Raghorn, Junk Bull, Pisscutter?

slamdunk · Jan 9, 2023

Since I may be the one who first used the description "Junk Bull" in my Spike thread and it was an unpopular adjective, I figured we better chat about today's expectations on a 20+ year wait for an LE Elk tag.

My comment was used loosely and facetiously due to the nature of the topic in that thread.
All Bull Elk are beautiful animals and are a "Trophy" in someone's eyes regardless of a 4x4 or a 420 incher.

I stated it that way because in today's Elk Hunting world, anything under 350" seems to have a negative nickname.

I've been a professional guide for over 25 years and have worked on leases where a 5x5 makes one hunter just as elated as a 400 does on another.

Haven taken 400+" bulls with clients, as well as 250-300" bulls, I've seen and experienced both ends of the spectrum and love them all.

As for me with a tag in my hand?
It would depend on the Unit and area I'm hunting.
Of course I wouldn't give a second look at a 280" bull on a prime unit, but on an "Any Bull" open unit, I'll put him on the ground in a New York minute and be stoked with success.

On a prime LE unit in TODAY'S Utah Elk world, 350+ should be taken seriously.
Back in the 2005 era, 380's could be passed, but not today.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news ladies and gentlemen, but with more tags given on LE units to reduce age classes to 6.5, our sand has ran out of the hour glass for yesterday's giants.

Get em while there's still a few around for the next few years.

Personally, I think I am a fan of the new Elk Plan.....time will tell.

Soj51hopeful · Jan 9, 2023

Take whatever animal that pleases YOU (that’s legal) and to hell with anybody that it doesn’t please.

elkhunterUT · Jan 9, 2023

Meh-if inches determine your happiness, you are doing it wrong. The overall experience should trump inches every time IMHO.

elkassassin · Jan 9, 2023

Ya!

It Ain't Getting Better!

LE Units Were Originally Set Up For Hunters Willing To Earn Points!

Take Their Turn at Eventually Having A Shot At A Trophy Bull!

If It Keeps Getting Managed The Way It's Been Managed From About 2009 To Present you Can Kiss The Chance At A Trophy Goodbye in the Near Future!

Utah Will Produce Trophy Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly!

Manage It Like It's Currently Being Managed & Here The Hell We Are!

twopointdn · Jan 9, 2023

This is my LE archery bull from last year. I would way rather hunt bulls like this every ten years on LE units than wait 27+ year for a top tier unit. My experience was amazing and I will do it three times before some will draw one so called great tag. Do the math, 3 hunts X 300” and 150 lbs of meat X 3. I get 900” of horn (with so called junk bulls), 450 lbs of meat (if successful on all three hunts) and three times the memories compared to 360” of horn (if your lucky), 150 lbs of meat (if successful) and one memory. I will take junk bulls and more memories more often all day any day. My bull was 6 years old so right on objective. Just my thoughts.

elkantlers · Jan 9, 2023

elkhunterUT said:
Meh-if inches determine your happiness, you are doing it wrong. The overall experience should trump inches every time IMHO.

@elkassassin tell the old lady this often.

MrShane · Jan 9, 2023

twopointdn said:
This is my LE archery bull from last year. I would way rather hunt bulls like this every ten years on LE units than wait 27+ year for a top tier unit. My experience was amazing and I will do it three times before some will draw one so called great tag. Do the math, 3 hunts X 300” and 150 lbs of meat X 3. I get 900” of horn (with so called junk bulls), 450 lbs of meat (if successful on all three hunts) and three times the memories compared to 360” of horn (if your lucky), 150 lbs of meat (if successful) and one memory. I will take junk bulls and more memories more often all day any day. My bull was 6 years old so right on objective. Just my thoughts.

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Nice bull Dave!

2lumpy · Jan 9, 2023

Soj51hopeful said:
Take whatever animal that pleases YOU (that’s legal) and to hell with anybody that it doesn’t please.

That is great advice and would seem to make perfect sense, however if the animal that pleases you isn’t available……… Not because it can’t be but because others insist that making your animal available is keeping them from taking the animal they are pleased with.

It’s the same as the economic theory of guns and butter. You can have more of both……. You can only have more of one, at the expense of the other.

There are losers and winners. If your wondering about who the losers are in the current system ask elkassassin. He has a special way to explain it.

Vitalwave · Jan 9, 2023

I agree that a trophy animal depends on different things for everyone. The experience matter to me a lot but quality is really important to me as well.

Time will tell on the new objectives but I'm very skeptical... I feel like Utah's elk has been one of the few shinning stars with our wildlife over the last couple decades. I think if we aren't careful that could change quickly and start to go backwards. There is no cure for point creep even if they juice out a couple hundred more tags a year. Demand is growing and supply isn't. Simple as that. 10 - 15 years from now we will have the same problem of not being able to draw yet have smaller bulls to go after. Thats just my uneducated opinion. Guides will love the new plan though... more tags = clients.

notdonhunting · Jan 10, 2023

elkassassin said:
Ya!

It Ain't Getting Better!

LE Units Were Originally Set Up For Hunters Willing To Earn Points!

Take Their Turn at Eventually Having A Shot At A Trophy Bull!

If It Keeps Getting Managed The Way It's Been Managed From About 2009 To Present you Can Kiss The Chance At A Trophy Goodbye in the Near Future!

Utah Will Produce Trophy Bucks & Bulls Just About Anywhere in The State When Managed Properly!

Manage It Like It's Currently Being Managed & Here The Hell We Are!

They give more permits for the Manti minus the Wasatch i am not sure which one has more permits. I would dare to bet that they have killed more 400 inch class bulls over the last three years than any three year stretch throughout the history of limited entry of the Manti unit.
Do not compare the Books that are being destroyed by too many ungulets for the amount of quality habitat per ungulet. And then through in the reservation property.
A recipe for disaster.

Robiland · Jan 10, 2023

My thought on this.
You can CHOOSE to wait 27+years to hunt rutting bulls with a rifle. OR
You can choose to wait 5-10 years and hunt them with a bow.
OR
10-15 years with a lesser season.

And just because you may have 27+ points, that does not guarantee you a RUT hunt with a rifle. All it does is give you better odds at drawing a tag. IT does not promise you a 350+ bull or 400+ bull. All it does, when you draw. is give you the opportunity to hunt.
DWR can change all this stuff in 1 year. Will they? No, but they could.
I like to hunt. That is why I prefer the archery tag. Easier to draw. That might be why I have had 2 LE tags for elk, archery.

SPAZ · Jan 10, 2023

"in today's Elk Hunting world, anything under 350" seems to have a negative nickname."

only on the internet

BradA · Jan 10, 2023

Under the new elk management hunt plan how many LE bull tags are going to be offered over 2022? Is that information even disclosed yet?

elkhunterUT · Jan 10, 2023

BradA said:
Under the new elk management hunt plan how many LE bull tags are going to be offered over 2022? Is that information even disclosed yet?

no - we won't see proposals on new tag #'s until March for RAC meetings.

Founder · Jan 10, 2023

Guess I’d better get to burning my 25 points! Been putting it off in favor of deer hunting for a looooong time.

DaveD · Jan 10, 2023

twopointdn said:
This is my LE archery bull from last year. I would way rather hunt bulls like this every ten years on LE units than wait 27+ year for a top tier unit. My experience was amazing and I will do it three times before some will draw one so called great tag. Do the math, 3 hunts X 300” and 150 lbs...

I completely agree with your stance of hunting more often for somewhat lesser bulls.

I was curious about your meat weight... 150 lbs??

twopointdn · Jan 10, 2023

P

DaveD said:
I completely agree with your stance of hunting more often for somewhat lesser bulls.

I was curious about your meat weight... 150 lbs??

Wrapped and in the freezer weight. Just a good guess for my scenario but not actual. All I know is it took me all day to cut and wrap my bull and it was a lot of meat.

DaveD · Jan 10, 2023

twopointdn said:
P

Wrapped and in the freezer weight. Just a good guess for my scenario but not actual. All I know is it took me all day to cut and wrap my bull and it was a lot of meat.

Understood. Bulls that size typically yield well over 200 so was curious.

Togwotee · Jan 10, 2023

From what I'm seeing there are very few hunts in any state where a 350 bull isn't a shooter. the demand for tags just doesn't allow the age class it used to.

My best bull so far is 382 and even with 25 points in UT and CO I'm sure I won't beat that. so I'm looking at fun hunts for 300-350 bulls and I don't care. it is what it is and even though elk hunting's glory days are gone it still beats the hell out of the mule deer hunting these days.

Airborne · Jan 10, 2023

I am a weirdo but the How/Where/When plays a bigger factor to me than the inches

250" Recurve DIY Public Land Killed Bull > 400" Rifle Rut Killed Bull

DIY Spike Killed by a 18 year old kid on Public Land DIY > 400" Conservation tag bought by Mr Money bags, and guided by the best outfitter & his 20 spotters

320" HAMS Killed Bull > 400" Rifle Rut Killed Bull

Any DIY Killed Public Land Bull > Any Guided Killed Bull

400" Mid Grade Unit (Wasatch) Bull > 400" Premium Unit Bull

The harder the weapon, the harder the competition, the more intrinsic value I place on a bull.

Sometimes I feel like we are livestock judges more than hunters

Soj51hopeful · Jan 10, 2023

2lumpy said:
That is great advice and would seem to make perfect sense, however if the animal that pleases you isn’t available……… Not because it can’t be but because others insist that making your animal available is keeping them from taking the animal they are pleased with.

It’s the same as the economic theory of guns and butter. You can have more of both……. You can only have more of one, at the expense of the other.

There are losers and winners. If your wondering about who the losers are in the current system ask elkassassin. He has a special way to explain it.

Good point. I won’t argue against that. There is no answer that will please all.

elknr · Jan 11, 2023

I like the easier to draw tags,But I’m afraid we’re going to have to keep lowering age objectives to keep the draw odds close. Meaning prime units in 10-20 years will mean branch antlered bulls would be what people are killing. We need to stop the age somewhere respectable. Odds are just going to get worse. We’re gonna have to live with that.

littlebighorn · Jan 11, 2023

I was one of those who originally felt that if I accumulated enough points in Utah, I would have a good shot at a 370+ bull when I got a tag.
After 26 years of applying, I finally drew the unit of my choice last year. Certainly drought plays into antler size, but by the time I drew I was more interested in the rut experience than the inches of antler.
We hunted 6 days and I had an incredible fun adventure with a half dozen "in your face" bull encounters. The rut was prime and I'm sure I looked over more than 100 bulls. We had an amazing time, yet we didn't see anything over 350 inches.
I ended up taking a beautiful bull with a big back end, but inch wise, it doesn't even sniff my original "trophy" expectation.
I was maybe a little disappointed at not at least seeing something bigger, but overall I had a blast and THE HUNT was everything I anticipated it would be.
As has been stated, social media has made numbers more important than experience...which is sad. I'm fine with how mine turned out.

slamdunk · Jan 11, 2023

elknr said:
I like the easier to draw tags,But I’m afraid we’re going to have to keep lowering age objectives to keep the draw odds close. Meaning prime units in 10-20 years will mean branch antlered bulls would be what people are killing. We need to stop the age somewhere respectable. Odds are just going to get worse. We’re gonna have to live with that.

Yes, we've got to find a balance or we'll be a branch antlered bull state like Colorado.
I think we'll find that sweet spot.

middlefork · Jan 11, 2023

From the December RAC pamphlet.....
"Hunter demand and interest for limited entry permits has always been high and continues to increase. In 2022, 75,925 hunters applied for 3,117 limited entry permits, resulting in 1:19.8 draw odds for residents and 1:70.5 for nonresidents. Demand and applications have increased disproportionately to increases in limited entry permits, and as such, draw odds have become increasingly tough."

It is going to disappoint some people one way or another.

BradA · Jan 11, 2023

elkhunterUT said:
no - we won't see proposals on new tag #'s until March for RAC meetings.

Explains why I couldn’t find it.

Vitalwave · Jan 11, 2023

slamdunk said:
Yes, we've got to find a balance or we'll be a branch antlered bull state like Colorado.
I think we'll find that sweet spot.

Agree 100%. I like that western states offers a diversity of elk hunting options and that is why I have been able to tolerate Utah draw odds. Its getting expensive to hunt out of state but at least its an option if you save up you can have both opportunity and quality depending what you are willing to wait for.

I hope Utah finds the balance. I am fine waiting my turn if the juice is worth the squeeze. Like @elknr said, If it takes 20+ years to chase rag horns that is going to be a huge bummer.

scopenstalk · Jan 12, 2023

I think at the end of the day, I’d rather have the chance than none at all. Dying before drawing your tag significantly lowers your odds of harvesting a trophy bull.

twopointdn · Jan 12, 2023

I would agree that bull age base management is backfiring if we have units with very high bull to cow ratios and if we are killing cows to stay within objective for the unit. Sounds like it is time to make the changes needed that will get the herds back in balance and health again.