Pyrenees and other livestock guard dogs in WY

R

remmy6.5

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So, what do you all think of those livestock guard dogs running around the Wyoming BLM with the sheep herds? Ever have a face-off with them? Mean, vicious SOB's. Pyrenees, Kangals and Antolians. Rawlins to Rock Springs, Pinedale, etc. Guard dog usage is current and rising

Imagine taking your 10 year old son and his lab pup on a bird hunt on public land. You've walked for about 2 miles and crest over a hill and then walk smack right into a herd of sheep (with no sheep herder in sight) and of 5 of those huge dogs. You had no idea, no warning, there was no signage. Bang, you've got yourself a situation.

They surround you and your son, circling, growling, charging, nipping. One grabs the lab pup by the throat and the others grab other end, ripping the the dog apart. What do you do?

You shoot and either would or kill. What's your liability?

Are you protected by any Wyoming state statute? These guard dogs are real and there are real encounters out there. Mountain bikers, rock hounds, bird watchers, hikers. It's just not a hunter issue, it's a public land user issue

Thoughts? Experiences?
 
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I've worked in the woods in ID and WY for the last 20 years and have been around the dogs you're complaining about.

Sure, they'll run up and see what you are, bark at times, but never seen one be aggressive toward a person once they know what you are.

The worse I've had to do is yell at them and they calmed right down.

I'm 1000% more concerned about being caught in a lightning storm than being bitten by a guard dog...
 
Every year the sheriffs office in Sweetwater county has to put out a message to the public to stop picking the guard dogs in your car and taking them to animal control. Happens every year. So vicious they will curl up in the backseat of a Corolla while you drive them to town.
 
I've had them be aggressive toward me before...more than just barking...nipping at me. Lucky for them I had a bow in my hands and not a rifle or I'd have scared them worse than they scared me!
No doubt they could judge that I'm not as Badazz as SS! ;)

Standing in the open in a lightening storm is also pretty unnerving!
 
I have experienced both ends of the spectrum, but most are fairly mellow once you start talking to them. I only had one bad experience with 4 of them in Region G one year, and they were very aggressive and growling. They backed me right out of the area!!!
 
Saw a lady trying to load one up in her Subaru on top of 14 mile hill north of Rock Springs. Dog didn’t seem too interested.
 
Maybe you should have the dog trained before letting it off leash. Of that dog will heal, there is no reason that those dogs would chew your dog up. It just wouldn’t happen if you can control your dog!
 
I almost had to shoot one on the Wasatch unit in Utah several years ago. He came out of no where and followed me all the way to my truck showing teeth and snarling the entire way as I walked backyards with my pistol in his face. I fired one round in the air and he didn’t even flinch.
 
They should all be shot along with the sheep they're protecting. There's another thread on this board right now about the difficulty of drawing sheep tags. This is a big reason why. The state of Idaho, legislatively, not thru the F&G, has specifically prevented management of wild sheep south of I-84 to benefit these stupid dogs and their charge. To the detriment of wild sheep and sheep hunters. North of I-84 wild sheep get put down yearly for interacting with domestic sheep. If not for these stupid policies we'd have dozens, if not hundreds, more permits annually. If you're a hunter any experience with these dogs or their sheep is a bad experience.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
They should all be shot along with the sheep they're protecting. There's another thread on this board right now about the difficulty of drawing sheep tags. This is a big reason why. The state of Idaho, legislatively, not thru the F&G, has specifically prevented management of wild sheep south of I-84 to benefit these stupid dogs and their charge. To the detriment of wild sheep and sheep hunters. North of I-84 wild sheep get put down yearly for interacting with domestic sheep. If not for these stupid policies we'd have dozens, if not hundreds, more permits annually. If you're a hunter any experience with these dogs or their sheep is a bad experience.
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Interesting comment, but true in the aspect of management of bighorns in most cases. Wyoming has a bighorn sheep area with a thriving herd that on a yearly basis provides one or more B&C rams(ask wytex) to hunters. This herd somehow co-exists with domestic sheep. We don't hear anything about why this is, but it is.
 
jm77 said:
Interesting comment, but true in the aspect of management of bighorns in most cases. Wyoming has a bighorn sheep area with a thriving herd that on a yearly basis provides one or more B&C rams(ask wytex) to hunters. This herd somehow co-exists with domestic sheep. We don't hear anything about why this is, but it is.
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Respectfully, I doubt you're correct.

blog.eastmans.com

WYOMING RANGE SHEEP WARS! – What’s Your Take? - Eastmans' Official Blog | Mule Deer, Antelope, Elk Hunting and Bowhunting Magazine | Eastmans' Hunting Journals

The U.S. Forest Service is considering changing its domestic sheep grazing management plan to
blog.eastmans.com blog.eastmans.com
 
" In the year prior to the pneumonia outbreak there was no documentation of bighorn sheep from this herd being exposed to known/suspected hosts, such as domestic sheep, associated with bacterial pathogens linked to pneumonia. When and how bacterial pathogens were introduced to the bighorn sheep population is unknown, but it is likely environmental stress associated with severe winter conditions resulted in the disease outbreak and die-off event."

You need to quit googling so fast and read what you are posting.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
The same unit 19 that had a die off in 2016?
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So many sheep died that they changed the tag quotas, correct?

For decades, G&F has looked at domestic sheep as carrying the pathogens that cause pneumonia in wild sheep. Currently, they are also blaming Rocky Mountain goats for doing the same, with pack goats and llamas being next in line. You never hear that bighorns just might be the carriers themselves.

Now you started this with the outrageous comment to shoot domestic sheep herds and their guard dogs. You might just set the tone a little different the next time.
 
So far I haven't had many problems with them. I usually try to avoid them if I can. Luckily I've never had to deal with them and my dog but if they ever did come after my lab I would shoot them no doubt.
 
You kind of answered your own question:

"For decades, G&F has looked at domestic sheep as carrying the pathogens that cause pneumonia in wild sheep."

This is the accepted science in every state that has sheep. Whether it is disease or competition for forage wild sheep and domestic sheep necessarily to not mix well
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
You kind of answered your own question:

"For decades, G&F has looked at domestic sheep as carrying the pathogens that cause pneumonia in wild sheep."

This is the accepted science in every state that has sheep. Whether it is disease or competition for forage wild sheep and domestic sheep necessarily to not mix well
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This was my question: "So many sheep died that they changed the tag quotas, correct?"

So no, I didn't answer my own question.
 
jm77 said:
Interesting comment, but true in the aspect of management of bighorns in most cases. Wyoming has a bighorn sheep area with a thriving herd that on a yearly basis provides one or more B&C rams(ask wytex) to hunters. This herd somehow co-exists with domestic sheep. We don't hear anything about why this is, but it is.
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I just wish there was 1 random tag available. I’ve seen some awesome rams in there.
 
wytex said:
I'm glad Buzz and JM haven't had bad experiences with them, I have.
Be ready to protect yourself but know most don't see people as a threat. Shooting would be a last resort
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If you're one to recreate out there in the SW part of the State, be it biking, looking for arrowheads, etc., or hunting, it's only a matter of time before you have a conflict with these dogs. It might not be pleasant and will put you in a corner. On the other hand, if you spend a majority of your time on the interwebs, such as www captains jm77 and Buzz, who obviously shelter under a roof and chronically monitor their devices a majority of their time vs actually recreating outside.....well, it's pretty easy for these types to not put themselves in a position of conflict and to pooh pooh subjects such as this, all the way patting themselves on the back, liking each others posted drivel and in their minds, reign as kings of the internet. Hopefully, they and well as the rest of us dont' get put in a bad spot by a pack of sheep guard dogs. Not all of them are cuddly
 
remmy6.5 said:
If you're one to recreate out there in the SW part of the State, be it biking, looking for arrowheads, etc., or hunting, it's only a matter of time before you have a conflict with these dogs. It might not be pleasant and will put you in a corner. On the other hand, if you spend a majority of your time on the interwebs, such as www captains jm77 and Buzz, who obviously shelter under a roof and chronically monitor their devices a majority of their time vs actually recreating outside.....well, it's pretty easy for these types to not put themselves in a position of conflict and to pooh pooh subjects such as this, all the way patting themselves on the back, liking each others posted drivel and in their minds, reign as kings of the internet. Hopefully, they and well as the rest of us dont' get put in a bad spot by a pack of sheep guard dogs. Not all of them are cuddly
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Need a tissue, Sally?

I spend "only" about 100 days a year in the field at work, probably another 60+ hunting/fishing, etc.

Last time I ran into these vicious man-killers was last year helping some friends on a late cow hunt. I gave the man-killing dog half of my sandwich because he was so vicious...

Of all the stupid things to worry about...good grief I bet you really fear a day at the local shopping mall.
 
remmy6.5 said:
If you're one to recreate out there in the SW part of the State, be it biking, looking for arrowheads, etc., or hunting, it's only a matter of time before you have a conflict with these dogs. It might not be pleasant and will put you in a corner. On the other hand, if you spend a majority of your time on the interwebs, such as www captains jm77 and Buzz, who obviously shelter under a roof and chronically monitor their devices a majority of their time vs actually recreating outside.....well, it's pretty easy for these types to not put themselves in a position of conflict and to pooh pooh subjects such as this, all the way patting themselves on the back, liking each others posted drivel and in their minds, reign as kings of the internet. Hopefully, they and well as the rest of us dont' get put in a bad spot by a pack of sheep guard dogs. Not all of them are cuddly
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I spent over 20 years in that country and never had a problem. And I promise you I spent more time out there than you have your whole life.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
They should all be shot along with the sheep they're protecting. There's another thread on this board right now about the difficulty of drawing sheep tags. This is a big reason why. The state of Idaho, legislatively, not thru the F&G, has specifically prevented management of wild sheep south of I-84 to benefit these stupid dogs and their charge. To the detriment of wild sheep and sheep hunters. North of I-84 wild sheep get put down yearly for interacting with domestic sheep. If not for these stupid policies we'd have dozens, if not hundreds, more permits annually. If you're a hunter any experience with these dogs or their sheep is a bad experience.
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This is a stupid and ignorant argument. Yes on face value the key to better opportunity is more sheep. But to scape goat the sheep herders is short sighted and wrong.

Yes there are some that are crazy situations where the herders/ranchers are complete jack wagons... Like the guy by Thermop. But to make a statement like all sheep dogs, all sheep and sheep herder need shot is simply wrong, immature and very short sighted.

Imagine what happens to predator control when we get rid of sheep and herders? Furthermore all out public lands should always be managed for multiuse. That includes ranching. When we start to pick winner and loser on public land we all will end up on the short end of the stick.
 
Buzz, I'm more than happy to concede that you're the www master. Pretty tough to wrestle on the internet with someone who's on it a lot and good at it. Also, apologies for calling out your obvious bromance -I'm sure he'll be popping in soon to rescue your azz and like your comment- doing the math with just your posts here - ignoring the other sites you creep on, which would total thousands and thousands more posts- you've got around 99.99998% more time spent here vs myself. you win, tiger man
 
I backpacked in next to a sheep herd one night before dark, Those dogs barked in my direction for hours before I got up and moved. :ROFLMAO:
 
images.jpg

Make sure you pack your dog spray when hunting!:ROFLMAO:
 
I’ve had enough run-ins with these guard dogs that I’ll challenge those who say they’re not a menace ….at times.
Minding my own business, eating a sandwich, dogs attacked and about pulled me off my parked ATV, bite marks on the fender and my boots and pant cuffs.
Luckily I dropped the sandwich and hit the trail with them in hot pursuit. Ya, really friendly.
I thanked the Lord it wasn’t one of my daughters.
Another time in Idaho: driving to camp for a bit of lunch after a morning of archery hunting. Had 2 dogs attack, no sh!t. Had my arm out the window and it about took it off. The other one attacked the driver’s side front tire and got accidentally rolled over. Ya, really nice puppies and I’m sure they just came to play.

Zeke
 
elks96 said:
This is a stupid and ignorant argument. Yes on face value the key to better opportunity is more sheep. But to scape goat the sheep herders is short sighted and wrong.

Yes there are some that are crazy situations where the herders/ranchers are complete jack wagons... Like the guy by Thermop. But to make a statement like all sheep dogs, all sheep and sheep herder need shot is simply wrong, immature and very short sighted.

Imagine what happens to predator control when we get rid of sheep and herders? Furthermore all out public lands should always be managed for multiuse. That includes ranching. When we start to pick winner and loser on public land we all will end up on the short end of the stick.
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The loser is the public. Do you think we'd run out of wool to buy if the western states stopped public land sheep grazing? Buy out the leases and send them on their way. At 300k a sheep it wouldn't take long to make it profitable for the ranchers to leave then everyone wins. This of course is illegal in Idaho, I don't know about Wyoming.
 
Wtf are you guys doing hanging around them? In all my travels out there I never decided let’s hang around these livestock dogs and eat Cheetos.

If you’re sitting on an atv and you get bit by a dog thats really sad. I mean you’re on an atv, drive off. How do you go home and face your wife after that? Hey honey I was driving in my truck and a dog bit my arm? I assume she left you. Cuz you’re not a man, you’re some sheep dawgs *****.

These stories have to be made up. Please for the love of god tell me these are made up…
 
Well SS, you’re a d!ck, that’s for sure.
If a dog was actually a good judge of character, you’d have been ripped to shreds and whiz on by now. Go back to your bears, dude.
Minding my own business on public land isn’t inviting them to sprint out of the trees and take a bite. Grow up a little.
Zeke
 
Me and a buddy called in a pair of Pyrenees dogs a couple years ago while archery elk hunting. One of them got smoked during the third charge at us. We weren’t within 2 miles of a sheep herd, I truly believe those dogs where just out hunting and thought they had an easy meal. The survivor ( pink collar) got his picture taken on my trail cam the about 4 miles away the next day.

I will shoot sooner on the next aggressive encounter.
 
Zeke said:
Well SS, you’re a d!ck, that’s for sure.
If a dog was actually a good judge of character, you’d have been ripped to shreds and whiz on by now. Go back to your bears, dude.
Minding my own business on public land isn’t inviting them to sprint out of the trees and take a bite. Grow up a little.
Zeke
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Dogs are a good judge of character. Never had an issue with a dog.

Was the atv on an established road? Sounds like perhaps you were ripping across the brush and the dogs ended it. Two sides to every story.
 
On the main road little dude. Public land, lunch time. Sorry to disappoint you but no ripping up the land here. No two sides to this story either.

Oh course I dropped my sandwich, started the quad a hauled azz and went home to mommy. Haha

You really are a piece of work.

I just wanted to chime in and relate 2 experiences that I’ve had with them. Many time I’ve just walked by without issues but maybe they don’t like old quads or classic Blazers??‍♂️
 
Zeke said:
I’ve had enough run-ins with these guard dogs that I’ll challenge those who say they’re not a menace ….at times.
Minding my own business, eating a sandwich, dogs attacked and about pulled me off my parked ATV, bite marks on the fender and my boots and pant cuffs.
Luckily I dropped the sandwich and hit the trail with them in hot pursuit. Ya, really friendly.
I thanked the Lord it wasn’t one of my daughters.
Another time in Idaho: driving to camp for a bit of lunch after a morning of archery hunting. Had 2 dogs attack, no sh!t. Had my arm out the window and it about took it off. The other one attacked the driver’s side front tire and got accidentally rolled over. Ya, really nice puppies and I’m sure they just came to play.

Zeke
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jm77 said:
Top five hunting injuries:
5) mauled by grizzly bear
4) sprained ankle
3) campfire burn
2) blisters from new boots
1) livestock guard dog bite
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See #1
 
These dogs kill as many deer as lions and coyotes every year I see them pull down deer it’s amazing how these big dogs can go. The ones I see chasing deer usually have accidents of some kind. I have called them in coyote hunting in February they both got sick
Herders would rather they eat deer than feed them
 
remmy6.5 said:
1) douchebags who live on the internet. THERE fixed it for you. I know, you can do this all night but, isn't this about the time for your evening sexting with Buzz?
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Guys like you that obsess with other guys, are merely projecting their true feelings.

Newbie, if your only contribution here is going to be about breaking the law or shooting stock dogs, please move on.
 
They kill more coyotes in one year than most hunters do in a lifetime. You just need to learn how to coexist, not that hard. Avoidance is probably the best strategy…..https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/07/12/livestock-guardian-dogs-have-a-job-to-do-please-leave-them-in-the-field/
 
highfastflyer said:
They kill more coyotes in one year than most hunters do in a lifetime. You just need to learn how to coexist, not that hard. Avoidance is probably the best strategy…..https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/07/12/livestock-guardian-dogs-have-a-job-to-do-please-leave-them-in-the-field/
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***** that! I don’t need to ***** foot around the hills trying to avoid a sheep dog. Aggressive encounter will end in a shooting every time with me. I won’t risk it with my kids around.
 
Deepcolor said:
***** that! I don’t need to ***** foot around the hills trying to avoid a sheep dog. Aggressive encounter will end in a shooting every time with me. I won’t risk it with my kids around.
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Just remember in Wyoming if you kill another man‘s dog its like killing his child and those livestock producers depend on those dogs 100%. Some of those sheep herders will bury you where they’ll never find you. Besides, the penalty for extreme animal cruelty is quite severe if they even allow it get to that point…….Its not that hard, just educate yourself a bit and Avoidance is always the best strategy………
 
Dangbig said:
These dogs kill as many deer as lions and coyotes every year I see them pull down deer it’s amazing how these big dogs can go. The ones I see chasing deer usually have accidents of some kind. I have called them in coyote hunting in February they both got sick
Herders would rather they eat deer than feed them
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BS
 
Zeke said:
On the main road little dude. Public land, lunch time. Sorry to disappoint you but no ripping up the land here. No two sides to this story either.

Oh course I dropped my sandwich, started the quad a hauled azz and went home to mommy. Haha

You really are a piece of work.

I just wanted to chime in and relate 2 experiences that I’ve had with them. Many time I’ve just walked by without issues but maybe they don’t like old quads or classic Blazers??‍♂️
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I need closure. What type of sandwich?
 
There would be 5 very dead dogs and i wont lose sleep over it.
I', ve shot several dogs that strayed onto our property just because they were on our property
They get aggressive its an instant death sentence, i don't give a damn
Whos dog it is, ive shot 3 if my own for wandering off our property. i have absalutely no remorse or guilt
For killing any animal wild or domestic
 
Ultimag said:
There would be 5 very dead dogs and i wont lose sleep over it.
I', ve shot several dogs that strayed onto our property just because they were on our property
They get aggressive its an instant death sentence, i don't give a damn
Whos dog it is, ive shot 3 if my own for wandering off our property. i have absalutely no remorse or guilt
For killing any animal wild or domestic
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?
 
Got an invite to go coyote calling today, so I'd like to ask jm77 to monitor the internet while I'm gone. jm77 is going to have his eyeballs glued to a device, anyway, so might as well make his time useful. I'm sure his boyfriend Buzz will assist. The www depends on you two!
 
remmy6.5 said:
Got an invite to go coyote calling today, so I'd like to ask jm77 to monitor the internet while I'm gone. jm77 is going to have his eyeballs glued to a device, anyway, so might as well make his time useful. I'm sure his boyfriend Buzz will assist. The www depends on you two!
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It's ok if you have a love infatuation with another man, but could you please keep it to yourself. I for one, would not like to read about it on every other post in the Wyoming forum.
 
Dam..wonder when
Zeke said:
I’ve had enough run-ins with these guard dogs that I’ll challenge those who say they’re not a menace ….at times.
Minding my own business, eating a sandwich, dogs attacked and about pulled me off my parked ATV, bite marks on the fender and my boots and pant cuffs.
Luckily I dropped the sandwich and hit the trail with them in hot pursuit. Ya, really friendly.
I thanked the Lord it wasn’t one of my daughters.
Another time in Idaho: driving to camp for a bit of lunch after a morning of archery hunting. Had 2 dogs attack, no sh!t. Had my arm out the window and it about took it off. The other one attacked the driver’s side front tire and got accidentally rolled over. Ya, really nice puppies and I’m sure they just came to play.

Zeke
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Lmao! Oh my God! I laughed so hard I almost pissed myself.
 
jm77 said:
Interesting comment, but true in the aspect of management of bighorns in most cases. Wyoming has a bighorn sheep area with a thriving herd that on a yearly basis provides one or more B&C rams(ask wytex) to hunters. This herd somehow co-exists with domestic sheep. We don't hear anything about why this is, but it is.
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So JM where are the domestic sheep in19 ? I did not see any in any part of the area where we hunted, both sides of highway 34 and some private / public access areas. Are they more north of Laramie Peak or Wheatland side ?
I think I misunderstood your post. You are saying domestic sheep are not the cause of the disease or they were ?


Idahomuley those sheep are doing great, no die off in 2016 just a few sick sheep, same last year. Collaring will take place in the next few weeks to help monitor that herd. Quotas remain the same due to access and frankly we do not want Gov. tags used in 19.
And , yes some big rams in there, way bigger than mine.
Thank you Montana for that blood line !


It's pretty safe to say some sheep dogs are fine and some are not, just be cautious and if they attack you you can defend yourself . Give them a wide berth if you are not comfortable, provided you can that is.
 
wytex said:
So JM where are the domestic sheep in19 ? I did not see any in any part of the area where we hunted, both sides of highway 34 and some private / public access areas. Are they more north of Laramie Peak or Wheatland side ?
I think I misunderstood your post. You are saying domestic sheep are not the cause of the disease or they were ?
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I'm sure you don't believe bighorns just reside around Hwy 34 in area 19. I will pm you the answer.
 
highfastflyer said:
They kill more coyotes in one year than most hunters do in a lifetime. You just need to learn how to coexist, not that hard. Avoidance is probably the best strategy…..https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/07/12/livestock-guardian-dogs-have-a-job-to-do-please-leave-them-in-the-field/
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That's bull $hit. A coyote won't go near one. That's why they are so effective. They are guard dogs. And it is true that a good one is not friendly to strangers. Leave them alone.
 
Old Cowboy said:
That's bull $hit. A coyote won't go near one. That's why they are so effective. They are guard dogs. And it is true that a good one is not friendly to strangers. Leave them alone.
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Often times it’s the combination of the dogs barking and the sheep herder being warned and informed of the presence of the coyote so a combination kill. Many of the sheep guys now use Kangals and Anatolian dogs along with the Great Pyrenees dogs as it’s a hunter/killer and protector combination.
 
oh I’m sure that they kill a fawn here and there. But not even in the top 550 issues concerning deer. And likely not in the top 1000 issues or concerns one should have going into the outdoors.
 
marley said:
I almost had to shoot one on the Wasatch unit in Utah several years ago. He came out of no where and followed me all the way to my truck showing teeth and snarling the entire way as I walked backyards with my pistol in his face. I fired one round in the air and he didn’t even flinch.
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We ran on to one like that there as well. He was a nasty SOB that deserved shooting.
 
My fam at one time ran the biggest sheep outfit in the west. Both my dad and uncle herded as kids.

So I am pro sheep. Plus there isn't a finer food in hunting camp than mutton.

But, ever notice most sheep camps don't have dog food? Kind of a simple observation as a bunch of 200lb dogs, would throw down some kibbles and bits.

So. What do you think they are eating? A faster, more nimble coyote, or a fawn or calf?

And we won't mention what the herders like to eat as well. Out of sight, out of mind.

Sheep off date is generally opening weekend of muzzy season, and generally I spend a few hours with optics watching the collies work they are awesome. But a lot of Pyrenees are not real friendly. And, like it or not, sheep men are on public ground, and I have every right to be there as well. If his dog is cool, so am I. If not, then the owner should of done better.

It's not a coincidence when you see the camps, which camps have shitty dogs. Owners treat the herders same as they do the dogs.
 
BuzzH said:
Don't disagree with anthing in your post, but mutton isn't worth feeding to a dog...and that's a fact.

Hate it, and yes I've had it enough times to know it sucks.

Makes early mallard ducks seem pretty good.
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Mutton is so bad i have never tried it.

But if you got and bighorn sheep recipes let me know
 
Had a Pyrenees that came in on my Wyoming mule deer hunt this year, made a couple calls a Peruvian sheep herder taught me.. no issue.
Shared a dinner with his dogs and mine.
 
hossblur said:
My fam at one time ran the biggest sheep outfit in the west. Both my dad and uncle herded as kids.

So I am pro sheep. Plus there isn't a finer food in hunting camp than mutton.

But, ever notice most sheep camps don't have dog food? Kind of a simple observation as a bunch of 200lb dogs, would throw down some kibbles and bits.

So. What do you think they are eating? A faster, more nimble coyote, or a fawn or calf?

And we won't mention what the herders like to eat as well. Out of sight, out of mind.

Sheep off date is generally opening weekend of muzzy season, and generally I spend a few hours with optics watching the collies work they are awesome. But a lot of Pyrenees are not real friendly. And, like it or not, sheep men are on public ground, and I have every right to be there as well. If his dog is cool, so am I. If not, then the owner should of done better.

It's not a coincidence when you see the camps, which camps have shitty dogs. Owners treat the herders same as they do the dogs.
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I'm pro sheep too, in the right place. As a good friend of mine from the south said: "You can raise sheep in Alabama, why would you want them around the wild ones." The "my grandads grandad did it so I will" is one of the big problems with not enough wild sheep in Idaho. I'm sure this attitude affects Wyoming as well.
 
jm77 said:
Guys like you that obsess with other guys, are merely projecting their true feelings.

Newbie, if your only contribution here is going to be about breaking the law or shooting stock dogs, please move on.
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What law did he break?
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
I'm pro sheep too, in the right place. As a good friend of mine from the south said: "You can raise sheep in Alabama, why would you want them around the wild ones." The "my grandads grandad did it so I will" is one of the big problems with not enough wild sheep in Idaho. I'm sure this attitude affects Wyoming as well.
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I'm guessing, because I don't know, but I'll assume there isn't a wide swath of public grazing in Alabama? That's probably why they don't raise sheep there.
 
Take away wool and sheep meat subsidies and there wouldn't be a sheep operation left. Contact your legislators.
 
Now that your done asking questions answer some, what law did he break? When did BLM become trespassing ?
 
BuzzH said:
Take away wool and sheep meat subsidies and there wouldn't be a sheep operation left. Contact your legislators.
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Take away subsidies to agriculture and you have a famine.

Take away subsidies to loggers, miners, extractors, and YOU are unemployed.

Last I checked, you live in Wyoming.

How about instead of convincing legistors there are too many sheep, you get the cattlemen to acknowledge bison are wildlife.
 
hossblur said:
Take away subsidies to agriculture and you have a famine.

Take away subsidies to loggers, miners, extractors, and YOU are unemployed.

Last I checked, you live in Wyoming.

How about instead of convincing legistors there are too many sheep, you get the cattlemen to acknowledge bison are wildlife.
Click to expand...
What happened to free market capitalism? I guess socialism is more in line with your views?

Why do ranchers in states without BLM lands make it, but those paying a buck thirty five for a cow calf pair or 5 sheep for a months worth of grass can't make a go of it?

Try feeding a tank of goldfish for $1.35 a month.
 
BuzzH said:
Take away wool and sheep meat subsidies and there wouldn't be a sheep operation left. Contact your legislators.
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Letters are going out in the mail tomorrow! If just one kid gets bit from one of these monsters, that is one too many.
 
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BuzzH said:
What happened to free market capitalism? I guess socialism is more in line with your views?

Why do ranchers in states without BLM lands make it, but those paying a buck thirty five for a cow calf pair or 5 sheep for a months worth of grass can't make a go of it?

Try feeding a tank of goldfish for $1.35 a month.
Click to expand...


You live in Wyoming, correct. Let's see you swing a dead cat and not hit a rancher, farmer, logger, miner, oil guy.

The entirety of your states economic base IS SUBSIDIZED INDUSTRY.

Is there no mirror in your house. Can you point to the area of the FS that is free market, or capitalist?

The Forest Service creation was to STOP free market capitalists. Did they not teach that on orientation day?

How do ranchers elsewhere make it?

Well, 60-70% of the land mass in their states aren't public land. Texas at 98% private has a ton more acreage for grazing. But if you don't think cattle in Texas arent subsidized, your stupid.

Having said that. Of all people, a lifelong government employee, and union rep, should have enough self awareness to not think it's his place to discuss capitalism or free markets. Leave those discussions for those, who actually exist in them.
 
Savage110 said:
Letters are going out in the mail tomorrow! I just one kid gets bit from one of these monsters, that is one too many.
Click to expand...

Be careful what you wish for.

Livestock producers lose animals to pet dogs as well

No really needing a leash law out in the forest.

Not sure about you, but I see a lot of dogs running around that belong to folks camping. Most are cool, some ain't.

I'm fine with shooting mean herd dogs. As long as I can smack that nipping like yappy dog that wanders into camp as well
 
The FS, BLM, NPS, etc. are PUBLIC land management agencies. Meaning the PUBLIC has determined that they want their land managed. Management costs money and the taxpayers are willing to pay for that management in the form of fractions of one percent of the federal budget.

Its tough to put a price tag on clean air, clean water, places to recreate, etc. but Americans, by and large, consider what they pay worthwhile for the management of their public lands. I don't believe they ever felt the "highest and best" use of those lands was to keep grazing fees at the same rates they have been since the 1970's. Or that they should have their bighorn sheep impacted by domestics keeping bighorns at 50,000 total animals from a high of perhaps 2 million prior to manifest destiny.

Do you not see the contradiction in the value society places on a bighorn sheep (see recent license sales of 360k and 340K for Oregon and Montana wild sheep licenses), versus allowing an animal that couldn't exist without significant aid/welfare from the taxpayer?

Its always been interesting to me how worked up you get about subsidies and how you seem to champion some, while vilifying others. How do you determine what kind of subsidies are suitable and those you don't? How does corporate welfare enter into your hierarchy of good and proper socialism?

Is it the long line of acceptable socialism and welfare in your family history that makes it acceptable?

Just curious.
'
Oh, and being from Utah, you don't exist in a free market.
 
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BuzzH said:
The FS, BLM, NPS, etc. are PUBLIC land management agencies. Meaning the PUBLIC has determined that they want their land managed. Management costs money and the taxpayers are willing to pay for that management in the form of fractions of one percent of the federal budget.

Its tough to put a price tag on clean air, clean water, places to recreate, etc. but Americans, by and large, consider what they pay worthwhile for the management of their public lands.

Its always been interesting to me how worked up you get about subsidies and how you seem to champion some, while vilifying others. How do you determine what kind of subsidies are suitable and those you don't? How does corporate welfare enter into your hierarchy of good and proper socialism?

Is it the long line of acceptable socialism and welfare in your family history that makes it acceptable?

Just curious.
Click to expand...


To start with. I like to eat. So there's that.

Public land was a concept (socialism) brought about by TR, or at least he had the political power behind it

Public land, IS NOT free market capitalist. In fact it's 180degree opposite. Therefore, the agencies that run it, are by definition, NOT FREE MARKET, NOR CAPITALIST.

The early FS job, was first, forest fire suppression. Second, stopping freearket capitalists from obtaining all the resources and land in the newly opened west.

Had there been free, open capitalism, all those places you hunt, and work in, would have been owned by a Rockefeller.

What subsidies are acceptable? Those that stop me from being dependent on foreign actors.

Food, energy, to name 2.

So yup, subsidies to ranchers are acceptable. As are they to oil companies.

But hey. I'll get you a sgn made you can put on your yard calling for an end to all subsidies for ranchers, farmers, oil, mining, logging. You'll be even more popular.
 
hossblur said:
I'm guessing, because I don't know, but I'll assume there isn't a wide swath of public grazing in Alabama? That's probably why they don't raise sheep there.
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They do raise sheep in Alabama. And the land is not public, probably because it's productive. The reason most BLM land is BLM land is because it was either not claimed under the homestead act or was given/donated back. It's worthless to a rancher, ie thats why they essentially give away the grazing leases. But it's not worthless to hunters and wildlife, and it's time to exert our influence. BTW my buddy raises cattle not sheep in Alabama, he runs 200 head on 300 acres and has to mow grass, not feed hay. That's why theres no BLM land in Alabama. Western range lands aren't productive for grazing.
 
Our
idahomuleyhunter said:
They do raise sheep in Alabama. And the land is not public, probably because it's productive. The reason most BLM land is BLM land is because it was either not claimed under the homestead act or was given/donated back. It's worthless to a rancher, ie thats why they essentially give away the grazing leases. But it's not worthless to hunters and wildlife, and it's time to exert our influence. BTW my buddy raises cattle not sheep in Alabama, he runs 200 head on 300 acres and has to mow grass, not feed hay. That's why theres no BLM land in Alabama. Western range lands aren't productive for grazing.
Click to expand...


Our influence?

90k deer hunters in all of Utah. A big portion hunt private.

There's more influence at a BYU game on Saturday.

Look around. Your politicians and mine, are pretty pro selling it off to the highest bidder.

This is what happens when we keep cutting hunters, and, SCREW NR dudes. Those dudes in Alabama getting bent over to to hunt in the west, ain't gonna care if they pay IGF, OR UDWR, or an outfitter.

In theory I agree with you. In reality, ain't never gonna happen
 
to administer the $1.35 AU grazing fee, I believe it costs the BLM something like $10+ per AU. On top of that, if you've been out and about in the BLM from Riverton to Lander then down to Farson, you'll see that much of the range has been nubbed down to bare dirt. So much for the 40% forage that is supposed to be left behind.

Not only does the welfare rancher get to run wild, obviously the don't need to follow the grazing rules. 0% forage does nothing for wildlife.

Back to the Sheep Herd Guard Dogs. Check out (m) below...you, your hunting dog, your kid, etc., get shredded by one of those things, well, you're on your own, buddy. At least in Wyoming

Wyoming Statutes Title 11. Agriculture, Livestock and Other Animals § 11-31-301. Public nuisance;  notice;  penalties;  rules and regulations;  animal control districts and officers​

(e) Any animal attacking any person in a vicious manner or that bites any person may be impounded by the county sheriff or animal control officer and held in quarantine for at least ten (10) days or as long as necessary as determined by the Wyoming state health officer after the attack to determine whether the animal has any disease which may be communicated to humans.  Home quarantine may be allowed as determined by the animal control officer or the county sheriff if the animal's owner or custodian presents a valid rabies vaccination certificate showing the animal has been vaccinated against rabies by a licensed veterinarian.  The costs of impoundment, quarantine and testing shall be paid by the owner or custodian of the animal.  Any animal which attacks any person in a vicious manner may be destroyed or the owner or custodian of the animal may be fined not more than two hundred dollars ($200.00), or both.  Proof of the fact that the animal has bitten or attacked any person at any place where a person is legally entitled to be is evidence that the animal is vicious within the meaning of this section.  A copy of any animal control officer report regarding the animal bite shall be submitted to the state health officer.

(m) Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section regarding impounding an animal to determine disease status, nothing in this section shall apply to any livestock guarding animal which is actively engaged in protecting livestock.  Except in the case of gross or willful negligence, no liability shall accrue to the owner, or his agent, of any livestock guarding animal for any injury to any person or animal received from any livestock guarding animal which was actively engaged in protecting livestock.
 
hossblur said:
Our


Our influence?

90k deer hunters in all of Utah. A big portion hunt private.

There's more influence at a BYU game on Saturday.

Look around. Your politicians and mine, are pretty pro selling it off to the highest bidder.

This is what happens when we keep cutting hunters, and, SCREW NR dudes. Those dudes in Alabama getting bent over to to hunt in the west, ain't gonna care if they pay IGF, OR UDWR, or an outfitter.

In theory I agree with you. In reality, ain't never gonna happen
Click to expand...
Good. I'll bet between the money from Utah tags sold at sheep show and the western hunting expo this year you could buy out every sheep grazing lease in the state. And every state. But again it's illegal where I live. So saying a rancher is the highest bidder seems like bs to me.
 

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