Thanks to Utah's Wildlife Leadership

SureShot

SureShot

Very Active Member
Messages
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While some are critical of "how the sausage is being made" (and I agree, it isn't always pretty), I am really grateful to some key people in our legislature, on the wildlife board, and in the DWR that are doing some really great things to improve my hunting and outdoor experience in Utah.

Some special interest groups are upset that their pet hobby has been flagged as being part of the problem, and some people are just flat-out negative and will never be satisfied, but for a huge group of regular guys like me that want to see more and bigger bucks (and bulls) and be able to chase them in a fair and sportsman-like way, I love the effort being made by those in key leadership positions to improve things despite the natural and manmade obstacles conspiring against our herds.

Here are some of the specific things they have done over the past several years that are having a positive impact:

- Splitting the state into smaller regions to better manage herds and hunting pressure and provide a balance between those who want more opportunity and those who want more quality
- Reducing tags when necessary (even more than recommended by biologists in some cases to provide better quality)
- Pushing for higher buck:doe ratios
- Getting more aggressive in predator management: bears, cougars and coyotes (and standing up to special interests who tried to get some of their decisions overturned)
- Putting a solid wolf management plan in place for if/when they are removed from the endangered species list
- Prohibiting baiting
- Prohibiting shed antler gathering when the animals are most vulnerable
- Prohibiting trail cameras (and standing up to special interests who tried to get it overturned)
- Allocating $1M per year to acquire land and water that will benefit wildlife
- Overhauling the LOA program (and standing up to special interests who tried to get it overturned)
- Funding and supporting much more aggressive and helpful research
- Moving back the application period to give hunters a better picture of what will be available before submitting applications
- Coming soon: Dialing back on technology advances in modern weapons

That's a pretty impressive list. Is it solving all of the problems? No. But, it's definitely helping and we're heading in the right direction. Have there been some misses? Yes. The handling of the hunt expo and distribution of conservation tag revenues come to mind. But, overall, we are very lucky to have these people trying to do what's best for our herds and I just want to thank them for their efforts. You're doing a great job of representing me and my interests.
 
The LE Units Both Elk & Deer Are Not Even Close To What They Once Were!

Hate To Break The News!

But Your Quality Has Been Traded For Opportunity!

This State Will Produce Quality Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly & Not For F'N Money!

And GREED!
 
elkassassin said:
The LE Units Both Elk & Deer Are Not Even Close To What They Once Were!

Hate To Break The News!

But Your Quality Has Been Traded For Opportunity!

This State Will Produce Quality Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly & Not For F'N Money!

And GREED!
Click to expand...
Amen
 
33" 180+ 4x6 taken last year while hunting solo on the opening day of muzzy season on a 2nd tier LE unit...and even while road hunting no less. Imagine what I could have turned up if I had a posse helping me, was willing to get off the road, and had some patience to control my itchy trigger finger!

2022-09-28 09.16.24.jpg


I personally know of at least 6-8 bigger bucks that were killed on the same unit, including an absolute 230+ monster. They're there.

With the winter and wet spring we're having, this is going to be a banner year for antler growth and we're going to see some amazing bucks and bulls taken this fall...without the aid of baiting and trail cameras. Thanks to those restrictions, some of the bruisers are even going to survive another year.

Like I said, "...some people are just flat-out negative and will never be satisfied..."
 
Remember, if it was up to Elkass, about 100 people a year would hunt big game in Utah and he would still probably complain about it while sitting on gobs of points like some kind of retarded lord of the rings Dragon.

You are a character Elkass and you make MM a fun place. I hope one day we see you actually hunt an LE Utah Bull Elk and maybe let the group know ahead of time and post some pics when it's all done. There are some damned good hunters on this forum and I'm confident many would help you when you decide to finally cash out your pile of points and hunt!
 
We could grow the biggest bucks and bulls in the world if we wanted to … BUT nobody would ever be able to hunt them. We could turn the whole state into once in a lifetime units if we wanted to. The State of Utah is doing a pretty good job of trying to balance quality and opportunity. If you want to hunt a premium deer unit, put in for the Henries, Oak Creek or the San Juan. If you want to hunt a premium elk unit, put in for the San Juan or the Boulder. but it may take you a couple of decades to draw a tag.

I personally want to hunt big buck and bulls, but I also want to be able to hunt fairly regularly with my family. I have taken two 300” archery bulls in the last 10 years on lesser LE units. That was my choice and I had a blast. I’m not complaining that there were not 400 inch bulls standing on every hillside. Choose what kind of hunt you want to have have and live with the consequences.

Some folks will never be satisfied!

Hawkeye
 
Hey hawkeye!

One More Paragraph!

With One More Size Reduction & I Won't Be Able To See/Read A Damn Word You're Typing!

You're Managing You're GRAMMAR Just Like The DWR is Managing Deer & Elk Herds,Smaller By The GAWD-DAMNED Day!



Hawkeye said:
We could grow the biggest bucks and bulls in the world if we wanted to … BUT nobody would ever be able to hunt them. We could turn the whole state into once in a lifetime units if we wanted to. The State of Utah is doing a pretty good job of trying to balance quality and opportunity. If you want to hunt a premium deer unit, put in for the Henries, Oak Creek or the San Juan. If you want to hunt a premium elk unit, put in for the San Juan or the Boulder. but it may take you a couple of decades to draw a tag.

I personally want to hunt big buck and bulls, but I also want to be able to hunt fairly regularly with my family. I have taken two 300” archery bulls in the last 10 years on lesser LE units. That was my choice and I had a blast. I’m not complaining that there were not 400 inch bulls standing on every hillside. Choose what kind of hunt you want to have have and live with the consequences.

Some folks will never be satisfied!

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Nice Job On The Buck SureShot!

Me & That Buck Had Seen each Other The Last Couple of Years On A couple Different Occasions!

The Unit Bounced Back A Little 3-4 Years Ago!

You Really Wouldn't Trade Your Hunt For a Posse Hunt Would You?

There's a 260"+ Buck Down There That Nobody Has Got Yet!



SureShot said:
33" 180+ 4x6 taken last year while hunting solo on the opening day of muzzy season on a 2nd tier LE unit...and even while road hunting no less. Imagine what I could have turned up if I had a posse helping me, was willing to get off the road, and had some patience to control my itchy trigger finger!

View attachment 106072

I personally know of at least 6-8 bigger bucks that were killed on the same unit, including an absolute 230+ monster. They're there.

With the winter and wet spring we're having, this is going to be a banner year for antler growth and we're going to see some amazing bucks and bulls taken this fall...without the aid of baiting and trail cameras. Thanks to those restrictions, some of the bruisers are even going to survive another year.

Like I said, "...some people are just flat-out negative and will never be satisfied..."
Click to expand...
 
One More thing For hawkeye!

It Always Cracks Me Up When People Boast About Places Like The Henry Mountains in recent Times!

Just Shows They Don't Get Around Like Some Do To See it with Their Own Eyes!

I've Seen Many Changes In The Deer Herd On The Henry Mountains In My Day!

I've Seen It Hunted Out Down To Almost Nothing!

I've Seen It Closed Due To PISS POOR Management!

I've Seen It Re-Opened!

And I've Seen It Over-Hunted Again!

And Here The Hell We Are!

If You Think It's Premium Right Now Hawkeye I'd Like To Take You For A Ride!

Better Yet You Can Take Me For a Ride & You Can ShowThemToMe!

I'm Not Sayin There Isn't A Couple Of Bruisers Left!

I'm Saying There Are Damn Few Left!
 
Let’s stop issuing any tags and shut down all hunting, We could have massive bucks and bulls all over the state. Instead of hunting, we can all photograph them and post them on our social media accounts. And the shed hunters could really tear it up. It would be awesome! ???

It’s called balance Elkster. I don’t think the WB or the DWR always get it right, but they are trying to balance quality and opportunity.

Hawkeye
 
Balance My Ass!

It's Called GREED & MONEY!

Remember When The State Was Broke Up In To Smaller Units?

For Better Management!

How's That Panned Out For Everybody?

I'll Sure Be Glad When It Goes To Year-Around/Open 365 On Deer & Elk!

We Ain't Far From It Right Now!



Hawkeye said:
Let’s stop issuing any tags and shut down all hunting, We could have massive bucks and bulls all over the state. Instead of hunting, we can all photograph them and post them on our social media accounts. And the shed hunters could really tear it up. It would be awesome! ???

It’s called balance Elkster. I don’t think the WB or the DWR always get it right, but they are trying to balance quality and opportunity.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Elkster, so you believe that we are “over-hunting” Henry Mountains? I know it may not be as good as it was 10 years ago but come on brother. That statement is absolutely ridiculous. Put down the two liter bottle of Dew and sober up! Last year the DWR issued 27 rifle tags for the entire unit and 25 of those hunters harvested bucks. It took 26 points for resident to be guaranteed a tag last year. What do you want the DWR to do? Cut the tags in half? Manage it like Antelope Island with 1 public tag and 1 auction tag? Cut all tags and shut the unit down to all hunting?

If you are not satisfied with the trophy quality available on the Henry Mountains then you will never be satisfied. We will never have a unit with 400” bulls and 200” bucks sitting on ever hillside. Go hunting and stop complaining.

You have also been whining about the poor quality of our elk management on this site for 20+ years. Have you drawn your Multi-Season San Juan tag yet? Or are you just buying bonus points and waiting for the day when they cut tags numbers sufficiently that you are the only hunter in the unit? We have gone from 250,000 deer hunters to roughly 75,000, and our herds are still struggling. What do you realistically want the WB and the DWR to do?

Hawkeye
 
What is the buck:doe ratio on the Henry’s. And Bessy’s idea of management is to make it higher by killing less bucks.

Because THAT is the issue with the Henry’s, for sure. Over-hunting. Because there aren’t enough bucks to breed the does, apparently?

Good call Bessy. Someone needs to open their eyes alright! You’ve had a lot of really bad takes over the years, this one may be your worst.
 
Hey hawkeye!

Don't Know How Young You Are?

You Don't Need To Close Units!

They'll Close Theirselves With Poor Management!

We've Seen It Happen Before!

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

The State Was Managed So Poorly Several Units Were Closed,I Seen It With My Own Blind Eyes!

The Henry Mountains Was One Of Them Places!

PAY THE F ATTENTION To This Because You Never Listen:

We Need To Start Managing Deer Herds For Number Of Deer And Then Manage Them The Right Way!

This Buck To Doe Ratio Management Is The JOKE Of The Universe!

"""We Only Got 5 Head Left But BY GAWD One of Them is a Buck & That Keeps Our Buck To Doe Ratio Where We Like To See It!""" WAFJ!

I'm Gonna Load Your Asses Up Next Fall,Both You & Niller & We're Going For A Ride!

You Boys In?




Hawkeye said:
Elkster, so you believe that we are “over-hunting” Henry Mountains? I know it may not be as good as it was 10 years ago but come on brother. That statement is absolutely ridiculous. Put down the two liter bottle of Dew and sober up! Last year the DWR issued 27 rifle tags for the entire unit and 25 of those hunters harvested bucks. It took 26 points for resident to be guaranteed a tag last year. What do you want the DWR to do? Cut the tags in half? Manage it like Antelope Island with 1 public tag and 1 auction tag? Cut all tags and shut the unit down to all hunting?

If you are not satisfied with the trophy quality available on the Henry Mountains then you will never be satisfied. We will never have a unit with 400” bulls and 200” bucks sitting on ever hillside. Go hunting and stop complaining.

You have also been whining about the poor quality of our elk management on this site for 20+ years. Have you drawn your Multi-Season San Juan tag yet? Or are you just buying bonus points and waiting for the day when they cut tags numbers sufficiently that you are the only hunter in the unit? We have gone from 250,000 deer hunters to roughly 75,000, and our herds are still struggling. What do you realistically want the WB and the DWR to do?

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Let’s go take that ride Elkster. I’ll pick up Vanilla and we will meet you in the Basin. Hopefully, by the end of the ride we will have talked some sense into you. If nothing else, we would have a good time and pop a few cold Dews! ?

Hawkeye
 
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I don’t like the buck:doe ratio management style all that much myself, bessy. But I promise you, if you believe deer numbers are too low, and the buck:for ratio is approaching or over 50:100 bucks to doe, killing less buck is NOT going to help your deer herd grow.

It wouldn’t even matter if that was your management decision. Biologically speaking, that is not a healthy herd and not herd dynamics that when conditions are right, will cause a population increase. Your faulty ratio will actually end up being a preventative factor for the herd to increase if/when other conditions are favorable.

But by golly, some believe herd health is measured in inches, so stop killing bucks and maybe we can make that Henry’s herd 75:100…heck, why not shoot for 1:1 and see how that goes?
 
Hawkeye said:
Elkster, so you believe that we are “over-hunting” Henry Mountains? I know it may not be as good as it was 10 years ago but come on brother. That statement is absolutely ridiculous. Put down the two liter bottle of Dew and sober up! Last year the DWR issued 27 rifle tags for the entire unit and 25 of those hunters harvested bucks. It took 26 points for resident to be guaranteed a tag last year. What do you want the DWR to do? Cut the tags in half? Manage it like Antelope Island with 1 public tag and 1 auction tag? Cut all tags and shut the unit down to all hunting?

If you are not satisfied with the trophy quality available on the Henry Mountains then you will never be satisfied. We will never have a unit with 400” bulls and 200” bucks sitting on ever hillside. Go hunting and stop complaining.

You have also been whining about the poor quality of our elk management on this site for 20+ years. Have you drawn your Multi-Season San Juan tag yet? Or are you just buying bonus points and waiting for the day when they cut tags numbers sufficiently that you are the only hunter in the unit? We have gone from 250,000 deer hunters to roughly 75,000, and our herds are still struggling. What do you realistically want the WB and the DWR to do?

Hawkeye
Click to expand...

Notice he won't answer that elk question.

The rumor is, there's a reason?
 
A Good Time For Sure!

I Just Invited Hossy As Well!

Hawkeye said:
Let’s go take that ride Elkster. I’ll pick up Vanilla and we will meet you in the Basin. Hopefully, by the end of the ride we will have talked some sense into you. If nothing else, we would have a good time and pop a few cold Dews! ?

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
Posting from my cell phone while driving down the road is a bad habit. I’ll change my ways.

Hawkeye
 
Mostly Just RAZZIN hawky!

But You Surely Don't Think My Vision Is Getting Better Do Ya?

Posting While Driving With Your Profession!

LMMFAO!

Hawkeye said:
Posting from my cell phone while driving down the road is a not a good way to do it. I’ll change my ways.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
One More thing For hawkeye!

It Always Cracks Me Up When People Boast About Places Like The Henry Mountains in recent Times!

Just Shows They Don't Get Around Like Some Do To See it with Their Own Eyes!

I've Seen Many Changes In The Deer Herd On The Henry Mountains In My Day!

I've Seen It Hunted Out Down To Almost Nothing!

I've Seen It Closed Due To PISS POOR Management!

I've Seen It Re-Opened!

And I've Seen It Over-Hunted Again!

And Here The Hell We Are!

If You Think It's Premium Right Now Hawkeye I'd Like To Take You For A Ride!

Better Yet You Can Take Me For a Ride & You Can ShowThemToMe!

I'm Not Sayin There Isn't A Couple Of Bruisers Left!

I'm Saying There Are Damn Few Left!
Click to expand...



Bess, what is your solution for the Henery mtn unit?

Don't talk about any other unit just the henerys. If you was king of the henerys and could manage it any way you wanted for 10 years how are you bringing the deer herds back, or better yet what would you have done differently the last 10 years?

Again no bringing up any other unit, how you going to bring it back to glory since it's in such dire conditions.
 
JakeH said:
Bess, what is your solution for the Henery mtn unit?

Don't talk about any other unit just the henerys. If you was king of the henerys and could manage it any way you wanted for 10 years how are you bringing the deer herds back, or better yet what would you have done differently the last 10 years?

Again no bringing up any other unit, how you going to bring it back to glory since it's in such dire conditions.
Click to expand...
Good luck trying to get an answer that makes sense and isn't being yelled at you with all caps and spaced out, every other line.
 
The problem with the Henry's isn't herd management or a tag issue. The problem is the top 20 bucks on the unit get hammered every single year. The top end bucks stand zero chance of surviving the way that unit gets hunted. To many guides, buddy's, spotters, technology to survive on such a small wide open unit. If you're a top end buck on the henrys, you can kiss your azz goodbye. Other units like the Pauns, San Juan, have enough deep, thick areas on the unit to allow for "some" escapement. Not the Henrys. Hunters and their technology has gotten too good. Every year huge posse's of 20+ descend on the henrys. Honestly takes much of the appeal out of it for me, (and I guide). Not sure how you solve the issue. This has become the case on many units. Guiding on the Manti was a joke last year. Numerous outfitters had large posse's keeping tabs on certain bulls. Utah really needs to do a better jobs regulating outfitters, their numbers, and their practice's. Way too much of a free for all. Every limited entry unit in the state is over run with outfitters and their harem of small town go getter's. Do a better job regulating the outfitters, and the quality of the game would go up noticeably. There is some cold blooded, die hard killers on the landscape. Who flat get after it. But the teams of outfitters no doubt put a hurt on much of the top end critters in this state.
 
There is zero chance Bessy answers this question with a straight answer. 100% chance he does not.
 
fullthrottle said:
The problem with the Henry's isn't herd management or a tag issue. The problem is the top 20 bucks on the unit get hammered every single year. The top end bucks stand zero chance of surviving the way that unit gets hunted. To many guides, buddy's, spotters, technology to survive on such a small wide open unit. If you're a top end buck on the henrys, you can kiss your azz goodbye. Other units like the Pauns, San Juan, have enough deep, thick areas on the unit to allow for "some" escapement. Not the Henrys. Hunters and their technology has gotten too good. Every year huge posse's of 20+ descend on the henrys. Honestly takes much of the appeal out of it for me, (and I guide). Not sure how you solve the issue. This has become the case on many units. Guiding on the Manti was a joke last year. Numerous outfitters had large posse's keeping tabs on certain bulls. Utah really needs to do a better jobs regulating outfitters, their numbers, and their practice's. Way too much of a free for all. Every limited entry unit in the state is over run with outfitters and their harem of small town go getter's. Do a better job regulating the outfitters, and the quality of the game would go up noticeably. There is some cold blooded, die hard killers on the landscape. Who flat get after it. But the teams of outfitters no doubt put a hurt on much of the top end critters in this state.
Click to expand...
The state already passed the regulation limiting a guided hunt to one guide and one helper. If you are aware of violations, it's your responsibility to report them. That's the only way to fix this problem.
 
I Can Plainly See I Should Of Stayed At Work!

Or Further More Maybe Took The Day Off So I Coulda F'D Off All Day On MM Like The Rest Of You Did!

Solution?

My Solution Wouldn't Satisfy Too Many People So What Does It Matter?

You're Probably Too Young To Know Jake?

But The Henry Mountains Was One Of The Places The Management Was So PISS POOR It Had To Be Closed Along With Several Other Units Because It Was Hunted Out!

What A F'N Shame!

So They Close It For Several Years & The Herd Came Back A Little!

Do You Remember Jake Some Of The Bucks They Were Pulling Off The Henry's a Few Years Back?

Or Did Everybody Forget About Them Already?

When The Quality Started Going Down Hill I'd Of Cut Some Tags/Hunts!

The Newer Henry Mountains Deer Herd Is NOT & Never Was A Big Herd Of Deer!

Top Tier Of Bucks Taken Year After Year & Too Many Taken!

AND I DON'T GIVE A GAWD-DAMNED What The Opportunists Want!

This Is An LE Unit With Guys Still waiting with MAX Points in hopes of Hunting It Someday with Hopes Of Hunting Some Quality Bucks!

Not Every DRAT Can Hunt Trophy Mule Deer In Utah,SAD but TRUE!

The Guy's Willing To Take Their Chances Should Have A Crack at Some Quality after Taking A Good Portion of Their Life-Span To Maybe Draw A Tag!

I Sure The FRICK Wouldn't Of Hunted It Down To What It Is Now!

There Are 50+ Reasons Why The Deer Herd Is Suffering!

Quit Blaming Just One Item On The List!

BABY STEPS Fix Nothing!

If You Owned The Henry Mountains Jake?

Would You Manage It Properly?

Or Would You Manage It Like It's Been Managed The Last Several Years?

Just A Few years Back They Were Taking a Couple Of 35"-40" Bucks Off The Henry's each year!

How Many Like That Have You Seen Harvested In Recent Years?

With Modern Day GREED,PISS
POOR MANAGEMENT,OPPORTUNISTS, & 50 Other Reasons There Ain't a Fix!

It's a FUBAR!

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!







JakeH said:
Bess, what is your solution for the Henery mtn unit?

Don't talk about any other unit just the henerys. If you was king of the henerys and could manage it any way you wanted for 10 years how are you bringing the deer herds back, or better yet what would you have done differently the last 10 years?

Again no bringing up any other unit, how you going to bring it back to glory since it's in such dire conditions.
Click to expand...
 
Anybody Know The Total Number Of Buck Tags Given On The Henry's?

No!

It's Not Just The PISSCUTTER Number Of Tags Posted in The Proclamation!

Add Em All Up!
 
It’s the only place in the world that capable hunters with vortex HD glass can drive on by 180” deer.

I’ve seen enough of the bowls on Ellen, the back side of penelle from dark over to scratch, and everything hillers has to offer from Stanton to cat ranch to know what that unit is. Even in its worst state it’s still a literal zoo for mature deer, meanwhile there’s lines to snag the last of the wasatch west and box elder deer tags every summer.

The same 500 guys that go to banquets every year get to go hunt the same quality of animals while the rest of us peons sit year after year watching the wildlife we own hoping that 30 or now 50 years down the road we will get our chance and that the promise of unsustainable quality that started this journey will still be there.

Piss on that model. It’s just as justified to say an entire generation of utah hunters being cut out of regular hunting opportunities is as big of a travesty as the poor fella sitting on 20 years having to settle for a 320 bull or 160 buck.

25 years ago We got sold a sour bill of goods by a good ol boys group of guys with no regard for the consequences. I’m not ok with those consequences, and will work to see them undone.

You should never have been put in the position to complain in the first place Bess, that was the original mistake. They dangled a dollar in front of you without mentioning you would likely never get it, and even if eventually you did, it would only be worth fifty cents once the lords and ladies took their taxes.
 
You're Wrong BEAVIS!

It Won't Be Worth 50 cents!

It Might Be A Zoo FOR Mature Deer!

But They'd Have To Be There First!

If You Think The Henry's Deer Herd Is Big You Are Very Secluded!
 
The Henry’s in the tank still fetches 75-90k at auction. That should tell anyone everything they need to know about what that unit is.

I know a few years back it regularly brought 100-150k. She’s really slid back, rich guys will only drop a penance on it nowadays.
 
Ya!

And The ALCATRAZ Tag Went For 500K This Year!

Somebody Must Know Something!

Ya!

Right!



berrysblaster said:
The Henry’s in the tank still fetches 75-90k at auction. That should tell anyone everything they need to know about what that unit is.

I know a few years back it regularly brought 100-150k. She’s really slid back, rich guys will only drop a penance on it nowadays.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
You're Wrong BEAVIS!

It Won't Be Worth 50 cents!

It Might Be A Zoo FOR Mature Deer!

But They'd Have To Be There First!

If You Think The Henry's Deer Herd Is Big You Are Very Secluded!
Click to expand...
So what should we do. We could have paid contests in every county for all adults to only shoot mature deer. We could sacrifice some tech fine by me. We could eat tags if were only to shoot a mature deer. It’s going to have to be done by the masses if we want a better product. Because the DNR can only bet against success at this point and success has gotten good. I’ll commit to a big deer or nothing if I’m lucky enough to draw a GS tag. But meat prices aren’t going to be cheap this year so it might be hard to blame a guy that is looking to put some food on the table. We can kick the posses off the Henry’s that’s fine too.
 
Not Being Wise Here!

But The Old Excuse of I NEED THE MEAT Is Total BS!

Ya!

I Needed The Meat!

That Sshitt Only Cost Me 200.00 a lb This Last Year!

wstrntines said:
So what should we do. We could have paid contests in every county for all adults to only shoot mature deer. We could sacrifice some tech fine by me. We could eat tags if were only to shoot a mature deer. It’s going to have to be done by the masses if we want a better product. Because the DNR can only bet against success at this point and success has gotten good. I’ll commit to a big deer or nothing if I’m lucky enough to draw a GS tag. But meat prices aren’t going to be cheap this year so it might be hard to blame a guy that is looking to put some food on the table. We can kick the posses off the Henry’s that’s fine too.
Click to expand...
 
SureShot said:
The state already passed the regulation limiting a guided hunt to one guide and one helper. If you are aware of violations, it's your responsibility to report them. That's the only way to fix this problem.
Click to expand...
That law is total BS, and vague. Are spotters considered “helpers”? Anyone that has been on the Henry’s during the hunt knows exactly what’s going on. It shouldn’t take a phone call from anyone. The DWR needs to get their azz down there and actually enforce the law. That law is not being enforced on any level.
 
elkassassin said:
I Can Plainly See I Should Of Stayed At Work!

Or Further More Maybe Took The Day Off So I Coulda F'D Off All Day On MM Like The Rest Of You Did!

Solution?

My Solution Wouldn't Satisfy Too Many People So What Does It Matter?

You're Probably Too Young To Know Jake?

But The Henry Mountains Was One Of The Places The Management Was So PISS POOR It Had To Be Closed Along With Several Other Units Because It Was Hunted Out!

What A F'N Shame!

So They Close It For Several Years & The Herd Came Back A Little!

Do You Remember Jake Some Of The Bucks They Were Pulling Off The Henry's a Few Years Back?

Or Did Everybody Forget About Them Already?

When The Quality Started Going Down Hill I'd Of Cut Some Tags/Hunts!

The Newer Henry Mountains Deer Herd Is NOT & Never Was A Big Herd Of Deer!

Top Tier Of Bucks Taken Year After Year & Too Many Taken!

AND I DON'T GIVE A GAWD-DAMNED What The Opportunists Want!

This Is An LE Unit With Guys Still waiting with MAX Points in hopes of Hunting It Someday with Hopes Of Hunting Some Quality Bucks!

Not Every DRAT Can Hunt Trophy Mule Deer In Utah,SAD but TRUE!

The Guy's Willing To Take Their Chances Should Have A Crack at Some Quality after Taking A Good Portion of Their Life-Span To Maybe Draw A Tag!

I Sure The FRICK Wouldn't Of Hunted It Down To What It Is Now!

There Are 50+ Reasons Why The Deer Herd Is Suffering!

Quit Blaming Just One Item On The List!

BABY STEPS Fix Nothing!

If You Owned The Henry Mountains Jake?

Would You Manage It Properly?

Or Would You Manage It Like It's Been Managed The Last Several Years?

Just A Few years Back They Were Taking a Couple Of 35"-40" Bucks Off The Henry's each year!

How Many Like That Have You Seen Harvested In Recent Years?

With Modern Day GREED,PISS
POOR MANAGEMENT,OPPORTUNISTS, & 50 Other Reasons There Ain't a Fix!

It's a FUBAR!

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!
Click to expand...
elkassassin said:
Anybody Know The Total Number Of Buck Tags Given On The Henry's?

No!

It's Not Just The PISSCUTTER Number Of Tags Posted in The Proclamation!

Add Em All Up!
Click to expand...
OK bess I took the time to look all this up for you, I hope you take the time to really read it.

These are the numbers from the annual big game reports, I can plain as day see why the herd is "tanking" and piss poor by your standards. I will see if you can pick it up as well.

I will start off with tags from 2010 to last year and these are all the tags including LOA and auction tags. Not just those piss ass numbers in the proclamation.

Year:/ total tags/trophy tags/ management tags.
2010: 63. / 45. / 18
2011: 75. / 45. / 30
2012: 78. / 48. / 30
2013: 75. / 46 / 29
2014: 77. / 47. / 30
2015: 76. / 47 / 29
2016: 74. / 46. / 28
2017: 80. / 51. / 29
2018: 70. / 45. / 25
2019: 61. / 52. / 9
2020: 64. / 54. / 10
2021: 53. / 53. / 0
2022: 51. / 51. / 0

There ya go, those are the official tag numbers if you think killing 51-80 bucks a year and a big chunk of those as management deer is "over hunting" and is what is bringing the herd down you are kinda crazy.

But wait there's more!!!

Here are the winter herd estimates for the unit from the DWR, I know I know these estimates are wrong and not accurate but at least hear me out and take it in as that is all we have to go off of.

Keep in mind the DWR have a herd objective of 2700 animals for the unit. I am also going to put the buck to doe ratio for each year as well, and the fawn to doe ratio as well.

The DWR Manage for 40-55 bucks per 100 does.

It will look like this.
Year- population/ buck:doe / fawn:doe

2010- 1200 / 61:100 / ??:100
2011- 1400 / 52:100 / 54:100
2012- 1900 / 55:100 / 74:100
2013- 1800 / 56:100 / 60:100
2014- 2200 / 48:100 / 81:100
2015- 2400 / 65:100 / 76:100
2016- 2200 / 47:100 / 65:100
2017- 1900 / 41:100 / 53:100
2018- 1600 / 44:100 / 38:100
2019- 1000 / 37:100 / 57:100
2020- 900 / 31:100 / 53:100
2021- 900. / 40:100 / 40:100

Also FYI not a single doe tag sold for the henerys for all those years.

To me these numbers clearly tell the story of why the population is declined and that is recruitment, if the fawn recruitment drops to far the herd falls fast, the drought we have been in through 2016 to 2020 clearly had a big impact on the fawn survival and probably a lot of the adult deer as well.

So to blame the decline on the very few buck tags they give out every year is just crazy in my opinion.

Every unit has its own set of problems and challenges, some of them have many problems.

The problem with the henerys is definitely not because of the measly amount of buck tags they are handing out.
 
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Hey Jake?

You Miss The Part Where I Said There Were 50+ Problems With The Deer Herd?

And Them Deer Counts Must Be Exact!:D

1600,Not 1625!

1200,not 1237!

900,not 965!

So a 102 Buck Tags on a 900 Head Total Count in 2022?

Or was it 51 Tags Total & They Were All Trophy Tags?

JakeH said:
OK bess I took the time to look all this up for you, I hope you take the time to really read it.

These are the numbers from the annual big game reports, I can plain as day see why the herd is "tanking" and piss poor by your standards. I will see if you can pick it up as well.

I will start off with tags from 2010 to last year and these are all the tags including LOA and auction tags. Not just those piss ass numbers in the proclamation.

Year:/ total tags/trophy tags/ management tags.
2010: 63. / 45. / 18
2011: 75. / 45. / 30
2012: 78. / 48. / 30
2013: 75. / 46 / 29
2014: 77. / 47. / 30
2015: 76. / 47 / 29
2016: 74. / 46. / 28
2017: 80. / 51. / 29
2018: 70. / 45. / 25
2019: 61. / 52. / 9
2020: 64. / 54. / 10
2021: 53. / 53. / 0
2022: 51. / 51. / 0

There ya go, those are the official tag numbers if you think killing 51-80 bucks a year and a big chunk of those as management deer is "over hunting" and is what is bringing the herd down you are kinda crazy.

But wait there's more!!!

Here are the winter herd estimates for the unit from the DWR, I know I know these estimates are wrong and not accurate but at least hear me out and take it in as that is all we have to go off of.

Keep in mind the DWR have a herd objective of 2700 animals for the unit. I am also going to put the buck to doe ratio for each year as well, and the fawn to doe ratio as well.
Click to expand...


JakeH said:
The DWR Manage for 40-55 bucks per 100 does.

It will look like this.
Year- population/ buck:doe / fawn:doe

2010- 1200 / 61:100 / ??:100
2011- 1400 / 52:100 / 54:100
2012- 1900 / 55:100 / 74:100
2013- 1800 / 56:100 / 60:100
2014- 2200 / 48:100 / 81:100
2015- 2400 / 65:100 / 76:100
2016- 2200 / 47:100 / 65:100
2017- 1900 / 41:100 / 53:100
2018- 1600 / 44:100 / 38:100
2019- 1000 / 37:100 / 57:100
2020- 900 / 31:100 / 53:100
2021- 900. / 40:100 / 40:100

Also FYI not a single doe tag sold for the henerys for all thos years.

To me these numbers clearly tell the story of why the population is declined and that is recruitment, if the fawn recruitment drops to far the herd falls fast, the drought we have been in through 2016 to 2020 clearly had a big impact on the fawn survival and probably a lot of the adult deer as well.

So to blame the decline on the very few buck tags they give out every year is just crazy in my opinion.

Every unit has its own set of problems and challenges, some of them have many problems.

The problem with the henerys is definitely not because of the measly amount of buck tags they are handing out.
Click to expand...
 
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elkassassin said:
Hey Jake?

You Miss The Part Where I Said There Were 50+ Problems With The Deer Herd?

And Them Deer Counts Must Be Exact!:D

1600,Not 1625!

1200,not 1237!

900,not 965!

So a 102 Buck Tags on a 900 Head Total Count in 2022?
Click to expand...

You missed the part where I said I knew you was going to call into question the numbers, and those are estimations so I'm sure they do some rounding.

Also you are misinterpreting my numbers, they sold 51 tags for those 900 deer. The most tags they ever sold was 80 in 2017.

So bess how does 80 buck tags cause a 300 animal population drop from from 2016 to 2017?

Or 70 tags for a 600 animal population drop in 2018?

How did they over hunt the Henerys with those numbers?
 
Maybe just maybe hunters are not the limiting factor on our deer herd numbers? ?‍♂️

Cut tags even further and you might grow a few bigger bucks for next year but you will not increase overall herd numbers. The Henries is just one example of that principle.

Hawkeye
 
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JakeH the magic is in the ratio and it’s not because the buck doe ratios is too high.

The buck doe ratio stayed in the 50s and 60s until 2015. At the same time, during the highest numbers of bucks per does in the total population, the population continue to increase, from 1,200 in 2010 up to a high of 2400 (doubled in five years).m by 2015. Then every thing started to decline in 2916 to 900 in 2020 and 2021. The buck doe ratio didn’t stay up, the buck population dropped in half from 65/100 to 31-40/100. At 31/100 there were still enough bucks to breed all the does in the middle of November.

If all the does got bred…….. Why then did the population start and continue to decline in 2016?

Drought? That’s what DWR would have us believe.

I don’t believe for one minute that it was drought.

Was it too many bucks, eating too much of the feed, causing the does and fawns to die? Nope, the cows and the bison did great.

The magic is in the fawn doe ratio. Until 2015 the fawn ratio stayed above 65/100. With the exception of 2011, the fawn ratio (survival) caused the total population to double in five years. Even though 2011 fawn ratio was 53/100, (possible anomaly.) the next four years the fawn/doe ratio stayed at 60 or above..

The DWR biologists will tell you the magic number for mule deer pollution growth is fawn survival must exceed 50/100. I do not believe that to be true. My personal study of the DWR computer software model back in the 1990’s demonstrated mule deer morality factors demonstrated herd growth was at a break even at 60 fawn per hundred does and any thing thing below that and the total population would decline, above 60 it the population would increase.

I believe the data set you posted here demonstrates that is still a fact, give or take a degree or two. The 60/100 fawns /does is the magic number. The higher it is the faster the pop. grows, the lower it is, the faster the herd declines.

Notice, in your data, what happened as soon as the fawn ratio dropped below 60/100 and it continued to decline for five years in a row, the total population dropped from 2400 to 900, in five years.

What caused the fawn survival to start dropping and continue to drop?

Answer: The same thing that caused it to drop the last time it tanked and they closed the unit to mule deer hunting!

Cougars and coyotes.

Same then and the same now.

When they closed the Henries to hunting the last time, the DWR killed the crap out of the predators. Aggressively killed the predators. As soon as they did, the fawn survival started to increase. With the predators gone it changed the mortality rate of the fawns as well the adult deer. As soon at the fawn survival ratio got close to 60/100 the population started back up. You could say it literally exploded, in just 5 years, even with two year at 53/100 and 60/100 during that 5 year period.

So……… not every unit is the same, that was the reason we pushed them for 60 units (they went with 30) ten years ago. So each unit could be managed unique to the specifics circumstances of that unit.

The Henries is in the tank and It will stay in the tank until they they get down there and hammer the predator population back enough to get the fawn survival back above 60/100. If they don’t…….. it will continue to get worse. I’ll wager you a Dew and I’ll donate it to the Bobcat!
 
If You Read What I Posted Jake You'll See Where I Asked if it Was 51 Total Tags or 102!

If You Read What I've Posted For Umpteen Years You'll Also See Where I've Said There Are 50+ Issues With The Deer Herd!

But Nobody Wants To Listen Or Comprehend That Part!

There Are Issues Beyond Our Control!

But There Are Also Issues that Could Be Helped With Our Control!

So Jake!

Your Proof Of Numbers of Deer Dropping On The Henrys?

We Gonna Just Keep Hunting The Top End Bucks Down To Nothing?

Along with the other 50+ Reasons why the Deer Herd is Declining?

Will We Keep it Open Until it Has To Be Closed Again?









JakeH said:
You missed the part where I said I knew you was going to call into question the numbers, and those are estimations so I'm sure they do some rounding.

Also you are misinterpreting my numbers, they sold 51 tags for those 900 deer. The most tags they ever sold was 80 in 2017.

So bess how does 80 buck tags cause a 300 animal population drop from from 2016 to 2017?

Or 70 tags for a 600 animal population drop in 2018?

How did they over hunt the Henerys with those numbers?
Click to expand...
 
So Jake?

Does The 51 Henry Permits Include EXPO Tags,Banquet Tags,Conservation Tags,Money Tags,Etc,Etc?

Is It The GRAND Total Of Tags?
 
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JakeH said:
OK bess I took the time to look all this up for you, I hope you take the time to really read it.

These are the numbers from the annual big game reports, I can plain as day see why the herd is "tanking" and piss poor by your standards. I will see if you can pick it up as well.

I will start off with tags from 2010 to last year and these are all the tags including LOA and auction tags. Not just those piss ass numbers in the proclamation.
Click to expand...
elkassassin said:
So Jake?

Does The 51 Henry Permits Include EXPO Tags,Banquet Tags,Conservation Tags,Money Tags,Etc,Etc?

Is It The GRAND Total Of Tags?
Click to expand...
@JakeH, nope, he has no reading comprehension. Laid it all out there for him and he still couldn't get it.
 
elkassassin said:
STFU yote & get Back To Kilin Dawgs!

I'm Asking If Them Are For Sure The Total Number Of Tags!
Click to expand...
Yes those are for sure the total number of tags, the only ones that wouldn't be included is the two state wide tags if they happened to be killed on the henerys on any of those years.

In 2022 there must have been 2 conservation/expo tags, as there was only 48 hunting permits in the draw res/non res total and 1 LOA tag given, but there was 51 tags on the annual report.

The numbers on those reports include LOA tags as well, I know this because I can look at the Diamond mtn unit and see that the number of tags in the report are substantially higher than the number of tags in the draw.
 
elkassassin said:
Ya!

And The ALCATRAZ Tag Went For 500K This Year!

Somebody Must Know Something!

Ya!

Right!
Click to expand...


Yeah. They know that they will be the ONLY HUNTER on the island, with keys to the south end gate, and no access from tourists. That's what they know.

Which is EXACTLY what your idea brings.

How many dudes hunted the Henry's vs how many applied?


You waited nearly 3 decades to hunt the San Juan.

Now, imagine you get your shut it down management.

You will. NEVER hunt again.

Your turd herding cash doesn't buy $500k tags.


You pretend like " if we shut it down, then choke it off it will be good for everyone".

It won't. Denny, and Jimmy John, will hunt it, you can sit in the basin.

This pipe dream of "the 60's, wasnt management. There was no deer management. It was total control by the livestock industry and an irradiation of predators, wide scale chaining, etc. Deer numbers were an accident.


So how about you roll over here, first if Nov, I'll drive you out to AI and you can sit behind a locked gate watching Doyle's Toyota roll past to hunt and island. Because that's your management idea.
 
You Need To F'N COOL IT Hossy!

The Last Couple Of Years in Your Backyard Have Not Impressed Me!

You Need To Buy The Tag With Your MUD DOBBIN Job & Go Hunt It!

You'd Be In The Passenger Side Of The Toyota!

And Thinking:

LOOK AT ME!

The Guy Driving The Toyota Would Guide You For Free!

With The Exception Of Some Insignia On Some Pictures!

You'd Be Proud As All HELL Parading That PISSCUTTER Around Town!

You Could Write A Story Up & Put It In The Magazines On How Tough Of A F'N Hunt It Was!

Maybe Start Your Own Instagram Page!

You'd Be F'N Famous!





hossblur said:
Yeah. They know that they will be the ONLY HUNTER on the island, with keys to the south end gate, and no access from tourists. That's what they know.

Which is EXACTLY what your idea brings.

How many dudes hunted the Henry's vs how many applied?


You waited nearly 3 decades to hunt the San Juan.

Now, imagine you get your shut it down management.

You will. NEVER hunt again.

Your turd herding cash doesn't buy $500k tags.


You pretend like " if we shut it down, then choke it off it will be good for everyone".

It won't. Denny, and Jimmy John, will hunt it, you can sit in the basin.

This pipe dream of "the 60's, wasnt management. There was no deer management. It was total control by the livestock industry and an irradiation of predators, wide scale chaining, etc. Deer numbers were an accident.


So how about you roll over here, first if Nov, I'll drive you out to AI and you can sit behind a locked gate watching Doyle's Toyota roll past to hunt and island. Because that's your management idea.
Click to expand...
 
OK Jake!

Thanks!

They Did Cut A Few Tags!

There Are So Many Reasons Why Our Deer Herd Is Suffering That It Ain't Never Gonna Be Fixed!

You Gotta Realize & I've Already Said It:

The Henry's Deer Herd Is Small/900 Estimated According To The Numbers!

It's A Decent Sized Mountain Range!

We Surely Need More Than 900 Head On The Hoof!

I Know The Coyotes Are Raising Hell Down There!

A Few Years Ago I was Down There With BIGJOHN & His Dad & Crew & I Hiked a Few Canyons!

I Did Find Several Dead Deer Carcass's But Not A Head/Skull Near Any Of Them!

Made Me Wonder How Much Poaching Goes On Down There?

And Maybe They Were Turned In & Somebody Got The Dead Heads On Some Of Them?

Kinda Weird,I Was In Some Remote Areas & Not A Head,Jaw Bone,Scull,Horn But Everything Else of The Bones Were There?

I Doubt Very Many Of Them Were Does,Nobody Sneaks Doe Heads Out Do They?

JakeH said:
Yes those are for sure the total number of tags, the only ones that wouldn't be included is the two state wide tags if they happened to be killed on the henerys on any of those years.

In 2022 there must have been 2 conservation/expo tags, as there was only 48 hunting permits in the draw res/non res total and 1 LOA tag given, but there was 51 tags on the annual report.

The numbers on those reports include LOA tags as well, I know this because I can look at the Diamond mtn unit and see that the number of tags in the report are substantially higher than the number of tags in the draw.
Click to expand...
 
fullthrottle said:
The problem with the Henry's isn't herd management or a tag issue. The problem is the top 20 bucks on the unit get hammered every single year. The top end bucks stand zero chance of surviving the way that unit gets hunted. To many guides, buddy's, spotters, technology to survive on such a small wide open unit. If you're a top end buck on the henrys, you can kiss your azz goodbye. Other units like the Pauns, San Juan, have enough deep, thick areas on the unit to allow for "some" escapement. Not the Henrys. Hunters and their technology has gotten too good. Every year huge posse's of 20+ descend on the henrys. Honestly takes much of the appeal out of it for me, (and I guide). Not sure how you solve the issue. This has become the case on many units. Guiding on the Manti was a joke last year. Numerous outfitters had large posse's keeping tabs on certain bulls. Utah really needs to do a better jobs regulating outfitters, their numbers, and their practice's. Way too much of a free for all. Every limited entry unit in the state is over run with outfitters and their harem of small town go getter's. Do a better job regulating the outfitters, and the quality of the game would go up noticeably. There is some cold blooded, die hard killers on the landscape. Who flat get after it. But the teams of outfitters no doubt put a hurt on much of the top end critters in this state.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
OK Jake!

Thanks!

They Did Cut A Few Tags!

There Are So Many Reasons Why Our Deer Herd Is Suffering That It Ain't Never Gonna Be Fixed!

You Gotta Realize & I've Already Said It:

The Henry's Deer Herd Is Small/900 Estimated According To The Numbers!

It's A Decent Sized Mountain Range!

We Surely Need More Than 900 Head On The Hoof!

I Know The Coyotes Are Raising Hell Down There!

A Few Years Ago I was Down There With BIGJOHN & His Dad & Crew & I Hiked a Few Canyons!

I Did Find Several Dead Deer Carcass's But Not A Head/Skull Near Any Of Them!

Made Me Wonder How Much Poaching Goes On Down There?

And Maybe They Were Turned In & Somebody Got The Dead Heads On Some Of Them?

Kinda Weird,I Was In Some Remote Areas & Not A Head,Jaw Bone,Scull,Horn But Everything Else of The Bones Were There?

I Doubt Very Many Of Them Were Does,Nobody Sneaks Doe Heads Out Do They?
Click to expand...
I think the drought years has had a much larger effect on the deer herds than even the biologists thought it would. And not only on the Henerys but across the whole state. It will be interesting to see how things go if we can get a good string of years with above average moisture like the last two years. The snow has definitely not did us any favors this year but hopefully it will all work out for the better.

I know there are a ton of other problems, but I'm really starting to think the worst problems are not under our control.
 
JakeH said:
…………. I'm really starting to think the worst problems are not under our control.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly what the DWR wants you, and everyone else to think….

Of course the worst problems can be controlled.

Every successful livestockman can control the same problems…….. but he wants to and he doesn’t allow anything to stop him.

Big game herds are no different than domestic livestock. The difference is the the broken bureaucracy m that are in charge of managing big game on public land.

For example and don’t tell me “it’s not the same.” How many bison were left in the US in 1910?

“After the great slaughter of the American bison during the 1800s, the number of bison remaining alive in all of North America declined to as low as 541, with as few as 300 in the United States. During that period, a handful of ranchers gathered remnants of the existing herds to save the species from extinction.”

About the Majestic American Bison: Genocide and Recovery

Ozark Valley Bison Farm: About the North American Buffalo
www.ozarkbisons.com www.ozarkbisons.com

I would hate to see it……. for a lot of different reasons but if big game management was privatized, and they gave JakeH a contract, with a viable population objective, coupled with a significant monetary incentive, to manage the worst unit in Utah, he would turn it into the best unit……. in 10 years or less. Further more JakeH could and would keep it viable during the worst winters and the worst droughts etc…… exactly like livestockmen do every day, and have done for decades.

JakeH would care for big game on the unit different than the bureaucrats do. He would manage public hunters different than the bureaucrats do. He would deal with predators differently than the bureaucrats do. He would manage habitat differently than the bureaucrats do. He would charge more for hunting tags than the bureaucrats. He wouldn’t give two sh!ts what your or my opinions are. He would allow market pressures to determine his profit/loss bottom line.

Would you support a government system that would support such a privatized system? NO WAY IN HELL.

Many of you have already said, you’re already convinced public land hunting is going to come to any end, so you’re going to hunt all you can until it’s gone.

I’ve said a number of times on this forum that I too believe public hunting on public land is going to come to an end soon, and the only big game hunting there will be will be on private ranches/properties. BECAUSE, the bureaucracy will not do what needs to be done and they’ve convinced too many sportsmen there is nothing that can be done, BUT that is utter nonsense.

The bureaucracy can……if they would. They won’t. Start looking to private landhunting as your future.

That’s my story and I’m sticking too it.
 
RIGHT ON Lumpy!

HELL- RIGHT!

HELL-RIGHT!

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!

I'm Voting Lumpy In To Take Over The DWR!

Sorry I'm Leaving You With Such A F'N Mess To Straighten Out!
 
No Doubt The Drought/Feed Is A Big Issue Jake!

So After Posting The Numbers You Did Jake!

Can You See Why I've Always Been Against The BS BUCK TO DOE MANAGEMENT?

Look at Then BUCK TO DOE Ratio Numbers!

Perty Damn Impressive Isn't It?

That's What Most Will Think!

When In Reality The Herd SUCKS!

And SUCKS Big Time!

Down To 900 Head!

About 360 Bucks!

Leaving About 540 Does & Fawns!

Subtract The Fawns & We Don't Know The Exact Number Of Does Old Enough To Reproduce But You Get The Idea!

We/They Expect This Small Herd To Multiply & Grow?

Add All The Other Factors In That Effects This Herd & Here The Hell We Are!

As You've Heard Me For Decades & I'll Say It Again & Again:

Until We Start Managing For Numbers Of Deer In This State You Can Kiss It Goodbye!

This BS Buck To Doe Management Is By Far The Worst Type Of Management Ever Put In Place!

The Sad Part is Most DRATS Will Wet Themselves When Looking At The Numbers You Posted Jake!

And I Quote:

BY GAWD I'M GONNA BE HUNTING WHERE THERE IS 40 BUCKS PER 100 DOES!

Yup!

And The Total Number Of Deer On The Unit Ain't Worth a Damn!

I Will Now Wait For Nillers & hawky's Replies!

Can't Wait To Hear Their Excuses!





JakeH said:
I think the drought years has had a much larger effect on the deer herds than even the biologists thought it would. And not only on the Henerys but across the whole state. It will be interesting to see how things go if we can get a good string of years with above average moisture like the last two years. The snow has definitely not did us any favors this year but hopefully it will all work out for the better.

I know there are a ton of other problems, but I'm really starting to think the worst problems are not under our control.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
You Need To F'N COOL IT Hossy!

The Last Couple Of Years in Your Backyard Have Not Impressed Me!

You Need To Buy The Tag With Your MUD DOBBIN Job & Go Hunt It!

You'd Be In The Passenger Side Of The Toyota!

And Thinking:

LOOK AT ME!

The Guy Driving The Toyota Would Guide You For Free!

With The Exception Of Some Insignia On Some Pictures!

You'd Be Proud As All HELL Parading That PISSCUTTER Around Town!

You Could Write A Story Up & Put It In The Magazines On How Tough Of A F'N Hunt It Was!

Maybe Start Your Own Instagram Page!

You'd Be F'N Famous!
Click to expand...


Well, at least we now know your frame if reference. The home to the biggest deer in the state, year after year, and "have not impressed me".

I didn't know they still did lead flanges in the basin.

I'll gladly take you seriously when you tear up that tag.

I believe the expo, mainly $fw is a cancer. SO I DONT GO. I don't go, then *****.

What is funny, is you go support your local special interest group each Feb, you see the very people who WILL hunt, you see the animals on display they paid to hunt, yet somehow you think a dude, who kills a deer every few years, is an "opportunist", yet the same dudes, paying 5 figures, to hunt the top units YEARLY, arent?

Even funnier that you think YOU or your family would benefit from closing any unit.

It will just reopen as an LE, with a pile of "conservation" tags on it, and you will be sitting home telling stories about the "good ole days".

That group you hand your hard earned money to each Feb, pushes for that daily(behind closed doors of course), publically they are all for "the average guy", whom they get little money from?
 
JUDAS Hossy!

I Go To The EXPO To Validate & Talk To Friends From All Over Once A F'N Year!

For I Have SINNED!

The Only Legal Gambling I Can Do & You're PISSED About It!

I Could Venture Another 100 Miles & Drop It Off in Wendover If That Makes You Feel Any Better?

I've Tore More Tags Up Than Most,By Far More Than You,PISSCUTTERS Just Ain't My Thing But Keep Your Push For OPPORTUNITY!

You Need To PAY THE F ATTENTION!

I'm Not For CLOSING UNITS Like You're Boasting!

I've Seen It Happen & It Happened Because Of PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!

Take The Car Key Out of You Ear,Will Ya?

GEEZUS!

Proper Management Would Never Equal Closures!

You Understand That Part?

Have A Nice Day At Work Hossy!



hossblur said:
Well, at least we now know your frame if reference. The home to the biggest deer in the state, year after year, and "have not impressed me".

I didn't know they still did lead flanges in the basin.

I'll gladly take you seriously when you tear up that tag.

I believe the expo, mainly $fw is a cancer. SO I DONT GO. I don't go, then *****.

What is funny, is you go support your local special interest group each Feb, you see the very people who WILL hunt, you see the animals on display they paid to hunt, yet somehow you think a dude, who kills a deer every few years, is an "opportunist", yet the same dudes, paying 5 figures, to hunt the top units YEARLY, arent?

Even funnier that you think YOU or your family would benefit from closing any unit.

It will just reopen as an LE, with a pile of "conservation" tags on it, and you will be sitting home telling stories about the "good ole days".

That group you hand your hard earned money to each Feb, pushes for that daily(behind closed doors of course), publically they are all for "the average guy", whom they get little money from?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
JUDAS Hossy!

I Go To The EXPO To Validate & Talk To Friends From All Over Once A F'N Year!

For I Have SINNED!

The Only Legal Gambling I Can Do & You're PISSED About It!

I Could Venture Another 100 Miles & Drop It Off in Wendover If That Makes You Feel Any Better?

I've Tore More Tags Up Than Most,By Far More Than You,PISSCUTTERS Just Ain't My Thing But Keep Your Push For OPPORTUNITY!

You Need To PAY THE F ATTENTION!

I'm Not For CLOSING UNITS Like You're Boasting!

I've Seen It Happen & It Happened Because Of PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!

Take The Car Key Out of You Ear,Will Ya?

GEEZUS!

Proper Management Would Never Equal Closures!

You Understand That Part?

Have A Nice Day At Work Hossy!
Click to expand...


Bullshit.

Sorry bud, but that is bullshit.

I promise, Mrs Bess ain't gonna buy the "I just am meeting my friends at the strip club, but I don't support looking at naked women", line.

And yeah,you can ride over and bs with the fellas and not pay $fw for the privilege. That's just an excuse. Same with the "gambling" line. Wyoming has lotto, and it's no further than SLC.

You are an opportunist. But worse. You don't just want your opportunity of yearly deer tag, you want the opportunity of jumping the point schemes. And that outweighs any "management" rant you make.

It's not personal. But I read the yearly "who going to the expo" threads, and the same guys show up, support $fw, then ***** about management.

Some of the loudest voices, actually buy vendor space from them, to profit off of them, then talk about how management has failed for 40 years($fw started in 93').

You don't fix lung cancer by just smoking on special occasions. You have to cut it out, chemo it, radiate it.

We were lied to in 93'. We all naively believed we were all in it together. By the time some woke up, the tentacles were in.

Now, a bunch of dudes, are fine selling out their kids, the next generation, tradition, or a legacy, for "just a little taste"

I doubt you've torn up more tags, I'm just honest about wanting one every year
 
JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!

Hossy!

I Bought A Can Of Salsa At The EXPO!

And Now You're PISSED About It Saying I'm Supporting Everything That Goes On Out There!

WRONG!

Oh I Bought Some Roasted Cashews Too!

I Told You!

In Your Eyes I Have SINNED!

Question Hossy?

Do You Put In For Any Draw Tags Through The Big Game Drawing?

Now That's a Perty GAWD-DAMNED DUMB Question!

They're All Draw Tags!

You're Supporting People That Make Poor Decisions With Poor Management!

But By GAWD You Get Your PISSCUTTER Tag Every Year!
 
Thought I'd Get a THAT'S BULLSSSHHIT Response From Hossy?

So Hossy?

You Want Me To Quit Going To The EXPO?

For Me Alone To Quit Going Fixes Nothing!

There Ain't Been A Bess Boy Anywhere In The Family Pull A Tag Of Any kind!

But Hey!

If It Makes You Feel Better.......................!
 
elkassassin said:
JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!

Hossy!

I Bought A Can Of Salsa At The EXPO!

And Now You're PISSED About It Saying I'm Supporting Everything That Goes On Out There!

WRONG!

Oh I Bought Some Roasted Cashews Too!

I Told You!

In Your Eyes I Have SINNED!

Question Hossy?

Do You Put In For Any Draw Tags Through The Big Game Drawing?

Now That's a Perty GAWD-DAMNED DUMB Question!

They're All Draw Tags!

You're Supporting People That Make Poor Decisions With Poor Management!

But By GAWD You Get Your PISSCUTTER Tag Every Year!
Click to expand...


No. Not evil.

Just a hypocrite.

I've not made it a secret, I'm an opportunist.

You are too, you just pretend you're not. You want it both ways. You want closures, tag cuts, BUT FOR The OTHER GUY.

I'm sure when THE DON gives his presentation (lobbying) about why $fw needs whatever, or wants whatever, by reminding the legislature 47,000 dudes support them, that he then says, " wait, to be correct, 46,999 supporters and one dude who buys salsa"
?
 
elkassassin said:
Thought I'd Get a THAT'S BULLSSSHHIT Response From Hossy?

So Hossy?

You Want Me To Quit Going To The EXPO?

For Me Alone To Quit Going Fixes Nothing!

There Ain't Been A Bess Boy Anywhere In The Family Pull A Tag Of Any kind!

But Hey!

If It Makes You Feel Better.......................!
Click to expand...


So mammas good if you hit the strip club, but not get a lap dance?

Try that
 
WTH Is Bothering You Hossy?

You've Always Been Cuntankerous!

But Here Lately I Sense Somethings Up?

You Gotta Buy More Chain Saws This Year Or What?
 
Last edited:
So do more deer/elk die by tag holders/ humters or By other means, predator's, weather, highway, sickness, old age etc etc
I just wonder which cause is the biggest.
 
It's all cumulative. But males are targeted by hunting for the most part.

Females are for adding to the population. The argument comes from how many males are needed to reproduce.

A bunch of males on this site have the audacity of believing they have any effect.
 
Gator said:
So do more deer/elk die by tag holders/ humters or By other means, predator's, weather, highway, sickness, old age etc etc
I just wonder which cause is the biggest.
Click to expand...
Probably depends on the year and circumstances on the unit.

If 1000 does have an average of 1.5 fawns each. Thats, 1500 fawn born, every year.

If it’s a healthy unit, healthy for deer that is, 75 to 80 per 100 does will survey through the first year. 80/100 means of the 1500 fawns born, 1,200 fawns will survive the first year.

On the other hand, if it’s a unit loaded with predators, or desert dry, or always bitter cold winters, highly urban, etc etc, a 1000 does herd may only give birth to 1200 fawns. If conditions are such that starvation, predation, road mortality, limited land due to urban develope and their fawn to doe ration is 45/100 does, a 1000 does my only produce 540 fawns that survive a year.

And not one of those deer are killed by a hunter. So we loose most of our deer from something other than hunting.

That’s been my observation over the years.
 
elkassassin said:
The LE Units Both Elk & Deer Are Not Even Close To What They Once Were!

Hate To Break The News!

But Your Quality Has Been Traded For Opportunity!

This State Will Produce Quality Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly & Not For F'N Money!

And GREED!
Click to expand...
That's exactly the idea.

We can't have LE units "once in a lifetime" .

We can't manage for 10.5 year old bulls and address point creep.

10.5 year old bulls don't mean "quality" it means 90% bulls that the 25 year point people don't want to take home.
 
Hey GATOR!

It's A Combination Of Many,Many,Many Issues!

Alot of DRATS Blame One Reason Why!

When People Start Realizing There Are 50+ Reasons Why!

Something Might Change!

The Deer Herd Should Be Extinct Long Before That Ever Happens though!

Everybody Saying:

It's Not Just Utah!

Yup!

That's Right!

Every State Around Us Turning Bucks in to Buck$!

Gator said:
So do more deer/elk die by tag holders/ humters or By other means, predator's, weather, highway, sickness, old age etc etc
I just wonder which cause is the biggest.
Click to expand...
 
We need to start somewhere one problem at a time.
More Feed and safety from road kill would be a great start,
 
We've Seen The Let's FIX ONE PROBLEM AT A TIME Forever Now!

It Ain't F'N Working!

50+ Issues!

How Many Years Do You Wanna Take & Try hawky's BABY STEPS?



Gator said:
We need to start somewhere one problem at a time.
More Feed and safety from road kill would be a great start,
Click to expand...
 
Gator-

Elkassassin is a hopeless cause. Rather than do anything, he would rather sit back and complain that any effort suggested or made to help our deer herds is not enough — so why even try? We have seen it over and over again:

“Let’s feed the starving deer.” NOPE, THAT WON’T WORK!

“Let’s fence high mortality highways.” THAT WON’T SOLVE THE PROBLEM!

“Let’s improve mule deer habitat.” THERE ARE NO DEER LEFT TO USE THE HABITAT! COME OUT TO THE BASIN AND I’LL SHOW YOU!

“Let’s limit new and evolving hunting technology.” THAT’S NOT FAIR AND IT MIGHT IMPACT HOW I HUNT!

“Let’s make it easier for sportsmen to harvest more mountain lions in an effort to help our deer.” THE STATE DID NOT FOLLOW THE PROPER PROCESS AND THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY LIONS ANYWAY!

Elkassassin will never support any idea or conservation effort because he would rather just sit back and complain. If you ask him to identify one specific change that will benefit mule deer, we will twist and turn and then eventually scream: “HELL RIGHT!”

I know that elkassassin has already changed him name on this forum several time over the years but I think we should all petition Founder to permanently change his mm.com handle to EEYORE.

Hawkeye
 
Hey hawky!

You Know Damn Well One Littlre PISSCUTTER Change Will Fix Nothing!

But We Can Try Another BABY STEP Move Every 5 Years & Study What Happened!

How Many More Years Will This Deer Herd Last Going The Direction It's Been Going For The Last 50 F'N Years?

(((Answer Please!)))

It Would Take Some Major Changes!

None Of You Opportunists Could Stand it Though!

You've Forgot What Is On HELL-F'N-RIGHT Evidently!

Identify One Change That Would Help?

FOR GAWDS SAKES I've Named Numerous Things That Would Help!

You Think One Change Will Fix It?

You're Smarter Than That!



Hawkeye said:
Gator-

Elkassassin is a hopeless cause. Rather than do anything, he would rather sit back and complain that any effort suggested or made to help our deer herds is not enough — so why even try? We have seen it over and over again:

“Let’s feed the starving deer.” NOPE, THAT WON’T WORK!

“Let’s fence high mortality highways.” THAT WON’T SOLVE THE PROBLEM!

“Let’s improve mule deer habitat.” THERE ARE NO DEER LEFT TO USE THE HABITAT! COME OUT TO THE BASIN AND I’LL SHOW YOU!

“Let’s limit new and evolving hunting technology.” THAT’S NOT FAIR AND IT MIGHT IMPACT HOW I HUNT!

“Let’s make it easier for sportsmen to harvest more mountain lions in an effort to help our deer.” THE STATE DID NOT FOLLOW THE PROPER PROCESS AND THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY LIONS ANYWAY!

Elkassassin will never support any idea or conservation effort because he would rather just sit back and complain. If you ask him to identify one specific change that will benefit mule deer, we will twist and turn and then eventually scream: “HELL RIGHT!”

I know that elkassassin has already changed him name on this forum several time over the years but I think we should all petition Founder to permanently change his mm.com handle to EEYORE.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
EEYORE-

That is a great song and quite appropriate. You piss all over every idea and proposal that anybody comes up with to help our deer herds. You critique and throw rocks but offer no constructive solutions.

Hawkeye
 
OK hawky!

A Couple Questions For You & Niller!

I Think It Was JakeH That Asked Me What I'd Do On The Henrie's Unit To Help It?

Even Though I Don't Like To See Tag Numbers Cut,I Said I'd Cut Some Tags Back!

I'd Rather Try Several Things Before Seeing a Unit/Units CLOSED!

(((You 2 Understand That Part?)))

Of Course I Got Jumped Mentioning Cutting a Few Tags!

Then JakeH Posts Us The Information When In Fact The DWR Has Been Cutting a few Tags,Which I Did Not Know Until JakeH Posted The Numbers!

My Direct Question To Both Of You Is:

Are You Two As Mad At The DWR For Cutting A Few Tags On The Henrie's as You Are At Me For Mentioning Cutting a few Tags When In Fact It's Already Been Happening?

I Do Expect Answers From Both Of You Without Some Kinda Beating Around The Bush BS Answers?





Hawkeye said:
EEYORE-

That is a great song and quite appropriate. You piss all over every idea and proposal that anybody comes up with to help our deer herds. You critique and throw rocks but offer no constructive solutions.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
EEYORE-

I am headed out the door to meetings, and will be out of pocket for the next several hours, but I did not want you to think I was ignoring you.

I don’t mind the DWR cutting some tags if it’s called for under the management plan and herd numbers are decreasing. But I certainly do not believe that cutting a few buck tags on the Henry Mountains unit is going to grow the herd. Bucks don’t give birth. And as I said many times before, hunters are not the limiting factor for our deer herds.

I have already explained my position on this issue several times. In an effort to refresh your recollection, I’m going to re-post what I posted on the other MDF thread:

If you go back and read my posts over the years, I have been consistent in stating that the problems facing mule deer are complex and multifaceted, and include predators, loss of habitat, degradation of habitat, drought, difficult winters, increased auto mortality, increased competition with elk, disease, increased human pressure, improved hunting technology, poor management, political changes, etc. I do not think we will ever return to mule deer numbers of the 50s through 80s. Why? Because it is impossible to turn back the clock and return to the conditions that existed back then.

Does that mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing? No. I appreciate each decision, change in law, habitat project, change in management, etc., that helps our struggling herds. If you open your eyes and look around, you will realize that every western state is facing the same issues. For years Colorado was the envy of every western state when it came to mule deer but their deer herds are currently struggling both in quantity and quality just like Utah. No western state has solved this problem.

I’m no expert and frankly I hope I’m wrong but I predict things will not get significantly better during my lifetime. We will see short periods of improvement and increased numbers but then a difficult winter or other event will come along that will set us back significantly. I’m do not expect to see us ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting. So get out and enjoy what we have now. Go hunting and make memories. If you care so much about our herds, get involved and make difference. Let your voice be heard. As bad as things are right now, they may be worse in the future, particularly when it comes to drawing tags and having the opportunity to hunt. 20 years from now, you may wait decades to draw a OIL tag to chase a “Basin Pisscutter.” ? Hunting will likely be an elite rich man’s sport that primarily takes place on fenced private preserves. It makes me sick but we are already headed that direction.

Hawkeye
 
All That hawky That You've Posted Several Times & You Didn't Answer My Simple Question?

Waiting For Nillers Answer!

It's a One Word Answer!

I Don't Really Need The Many Paragraphs Posted Again!

Hawkeye said:
EEYORE-

I am headed out the door to meetings, and will be out of pocket for the next several hours, but I did not want you to think I was ignoring you.

I don’t mind the DWR cutting some tags if it’s called for under the management plan and herd numbers are decreasing. But I certainly do not believe that cutting a few buck tags on the Henry Mountains unit is going to grow the herd. Bucks don’t give birth. And as I said many times before, hunters are not the limiting factor for our deer herds.

I have already explained my position on this issue several times. In an effort to refresh your recollection, I’m going to re-post what I posted on the other MDF thread:

If you go back and read my posts over the years, I have been consistent in stating that the problems facing mule deer are complex and multifaceted, and include predators, loss of habitat, degradation of habitat, drought, difficult winters, increased auto mortality, increased competition with elk, disease, increased human pressure, improved hunting technology, poor management, political changes, etc. I do not think we will ever return to mule deer numbers of the 50s through 80s. Why? Because it is impossible to turn back the clock and return to the conditions that existed back then.

Does that mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing? No. I appreciate each decision, change in law, habitat project, change in management, etc., that helps our struggling herds. If you open your eyes and look around, you will realize that every western state is facing the same issues. For years Colorado was the envy of every western state when it came to mule deer but their deer herds are currently struggling both in quantity and quality just like Utah. No western state has solved this problem.

I’m no expert and frankly I hope I’m wrong but I predict things will not get significantly better during my lifetime. We will see short periods of improvement and increased numbers but then a difficult winter or other event will come along that will set us back significantly. I’m do not expect to see us ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting. So get out and enjoy what we have now. Go hunting and make memories. If you care so much about our herds, get involved and make difference. Let your voice be heard. As bad as things are right now, they may be worse in the future, particularly when it comes to drawing tags and having the opportunity to hunt. 20 years from now, you may wait decades to draw a OIL tag to chase a “Basin Pisscutter.” ? Hunting will likely be an elite rich man’s sport that primarily takes place on fenced private preserves. It makes me sick but we are already headed that direction.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
 
And I Quote from hawky:

Does that mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing? No. I appreciate each decision, change in law, habitat project, change in management, etc., that helps our struggling herds. If you open your eyes and look around, you will realize that every western state is facing the same issues. For years Colorado was the envy of every western state when it came to mule deer but their deer herds are currently struggling both in quantity and quality just like Utah. No western state has solved this problem.

Maybe Not Solved This Problem!

But Damn Sure Caused The Problem!

Just Don't Wanna Admit It!

Bucks Turned in to Buck$!

You Understand That Part hawky?
 
elkassassin said:
I Do Expect Answers From Both Of You Without Some Kinda Beating Around The Bush BS Answers?
Click to expand...

Good hell this has to be the single most hypocritical post ever recorded on MM…and that’s saying something! From the king of beating around the bush and not answering questions!

Yes, it’s stupid to cut tags on the Henry’s under current conditions. This is what happens when folks prioritize inches and dollar signs over biology. You keep talking about selling bucks for buck$ and don’t realize how dumb that statement truly is Bess! Who is selling the Henry Mountains bucks? General deer hunters and the DWR or your boys at SFW you keep supporting that are running our herd into the ground?

Sorry to be harsh, but you asked for it!

Cutting buck tags when buck:doe is 60+:100 on an isolated unit like the Henry’s is asinine and people pushing for that should be jailed. Just wait for HELL RIGHT 2 I’ve got cooking up!
 
As Expected!

Neither One Of You Answered An Easy Question!

Neither F'N One Of You!

So Niller?

I'll Ask One More Time:

Are You More Mad At The DWR For Already Cutting Henry Tags?

Or More Mad at Me For Mentioning It?

You Gonna Jail The DWR Because They've Cut Tags In Recent Years on the Henries Unit? (((GAWD I Love This Niller!)))

I'm Perty Damn Sure I Know Your Answer But You Won't Say It!

I've Already Claimed HELL-F'N-RIGHT 2!

You'll Have To Use HELL-F'N-RIGHT 3!:D



Vanilla said:
Good hell this has to be the single most hypocritical post ever recorded on MM…and that’s saying something! From the king of beating around the bush and not answering questions!

Yes, it’s stupid to cut tags on the Henry’s under current conditions. This is what happens when folks prioritize inches and dollar signs over biology. You keep talking about selling bucks for buck$ and don’t realize how dumb that statement truly is Bess! Who is selling the Henry Mountains bucks? General deer hunters and the DWR or your boys at SFW you keep supporting that are running our herd into the ground?

Sorry to be harsh, but you asked for it!

Cutting buck tags when buck:doe is 60+:100 on an isolated unit like the Henry’s is asinine and people pushing for that should be jailed. Just wait for HELL RIGHT 2 I’ve got cooking up!
Click to expand...
 
Might be if you draw a tag in a unit that is hit hard by the winter kill take a break and not use the tag.
 
JakeH said:
Year:/ total tags/trophy tags/ management tags.
2010: 63. / 45. / 18
2011: 75. / 45. / 30
2012: 78. / 48. / 30
2013: 75. / 46 / 29
2014: 77. / 47. / 30
2015: 76. / 47 / 29
2016: 74. / 46. / 28
2017: 80. / 51. / 29
2018: 70. / 45. / 25
2019: 61. / 52. / 9
2020: 64. / 54. / 10
2021: 53. / 53. / 0
2022: 51. / 51. / 0



But wait there's more!!!

Keep in mind the DWR have a herd objective of 2700 animals for the unit. I am also going to put the buck to doe ratio for each year as well, and the fawn to doe ratio as well.

The DWR Manage for 40-55 bucks per 100 does.

It will look like this.
Year- population/ buck:doe / fawn:doe

2010- 1200 / 61:100 / ??:100
2011- 1400 / 52:100 / 54:100
2012- 1900 / 55:100 / 74:100
2013- 1800 / 56:100 / 60:100
2014- 2200 / 48:100 / 81:100
2015- 2400 / 65:100 / 76:100
2016- 2200 / 47:100 / 65:100
2017- 1900 / 41:100 / 53:100
2018- 1600 / 44:100 / 38:100
2019- 1000 / 37:100 / 57:100
2020- 900 / 31:100 / 53:100
2021- 900. / 40:100 / 40:100
Click to expand...
Bess they dropped tag numbers as soon as the buck to doe ratio dropped below 40:100. That is when they cut out all the management buck tags. I am not going to fault the DWR for managing the unit exactly how they say they are going to.

Here is my question to you bess, they have done exactly what you said you would have done on the henerys, but the herd has still dropped by more than half in the last 7 years, in fact the more interesting thing to note is the herd doubled itself and then tanked again in the last 11 years.

So bess what should they have done differently to keep the herd from tanking? They cut the buck tags, like you said you would have done. I'm not sure how much help that will be in the grand scheme of things. So what else should the DWR have done differently the last decade to keep the herd from falling like it did?
 
JakeH said:
Bess they dropped tag numbers as soon as the buck to doe ratio dropped below 40:100. That is when they cut out all the management buck tags. I am not going to fault the DWR for managing the unit exactly how they say they are going to.

Here is my question to you bess, they have done exactly what you said you would have done on the henerys, but the herd has still dropped by more than half in the last 7 years, in fact the more interesting thing to note is the herd doubled itself and then tanked again in the last 11 years.

So bess what should they have done differently to keep the herd from tanking? They cut the buck tags, like you said you would have done. I'm not sure how much help that will be in the grand scheme of things. So what else should the DWR have done differently the last decade to keep the herd from falling like it did?
Click to expand...
Excellent homework Jake!!
This goes to show with facts and data that hunting bucks is the least of our problems.

Yes, the top end bucks get skimmed off like cream on milk, but what's happening to our recruitment stock on an LE unit?
 
elkassassin said:
As Expected!

Neither One Of You Answered An Easy Question!

Neither F'N One Of You!
Click to expand...

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I answered with a “yes.”

Then I explained why. You’re not that dense bessy. Quit playing like you are.

Actually, if you think hunting bucks on the Henry’s is why the unit is suffering, you probably are that dense. So never mind that.
 
Well Jake!

You & Every Other MM'ER On Here Has Heard Me Say It Many Times!

We Need To Start Managing For Numbers Of Deer!

And PISS ON THE BUCK TO DOE BS RATIO MANAGEMENT!

WE NEED MORE DEER!

MORE BREEDING STOCK!

CAN ANYBODY F'N HEAR ME?

I GUESS NOT?

As I've Said Many a Times Jake!

I Surely Don't Have All The Answers!

But We Damn Sure Need To Quit Doing STUPID SHHITT!

To Keep Reducing/Destroying what's Left Of The Henries Herd Will Only End In Another CLOSURE!

Do Any Of Us Wanna See That?

I'll Never Hunt The Unit!

And The Answer is NO,We Don't wanna see That!

For The BILLIONTH F'N Time!

Until Hunters/Sportsmen/DWR Accepts The 50+ Reasons Why Nothing Good Will Ever Happen!

I've Offered To Place Money Wagers With Several MM'ERS on What's Gonna Happen In The Future & Not One Damn Sole wants To Place A Bet!

It's Getting Real Close To Being FUBAR again!







JakeH said:
Bess they dropped tag numbers as soon as the buck to doe ratio dropped below 40:100. That is when they cut out all the management buck tags. I am not going to fault the DWR for managing the unit exactly how they say they are going to.

Here is my question to you bess, they have done exactly what you said you would have done on the henerys, but the herd has still dropped by more than half in the last 7 years, in fact the more interesting thing to note is the herd doubled itself and then tanked again in the last 11 years.

So bess what should they have done differently to keep the herd from tanking? They cut the buck tags, like you said you would have done. I'm not sure how much help that will be in the grand scheme of things. So what else should the DWR have done differently the last decade to keep the herd from falling like it did?
Click to expand...
 

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