Pavant down the tube for deer

B

bugleb

Active Member
Messages
311
I have just returned from an archery deer hunt on the Pavant. I have hunted the Pavant almost every one of the past 58 years, seen its ups and downs, but never seen it anywhere near as bad as this year. The deer herd is down to 25% of the deer numbers on previous bad years and maybe 10% of the numbers on good years. I know we have just had a killer winter, but the question is "what is the DWR going to do about it"? My guess is "nothing". They will continue to sell tags and hope that it will somehow recover. It used to do that pretty well, but the herd is so low now that it will take some drastic action to make a recovery happen.

I would suggest closing the unit to all deer hunting for at least 5 years, maybe longer. You know the money hungry DWR won't do that, so I guess the days of decent hunting there are over. Maybe forever, but at least during the remainder of my life.

We were going to stay for 5 days or longer this year, but with the cold, wet, windy weather, which we could have tolerated, but worst of all practically no deer, we were not having any fun and left after 2 and a half days.

Grand total of deer spotted in 2-1/2 days:
25 - 30 or so does
0 fawns
3 bucks - a two point and two dinky little spikes.

No deer = no fun
 
Between Saturday AM/PM and Monday PM, I located 34 does, 6 fawns, and 3 bucks on public land. I did see 5 bucks inside the city limits, but we won't count them for this conversation. Many of the does with no fawns are still showing ribs. All together, I think the deer herd population on the Wasatch is down somewhere between 50-60% compared to 2022. It looks like we lost most of the fawns, many of the does, and almost all the bucks that would be 2.5 years old right now.

I don't think DWR can do very much to fix the population decline statewide that was caused by the winter of all winters. We just need 3+ years to rebuild the population naturally. It's a waiting game at this point.
 
bugleb said:
I have just returned from an archery deer hunt on the Pavant. I have hunted the Pavant almost every one of the past 58 years, seen its ups and downs, but never seen it anywhere near as bad as this year. The deer herd is down to 25% of the deer numbers on previous bad years and maybe 10% of the numbers on good years. I know we have just had a killer winter, but the question is "what is the DWR going to do about it"? My guess is "nothing". They will continue to sell tags and hope that it will somehow recover. It used to do that pretty well, but the herd is so low now that it will take some drastic action to make a recovery happen.

I would suggest closing the unit to all deer hunting for at least 5 years, maybe longer. You know the money hungry DWR won't do that, so I guess the days of decent hunting there are over. Maybe forever, but at least during the remainder of my life.

We were going to stay for 5 days or longer this year, but with the cold, wet, windy weather, which we could have tolerated, but worst of all practically no deer, we were not having any fun and left after 2 and a half days.

Grand total of deer spotted in 2-1/2 days:
25 - 30 or so does
0 fawns
3 bucks - a two point and two dinky little spikes.

No deer = no fun
Click to expand...


I couldn't help but notice that I don't have a video of you tearing up your tag BEFORE the season.
 
Does That Show How BLIND We Are?

I Remember When Several Units Were Shut Down!

Maybe You're Not Old Enough To Remember That Hossy?

And I Quote:

We ain't calling for units to be shut down

Nope!

The Deer Herd Must Be Doing Magnificent!








hossblur said:
We ain't calling for units to be shut down
Click to expand...
 
The Henries were shut down…AND happened to get several years of great conditions for growing deer herds.

you could have shut down ANY unit for the past 5 years, opened it up this weekend, and I bet the results would be pretty much the same as now. You might see some big bucks from the road like you wanted, but the herd would still be in the crapper. Drought and winter are crushing deer herds.

If you are happy with getting a general tag every 5-10 years to maybe see a few more bucks from the road, by all means SHUT IT DOWN
 
If They Were Managed Properly There'd Never Be A Need To Shut Them Down Other Than Weather Related Issues!

When HELL-F'N-RIGHT Is Acknowledged Maybe Something Will Change!

Until Then!

Just Keep POUNDIN Them!

willfrye027 said:
The Henries were shut down…AND happened to get several years of great conditions for growing deer herds.

you could have shut down ANY unit for the past 5 years, opened it up this weekend, and I bet the results would be pretty much the same as now. You might see some big bucks from the road like you wanted, but the herd would still be in the crapper. Drought and winter are crushing deer herds.

If you are happy with getting a general tag every 5-10 years to maybe see a few more bucks from the road, by all means SHUT IT DOWN
Click to expand...
 
I feel like I've gained a broader view on all of this sort of thing. There's no doubt Utah manages for a low buck to doe ratio, the lowest in the entire west. I do think limiting tags would increase buck quality. However, people are already having to wait a long time to hunt deer even on the general tags. I think there's decent bucks to be had on most units, if you put in the work. However, as for the entire deer herd, what the dwr can do is limited. We are somewhat at the mercy of mother nature. If it was for me I would drop the elk population down to almost nothing?. Let's be deer state.
 
Elkslayer said:
Anything posted negative about herd numbers and bad management and here comes elkass with the same bitching and moaning.
Click to expand...
I’ll add some weigh to elkassassin’s b!tching and moaning.

I’ll start out by suggesting they need shove bucks don’t have fawns ideology up their asses. Add to that, decline, decline, decline, decline until the tipping point. My claim is we passed it years ago. The last winter was just the preverbal the stabbing of the wigglers.
 
Hey Lumpy!

I''ll Have Hossy Bend Over For You!

To Be Contestant # 1!



2lumpy said:
I’ll add some weigh to elkassassin’s b!tching and moaning.

I’ll start out by suggesting they need shove bucks don’t have fawns ideology up their asses. Add to that, decline, decline, decline, decline until the tipping point. My claim is we passed it years ago. The last winter was just the preverbal the stabbing of the wigglers.
Click to expand...
 
This is how I feel about a few general areas I've hunted over the years. When I was a kid, I used to tag along with my dad and uncles in the Uintas. We would see 4-points most days of those trips. Admittedly they may not have been Monsters, but I remember thinking they were big bucks. Those days fizzled out decades ago. 4-points are few and far between up there these days.

This is also true of Boulder where I spent the early 2000's chasing nice bucks with a bow. Last time I hunted there, we spent 5 days and only saw one buck that was a 4 point, and he was in someone's camp doing what looked like handstands.

It's all trending down. There are some who have their honey holes and the means and ability to scout it and hunt it for good bucks regularly, but casual "deer camp" where there's a fire between everyone's tents and trailers each night and a deer or two killed most days doesn't seem to be feasible these days on public land.
 
schoolhousegrizz said:
I feel like I've gained a broader view on all of this sort of thing. There's no doubt Utah manages for a low buck to doe ratio, the lowest in the entire west. I do think limiting tags would increase buck quality. However, people are already having to wait a long time to hunt deer even on the general tags. I think there's decent bucks to be had on most units, if you put in the work. However, as for the entire deer herd, what the dwr can do is limited. We are somewhat at the mercy of mother nature. If it was for me I would drop the elk population down to almost nothing?. Let's be deer state.
Click to expand...


So we kill off the successful species to watch the non successful species continue to struggle?

Great plan!!????
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Lumpy!

I''ll Have Hossy Bend Over For You!

To Be Contestant # 1!
Click to expand...

Ever notice, you and Lumpy throw out so many "facts" that it's 100% impossible for you to be wrong?

None of them deal with reality.

Freeways, 5 million people, end of widespread poisoning of predators.

Not a thing DWR can do about it.

But, as a side note.

I'm still waiting for my first video, EVER.

I guarantee neither Bess or Lumpy has any intention of not being in the field this year.
Until either are ready to back up your mouths with action, your just that old woman who is always
 
hossblur said:
So we kill off the successful species to watch the non successful species continue to struggle?

Great plan!!????
Click to expand...
Haha, I guess you didn't notice the smiley face where I was realizing it was an outrageous statement. However, I would be in favor of harvesting higher elk numbers if it would help the deer. Which it seems like it would. Yes we could be harder on the elk, they are going to survive much better. Relax Hossy, Relax.
 
2lumpy said:
I’ll add some weigh to elkassassin’s b!tching and moaning.

I’ll start out by suggesting they need shove bucks don’t have fawns ideology up their asses. Add to that, decline, decline, decline, decline until the tipping point. My claim is we passed it years ago. The last winter was just the preverbal the stabbing of the wigglers.
Click to expand...


Ever wonder why if bucks are such an important thing in deer herds, mother nature has them expend their energy, fat reserves, and get injured, right as winter is coming on? Setting them up for higher rates of death and predation?

It's almost as if mother nature, God, Allah, or whoever, is of the opinion that bucks are pretty useless once they've bred does?
 
Every Time I Think About The RAM That Lowered His Head & Was Gonna Take Me!

It Reminds Me Of Founders Mountain Goat Hunt Expedition!

I Couldn't Of Shot That Ram Even If I Had Been Hunting!

Well,Unless I Woulda Had To!:D
 
bugleb said:
I have just returned from an archery deer hunt on the Pavant. I have hunted the Pavant almost every one of the past 58 years, seen its ups and downs, but never seen it anywhere near as bad as this year. The deer herd is down to 25% of the deer numbers on previous bad years and maybe 10% of the numbers on good years. I know we have just had a killer winter, but the question is "what is the DWR going to do about it"? My guess is "nothing". They will continue to sell tags and hope that it will somehow recover. It used to do that pretty well, but the herd is so low now that it will take some drastic action to make a recovery happen.

I would suggest closing the unit to all deer hunting for at least 5 years, maybe longer. You know the money hungry DWR won't do that, so I guess the days of decent hunting there are over. Maybe forever, but at least during the remainder of my life.

We were going to stay for 5 days or longer this year, but with the cold, wet, windy weather, which we could have tolerated, but worst of all practically no deer, we were not having any fun and left after 2 and a half days.

Grand total of deer spotted in 2-1/2 days:
25 - 30 or so does
0 fawns
3 bucks - a two point and two dinky little spikes.

No deer = no fun
Click to expand...
I called home and told my wife we could be coming home early. She said "you might as well stay until you get one, then you won't have to go back". I told her not to worry about that, we won't be coming back this year. I expected a poor hunt this year, but this was rediculous. If I had known how bad it would be, I would have tore up my tag and stayed home and saved the gas and groceries money.
 
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bugleb said:
I called home and told my wife we could be coming home early. She said "you might as well stay until you get one, then you won't have to go back". I told her not to worry about that, we won't be coming back this year. I expected a poor hunt this year, but this was rediculous. If I had known how bad it would be, I would have tore up my tag and stayed home and saved the gas and groceries money.
Click to expand...
Sounds a lot like a post about an antelope hunt on the Parker Unit a number of years ago. When they’re not there, they’re not there.

But don’t despair if someone kills a monster on the Pahvant this year anyway. A monster here and there is not evidence of a healthy population.
 
I'd Of took Your Wife's Advice!

Only It Would Have Been My Own Advice!

I'd Of POUNDED It Till The End!

And Then Vented!:D

Huntin Isn't Cheap & Never Has Been!

You Know The Saying:

A Bad Day Of Hunting Usually Beats A Good Day At Work!

Just Trying To Cheer You Up A Little!



bugleb said:
I called home and told my wife we could be coming home early. She said "you might as well stay until you get one, then you won't have to go back". I told her not to worry about that, we won't be coming back this year. I expected a poor hunt this year, but this was rediculous. If I had known how bad it would be, I would have tore up my tag and stayed home and saved the gas and groceries money.
Click to expand...
 
bugleb said:
I called home and told my wife we could be coming home early. She said "you might as well stay until you get one, then you won't have to go back". I told her not to worry about that, we won't be coming back this year. I expected a poor hunt this year, but this was rediculous. If I had known how bad it would be, I would have tore up my tag and stayed home and saved the gas and groceries money.
Click to expand...

This is the mindset I truly don't get.

You get so few chances in your life to get away and pursue a passion, and you'd "rather stayed home and saved the gas......."?

When your on your way out of this world, do you think you'll remember fondly that gallon of gas or bowl of soup?

And I'm not being personal, I read similar things from dudes in here all the time, usually the cut tag crowd.

When did we as hunters lose the love of hunting, passion for being outdoors in the name of horns?

And I say this as a guy who hunts the North Slope, so I get, not seeing tons of critters.

No one is hunting deer strictly for food to start with, so the monetary investment for deer is always deep in the red.
 
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Tag cuts will work! Just like they have for the last 40 years.

Just cut the number of tags you issue, that will fix it!

The DWR just keeps giving more and more tags cause they are only about $$$!

Some people will never learn…
 
hossblur said:
Ever wonder why if bucks are such an important thing in deer herds, mother nature has them expend their energy, fat reserves, and get injured, right as winter is coming on? Setting them up for higher rates of death and predation?

It's almost as if mother nature, God, Allah, or whoever, is of the opinion that bucks are pretty useless once they've bred does?
Click to expand...
So where do the bucks in November come from that aren't there in August?
 
These guys are talking about how few deer they're seeing in the field right now. If there are 3 bucks to 30 does in August, how are you going to get all the does bred in November?
 
Per wildlife biologists, it takes 5 bucks to successfully breed 100 does. Get below that and does don't get bred. I'm confident that the vast majority of in heat does will get bred on the Pahvant this November
 
Airborne said:
Per wildlife biologists, it takes 5 bucks to successfully breed 100 does. Get below that and does don't get bred. I'm confident that the vast majority of in heat does will get bred on the Pahvant this November
Click to expand...
Yeah, right. But at what density of deer? 100 deer per square mile or 10 deer per square mile? Or do the biologists you're citing with no evidence think it doesn't matter?
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Yeah, right. But at what density of deer? 100 deer per square mile or 10 deer per square mile? Or do the biologists you're citing with no evidence think it doesn't matter?
Click to expand...
You realize deer aren't static right? If your hunting archery in Aug where the does are bred in Nov, I feel your doing it wrong.

I live 9 miles from AI.

Every fall the town does get bred by bucks off AI. Seen the same 3 bucks the last 3 years.

And to do that they cross 9 miles of mudflat with little cover to do it.



The Wasatch Front late Archery is a premier hunt because the high country bucks travel dozens and dozens of miles to breed does from the foothills.

This is why I issue the video challenge.

To separate the bitchers from guys who really believe.

I've never seen a video, so we have a lot of dudes bitching, but hunting.
 
@idahomuleyhunter From your posted research paper below (bolded). I didn't read it all (don't have time right now but I appreciate you posting it). Looks like 14 bucks per 100 does got the job done. I think the Pahvant has at least that buck to doe ratio. Again this is a great paper and I appreciate you posting it!


During December 2011the Monroe Unit had one of the lowest buck-to-doe ratios in the state of Utah—14 bucks per 100 does. The Piceance Basin is located in western Colorado and is managed by Colorado Parks andWildlife as game management unit 22 (GMU 22; 39˚48’ - 40˚08’ N latitude), which is withindata analysis unit 7 (DAU-7). The sex ratio estimate for this area of Colorado was 26 bucks per100 does in December of 2011.


We captured 69 female mule deer at Monroe Mountain, UT and 120 female mule deer atPiceance Basin, CO. Ultrasonography revealed that 68 of 69 (98.6%) of the Monroe females and116 of 120 (96.6%) of the Piceance females were pregnant. These rates of pregnancy were notdifferent between populations (z = -0.821; p = 0.794).
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Here's the research paper you think you understand, read it some time and see if you can identify a few problems.
Click to expand...

I got through some, I'll finish it as it's not one I've seen.

But through what I read


Rates of pregnancy did not differ between populations with relatively high and low
buck:doe ratios. This finding indicates that mate limitation under the allee effect (which implies
that reproduction is decreased because the density of individuals of the opposite sex is not high
enough) is not occurring at the buck:doe ratios that we sampled and most adult females in both
populations had mating opportunities. As we performed ultrasounds in early March it is also
possible that a higher percentage of females (than we documented) were originally impregnated
(Robinette et al. 1955
 
If I can find it I'll drop the studies that show climate change(not the Al Gore kind)lead to massive faen losses.

In short, the timing of green up needs to correspond with fawns dropping. But because it's not a gradual green up headed up the mountain, and has become a early melt off, or rapid melt off, it's lead to staggering birth days.

Lots of fawns born at same time(elk too) means there's more fawns than predators can eat. By staggering the births, it gives predators more time to "digest".

Late births, mean late estrous cycles meaning late births.

Now, having said that, Utah does manage lower b:d ratio. But the states surrounding us are experiencing the same declines. Which says to me, it's an ecosystem or species issue, not a narrow area issue. Hard to argue that every state is greedy, or stupid, or whatever.

I use AI for a reason. High b:d ratio, 2 tags, relatively stagnant populations.

Further #2, the "golden age" was a time when there were 250,000 tags in Utah, lots of poaching on top of that. No habitat projects. The landscape was run for sheep first, cows second. So it's almost asinine to pretend "bad management" is the cause when the greatest couple deer decades were at a time of no management.

Notice $fw has to find this study. The more tags you cut, the less study money, the more dependent DWR is on pimping off tags.
 
hossblur said:
If I can find it I'll drop the studies that show climate change(not the Al Gore kind)lead to massive faen losses.

In short, the timing of green up needs to correspond with fawns dropping. But because it's not a gradual green up headed up the mountain, and has become a early melt off, or rapid melt off, it's lead to staggering birth days.

Lots of fawns born at same time(elk too) means there's more fawns than predators can eat. By staggering the births, it gives predators more time to "digest".

Late births, mean late estrous cycles meaning late births.

Now, having said that, Utah does manage lower b:d ratio. But the states surrounding us are experiencing the same declines. Which says to me, it's an ecosystem or species issue, not a narrow area issue. Hard to argue that every state is greedy, or stupid, or whatever.

I use AI for a reason. High b:d ratio, 2 tags, relatively stagnant populations.

Further #2, the "golden age" was a time when there were 250,000 tags in Utah, lots of poaching on top of that. No habitat projects. The landscape was run for sheep first, cows second. So it's almost asinine to pretend "bad management" is the cause when the greatest couple deer decades were at a time of no management.

Notice $fw has to find this study. The more tags you cut, the less study money, the more dependent DWR is on pimping off tags.
Click to expand...
"But the states surrounding us are experiencing the same declines."

I agree with this, which also indicates is probably more habitat(which could mean predation) than herd. As there are a lot of varying b:d ratios experiencing the same thing.

the "golden age" was a time when there were 250,000 tags in Utah, lots of poaching on top of that
Click to expand...

We also have a tendency of describing the "golden ages" in various places as normal, or average, with no evidence to show that's the case. I remember the "golden age" of elk hunting in the bitterroots, the same bitterroots lewis and clark almost starved to death in. Those "golden age" numbers may well have been(probably were) the result of abnormal conditions and the herd numbers were wildly inflated.
 
Because I'm a dork and read all this kind of crap I have an interesting news feed on Google.

In the last week or so there are articles from Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah,Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, Montana all discussing the decline in mule deer.

All different b:d ratios, hunt seasons, hunt lengths, hunt dates, etc, etc.

That's a lot of greedy, dumbfolks, using bad science, poor science, no science, in a lot of different states,

Or,

It's the species problem as a whole
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
"But the states surrounding us are experiencing the same declines."

I agree with this, which also indicates is probably more habitat(which could mean predation) than herd. As there are a lot of varying b:d ratios experiencing the same thing.




We also have a tendency of describing the "golden ages" in various places as normal, or average, with no evidence to show that's the case. I remember the "golden age" of elk hunting in the bitterroots, the same bitterroots lewis and clark almost starved to death in. Those "golden age" numbers may well have been(probably were) the result of abnormal conditions and the herd numbers were wildly inflated.
Click to expand...


We agree on most everything you've said.

But for Utah, your first post was probably the biggest reason.

The city from Tremonton to Nephi, and I-15 that cuts the state from mtn to winter range, leads to the most loss, by far
 
"Rates of pregnancy did not differ between populations with relatively high and low
buck:doe ratios"

"his common scenario is typifiedfor mule deer in Utah, where estimated buck:doe ratios range from 6 – 28 males per 100 femalesacross most management units (except a few with relatively limited harvest where buck:doeratios are as high as 60:100), signifying a major shift from a sex ratio at birth that is close to50:50 (Bernales et al. 2011)."

If the range is 6-28, then why is 14 considered low??? This is never addressed.

Author also never address b:d ratio normalized by population density for a given habitat. Author uses "proportion"(a qualitative measure) and "capacity"(a quantitative measure) interchangeably and incorrectly:

"For example, increasing the proportion of females in a population generally increases the reproductive capacity of that population as long as there are adequate numbers of males for breeding (Caughley 1977)."

The proportion of females has nothing to do with capacity. Reproductive capacity is simply the number of breeding aged females.
 
The study also glosses over when(which cycle), does were bred in. The data weren't collected and it was decreed that because the does fawned about the same time they must have all conceived at the same time, with no impact on fawn mortality. There is no evidence to support this conclusion. Combine this with the fact that 50% of the preg tested does were thrown from the study because live births could not be determined. What proportion of these were aborted? What proportion of that is due to late conception? Just because fawning happens in a tight window doesn't mean gestation was the same for all does. Anyone who's had cows(or any animal) knows gestation can vary significantly. So is it true none of these does are being bred during a second estrus cycle and experiencing shorter gestation? This is being asserted without evidence.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
The study also glosses over when(which cycle), does were bred in. The data weren't collected and it was decreed that because the does fawned about the same time they must have all conceived at the same time, with no impact on fawn mortality. There is no evidence to support this conclusion. Combine this with the fact that 50% of the preg tested does were thrown from the study because live births could not be determined. What proportion of these were aborted? What proportion of that is due to late conception? Just because fawning happens in a tight window doesn't mean gestation was the same for all does. Anyone who's had cows(or any animal) knows gestation can vary significantly. So is it true none of these does are being bred during a second estrus cycle and experiencing shorter gestation? This is being asserted without evidence.
Click to expand...


That's where, and I want to say it was a USU study, talking about environmental conditions affecting estrous cycles, was the major driver of when does are bred, not availability of bucks.

But the collar studies that are underway that show deer are in constant movement, make me think area buck availability only matters as long as a doe in heat is in the area?

It's nice to read someone with research or data, and not the usual "the old timers were magicians" crap. Thanks for the study, I'll get on it later
 
And Here The Supposed Pro's Are Talking Deer Management That Don't Know WTF They Are Talking About Once Again!

Buck To Doe Management!

GEEZUS!

Let's Start Doing Something To Increase Deer Numbers And PISS ON BS BUCK TO DOE MANAGEMENT!

Hey Hossy!

Look Over There!

Ya?

There's gotta Be 17 or 18 Deer In That BIG Herd!

Ya?

The Good News is there's 2 PISSCUTTER Bucks In The Bunch!

Ya!

GAWD-DAMNED!

These Deer Here In DRATville Are Doing SWELL!

Uh Huh!

Carry On With The BS!
 
hossblur said:
Our issue isn't unbred does. Our problem fawns being alive the next summer
Click to expand...
This……
Seems to be more rocket science than common sense. I’ve been to a few places this year and seen a few deer but emphasis on not seeing any fawns.
I went out to Vernon a couple of weeks ago, and witnessed an incredible scene of Does with twins everywhere…..all the while coyotes howling in the background lol. Anyway, I can’t explain it.
 
The problem at Pavant, and probably many other areas in the state right now, is not just the buck to doe ratio, but the low overall number of deer, period. The numbers is so low that it would take a long long time to recover to any reasonable level even if they all survive. We know that will never happen with the road kill and predators that need to eat.

The reason we gave up and went home early is that the hurricane in California messed up the weather here. It was bitter cold, windy and wet the whole time we were there. That, coupled with few deer, almost no deer, made it no fun, especially for the kids and grandkids. I would have felt bad to kill any deer there with the few that remain.

I'm too old to enjoy wading through wet under brush any more, so that limited my options under the conditions, and even though I am retired, I have livestock and a large garden that could use my attention, plus the Wyoming deer and elk archery seasons open on Sept 1. My son and his family have 10 elk tags and five deer tags between them. Somebody om here said the worst day hunting is better than the best day at work. I say the worst day hunting in Wyoming is better than the best day in Utah.
 
elkassassin said:
And Here The Supposed Pro's Are Talking Deer Management That Don't Know WTF They Are Talking About Once Again!

Buck To Doe Management!

GEEZUS!

Let's Start Doing Something To Increase Deer Numbers And PISS ON BS BUCK TO DOE MANAGEMENT!

Hey Hossy!

Look Over There!

Ya?

There's gotta Be 17 or 18 Deer In That BIG Herd!

Ya?

The Good News is there's 2 PISSCUTTER Bucks In The Bunch!

Ya!

GAWD-DAMNED!

These Deer Here In DRATville Are Doing SWELL!

Uh Huh!

Carry On With The BS!
Click to expand...


Why do you and your family have tags?
 
bugleb said:
The problem at Pavant, and probably many other areas in the state right now, is not just the buck to doe ratio, but the low overall number of deer, period. The numbers is so low that it would take a long long time to recover to any reasonable level even if they all survive. We know that will never happen with the road kill and predators that need to eat.

The reason we gave up and went home early is that the hurricane in California messed up the weather here. It was bitter cold, windy and wet the whole time we were there. That, coupled with few deer, almost no deer, made it no fun, especially for the kids and grandkids. I would have felt bad to kill any deer there with the few that remain.

I'm too old to enjoy wading through wet under brush any more, so that limited my options under the conditions, and even though I am retired, I have livestock and a large garden that could use my attention, plus the Wyoming deer and elk archery seasons open on Sept 1. My son and his family have 10 elk tags and five deer tags between them. Somebody om here said the worst day hunting is better than the best day at work. I say the worst day hunting in Wyoming is better than the best day in Utah.
Click to expand...


Good luck, but from what I'm reading about Wyoming, you might want to save the gas
 
South Slope Vernal is pathetic too. This is the year it loses its 'highest success rate in the state" award.
 
My My My!

How Short The Memory Is Getting!

You OK hawky?

You've Got Me Worried!

As Bad As You Hated It, I Can't Believe You Don't Remember It?

HELL-F'N-RIGHT Helped Get Your F'N SIG Removed Off Of Your 300!

Straight Out Of HELL-F'N-RIGHT:

Legal Archery Equipment will be Limited to Recurves Only!

Legal Muzzle-loaders will be Hawkins & Flintlocks only!

Legal Rifles will only Have Scopes with a Maximum Magnification of 4 Power!






Hawkeye said:
Elkster, please re-post your 50-point fictional thesis entitled, “HELL-F'N-RIGHT.” I want to see if it includes limits on technology, including muzzleloader scopes. Thank you.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
The study also glosses over when(which cycle), does were bred in. The data weren't collected and it was decreed that because the does fawned about the same time they must have all conceived at the same time, with no impact on fawn mortality. There is no evidence to support this conclusion. Combine this with the fact that 50% of the preg tested does were thrown from the study because live births could not be determined. What proportion of these were aborted? What proportion of that is due to late conception? Just because fawning happens in a tight window doesn't mean gestation was the same for all does. Anyone who's had cows(or any animal) knows gestation can vary significantly. So is it true none of these does are being bred during a second estrus cycle and experiencing shorter gestation? This is being asserted without evidence.
Click to expand...
Yes, sometimes I'm more interested in what the study DIDN'T say compared to what it did say.
 
Elknut33 said:
I may be off base here but, I thought the primary focus of the Pahvant was elk management. If that is in fact the case, it could be why the deer aren't getting much attention from the WB.
Click to expand...
They used to kill governors and sportsmen tags deer on the pahvant. It’s been on the decline for more than a decade. They should shut down the entire state for five years. Including LE units. No doubt that they won’t but they should. Even the elk on the Pavant are only a shell of what they were. The only thing that matters is the all mighty dollar. The dwr is to stupid to realize that they are managing themselves right out of a job. Anyone notice the fewer animals the employees they have to manage them. There are no doubt ways to fix the problems. However they along with most hunters are not willing to even consider the solutions because they are not what they want to hear. It’s a god damn joke. Be honest, they herd counts are so inflated you’d think Biden was doing the counting. A blind man can see that. A damn joke
 
No Whining At All!

Make It An EQUAL Take Across The Board Of All 3 Weapon Types & We're Good!

I Know!

It's Still A Bittch!

Quite A Few Top End Utah Bucks Being Taken By StickFlippers!

Do You Think They Were Fred Bear Bows Being Used?





Hawkeye said:
Not really. You have not heard me complaining about the recent limits on technology. Most of the whining I’ve heard has come from the basin.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Most Of Them Bucks Didn't Come From The Basin Niller!

But I Do Know Of One Exception!



Vanilla said:
Fake news!

I’ve got a good friend from the Basin I trust implicitly that constantly tells me there are no good animals left in Utah. Haven’t been for 40 years!
Click to expand...
 
Giddyup said:
They used to kill governors and sportsmen tags deer on the pahvant. It’s been on the decline for more than a decade. They should shut down the entire state for five years. Including LE units. No doubt that they won’t but they should. Even the elk on the Pavant are only a shell of what they were. The only thing that matters is the all mighty dollar. The dwr is to stupid to realize that they are managing themselves right out of a job. Anyone notice the fewer animals the employees they have to manage them. There are no doubt ways to fix the problems. However they along with most hunters are not willing to even consider the solutions because they are not what they want to hear. It’s a god damn joke. Be honest, they herd counts are so inflated you’d think Biden was doing the counting. A blind man can see that. A damn joke
Click to expand...


How many deer tags do you and your family have this year?
 
Giddyup said:
They used to kill governors and sportsmen tags deer on the pahvant. It’s been on the decline for more than a decade. They should shut down the entire state for five years. Including LE units. No doubt that they won’t but they should. Even the elk on the Pavant are only a shell of what they were. The only thing that matters is the all mighty dollar. The dwr is to stupid to realize that they are managing themselves right out of a job. Anyone notice the fewer animals the employees they have to manage them. There are no doubt ways to fix the problems. However they along with most hunters are not willing to even consider the solutions because they are not what they want to hear. It’s a god damn joke. Be honest, they herd counts are so inflated you’d think Biden was doing the counting. A blind man can see that. A damn joke
Click to expand...


Did I miss something, did the Pahvant become a OTC bull tag?

How much money is made from the Pahvant? And WHO makes it? Sure as hell isn't the DWR profiting 6 figures off a tag there. Ain't the DWR paying armies of spotters. Ain't the DWR auctioning off Pahvant rags at banquets and expos.

Pretty hilarious to see the words "greed" and DWR combined in Pahvant elk discussion.

The guides appreciate your spin
 
Oh They Might Be 'RAGS' By Now!

hossblur said:
Did I miss something, did the Pahvant become a OTC bull tag?

How much money is made from the Pahvant? And WHO makes it? Sure as hell isn't the DWR profiting 6 figures off a tag there. Ain't the DWR paying armies of spotters. Ain't the DWR auctioning off Pahvant rags at banquets and expos.

Pretty hilarious to see the words "greed" and DWR combined in Pahvant elk discussion.

The guides appreciate your spin
Click to expand...
 
hossblur said:
Did I miss something, did the Pahvant become a OTC bull tag?

How much money is made from the Pahvant? And WHO makes it? Sure as hell isn't the DWR profiting 6 figures off a tag there. Ain't the DWR paying armies of spotters. Ain't the DWR auctioning off Pahvant rags at banquets and expos.

Pretty hilarious to see the words "greed" and DWR combined in Pahvant elk discussion.

The guides appreciate your spin
Click to expand...
Not spin, based on facts. Considering I’ve had a front row seat for years. I said nothing about otc Elk on the pahvant just that the quality has taken a nose dive. That is directly related to adding more hunts/more tags. Hence more money for dwr
 
But Don't Ever Mention Cutting Any Tags!

I Mentioned Cutting 10 Measly F'N Tags & The KING & Hossy About Had A Come-Apart!
 
hossblur said:
You realize deer aren't static right? If your hunting archery in Aug where the does are bred in Nov, I feel your doing it wrong.

I live 9 miles from AI.

Every fall the town does get bred by bucks off AI. Seen the same 3 bucks the last 3 years.

And to do that they cross 9 miles of mudflat with little cover to do it.



The Wasatch Front late Archery is a premier hunt because the high country bucks travel dozens and dozens of miles to breed does from the foothills.

This is why I issue the video challenge.

To separate the bitchers from guys who really believe.

I've never seen a video, so we have a lot of dudes bitching, but hunting.
Click to expand...
Haha you lost me at the late archery front hunt is a "premier" hunt.
 
elkassassin said:
My My My!

How Short The Memory Is Getting!

You OK hawky?

You've Got Me Worried!

As Bad As You Hated It, I Can't Believe You Don't Remember It?

HELL-F'N-RIGHT Helped Get Your F'N SIG Removed Off Of Your 300!

Straight Out Of HELL-F'N-RIGHT:

Legal Archery Equipment will be Limited to Recurves Only!

Legal Muzzle-loaders will be Hawkins & Flintlocks only!

Legal Rifles will only Have Scopes with a Maximum Magnification of 4 Power!
Click to expand...
Don’t tease us like that EA!
Those technology restrictions sound like heaven.
Hmmmm, with a change like that I bet a guy could have a Deer tag every year anywhere in the State…..possibly even buying the tag over the counter each year.
 
bugleb said:
I know we have just had a killer winter, but the question is "what is the DWR going to do about it"? My guess is "nothing". They will continue to sell tags and hope that it will somehow recover. It used to do that pretty well, but the herd is so low now that it will take some drastic action to make a recovery happen.

I would suggest closing the unit to all deer hunting for at least 5 years, maybe longer. You know the money hungry DWR won't do that, so I guess the days of decent hunting there are over. Maybe forever, but at least during the remainder of my life.
Click to expand...

Not the first time hunting a species would be closed to hunting for a time so a local population can rebound.

It's the right thing to do.
 
So?

We Manage Game Herds So POORLY We Have To Close Units?

Ya!

We've Seen It Before!

How Bout Doing Something To Improve Units Long Before They Have To Be CLOSED?

It's UN-F'N-FIXABLE!

There Will Never Be Changes Made Harsh Enough To Help Fix It!

I Can Hear The WHINERS Already!





roadrunner said:
Alright lump, explain why it's LOL material?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
So?

We Manage Game Herds So POORLY We Have To Close Units?

Ya!

We've Seen It Before!

How Bout Doing Something To Improve Units Long Before They Have To Be CLOSED?

It's UN-F'N-FIXABLE!

There Will Never Be Changes Made Harsh Enough To Help Fix It!

I Can Hear The WHINERS Already!
Click to expand...

Talking about the stuff you can't control. Severe winter events being one of them.
 
elkassassin said:
So?

We Manage Game Herds So POORLY We Have To Close Units?

Ya!

We've Seen It Before!

How Bout Doing Something To Improve Units Long Before They Have To Be CLOSED?

It's UN-F'N-FIXABLE!

There Will Never Be Changes Made Harsh Enough To Help Fix It!

I Can Hear The WHINERS Already!
Click to expand...


Define management.

Not 300 things.

What EXACTLY
 
Let's See?

Hmmmmm?

Work Done That's Required To Achieve Goals of Organizations in a Effective And Efficient Ways And Be Productive in a Positive Way Maybe?

Un-Like What We've Seen Here on Deer Management The Last 50 Years!

You COMPREHENDO Hossy?




hossblur said:
Define management.

Not 300 things.

What EXACTLY
Click to expand...
 
roadrunner said:
Alright lump, explain why it's LOL material?
Click to expand...
It was laugh out loud funny because what you said about them closing units down successfully in the past, won’t work anymore.

Why?

Because back then, apparently, bucks gave birth to fawns, and that’s why the populations came back. Those were the old days that we’re supposed to forget about, it’s 2023 now and bucks can no longer have fawns, so closing a unit will do nothing but take opportunity from hunters.

Now…… you tell me, is that not worth three laugh out loud emojis?

it’s pathetic, that’s really what it is.
 
elkassassin said:
Let's See?

Hmmmmm?

Work Done That's Required To Achieve Goals of Organizations in a Effective And Efficient Ways And Be Productive in a Positive Way Maybe?

Un-Like What We've Seen Here on Deer Management The Last 50 Years!

You COMPREHENDO Hossy?
Click to expand...

How many tags in your family,,?
 
2lumpy said:
It was laugh out loud funny because what you said about them closing units down successfully in the past, won’t work anymore.

Why?

Because back then, apparently, bucks gave birth to fawns, and that’s why the populations came back. Those were the old days that we’re supposed to forget about, it’s 2023 now and bucks can no longer have fawns, so closing a unit will do nothing but take opportunity from hunters.

Now…… you tell me, is that not worth three laugh out loud emojis?

it’s pathetic, that’s really what it is.
Click to expand...


All you did was increase pressure in another unit.
 

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