Elk management by age objectives.

JakeH · Jan 12, 2023

I want to approach something with an effort to make everyone more knowledgeable about why the state manages by age objectives. I also want to see if I can get some participation from everyone to post a picture of bulls you or someone you know have killed with the age and score. If you killed your bull in Utah and sent off your teeth you should be able to get the age from your surveys tab in your online profile on the dwr website. Also let us know what weapon type you used to kill the bull.

For education purposes I'm posting this video, it is from the DWR work session from Aug. 2022. There is a ton of useful information in this video for those that care to watch the whole 4+ hour thing. But for this post the most useful bit starts at around the 45 minute mark and goes to the 1 hour mark, this is where they discuss age objectives.
(The audio is a bit glitchy but you can understand most of what is said)

Anyway it will be interesting to see posts from everyone with bulls they have killed with scores, and ages attached. I will gather up what I can find from the people I know that have killed bulls.

elkhunterUT · Jan 12, 2023

Here is my 2020 muzzleloader bull. Scored 354” and was tooth aged at 13 years old.

JakeH · Jan 12, 2023

Here are some I know of.

Archery bull, scored 336 age 13

Mid rifle bull scored 349, age 4

Archery bull, scored 307 age 9

JakeH · Jan 12, 2023

Archery bull, scored 320, age 6

JakeH · Jan 12, 2023

Late rifle, score 361, age 8

GLEDEASY · Jan 12, 2023

Early rifle, 360", age 7

Archery, 335", age 12

Late rifle, 310", age 5

Early rifle, 320", age 6

These bulls all come from a unit with a current age obj of 5.5 to 6.

JakeH · Jan 12, 2023

Archery, score 333, age 8

LIK2HNT · Jan 12, 2023

Good thread. Keep them coming.

twopointdn · Jan 12, 2023

I only have the age on three of my bulls.

Utah LE Archery. I did not score the bull. Shot it on the last day. The smaller 5x6 bull and the Age is 4 years old.

Utah LE Archery. Score 302” and the age is 6 years old. Bigger 5x6 bull.

Utah General Any Bull Muzzleloader. Score 350” and age is 12 years old. 6x7 bull.

Fun post, I like age data, it is fun to know the age of the animals I get. Have fun.

JakeH · Jan 13, 2023

Here is an interesting slide that I pulled from the video I posted in the start of this thread.

It shows the average age by weapon type in each of the 4 age objectives that we had previous to this year. (Now only 3 age objectives rather than 4)

The thing I find fascinating about that graph is that the oldest bulls are being killed during archery season on the oldest age class objective units.

Why is that? Well, most archery hunters will kill a big mature bull that doesn't score as well when given the opportunity.

Most rifle hunters are holding out for the biggest scoring bulls, so they are inevitably killing younger bulls with better genetics.

And it's not just the older age objective that has that trend, it holds true through 3 of the 4 age objectives, the archery hunters are killing the older bulls.

The main difference is the 4.5 to 5 year old age class, in that one the early rifle sees a significant jump, my theory there is that bulls need to see 5 years old to really start getting bigger, the early rifle has first go at all the biggest bulls so most of the older bulls are getting wacked on that hunt before the other rifle season get a chance at them.

Very interesting graphic I thought everyone would like to see.

Vanilla · Jan 13, 2023

I don’t know that your “Why is that?” question is accurately answered as simply as you did.

Many of the biggest bulls killed every year in this state are killed on the archery hunts. People involved in killing these giants are often saying if they could pick any tag it would be archery because they can find the bulls, pattern them, and then kill then before they become nomadic during the rut, when often all bets are off on finding these giants.

Is your explanation “A” reason? Possibly, but it certainly isn’t the only explanation.

elkhunterUT · Jan 13, 2023

Vanilla said:
Many of the biggest bulls killed every year in this state are killed on the archery hunts.

I don't believe that is true at all - what data are you using to back that claim? Some, yes but definitely not "many".

If that really is true, why aren't more people putting in for archery tags?

Vanilla · Jan 13, 2023

The data I’m using is seeing public posts about the topic with pictures of those bulls.

I promise you there is zero data available measuring size of bulls for any weapons out there in Utah. Zero, it doesn’t exist outside of anecdotal i incidents, which is what I’m referring to.

You may need to review the definition of the word “many” before you freak out too much about my post.

elkhunterUT · Jan 13, 2023

Ha ha - no freaking out here, just curious where you got the data to back the claim. Many is a majority, no? You know, as well as I do, that in reality rifle hunters kill the majority of the BIGGEST bulls in this state.

I haven't quite figured out your irrational distaste for bowhunters, so I never really know what angle you are taking whenever the subject comes up

JakeH · Jan 13, 2023

elkhunterUT said:
I haven't quite figured out your irrational distaste for bowhunters, so I never really know what angle you are taking whenever the subject comes up

You know he is all for giving out more archery tags as long as we stay inside the arbitrary 25% quota the division has set up. ?

middlefork · Jan 13, 2023

A higher percentage of archery tags would result in the same pool of archers getting tags more often. Which is good for them but not agreeable to others. You may have an increase in archers but I don't think it would be as great as some think. And for that matter why would you want them.

The ALW guys are already waiting longer to hunt. They have already made a choice. Be glad they aren't pushing a 90/5/5 split.

Archery hunting is tough. I know I am one. But the ALW guys are now finding they are going to have to make some tough decisions. The bulk of higher tag numbers and success rates will come from ALW hunters and it will eventually lower the average size.

Vitalwave · Jan 13, 2023

JakeH said:
Here is an interesting slide that I pulled from the video I posted in the start of this thread.

It shows the average age by weapon type in each of the 4 age objectives that we had previous to this year. (Now only 3 age objectives rather than 4)
View attachment 99884

The thing I find fascinating about that graph is that the oldest bulls are being killed during archery season on the oldest age class objective units.

Why is that? Well, most archery hunters will kill a big mature bull that doesn't score as well when given the opportunity.

Most rifle hunters are holding out for the biggest scoring bulls, so they are inevitably killing younger bulls with better genetics.

And it's not just the older age objective that has that trend, it holds true through 3 of the 4 age objectives, the archery hunters are killing the older bulls.

The main difference is the 4.5 to 5 year old age class, in that one the early rifle sees a significant jump, my theory there is that bulls need to see 5 years old to really start getting bigger, the early rifle has first go at all the biggest bulls so most of the older bulls are getting wacked on that hunt before the other rifle season get a chance at them.

Very interesting graphic I thought everyone would like to see.

I think what you and the presentation are saying about the data makes sense. However, Im not 100% confident in their response to it yet. I feel like their new plan could go sideways really easy if they aren’t careful with tag numbers.
I’d love to draw another LE archery tag without having to wait 20 years to do it but am also concerned about what happens when these “surplus” bulls that are old with smaller antler genetics are harvested in the first couple years of this new plan? Then what? Now archers and other weapon type hunters alike will be shooting upcoming young bulls before they reach maturity.

I’m trying to stay open minded and time will ultimately tell.

Vitalwave · Jan 13, 2023

I’m hoping I get my tooth data back soon on my bull I shot last year. It’s fun to know. I love seeing everyone’s pictures and ages. Good thread!

middlefork · Jan 13, 2023

My 2011 archery bull was 319" and aged at 7 years. My expectation was a "decent 6 point" or tag soup. I got lucky on the next to the last day after 18 days of hunting. My only legitimate shot opportunity. We had been close a few times but didn't work out.

Part of the question is how many bulls do you need to look at before you decide "ok he's the one". And how long should that take? The average ALW runs about 3 days for successful hunters.

The DWR has already said they are going to go slowly on increasing tags. Much easier to change tag numbers year to year than the elk plan.

GLEDEASY · Jan 13, 2023

I think we argue too much over weapon type. The archery vs ALW vs muzzleloader crowds. The reality is, is that we are all hunters. We have supply vs demand issues when it comes to hunting. We as hunters have choices which weapons we want to use to try and hunt. What we're finding out is the displeasure of having to wait so long to hunt, and the reality of it only getting worse. The DWR is in a no win situation. They're working on coming up with creating more opportunities to lessen the wait time hurt, yet keep the trophy appeal. If the data suggests create more archery tags etc, then so be it. That's a win forever whatever weapon type you prefer. More tags creates more opportunity and you as the hunter gets to decide what you do. I love rifle hunting, but I'm ok figuring out a new weapon type if that's what gives me a better chance at opportunity.

elkassassin · Jan 13, 2023

There Are Big Bulls Killed Every Year With All 3 Weapon Types!

Including That GAWD-AWFUL SmokePole With The DREADED Scope on it!

Vanilla said:
The data I’m using is seeing public posts about the topic with pictures of those bulls.

I promise you there is zero data available measuring size of bulls for any weapons out there in Utah. Zero, it doesn’t exist outside of anecdotal i incidents, which is what I’m referring to.

You may need to review the definition of the word “many” before you freak out too much about my post.

Vanilla · Jan 13, 2023

elkhunterUT said:
I haven't quite figured out your irrational distaste for bowhunters, so I never really know what angle you are taking whenever the subject comes up

I don’t have any issue with bow hunters or bow hunting. I have gone on many bow hunts and helped friends and family that choose that weapon to hunt with. It’s the bow hunters that are selfish elitists I have an issue with, as they are trying to take opportunities away from the vast majority to favor themselves. I will always have a problem with selfish plicks. (To borrow Bessy’s word!) But that isn’t even many bow hunters, let alone a majority of bow hunters. As I’ve said before, that is a very, very small (but loud and whiny) group of people.

Next, I don’t even care if they exceed the 25% allocation Jake. Just don’t exceed it by taking away from others. Increase the size of the pie and give it to archery hunters. Make that proposal and I’ll show up at the board meeting and speak in favor of it with you.

Lastly, no, I don’t know that rifle hunters kill the majority of the biggest bulls. Especially the early rifle. I would be willing to bet if we took the 20 biggest bulls killed in Utah the last 5 years that less than 7 were killed in the early rifle hunt. Of course there is no way to prove this one way or the other, but that is my inclination with what I’ve seen. Late hunt and gov/sportsman tag with rifle may contribute more than the early rifle to this analysis.

huntin50 · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla
you have well thought out posts.
I hunt all three weapons. i have helped more than a dozen friends and families hunt LE elk in all three weapons. Most of the biggest bulls were killed in early rifle hunts. One 360 archery bull out of a dozen. Rut muzzle loader hunt is the next best chance to kill a big bull. Just a small sample.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
Lastly, no, I don’t know that rifle hunters kill the majority of the biggest bulls. Especially the early rifle. I would be willing to bet if we took the 20 biggest bulls killed in Utah the last 5 years that less than 7 were killed in the early rifle hunt. Of course there is no way to prove this one way or the other, but that is my inclination with what I’ve seen. Late hunt and gov/sportsman tag with rifle may contribute more than the early rifle to this analysis.

Less than 7? What you smoking bud? OK so 7 early rifle, and if your "inclination" is right and gov/sportsman's and late hunt take even more, let's say 9 are killed on those, so that leaves 4 to go between muzzy and archery. Well you disproved your own theory about rifle hunters not killing the most.

Are there some big bulls killed during archery? For sure no doubt about it, but the lower success rate matched with the fact that they still only get 25% of the tags and your argument just doesn't hold up. Not even close bud.

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

huntin50 said:
Vanilla
you have well thought out posts.
I hunt all three weapons. i have helped more than a dozen friends and families hunt LE elk in all three weapons. Most of the biggest bulls were killed in early rifle hunts. One 360 archery bull out of a dozen. Rut muzzle loader hunt is the next best chance to kill a big bull. Just a small sample.

I’m not talking about the biggest bulls on average. I’m talking about the top bulls, period.

I 100% agree it will be easier for an average Joe hunter to kill a larger bull on the early rifle than on an archery permit, but that is not what I was talking about.

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

JakeH said:
Less than 7? What you smoking bud? OK so 7 early rifle, and if your "inclination" is right and gov/sportsman's and late hunt take even more, let's say 9 are killed on those, so that leaves 4 to go between muzzy and archery. Well you disproved your own theory about rifle hunters not killing the most.

Are there some big bulls killed during archery? For sure no doubt about it, but the lower success rate matched with the fact that they still only get 25% of the tags and your argument just doesn't hold up. Not even close bud.

Jake, I can point to more than 4 archery bulls off one unit alone that would make this top 20 list over the last 5 years. Tell me I’m smoking something all you want. This really isn’t a big secret amongst those that know.

It’s okay to disagree, and there is no data we could ever produce to prove who is right or wrong because the state doesn’t collect this data. If I killed a 400” bull, none of you would ever know about it because I might post it on my private Instagram account to my 17 followers, and that’s about it. Talk to those that spend the most time on these types of bulls in the units that most often produce them, and listen to when they prefer to hunt them. They will not tell you the early rifle. They all want them killed before that time, and are pretty effective at doing it. A 370 inch bill is absolutely giant, but these aren’t the bulls I’m talking about. We aren’t talking overall success rates or even average size of bull.

I’d bet 10 or more of the 20 biggest bulls over the last 5 years have been archery kills.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
Jake, I can point to more than 4 archery bulls off one unit alone that would make this top 20 list over the last 5 years. Tell me I’m smoking something all you want. This really isn’t a big secret amongst those that know.

It’s okay to disagree, and there is no data we could ever produce to prove who is right or wrong because the state doesn’t collect this data. If I killed a 400” bull, none of you would ever know about it because I might post it on my private Instagram account to my 17 followers, and that’s about it. Talk to those that spend the most time on these types of bulls in the units that most often produce them, and listen to when they prefer to hunt them. They will not tell you the early rifle. They all want them killed before that time, and are pretty effective at doing it. A 370 inch bill is absolutely giant, but these aren’t the bulls I’m talking about. We aren’t talking overall success rates or even average size of bull.

I’d bet 10 or more of the 20 biggest bulls over the last 5 years have been archery kills.

Hey I was just using your own numbers you provided not my fault you can't back up your own claim.

Post em up, since you know the people have them get the age of the bulls too. Contribute to the original intent of my post.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
I’m not talking about the biggest bulls on average. I’m talking about the top bulls, period.

I 100% agree it will be easier for an average Joe hunter to kill a larger bull on the early rifle than on an archery permit, but that is not what I was talking about.

So are you advocating management based in the most extreme examples? Everything I've presented has been an average basis.

There are some absolute killers out there that can get it done no matter what weapon you put in their hands, a lot of them choose archery because they can get the tag in less than half the time. The bulls might be easier to pattern, but they definitely are not easier to kill a lot still has to go right.

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

JakeH said:
Hey I was just using your own numbers you provided not my fault you can't back up your own claim.

Post em up, since you know the people have them get the age of the bulls too. Contribute to the original intent of my post.

Can’t back it up…post it up. You’re starting to sound like tristate.

It makes me think you’re more concerned about sounding right than actually discussing the topic. Have at it if you want to turn into a troll.

If you don’t know the secret of giant bulls on the archery hunts, I won’t make you learn it.

Vitalwave · Jan 14, 2023

Targeting bulls during the archery hunt (or anytime) isn't as easy as it sounds. Its even harder now that cams are banned during the hunt.

What I noticed in my targeting attempts last year is that elk are largely nocturnal during the heat. During the summer before trail cam season ended, I had very few trail cam pictures of elk during day light hours. And when the season started and the temps cooled off they either moved around too much or became rutty chasing cows and it was pretty tricky to pin point where they were going to be.

Great bulls are killed every year with a bow but I would bet more big bulls are killed with other weapon choices.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
Can’t back it up…post it up. You’re starting to sound like tristate.

It makes me think you’re more concerned about sounding right than actually discussing the topic. Have at it if you want to turn into a troll.

If you don’t know the secret of giant bulls on the archery hunts, I won’t make you learn it.

Lmao, really dude?

Didn't ask for the secret to killing bulls during archery season, and I never claimed to be good at it, I don't even care how the bulls were killed.

This whole post was created to try and get people to post pictures of bulls with the score and age attached I was literally asking you to contribute to the post in the manner it was intended. I would love to know the age of 5 of the biggest bulls killed in the state recently. Stop getting all offended.

If there is a troll in these posts it most definitely isn't me, you may want to look in the mirror bud.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
Can’t back it up…post it up. You’re starting to sound like tristate.

It makes me think you’re more concerned about sounding right than actually discussing the topic. Have at it if you want to turn into a troll.

If you don’t know the secret of giant bulls on the archery hunts, I won’t make you learn it.

Lmao, this is literally the most tristate post I have ever seen. ????

Change the subject and attack the person you are debating. Classic tristate move. Bravo he has taught you well.

elkassassin · Jan 14, 2023

DEW'S Are CHILLIN!

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

It was about posting pics of bulls with scores and ages, until it wasn’t. Scroll up, you’ll see my post was a response to someone and directly to what they said.

Any guesses on who it is before you scroll up?

Get your panties in a bunch and then tell people they are smoking something and to “post it up” like your boy, and then play the victim. Where have I seen this before?

Oh well, I tried to have a civil discussion. Some aren’t capable. I can wrestle in the mud with pigs too, I just didn’t think it was goi g to be with you.

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
It was about posting pics of bulls with scores and ages, until it wasn’t. Scroll up, you’ll see my post was a response to someone and directly to what they said.

Any guesses on who it is before you scroll up?

My post you was replying to was completely in line with the original intent of this post. It showed the average age of the bulls killed in each age objective by weapon type. Hence why I posted the video for people to reference with the times the subject was discussed. This is a discussion thread, you are welcome to discuss, not everyone will agree with you. You challenged my narrative, so I did the same to yours.

Vanilla said:
Get your panties in a bunch and then tell people they are smoking something and to “post it up” like your boy, and then play the victim. Where have I seen this before?

Oh well, I tried to have a civil discussion. Some aren’t capable. I can wrestle in the mud with pigs too, I just didn’t think it was goi g to be with you.

Are you really that sensitive that by suggesting you was smoking something, you get completely defensive and start lashing out? Look I was only using your own numbers to debunk your point, it's not my fault you didn't think it out real well.

You didn't like it, and had no rebuttal so you started calling me Tristate and implying I don't know how to kill giant bulls trying to insult me, because your argument wasn't a very good one.

And I had no idea that Tri owned the rights to the phrase "post it up"

I really wanted to see those bulls, I do not doubt one bit they was killed, wasn't claiming they hadn't been, (a key difference in my use of the phrase compared to Tri's) so again please post the bulls if you can find out the age on them.

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

I’ve given PLENTY of rebuttal, Jake. It’s hilarious to watch you project here. You’re hell bent on just arguing with me for some reason, so I will reply to others about this but not you. You simply aren’t worth the effort.

We’ll tussle in the mud when I say we will. Just like with tri.

elkassassin · Jan 14, 2023

Don't Stop Now!

Kicked My Boots Off!

And My DEW Is CHILLED!

Vanilla said:
I’ve given PLENTY of rebuttal, Jake. It’s hilarious to watch you project here. You’re hell bent on just arguing with me for some reason, so I will reply to others about this but not you. You simply aren’t worth the effort.

We’ll tussle in the mud when I say we will. Just like with tri.

twopointdn · Jan 14, 2023

Well the first 9 posts were fun and I thought this would be a interesting and fun thread but it failed. Hopefully the subject comes back down the road and goes better next time. I really like age data and it was fun to see a picture and score to the age.

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

elkassassin said:
Don't Stop Now!

Kicked My Boots Off!

And My DEW Is CHILLED!

Happy to answer any questions you got, Cat!

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

twopointdn said:
Well the first 9 posts were fun and I thought this would be a interesting and fun thread but it failed. Hopefully the subject comes back down the road and goes better next time. I really like age data and it was fun to see a picture and score to the age.

Yeah, it definitely went off the rails, I will start a new post with just pictures and ages and see if we can't get a little more participation.

Try to leave the conversation out of it and hopefully it won't spiral off track again.

Bigwiffy · Jan 14, 2023

Bull: Hurley
Age: 40's
Score: 265

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Bigwiffy said:
View attachment 100091
Bull: Hurley
Age: 40's
Score: 265

That looks like @slamdunk in his muscle milk days. ?

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

twopointdn said:
Well the first 9 posts were fun and I thought this would be a interesting and fun thread but it failed. Hopefully the subject comes back down the road and goes better next time. I really like age data and it was fun to see a picture and score to the age.

New post is up in the elk page, enjoy.

Bigwiffy · Jan 14, 2023

Vanilla said:
Jake, I can point to more than 4 archery bulls off one unit alone that would make this top 20 list over the last 5 years. Tell me I’m smoking something all you want. This really isn’t a big secret amongst those that know.

It’s okay to disagree, and there is no data we could ever produce to prove who is right or wrong because the state doesn’t collect this data. If I killed a 400” bull, none of you would ever know about it because I might post it on my private Instagram account to my 17 followers, and that’s about it. Talk to those that spend the most time on these types of bulls in the units that most often produce them, and listen to when they prefer to hunt them. They will not tell you the early rifle. They all want them killed before that time, and are pretty effective at doing it. A 370 inch bill is absolutely giant, but these aren’t the bulls I’m talking about. We aren’t talking overall success rates or even average size of bull.

I’d bet 10 or more of the 20 biggest bulls over the last 5 years have been archery kills.

17 followers???? C'mon Niller we all know you exaggerate, but 17???