click to expand...


But they are going to start "checking" the rifle season. That's the point. It does them no good to restrict rifle season, then just have a wide open single shot rifle season 3 weeks earlier.

It's either tactics or tags. Those are the only restrictions available. You think the heat is hot now, what till more tags get cut and more dudes sit home, and they see success pics of the guns that are being used.
 
We Need to Make Changes To Help Increase Deer Herd Numbers!

That Ain't Been Happening For How Many Years Now?

The Change Will Do NOTHING To Improve The Deer Herd Numbers!

Let's Say It Does Help Slightly?

You Telling Me The ALW/LongRangers Won't REAP The The Slight Gain?

Then You've Got The Argument of:There's Gonna Be More Wounded Deer Run Off & Rot Because Hunters Are Not As Lethal With NON-SCOPED Guns,Which I Agree With But How Do We Figure Accurate Numbers On That? You Can't!

Why Did They Allow Scopes On SmokePoles To Start With?

The Same Reason They Let You Put Anything You Want On Your StickFlippers & Long Range Rifles,That's Why!
 
elkassassin said:
We Need to Make Changes To Help Increase Deer Herd Numbers!

That Ain't Been Happening For How Many Years Now?

The Change Will Do NOTHING To Improve The Deer Herd Numbers!

Let's Say It Does Help Slightly?

You Telling Me The ALW/LongRangers Won't REAP The The Slight Gain?

Then You've Got The Argument of:There's Gonna Be More Wounded Deer Run Off & Rot Because Hunters Are Not As Lethal With NON-SCOPED Guns,Which I Agree With But How Do We Figure Accurate Numbers On That? You Can't!

Why Did They Allow Scopes On SmokePoles To Start With?

The Same Reason They Let You Put Anything You Want On Your StickFlippers & Long Range Rifles,That's Why!
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200% correct.

So we damn sure shouldn't fix it. A mistake got made, but we now have to live with it?

I was excited Jake got on the RAC. Especially knowing he was against LR muzzies. Until he wasn't, and now uses one.

You can't limit rifles. That genie is WAYYYY to far out. So, there will be tag cuts in the future. You will get your wish.

Problem is, same dudes will just pick up a single shot rifle, and not much changed.
 
WTH Do You Mean you Can't Limit Rifles?

What You Mean Is You Don't Want Anybody Taking Anything From Your Rifle,Right?


hossblur said:
200% correct.

So we damn sure shouldn't fix it. A mistake got made, but we now have to live with it?

I was excited Jake got on the RAC. Especially knowing he was against LR muzzies. Until he wasn't, and now uses one.

You can't limit rifles. That genie is WAYYYY to far out. So, there will be tag cuts in the future. You will get your wish.

Problem is, same dudes will just pick up a single shot rifle, and not much changed.
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Hey Hossy!

Maybe You Should Start Reading & Comprehending!

I've Mentioned Numerous Times About Increasing Deer Numbers!

But You Always SPIN It Your Way!

Increase Deer Numbers & Then We Could Maybe Issue A Few More Tags,You Ever Think About That?

Or We Can Just Keep Doing What We've Been Doing For 50+ Years & Wonder Why Tags Had To Be Cut!
 
Gonna Ask You A Question Hossy?

The Same Question I've Asked Niller Numorous Times & Still No Answer!

Are You As Mad At The DWR For Cutting 10'S of Thousands Of Tags As You Are At Me For Suggesting Cutting 10 Tags On The Henry Mountains When In F'N Fact The DWR Had Already Cut 10 Tags On That Unit & I Didn't Know It Until JakeH Posted It For Us?
 
elkassassin said:
WTH Do You Mean you Can't Limit Rifles?

What You Mean Is You Don't Want Anybody Taking Anything From Your Rifle,Right?
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What do you want.

Browning a bolt 06', 3x9 Leupold vari x
I shoot 165 grain bear claws.

You want the scope? Ok.

Make me shoot Core lokts? Ok

My 06' is more accurate than my uncle's pre 64. His pre 64 is more accurate than the Springfield's.

A Ruger American is more accurate than all of them. And the high end guns even more so.

How are you limiting a caliber from the last century?
 
elkassassin said:
Gonna Ask You A Question Hossy?

The Same Question I've Asked Niller Numorous Times & Still No Answer!

Are You As Mad At The DWR For Cutting 10'S of Thousands Of Tags As You Are At Me For Suggesting Cutting 10 Tags On The Henry Mountains When In F'N Fact The DWR Had Already Cut 10 Tags On That Unit & I Didn't Know It Until JakeH Posted It For Us?
Click to expand...


Don't care about the Henries. It's a nice example of other problems though, mainly corporate hunting issues
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Hossy!

Maybe You Should Start Reading & Comprehending!

I've Mentioned Numerous Times About Increasing Deer Numbers!

But You Always SPIN It Your Way!

Increase Deer Numbers & Then We Could Maybe Issue A Few More Tags,You Ever Think About That?

Or We Can Just Keep Doing What We've Been Doing For 50+ Years & Wonder Why Tags Had To Be Cut!
Click to expand...


We ve been cutting tags for 30. Show me the success
 
You want the scopes, go for it. I'm not sure there's enough gunsmiths in the state to drill and tap rifles for sights, so it might need a phase in.

I started with open sights.

I have a .303

If that's what you want, I'm in
 
There Could Be A Simple Change On Guns/Your Guns That'd Make Most BAWL Like Babies They Are!

The Same Change Proposed On SmokePoles!

And Admit It!

You'd Be BAWLING Too!


hossblur said:
What do you want.

Browning a bolt 06', 3x9 Leupold vari x
I shoot 165 grain bear claws.

You want the scope? Ok.

Make me shoot Core lokts? Ok

My 06' is more accurate than my uncle's pre 64. His pre 64 is more accurate than the Springfield's.

A Ruger American is more accurate than all of them. And the high end guns even more so.

How are you limiting a caliber from the last century?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
There Could Be A Simple Change On Guns/Your Guns That'd Make Most BAWL Like Babies They Are!

The Same Change Proposed On SmokePoles!

And Admit It!

You'd Be BAWLING Too!
Click to expand...


I'd bawl about sitting home.

3 years, the Bolder will be the "it" GS unit. Guaranteed.

Sorry man, I wouldnt. I'm old enough to have been in camps with zero scopes.
 
JakeH said:
Did you watch the DWRs proposal? They went over the numbers pretty good, not as far back as you did, but there are other variables you are not accounting for.

Also not sure why the covid years would have any affect on the numbers, probably had more to do with herd dynamics due to drought then anything to do with covid.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did, a few times and to make sure I had the timeframe correct as to when scopes became legal.

The assumption used to keep rifle hunts as a constant and then use that to see the change in muzzleloader success is an incorrect method to use. It would be like comparing the use of an electronic sight on a bow against a fixed power 4x scope on a muzzleloader. For the analysis to be correct, you have to compare the weapon specific of how it changed.

I said "covid" years. Severe drought certainly had an impact, which is why you wouldn't use those results to see what the change was. You also cannot use the "pre unit" years as there was a more significant change compared to when the state went to units the way they are now. However, during that same ["covid"] timeframe there was a drop in bucks harvested and hunters in the field.

The only data that is truly relevant is the statewide success for each year. That will account for all variables at play for each year and acts as a "smoothing coefficient".

The one constant across the board regardless of scope, unit, "covid", or drought was that the mean average days in the field was 4. This tells me that more mature deer were likely taken since scopes became legal.
 
Last edited:
I have another boy that will be getting a good rifle when he turns 16.

We've already looked at BLR.

What I won't be doing, is hooking him up with gunwerks, then scream about how the DWR "took something".

That's what's happened since 16 in muzzies
 
slamdunk said:
New Mexico went scopeless this year
Click to expand...

As I mentioned earlier on in another post on this thread, I'm looking forward to seeing what the results are after this year. NM has been mandatory harvest report for several years now, so that data will be as realistic as possible.

I'm not concerned about the results for elk as they are hunted with a muzzy the first week in October, kind of a no brainer really...

It's the deer and antelope. Hunters will definitely have to get closer to make an effective shot, and if hurried, it's so easy to miss an antelope at 200 yds open sight.
 
There is really no spinning nothing here. But as stated above we all know what the Muzzleloader hunt should be. They should of never allowed scopes on muzzleloader.

This crazy crap that is going on right now is Ridiculous. The push back on this is insane.
I'm so glad people cant hold there cool. There are some pretty dang nasty Emails that have flooded the board. Sounds familiar just like the trail camera issue.
I'm not to worried about it I think it will go back to the way it was.
way to welcome the new board members.

Just so everyone knows! The Board members are reading all of this. But this is pretty obvious what they need to do and that's get rid of scopes.

A old farmer told me something yesterday. If these guy want to keep them dam scopes. Then the gun should be fully unloaded in any vehicle.
It can only be loaded while your hunting. But not while your driving or riding an ATV or Side by side . Sounds like a great compromise.
 
Last edited:
A few things I keep hearing repeated that crack me up:

1. JakeH keeps referring to the “Majority of Hunters” are against the muzzy change. I’d love to hear the numbers on how many hunters you’re referencing. Let’s put your direct numbers next to the total big game hunters in the state who haven’t been asked their opinion. My guess is you’ve received a small number of complaints from the pro scope guys.

2. I keep hearing that rifles have evolved too far to restrict. This is total BS. We can restrict magnification on scopes very easily. Which is clearly the biggest problem on the rifle side.

3. I keep hearing that scopes on muzzys make for ethical shooting. Lol. What a bunch of BS. Scopes on muzzys have led to far more hunters becoming a muzzy hunter. Why? Because of the capability for the rifle to reach out further and increase their odds of harvesting good bucks. There is no doubt that there have been, at minimum, just as many unethical shots postscope as prescope.
 
lif said:
A few things I keep hearing repeated that crack me up:

1. JakeH keeps referring to the “Majority of Hunters” are against the muzzy change. I’d love to hear the numbers on how many hunters you’re referencing. Let’s put your direct numbers next to the total big game hunters in the state who haven’t been asked their opinion. My guess is you’ve received a small number of complaints from the pro scope guys.

2. I keep hearing that rifles have evolved too far to restrict. This is total BS. We can restrict magnification on scopes very easily. Which is clearly the biggest problem on the rifle side.

3. I keep hearing that scopes on muzzys make for ethical shooting. Lol. What a bunch of BS. Scopes on muzzys have led to far more hunters becoming a muzzy hunter. Why? Because of the capability for the rifle to reach out further and increase their odds of harvesting good bucks. There is no doubt that there have been, at minimum, just as many unethical shots postscope as prescope.
Click to expand...
I would also like to know how many as well.

I know a lot of the people in the hunting world and as of right now it's 60/40 not in favor of keeping scopes.

Now if I just count the Muzzy hunters then that changes to 60/40 in favor of keeping scopes.
But this is not just about Muzzy hunters everyone has a say in this.
 
Last edited:
slamdunk said:
I guarantee you all that in 3 years from now, my plan for the fall deer hunt will be to hunt Dutton, and it's a no brainer as to why.
Click to expand...
You have no idea how bad Dutton is right now. It will take more than lame restrictions to help. There are just not that many deer period. These silly restrictions aren't going to grow more deer, but knock yourself out.
 
1- The spin to remove scopes comes from special interest agendas period - not from the average hunter.
2- The western states alignment excuse is socialistic HOA mentality. More states in the US allow scopes than not.
3-DWR harvest data does not support scope removal.
4-The comparison of a muzzleloader being the equal of a centerfire rifle is an opinion and not fact.
5- I’m a former long range competitor- an avid shooter - and spend a lot of time at a local popular shooting range and visit and shoot at several 1000 plus yard facilities.
The best components with black powder substitutes are not coming close to what posters on this thread are saying. The average group size is 3-4” at 100 yards and much worse at 300 yards as these front stuffers are all over the place in speed consistency. Most are running 150 fps on speed variation.
6- Kevin Norman ( tech committee member representing SFW) is a disgrace with the comments he publicly made about his 1100 yard shot. He failed to mention his status as a sponsored competitive shooter- just a gool old country boy.

Lastly.
Theirs several additional reasons the pushback on scope removal is so high. I doubt all the board members are reading these posts as the board tasked the tech committee ( to do the dirty work and take the blame) for recommendations on future tech.
Read the mission statement of the tech committee and you will start to see where the Kevin Normans have been strategically placed.

Ballistic Out
 
Bigwiffy said:
You have no idea how bad Dutton is right now. It will take more than lame restrictions to help. There are just not that many deer period. These silly restrictions aren't going to grow more deer, but knock yourself out.
Click to expand...
Just trying to be hopeful ☺️
I've taken a few good bucks off that rockpile and have always been concerned ad to why there aren't more deer in general on there.
 
Ballistic said:
1- The spin to remove scopes comes from special interest agendas period - not from the average hunter.
Click to expand...
You are wrong here. I'm average and I understand what the Muzzleloader hunts about.
Ballistic said:
3-DWR harvest data does not support scope removal.
Click to expand...
Well I don't support scopes for a reason and Its not that reason at all.
Bigwiffy said:
You have no idea how bad Dutton is right now. It will take more than lame restrictions to help. There are just not that many deer period. These silly restrictions aren't going to grow more deer, but knock yourself out.
Click to expand...
For me it has nothing to do with growing deer. Look at what this hunt is intended to be. Now look at what it has become.

This is suppose to be a more challenging hunt correct? So why have scopes.
Why the push back on this proposal?

Because we all know its easier plain an simple with a scope to harvest and that's a fact.

Heaven for bid you have to close the distance a little.

I'm sorry but I stand behind with removing them.
 
Last edited:
lif said:
2. I keep hearing that rifles have evolved too far to restrict. This is total BS. We can restrict magnification on scopes very easily. Which is clearly the biggest problem on the rifle side.
Click to expand...
If no one dares to restrict electronic rangefinders, the only reasonable thing to do is restrict magnification on riflescopes going forward. Assuming this proposal is put in place.
 
Why are we even talking about saving bucks to grow our deer herds?

We haven't limited weapons in the past, we've cut 160k buck tags and are still declining in deer numbers.

How is limiting rifles capabilities going to rebuild your herds if not killing them hasn't?

THIS MZ ISSUE ISN'T ABOUT SAVING BUCKS

Here's the deal ladies and gentlemen-

Figure out how to grow some dang deer, then we'll have plenty of bucks to actually have the first real buck tag increase in decades.

The key to this is saving Does.
Does have fawns, fawns are the increase tool, not bucks.
 
Last edited:
Elkslayer2015 said:
You are wrong here. I'm average and I understand what the Muzzleloader hunts about.

Well I don't support scopes for a reason and Its not that reason at all.

For me it has nothing to do with growing deer. Look at what this hunt is intended to be. Now look at what it has become.

This is suppose to be a more challenging hunt correct? So why have scopes.
Why the push back on this proposal?

Because we all know its easier plain an simple with a scope to harvest and that's a fact.

Heaven for bid you have to close the distance a little.

I'm sorry but I stand behind with removing them.
Click to expand...
This!👆
Good lord it's nice that at least a few understand👏
 
Ballistic said:
1- The spin to remove scopes comes from special interest agendas period - not from the average hunter.
2- The western states alignment excuse is socialistic HOA mentality. More states in the US allow scopes than not.
3-DWR harvest data does not support scope removal.
4-The comparison of a muzzleloader being the equal of a centerfire rifle is an opinion and not fact.
5- I’m a former long range competitor- an avid shooter - and spend a lot of time at a local popular shooting range and visit and shoot at several 1000 plus yard facilities.
The best components with black powder substitutes are not coming close to what posters on this thread are saying. The average group size is 3-4” at 100 yards and much worse at 300 yards as these front stuffers are all over the place in speed consistency. Most are running 150 fps on speed variation.
6- Kevin Norman ( tech committee member representing SFW) is a disgrace with the comments he publicly made about his 1100 yard shot. He failed to mention his status as a sponsored competitive shooter- just a gool old country boy.

Lastly.
Theirs several additional reasons the pushback on scope removal is so high. I doubt all the board members are reading these posts as the board tasked the tech committee ( to do the dirty work and take the blame) for recommendations on future tech.
Read the mission statement of the tech committee and you will start to see where the Kevin Normans have been strategically placed.

Ballistic Out
Click to expand...


1. Scopes were put on by an ACTUAL special interest group.

2.Mule deer states are different than eastern. Eastern states are begging dudes to shoot more deer. Further, if your worried about socialism, stop hunting. The animals are held *by the citizens..."

3.Dwr harvest data didn't support putting them on.

4. A sub MOA muzzy @500yrds, is better than a majority of the rifles in service on a general unit. And that's not just one muzzy company claiming that

5. See #4

6. Google and YouTube both say otherwise

Same types were strategically placed to put them on. First day you've noticed $fw placement on RAC or WB?
 
slamdunk said:
Explain yourself please.

DH hunters are allowed 9 chances to harvest 2 deer, not including the Extended.

Am I missing something here?
Maybe my tryptophan has kicked in from the turkey today?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not above it.
Click to expand...

slamdunk said:
3 years of DH is 9 tags in a sense
Click to expand...

Just jabbing you a bit with you 9 permits comment.

DH's get 1 tag per year. 3 in a cycle.
They can hunt multiple seasons, but still only 1 permit.
I know it's semantics. But I like to argue.
 
elkassassin said:
Gonna Ask You A Question Hossy?

The Same Question I've Asked Niller Numorous Times & Still No Answer!
Click to expand...

Except I have answered, like 50 times. Yes I was mad.

Now go and reply to someone else that I haven’t answered your question.

It’s Christmas time Bessy, you better quit lying if you even want a piece of coal!
 
Elkslayer2015 said:
You are wrong here. I'm average and I understand what the Muzzleloader hunts about.

Well I don't support scopes for a reason and Its not that reason at all.

For me it has nothing to do with growing deer. Look at what this hunt is intended to be. Now look at what it has become.

This is suppose to be a more challenging hunt correct? So why have scopes.
Why the push back on this proposal?

Because we all know its easier plain an simple with a scope to harvest and that's a fact.

Heaven for bid you have to close the distance a little.

I'm sorry but I stand behind with removing them.
Click to expand...
I'm just stating a fact. Although Slam is optimistic, the reality is Dutton and Boulder is so far gone these "tests" won't amount to much.
 
I’m not sure what percentage of muzzleloader hunters are using scopes in Utah, but I’m sure it is very high. What do you really expect when you ask these hunters if they want new restrictions that prohibit scopes? We all want longer seasons, more bucks and bulls, bigger bucks and bulls, more opportunities, etc. I appreciate the fact that board members read public comments, but they should not assume that these comments reflect the views of all hunters and not every decision should be made by consensus of the hunters.
 
hossblur said:
Is there even a line you'd draw?

I know how big a jump it was from my side hammer, to KnightvDisc, to CVA Accura.

It's a quantum leap from my CVA (Konus scope) to what your rocking. And what your rocking isn't all that cutting edge compared to what's new.

If .40 cal, muzzlebreak muzzies with 16x scopes aren't an issue, what is?
Click to expand...
Thats why they should vote for 50cal full bore bullets, loose powder and a 4x max scope.
 
Bigwiffy said:
I'm just stating a fact. Although Slam is optimistic, the reality is Dutton and Boulder is so far gone these "tests" won't amount to much.
Click to expand...
I totally respect your views and we share a fondness for Dutton, what's your thoughts on what's happening there?
It's got a lot of winter range surrounding it, it's had extensive habitat projects, it's got a lot of remoteness.....where and why are the deer not thriving there?
 
slamdunk said:
I totally respect your views and we share a fondness for Dutton, what's your thoughts on what's happening there?
It's got a lot of winter range surrounding it, it's had extensive habitat projects, it's got a lot of remoteness.....where and why are the deer not thriving there?
Click to expand...
There never have been a lot of deer on the unit. The grind/chain on the south end actually hurt the habitat. Complete removal of vital cover, drought hasn't helped, but there never has been an abundance of deer to begin with. To your point there is tons of country that should hold animals and it just doesn't. The last 5-6 years it has completely tanked. Boulder is worse.
 
Bigwiffy said:
There never have been a lot of deer on the unit. The grind/chain on the south end actually hurt the habitat. Complete removal of vital cover, drought hasn't helped, but there never has been an abundance of deer to begin with. To your point there is tons of country that should hold animals and it just doesn't. The last 5-6 years it has completely tanked. Boulder is worse.
Click to expand...
Perhaps while we experiment with primitive weapons and point restrictions and shorten seasons we experiment with keeping the sheep off these units as well?
 
hossblur said:
As long as you separate out all the dedicated success, the rates are badly skewed.

I agree, I think they all go up, dramatically.

In doing so, they make everything prior, useless.
Click to expand...
Small sample size but two rounds of dedicated hunter for me and my hunting buddy and 4 out of 4 bucks were harvested on the muzzleloader hunt. Why go rifle hunting when you can get what you are looking for on the muzzleloader hunt. The mandatory harvest survey for DH’s should include which season they harvest their deer in so it can be added to the overall results.
 
yak4fish said:
Perhaps while we experiment with primitive weapons and point restrictions and shorten seasons we experiment with keeping the sheep off these units as well?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, Agriculture and free range grazing are an entirely different beast.
I love the thought though.
 

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