Paunsagaunt issue

fishnut

fishnut

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I’ve spent the last couple of days on the winter range around Kanab. It has concerned me for years how many mature 2xwatevers I see that are rutting hard. Each year it gets worse and worse in my mind. The management tag holders all want a 3x4 and won’t shoot them and certainly the regular tag holders won’t. I wish they would do a youth hunt to target the big 2’s. Thoughts?

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But Can The Unit Stand a 2 Point/PISSCUTTER Hunt?

You're Puttin Ideas in to the DWR's Heads We Don't Need!

How Many 4-1/2+ Year Old Bucks That Had Good Genes Did You See Rutting during The Time You've Spent Looking recently?

I Can't Imagine Adding Any More Hunts on Top of What's Already Going Down!

It Ain't Far Off & The Bucks in Your Pics will Be The Big Ones!
 
Bigwiffy said:
Slam won't believe me, but the top end on the Pauns has peaked. Next to get hammered is Oak Creek.
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There are "top end" bucks on the Paunsaugunt that people don't even see. It ain't like the Henry's where they are exposed on a mountain side in plain sight.
Yes absolutely there has been a lot of cream skimmed off, but the Paunsaugunt will ALWAYS continue to produce exceptional bucks unless a disease wipes the herd out or something else catastrophic happens.
Size seemed down this year because chum piles being eliminated makes it harder for the outfitters to harvest, but they are still there.

I do agree Oakcreek will be "average" in the near future.
 
slamdunk said:
There are "top end" bucks on the Paunsaugunt that people don't even see. It ain't like the Henry's where they are exposed on a mountain side in plain sight.
Yes absolutely there has been a lot of cream skimmed off, but the Paunsaugunt will ALWAYS continue to produce exceptional bucks unless a disease wipes the herd out or something else catastrophic happens.
Size seemed down this year because chum piles being eliminated makes it harder for the outfitters to harvest, but they are still there.

I do agree Oakcreek will be "average" in the near future.
Click to expand...


Oh come on, we know it wasn't apples, it was drought. Those deer are used to lush green, almost subtropical environment. They don't know how to survive and thrive with dryness?
 
Paunsaugunt only of course!
It's undoubtedly the healthiest deer herd in the state, if not the entire west.
There are far too many bucks that are in a natural "slot limit" that will never be harvested.

But then again......if it ain't broke, don't fix it ?‍♂️
 
The DWR claims every year that the "Management" hunt is not intended for obtaining Trophy Caliber Bucks. They claim its to keep buck numbers down. You will hear this every November at the RAC Meetings...
 
Muleman1 said:
yeah that’s what we need even more deer hunts we already hunt them 3/4 or the year ?
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If you read above I’m not advocating for more hunts or more tags. Just use some of the already allotted management tags for a youth 2 point management tag during the same time. No extra hunts and no more dead deer just focus some of the management tags on the mature 2 points.
 
Does anyone realistically think they couldn’t add 5 additional management tags for this stated purpose? If anyone thinks 5 extra tags on bucks people aren’t going to kill anyway will do anything to the Pauns, you don’t know the Pauns.

I’m not saying we need to do this, but doing it would cause zero issue at all.
 
Vanilla said:
Does anyone realistically think they couldn’t add 5 additional management tags for this stated purpose? If anyone thinks 5 extra tags on bucks people aren’t going to kill anyway will do anything to the Pauns, you don’t know the Pauns.

I’m not saying we need to do this, but doing it would cause zero issue at all.
Click to expand...

100% spot on Niller!

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with any other unit in the state, period!

I can sit on any of the dozens of guzzlers I have marked on my onX and watch non stop deer come and go 24/7.

No one wants these "slot limit" inferior bucks, so therefore they do absolutely nothing but consume precious feed and water.
Let some "youth" cull them during the management hunt and have the satisfaction of knowing they are helping keep a thriving herd healthy without adding another hunt.
 
it’s always good to get advice from guys who have actually gone there and seen it first hand versus the internet jockeys who always use “ what they read on the internet” as their judge.
 
Bigwiffy said:
Slam won't believe me, but the top end on the Pauns has peaked. Next to get hammered is Oak Creek.
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lots of big two points are here as well. There are even some antlerless bucks. My wife shot one with a muzzleloader years ago on an antlerless hunt.
 
So spikes and 3 points are inferior animal's and now the big 2 Points? It's amazing that people really believe they could kill 2 points and make a difference out there. Now if you could document antler size some how (collar?) and he has the same big 2 point frame the next year then maybe? I don't think your making that big of a difference though. Half the genetics come from the doe right?????
 
ELKOHOLIC said:
So spikes and 3 points are inferior animal's and now the big 2 Points? It's amazing that people really believe they could kill 2 points and make a difference out there. Now if you could document antler size some how (collar?) and he has the same big 2 point frame the next year then maybe? I don't think your making that big of a difference though. Half the genetics come from the doe right?????
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Unless I misunderstood the topic of killing these inferior bucks, my opinion is that it's not about an attempt to alter genetics, it's about culling out bucks that just consume feed and water without actually benefitting the herd.
 
I also spent the entire muzzy season on the Pauns for my hunt, and there are indeed a lot of 2-points. I don't think it's a problem with genetics tho. That is not so much a problem, as it is an indication of the number of two year old deer that are there and easily visible. Given a couple more years of age, and I think a lot of them would mature into nice 3 and 4 points, get smarter and more elusive, and harder to find. .... I only saw one 4+ year old deer with 2 points, and he was a tank in body and outside his ears!!!

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Blank said:
I also spent the entire muzzy season on the Pauns for my hunt, and there are indeed a lot of 2-points. I don't think it's a problem with genetics tho. That is not so much a problem, as it is an indication of the number of two year old deer that are there and easily visible. Given a couple more years of age, and I think a lot of them would mature into nice 3 and 4 points, get smarter and more elusive, and harder to find. .... I only saw one 4+ year old deer with 2 points, and he was a tank in body and outside his ears!!!

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Those are all young bucks in your pictures, I agree.
 
Blank said:
I also spent the entire muzzy season on the Pauns for my hunt, and there are indeed a lot of 2-points. I don't think it's a problem with genetics tho. That is not so much a problem, as it is an indication of the number of two year old deer that are there and easily visible. Given a couple more years of age, and I think a lot of them would mature into nice 3 and 4 points, get smarter and more elusive, and harder to find. .... I only saw one 4+ year old deer with 2 points, and he was a tank in body and outside his ears!!!

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@slamdunk looks drought ridden in that country, wouldn't you say?
 
slamdunk said:
Nope, not in the least bit.
Exactly my point Wiffy.....people turning tags back screaming drought year when it wasn't.
There have been multiple fantastic bucks taken this year off the Gaunt.
Click to expand...
I've seen a lot of fantastic 170" bucks too. Glad we can agree there?
 
lmmfao.......it's called evolution......every tard in utardia with cameras, drones, spies, finder fees, dynamite....whatever...kills the biggest and best every year....
 
slamdunk said:
Did I say anything about 170" bucks Wiff?
Maybe you should venture off your couch away from your Xbox and see what's under your nose.
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That's the caliber of bucks that you've posted off the Pauns claiming to be fantastic. I'll never leave my couch or my Xbox. Those are fighting words!
 
I only personally know one person that hunted the Pauns this year, he had a rifle tag and he killed an absolutely incredible, awesome buck.

I’m sure it was the only big buck on the unit this year due to over-hunting and drought, though. I’m sure he just got lucky.
 
Vanilla said:
I only personally know one person that hunted the Pauns this year, he had a rifle tag and he killed an absolutely incredible, awesome buck.

I’m sure it was the only big buck on the unit this year due to over-hunting and drought, though. I’m sure he just got lucky.
Click to expand...
Let's see the absolutely, incredible, awesome buck. Is he over 175?
 
Bigwiffy said:
That's the caliber of bucks that you've posted off the Pauns claiming to be fantastic. I'll never leave my couch or my Xbox. Those are fighting words!
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Lmao....you're killin me dude....I haven't posted a single Paunsaugunt buck this year.
And don't threaten me......
 
slamdunk said:
I'm sure I've got pics of that buck, along with a half dozen others Niller.
Solid 160 bucks, absolutely no question about it.

Wiffy must be out of apples
Click to expand...

slamdunk said:
Lmao....you're killin me dude....I haven't posted a single Paunsaugunt buck this year.
And don't threaten me......
Click to expand...
Ya you did with some comments about them being drought year bucks. Post up one legit buck over 190. LEGIT. Not Slams tape.
 
Homer said:
lmmfao.......it's called evolution......every tard in utardia with cameras, drones, spies, finder fees, dynamite....whatever...kills the biggest and best every year....
Click to expand...
They are evolving to 2-points? In Utah, Isn’t that the same as evolving target markings?
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Ok Dari Dari Ok.. I'll bite.
Do you think the egg can differentiate between sperm from 2 year old buck and a 5 year old buck? Or is it that you're convinced that big two point is a genetic dead end? He'll never get bigger? Grow more points?
 
Nebsy said:
Ok Dari Dari Ok.. I'll bite.
Do you think the egg can differentiate between sperm from 2 year old buck and a 5 year old buck? Or is it that you're convinced that big two point is a genetic dead end? He'll never get bigger? Grow more points?
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The problem comes when that 5 year old buck is a 2 or 3 point. Ya, genetic dead end, as you put it. I think that's what everyone is talking about when they complain of 'big' 2 points, not yearlings. But even a 2 year old deer shouldn't be a 2 point.
 
Nebsy said:
Ok Dari Dari Ok.. I'll bite.
Do you think the egg can differentiate between sperm from 2 year old buck and a 5 year old buck? Or is it that you're convinced that big two point is a genetic dead end? He'll never get bigger? Grow more points?
Click to expand...

The real question we’d have to ask if this hypothetical proposal was actually being considered is this: Would the answers to those questions even matter?

What is the buck:doe ratio on the unit? Does anyone think taking out a handful more bucks that nobody is shooting anyway will harm the health of the herd?

If you do, you’re wrong.
 
So Now You Wanna Shoot the 2 Points/Possible Future Big Bucks out?

Agreed!

There are a few That need Weeded Out!

You Think Joe Blow hunter is gonna Know Or F'N Care rather it's a Future Big Buck that Needs To Live Versus a Buck that needs Culled?

GEEZUS!

WAKE THE F Up Niller!

Vanilla said:
The real question we’d have to ask if this hypothetical proposal was actually being considered is this: Would the answers to those questions even matter?

What is the buck:doe ratio on the unit? Does anyone think taking out a handful more bucks that nobody is shooting anyway will harm the health of the herd?

If you do, you’re wrong.
Click to expand...
 
I’m not arguing we should have that hunt, bessy. I’m simply stating a biological fact that this proposed hunt wouldn’t harm the health of the herd. Nobody would notice a difference if they implemented what fishnut proposed.
 
elkassassin said:
So Now You Wanna Shoot the 2 Points/Possible Future Big Bucks out?

Agreed!

There are a few That need Weeded Out!

You Think Joe Blow hunter is gonna Know Or F'N Care rather it's a Future Big Buck that Needs To Live Versus a Buck that needs Culled?

GEEZUS!

WAKE THE F Up Niller!
Click to expand...
Do you think hunters can't tell the difference between a yearling 2 point and a 5+ year old deer. I don't think very many hunters would put in for a managment 2 point LE hunt and shoot a yearling 2 point.
 
Hey notdon!

Yes!

GOOD Hunters could Tell the Difference!

For The Most Part,GOOD Hunters Wouldn't Waste Points on a Hunt Like That!

And Yes!

Lot's of TARDS in This State that Will Shoot a PISSCUTTER 2 Point!





notdonhunting said:
Do you think hunters can't tell the difference between a yearling 2 point and a 5+ year old deer. I don't think very many hunters would put in for a managment 2 point LE hunt and shoot a yearling 2 point.
Click to expand...
 
notdonhunting said:
Do you think hunters can't tell the difference between a yearling 2 point and a 5+ year old deer. I don't think very many hunters would put in for a managment 2 point LE hunt and shoot a yearling 2 point.
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Seriously?

Rifle tag on Manti for youth was 48%

I have one of those youths. Without question he'd take a chance on a 24" 2point, over a 12" 2 point
 
elkassassin said:
But Can The Unit Stand a 2 Point/PISSCUTTER Hunt?

You're Puttin Ideas in to the DWR's Heads We Don't Need!

How Many 4-1/2+ Year Old Bucks That Had Good Genes Did You See Rutting during The Time You've Spent Looking recently?

I Can't Imagine Adding Any More Hunts on Top of What's Already Going Down!

It Ain't Far Off & The Bucks in Your Pics will Be The Big Ones!
Click to expand...
In my opininion, in a lot of Areas in the west, we are already there!
Around these parts, guides, trophy hunters, etc. have killed off most of the big ones!
 
notdonhunting said:
Hoss
That is my point, hunters that would get a managment permit for the Paunsaugunt would be holding out for 20 inch+ buck and not shooting a yearling two point.
Click to expand...
I'm sure "20 inch" is just a hypothetical statement dictating a mature buck over a yearling.
It's pretty easy to tell the difference between age classes, but I'm sure there would be a few mistakes made if this hunt ever became an option.
 
This two point problem and topic has been going on for many years. Only an experienced hunter is going to know the difference between mature two point and a two year old two point. When you skim the top end off and now you want to take the bottom end off, you’ve got missing age class. Oppurtunity Hunting seems to be what the majority wants. The apples are gone, if trail cameras were outlawed for good on any public land, you would have better hunting. The other issue with the Paunsagaunt is for me and happened to a good friend a couple of years ago, you need a football team of guides and spotters to kill one of the top end Bucks.
 
hawkbill is Spot On!

We Are & Have Been Knocking the Top Tier of Bucks & Bulls Out for Many Years!

When We Are Down To Nothing But PISSCUTTER 2 Points there Will Still Be Opportunists Screaming Their DUMB F'N Heads Off Wanting To Kill All of Them As Well!

With Proper Management Utah Can & Will Grow Quality Bucks & Bulls!

The TARDville Opportunists Can't See Nor Care about The Future of Utahs Herds!

SAD!
 
hawkbill said:
This two point problem and topic has been going on for many years. Only an experienced hunter is going to know the difference between mature two point and a two year old two point. When you skim the top end off and now you want to take the bottom end off, you’ve got missing age class. Oppurtunity Hunting seems to be what the majority wants. The apples are gone, if trail cameras were outlawed for good on any public land, you would have better hunting. The other issue with the Paunsagaunt is for me and happened to a good friend a couple of years ago, you need a football team of guides and spotters to kill one of the top end Bucks.
Click to expand...
A "missing age class" should only matter if you're completely removing that gap, we're just talking about a cull hunt.
 
My experience this year on the Paunsaugunt is that there a bunch of very mature 2 points that need to be removed. These are not 2 or 3 year old deer. They are big old deer that will never be anything but a 2 point.
I talked with a guy this year that had a management tag. He saw several of these huge 2 points but was hoping to get a 27"+ 3x4 he had seen earlier. These types of guys aren't going to shoot a big 2 point. That's why we need a 2 point hunt. Same reason we had to make a 3 point hunt.
 
What if they just did the 2 point hunt for 1 or 2 years and then didnt do it again for 5+ years. It wouldnt have to be an annual thing. It could just be done every once in awhile whenever there got to be large population of mature 2 points.
 
cantkillathing said:
Take a year off of having regular trophy hunt on LE units, and do a 1 year management hunt, and make it 3 point or less on both sides. Therefore you wont give out more tags, same amount of tags just targeting different class of animals.
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3 point or less on both sides might be the answer.
 
Bessy complains that people kill the young bucks and bulls. Now he's complaining that they kill the old bucks and bulls.

One day everyone will realize he's actually a PETA operative and wants to end hunting entirely! He doesn't like hunting and doesn't like anyone else to like hunting either.

Let's be clear here, the "big 2 points" are not a problem. They don't HAVE to be killed. It's just another opportunity, that could happen, and not impact the trophy hunts out there at the same time. Seeing how many people on hunting forums that want to reduce hunting to nothing always makes me laugh.
 
Hey Niller?

After You Slay the 2 Points!

You'll Be BAWLING For a F'N Spike Hunt on LE Units!

If You Didn't Already Have Your 38"ER on the Wall You'd Change Your F'N Tune!

I Can See It Now!

Niller & Other TARDS Spend Thousands/Tens of Thousands Just To Kill That PISSCUTTER and Say:

BY GAWD I GOT MY 2 POINT,HOW BOUT YOU?

And Yes Niller!

We'll Let You Wear Your Camo Briefs While Doing So!








Vanilla said:
Bessy complains that people kill the young bucks and bulls. Now he's complaining that they kill the old bucks and bulls.

One day everyone will realize he's actually a PETA operative and wants to end hunting entirely! He doesn't like hunting and doesn't like anyone else to like hunting either.

Let's be clear here, the "big 2 points" are not a problem. They don't HAVE to be killed. It's just another opportunity, that could happen, and not impact the trophy hunts out there at the same time. Seeing how many people on hunting forums that want to reduce hunting to nothing always makes me laugh.
Click to expand...
 
Two simple questions Bessy: Who do you want to be able to hunt? And what do you want them to kill?

It doesn’t seem like you have an answer for those. Can’t kill the young ones. Can’t kill the older ones. Which can we kill? What type of hunting actually fits the sweet spot for bobcatbess?

I submit there isn’t one, and you are anti hunting. Prove me wrong.
 
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If You Kill All The PISSCUTTERS Niller?

Can You See/Harvest any Older Ones?

I Give it 2 Years Before You're BITTCHING about wanting a F'N Spike Hunt!

For Somebody That's Taken a Nice Buck You've Sure Got the F'It Attitude Now!

You're The One That Never Answers Any of the F'N Questions!
 
If You Niller Can't & Haven't Seen The Quality Of Bucks Fall Off for many Years I Suggest You Get Some New F'N Glasses!
 
Vanilla said:
Two simple questions Bessy: Who do you want to be able to hunt? And what do you want them to kill?

It doesn’t seem like you have an answer for those. Can’t kill the young ones. Can’t kill the older ones. Which can we kill? What type of hunting actually fits the sweet spot for bobcatbess?

I submit there isn’t one, and you are anti hunting. Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...
Bobcat anti hunting? He’s literally posted hundreds of his hunting photos on this platform. Few hunt as much as him.
 
elkassassin said:
If You Kill All The PISSCUTTERS Niller?

Can You See/Harvest any Older Ones?

I Give it 2 Years Before You're BITTCHING about wanting a F'N Spike Hunt!

For Somebody That's Taken a Nice Buck You've Sure Got the F'It Attitude Now!

You're The One That Never Answers Any of the F'N Questions!
Click to expand...

You didn’t answer my questions. I’ll wait…
 
You Never Ever Answer Any Of My Question Niller!

Like I've Said!

When There Ain't Nothing Left But PISSCUTTERS/Spikes You'll Still Be BAWLING To Slaughter Them & Parade Them Around Like You're Some Kind of Warrior!

Keep Slurring!
 
Vanilla said:
Pretend you’re king of the world: Who gets to hunt? What do they get to hunt?
Click to expand...


Kinda the issue in Utah isn't it. Notice the corporate class, "conservation" tag buyers, and CWMU tag buyers, ain't real concerned about any of this.

It's almost as if the kings already spoke.

Don't tell anyone, Vanilla, lots of these guys think they will be on the "good side" of cuts and shut downs
 
With the 1,000's Of Trophy Pictures that SS Has Posted there just isn't any Sense In Me Posting any PISSCUTTER Pics!



SS! said:
Bobcat anti hunting? He’s literally posted hundreds of his hunting photos on this platform. Few hunt as much as him.
Click to expand...
 
I’m curious when the last time bessy pulled the trigger on a big game animal?

I also wonder what it was?

C’mon bessy…let us in on the secret!
 

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