Dell creek elk feed ground shut down?

tailchasers said:
Do it anyway. Nullification is very real and possible.
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I don’t think they have a choice to defy the Judge now. I did read they are negotiating with a private landowner nearby to use his lands but they can’t spill the beans yet or any details because negotiations are still ongoing. The Forest Service should have started an environmental impact statement back in 2017, but it’s too late now for this years season and maybe next, not sure how quickly one can expedite one of those, especially in today’s political climate, likely might not ever happen.
 
I think feed grounds need to be phased out. But it will come with a lot of consequences. The main one being an elk season similar to how Montana does it. We’ll be hunting elk in February to appease landowners
 
Chesterwyo said:
I think feed grounds need to be phased out. But it will come with a lot of consequences. The main one being an elk season similar to how Montana does it. We’ll be hunting elk in February to appease landowners
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Mule deer herds will plummet if that happens, all those elk on the same winter ranges. Tell your grandkids how you used to hunt them in the good ole days.
 
SS! said:
Elk don’t live to be 50 bro
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A few Milfs out there approaching it.
4CC5F8B9-6DDF-43E5-8A59-F73EA42AF03B.jpeg
 
highfastflyer said:
Mule deer herds will plummet if that happens, all those elk on the same winter ranges. Tell your grandkids how you used to hunt them in the good ole days.
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This is BS, it's being perpetuated by the livestock industry and the guiding community as a scare tactic. Not a single person with a higher education in wildlife management, wildlife disease, or animal health has endorsed this theory.
Elk are already overrunning that country, and I guarantee you they are outcompeting mule deer for a lot a quality habitat right now. Summer, stop-over, and parturition range are just as important to mule deer as winter range, and they are covered up with elk. All that feedgrounds are doing is maintaining unnaturally high numbers of elk that are currently impacting mule deer. Eliminating feedgrounds and getting elk numbers back to where they should be will have nothing but a positive effect on mule deer.
But, keep feeding elk and watch what happens to CWD in the area. One thing we know for sure, is CWD kills mule deer and bucks have a higher infection rate. How many mature bucks will be running around when the CWD/feedground bomb goes off? Look at the data in areas with high CWD prevalence, they can't grow a mule deer buck past 3 years old.
 
appaloosa said:
This is BS, it's being perpetuated by the livestock industry and the guiding community as a scare tactic. Not a single person with a higher education in wildlife management, wildlife disease, or animal health has endorsed this theory.
Elk are already overrunning that country, and I guarantee you they are outcompeting mule deer for a lot a quality habitat right now. Summer, stop-over, and parturition range are just as important to mule deer as winter range, and they are covered up with elk. All that feedgrounds are doing is maintaining unnaturally high numbers of elk that are currently impacting mule deer. Eliminating feedgrounds and getting elk numbers back to where they should be will have nothing but a positive effect on mule deer.
But, keep feeding elk and watch what happens to CWD in the area. One thing we know for sure, is CWD kills mule deer and bucks have a higher infection rate. How many mature bucks will be running around when the CWD/feedground bomb goes off? Look at the data in areas with high CWD prevalence, they can't grow a mule deer buck past 3 years old.
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You are just succumbing to the anti-hunting community rhetoric and buying their BS hook line and sinker.

Are you willing to gamble with the lives of 20,000 elk using those feed grounds and the Largest Mule deer herds in Wyoming which will now be competing with 20,000 elk?

Should CWD infect northwest Wyoming it will not be disastrous. What would be disastrous would be eliminating elk feedgrounds and watching more than 60 percent of our elk starve to death.

The Laramie Elk herd teaches us the infection rate will probably be low, as now an area which has historically had the longest and highest infection rates is now only 1.2% in that herd amongst elk. Reduction or elimination of feedgrounds would result in the reduction of our elk herd many times greater than CWD ever will.

Elk feedgrounds have served northwest Wyoming well for more than a hundred years. It stabilizes our elk population, prevents tree and shrub damage, separates elk from livestock, and keeps elk off our snowplowed roads. Our homes, roads and businesses have been built on elk winter range. Our elk herd deserves reimbursement for that stolen habitat.

Even Wyoming Game and Fish understands the severity of closing down the feedlots. “
“We’ve elevated elk populations by supplemental feeding for over 100 years,” said Brandon Scurlock, Pinedale Region Wildlife Management coordinator for WGFD.
If the feedgrounds were shut down, about 15,000 elk would crowd onto existing winter ranges where pronghorn and mule deer herds congregate. The existing native winter range could not support the additional wildlife.”
 
highfastflyer said:
You are just succumbing to the anti-hunting community rhetoric and buying their BS hook line and sinker.

Are you willing to gamble with the lives of 20,000 elk using those feed grounds and the Largest Mule deer herds in Wyoming which will now be competing with 20,000 elk?

Should CWD infect northwest Wyoming it will not be disastrous. What would be disastrous would be eliminating elk feedgrounds and watching more than 60 percent of our elk starve to death.

The Laramie Elk herd teaches us the infection rate will probably be low, as now an area which has historically had the longest and highest infection rates is now only 1.2% in that herd amongst elk. Reduction or elimination of feedgrounds would result in the reduction of our elk herd many times greater than CWD ever will.

Elk feedgrounds have served northwest Wyoming well for more than a hundred years. It stabilizes our elk population, prevents tree and shrub damage, separates elk from livestock, and keeps elk off our snowplowed roads. Our homes, roads and businesses have been built on elk winter range. Our elk herd deserves reimbursement for that stolen habitat.

Even Wyoming Game and Fish understands the severity of closing down the feedlots. “
“We’ve elevated elk populations by supplemental feeding for over 100 years,” said Brandon Scurlock, Pinedale Region Wildlife Management coordinator for WGFD.
If the feedgrounds were shut down, about 15,000 elk would crowd onto existing winter ranges where pronghorn and mule deer herds congregate. The existing native winter range could not support the additional wildlife.”
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Go cry to the one shot hunt for help...you know they go all out for wildlife.
 
highfastflyer said:
You are just succumbing to the anti-hunting community rhetoric and buying their BS hook line and sinker.

Are you willing to gamble with the lives of 20,000 elk using those feed grounds and the Largest Mule deer herds in Wyoming which will now be competing with 20,000 elk?

Should CWD infect northwest Wyoming it will not be disastrous. What would be disastrous would be eliminating elk feedgrounds and watching more than 60 percent of our elk starve to death.

The Laramie Elk herd teaches us the infection rate will probably be low, as now an area which has historically had the longest and highest infection rates is now only 1.2% in that herd amongst elk. Reduction or elimination of feedgrounds would result in the reduction of our elk herd many times greater than CWD ever will.

Elk feedgrounds have served northwest Wyoming well for more than a hundred years. It stabilizes our elk population, prevents tree and shrub damage, separates elk from livestock, and keeps elk off our snowplowed roads. Our homes, roads and businesses have been built on elk winter range. Our elk herd deserves reimbursement for that stolen habitat.

Even Wyoming Game and Fish understands the severity of closing down the feedlots. “
“We’ve elevated elk populations by supplemental feeding for over 100 years,” said Brandon Scurlock, Pinedale Region Wildlife Management coordinator for WGFD.
If the feedgrounds were shut down, about 15,000 elk would crowd onto existing winter ranges where pronghorn and mule deer herds congregate. The existing native winter range could not support the additional wildlife.”
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Haha, classic. Accuse me of spreading rhetoric by, ... spreading rhetoric.
The Laramie elk herd has taught us nothing about how CWD will behave in feedgrounds. There are no places in the world where elk behave like they do on feedgrounds, other than game farms (look up CWD infections in game farms). Elk are gregarious animals, they travel in large groups and cover thousands of acres. Elk on feedgrounds spend 180 days a year standing in an area < 150 acres, in a puddle of their own piss and sh*t. They are disease cesspools.
Brucelosis prevelance is 10X higher in feedground elk compared to free-range elk. This is EMPIRICAL DATA on how infectious diseases behave in feedgrounds, which you have none of, only rhetoric and hyperbole.
You are the one being sold B.S., and gambling on the future of our wildlife heritage.
Feedgrounds won't be shut down overnight, and 15,000 elk are not going to be turned loose on the winter range tomorrow. Their numbers will have to be reduced and they will be transitioned over time. It will be a long and challenging process, and it won't come without conflicts.
 
appaloosa said:
The Laramie elk herd has taught us nothing about how CWD will behave in feedgrounds.
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Muddy%20Mnt.jpg

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Tell these Laramie Range elk that.

But to correct some misinformation from the usual source, CWD prevalence in the Laramie herd has been around 5% and as high as 6% in the past.
 
appaloosa said:
Haha, classic. Accuse me of spreading rhetoric by, ... spreading rhetoric.
The Laramie elk herd has taught us nothing about how CWD will behave in feedgrounds. There are no places in the world where elk behave like they do on feedgrounds, other than game farms (look up CWD infections in game farms). Elk are gregarious animals, they travel in large groups and cover thousands of acres. Elk on feedgrounds spend 180 days a year standing in an area < 150 acres, in a puddle of their own piss and sh*t. They are disease cesspools.
Brucelosis prevelance is 10X higher in feedground elk compared to free-range elk. This is EMPIRICAL DATA on how infectious diseases behave in feedgrounds, which you have none of, only rhetoric and hyperbole.
You are the one being sold B.S., and gambling on the future of our wildlife heritage.
Feedgrounds won't be shut down overnight, and 15,000 elk are not going to be turned loose on the winter range tomorrow. Their numbers will have to be reduced and they will be transitioned over time. It will be a long and challenging process, and it won't come without conflicts.
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Yeah closing down elk feedlots is surely going to disperse the elk. Ever seen some of those elk on the Laramie herd during winter?
93E02E3A-939B-4FC9-A72C-13BE020DB3C8.jpeg
Just when I thought you couldn't be any less intelligent, you go and say this.... and totally redeem yourself!
 
The pictures nof elk you guys provided show large heards that move great distances all winter. If they stayed in one location all winter they could not sustain themselves. It is not even comparable to conditions in feedgrounds.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest neither of you has even seen the Dell Creek feedground.
 
appaloosa said:
The pictures nof elk you guys provided show large heards that move great distances all winter. If they stayed in one location all winter they could not sustain themselves. It is not even comparable to conditions in feedgrounds.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest neither of you has even seen the Dell Creek feedground.
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Your limb is very flimsy as I go up above Shoal Creek often and pass by that Dell Creek feedlot many, many times. Many of those large elk herds congregate by nearby haystacks on some of the large ranches in the Laramie Peak area and rarely move from them. It is even worse than the elk feed grounds as the elk feed grounds feed in different spots to break up where the elk congregate. In the Laramie herds, some of those elk stay in the same exact spot next to the haystacks all winter long awaiting their cake in massive herds 1000+ yet still have very low prevalence of CWD.
 
I meant during the winter, when they are feeding. If you are going up Shoal Creek, you have never been there in the winter.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Free range elk behave nothing like feedground elk, period. I provided you with real empirical data on how wildlife diseases behave in feedground conditions compared to free-ranging conditions. You have yet to provide any logical counter, just more hyperbole and anecdotes.
 
Here's your source. Let me know if you have trouble with any of the big words.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Status of brucellosis in free-ranging elk and bison in Wyoming - PubMed

Brucella abortus is the causative agent of brucellosis, a disease enzootic in populations of free-ranging elk (Cervus elaphus) and bison (Bison bison) in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, USA. We define the distribution of the disease in elk throughout Wyoming, USA, using three...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Wait until CWD gets in the feedgrounds, I guarantee you the body count will be a lot higher than the single dead elk I see from your fascinating "research".
You seem to have a hard time understanding complex problems and the complex solutions it will take to solve them, so I a going to walk away from this entertaining interaction. I will try one more time to impart on you that this won't happen overnight. 20,000 elk are not going to be cut loose tomorrow, its going to take years and will involve many steps and adaptive approaches.
cheers
 
appaloosa said:
Here's your source. Let me know if you have trouble with any of the big words.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Status of brucellosis in free-ranging elk and bison in Wyoming - PubMed

Brucella abortus is the causative agent of brucellosis, a disease enzootic in populations of free-ranging elk (Cervus elaphus) and bison (Bison bison) in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, USA. We define the distribution of the disease in elk throughout Wyoming, USA, using three...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Wait until CWD gets in the feedgrounds, I guarantee you the body count will be a lot higher than the single dead elk I see from your fascinating "research".
You seem to have a hard time understanding complex problems and the complex solutions it will take to solve them, so I a going to walk away from this entertaining interaction. I will try one more time to impart on you that this won't happen overnight. 20,000 elk are not going to be cut loose tomorrow, its going to take years and will involve many steps and adaptive approaches.
cheers
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I‘ve been waiting for decades but still not much activity from CWD but we know for certain what starving elk in severe winters look like with no more winter range due to human activity. We’ve been down that road over a century ago………..
B7FE1661-B252-4505-920A-6FEF63E29601.jpeg
 
appaloosa said:
Free range elk behave nothing like feedground elk, period. I provided you with real empirical data on how wildlife diseases behave in feedground conditions compared to free-ranging conditions. You have yet to provide any logical counter, just more hyperbole and anecdotes.
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CWD has been present in the Laramie elk herd, and many other Wyoming herds, for a very long time. Considering the very nature of the disease, it is hard to imagine, given the large dense wintering herds and yearlong contact elk have with one another, that the disease prevalence is not higher than it is. That seems to be the case statewide with elk, rarely a prevalence rate higher than 6%.

If you think feedground elk will have higher prevalence rates then that is your opinion and just an opinion since there is no actual proven research on this.

I happen to think the prevalence on feedgrounds won't be any different than what we seen in Wyoming elk herds for decades. And that's my opinion.
 
jm77 said:
CWD has been present in the Laramie elk herd, and many other Wyoming herds, for a very long time. Considering the very nature of the disease, it is hard to imagine, given the large dense wintering herds and yearlong contact elk have with one another, that the disease prevalence is not higher than it is. That seems to be the case statewide with elk, rarely a prevalence rate higher than 6%.

If you think feedground elk will have higher prevalence rates then that is your opinion and just an opinion since there is no actual proven research on this.

I happen to think the prevalence on feedgrounds won't be any different than what we seen in Wyoming elk herds for decades. And that's my opinion.
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I provided you with data that explicitly shows how brucellosis infection rates are up to 10X higher on feedgrounds compared to free-ranging elk. These free-ranging elk exhibit all the same behavior as the Laramie elk herd you guys continue to reference. They winter in large, dense herds and maintain year-long contact. Ironically, their prevalence rates are similarly low, 2-3%. Under feedground conditions, that prevalence jumps up to > 20%. And, in some cases, where feeding is prolonged and exposure is higher, that number exceeds 30% (aka, Dell Creek).
This is not my opinion, this is scientific fact, and the only empirical data we have on how wildlife diseases behave under feedground conditions.
You can ignore it and formulate your own opinion on CWD, mine is that this is a pretty clear indication that disease conditions on feedgrounds are unlike anywhere else.
 
appaloosa said:
I provided you with data that explicitly shows how brucellosis infection rates are up to 10X higher on feedgrounds compared to free-ranging elk. These free-ranging elk exhibit all the same behavior as the Laramie elk herd you guys continue to reference. They winter in large, dense herds and maintain year-long contact. Ironically, their prevalence rates are similarly low, 2-3%. Under feedground conditions, that prevalence jumps up to > 20%. And, in some cases, where feeding is prolonged and exposure is higher, that number exceeds 30% (aka, Dell Creek).
This is not my opinion, this is scientific fact, and the only empirical data we have on how wildlife diseases behave under feedground conditions.
You can formulate your own opinion on CWD, mine is that this is a pretty clear indication that disease conditions on feedgrounds are unlike anywhere else.
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You can compare brucellosis to CWD all day long and you still are forming an opinion on CWD that is not based on any kind of documented research. The two diseases are entirely different.

If you want to make a valid argument, provide data on CWD.
 
jm77 said:
You can compare brucellosis to CWD all day long and you still are forming an opinion on CWD that is not based on any kind of documented research. The two diseases are entirely different.

If you want to make a valid argument, provide data on CWD.
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Your right, CWD is way more infectious, persists in the environment longer, and kills every animal that contracts it. Lets completely ignore any kind of documented research on existing disease conditions in feedgrounds and see what the boys in Laramie can tell us about their elk herd. That will give us all the answers.
 
appaloosa said:
Your right, CWD is way more infectious, persists in the environment longer, and kills every animal that contracts it. Lets completely ignore any kind of documented research on existing disease conditions in feedgrounds and see what the boys in Laramie can tell us about their elk herd. That will give us all the answers.
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No, what you're ignoring is what CWD has done or not done to elk in Wyoming for decades. Under your logic the Laramie Peak herd shouldn't exist.
If it's "way more infectious, persists in the environment longer"" why isn't it more prevalent in elk statewide or even wiped out herds?
The truth is you can't answer that because no one knows.
 
Seems like they should apply next time for a 10 year extension.
“On Monday, the solution was announced – Wyoming Game and Fish has asked the Forest Service for a one-winter permit for Dell Creek feedground’s 2021-2022 winterfeeding season. The elk are fed bales of hay daily by a feeder with a team of workhorses; there are two covered hay stackyards, a corral for the horses and a tack shed.
“Game and Fish believes (Judge Freudenthal’s) recent court decision provides clarity in what was required to continue feedground operations at Dell Creek, and we’re interested in a pathway forward,” said Richard King, chief of the Game and Fish Wildlife Division.
Game and Fish is committed to maintaining feeding at Dell Creek “and is not intending to propose a closure,” public information officer Sara DiRienzo said on Monday.
The Forest Service must still approve this permit.” https://www.wyomingnews.com/wyoming...cle_2b46d5e2-261c-11ec-95cf-e7f7bb1991f7.html
 
Wonder if they can get hay

Most our hay is going up to Montana and is sold before its even cut
 
nfh said:
Wonder if they can get hay Most our hay is going up to Montana and is sold before its even cut
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nfh said:
Wonder if they can get hay Most our hay is going up to Montana and is sold before its even cut
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.

They produce about 1000 tons of hay on wildlife management areas but still purchase 5000 tons from Farson, Star Valley and Pinedale hay farms. It will definitely be costly this year as hay is above $250 per ton and another $50 ton to deliver. https://wyoleg.gov/InterimCommittee/2019/06-20191002ElkFeedgroundsWGF.pdf
 
There's an outside chance, even though it's just a guess, that if we don't let these elk starve to death this winter they could get sick and die? Even though it's been working okay for the past 50 years? We better follow the science and let them starve.

If you lose too many elk it could affect the wolf population. Just a warning.
 
State wants a 20 year extension now.
The Wyoming Game and Fish Commission proposes using Dell Creek Feedground in Sublette County’s Bondurant basin for another “20+ years,” the Bridger-Teton National Forest said in a Nov. 8 notice. The federal agency also will examine a Wyoming plan to continue feeding elk at the Forest Park Feedground in Lincoln County between the Wyoming and Salt River mountain ranges.

It could take three years to complete the environmental review, Gregory Brooks, the acting Big Piney district ranger for the national forest, wrote. He laid out that schedule in a letter granting a one-year permit for Dell Creek, a hastily issued temporary permit made necessary by a lawsuit. https://wyofile.com/feds-to-reconsider-two-elk-feedgrounds-following-cwd-discoveries/
 
appaloosa said:
This is BS, it's being perpetuated by the livestock industry and the guiding community as a scare tactic. Not a single person with a higher education in wildlife management, wildlife disease, or animal health has endorsed this theory.
Elk are already overrunning that country, and I guarantee you they are outcompeting mule deer for a lot a quality habitat right now. Summer, stop-over, and parturition range are just as important to mule deer as winter range, and they are covered up with elk. All that feedgrounds are doing is maintaining unnaturally high numbers of elk that are currently impacting mule deer. Eliminating feedgrounds and getting elk numbers back to where they should be will have nothing but a positive effect on mule deer.
But, keep feeding elk and watch what happens to CWD in the area. One thing we know for sure, is CWD kills mule deer and bucks have a higher infection rate. How many mature bucks will be running around when the CWD/feedground bomb goes off? Look at the data in areas with high CWD prevalence, they can't grow a mule deer buck past 3 years old.
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Humm, guess all those bucks we've taken over 4+ and up to 9 1/2 yrs old are figments of my imagination. Taken on property that borders Sybille Research facility. Your facts are wrong sir.
 
I still feel the WY game and fish could do some really cool things on the feed grounds. Data shows that Humic Acid from certain soil types can kill the Prion. Large scale habitat treatments are impossible pipe dreams. But targeted treatments, rotational feeding and range practices aimed at increasing humic acid in our soils, could be a huge boost to the fight against CWD. There is also renewed hope as there appears to be a specific gene that increases the immunity to CWD. Natural immunity is about the only way we will be able to beat CWD. Until then we are really just pissing on a brush fire, trying to buy time.

Until then we should do what we can to maintain the herd as best as possible. I would much rather loose 3-8 percent of a herd to CWD than see 30-60 starve...
 
wytex said:
Humm, guess all those bucks we've taken over 4+ and up to 9 1/2 yrs old are figments of my imagination. Taken on property that borders Sybille Research facility. Your facts are wrong sir.
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Strait from the WGFD JCR for Laramie Mountain:

2021 Management Summary 1.) Hunting Season Evaluation: The Laramie Mountains Mule Deer Herd Unit is 43% below the population objective of 20,000 mule deer and as a result the 2021 season is conservative in structure. There are a small amount of Type 6 licenses available throughout the herd unit to address damage concerns. The general season will remain at 16 days to take advantage of buck ratios (36 bucks:100 does) that are well past the upper end of the recreational management threshold (20-30 buck:100 does). Hunters will need to keep in mind that the majority of the male deer fall within the Class I and II categories. There are very few Class III males on the landscape, most likely due to high prevalence of CWD (long-term average of 23%) within this herd unit.

 
appaloosa said:
Strait from the WGFD JCR for Laramie Mountain:

2021 Management Summary 1.) Hunting Season Evaluation: The Laramie Mountains Mule Deer Herd Unit is 43% below the population objective of 20,000 mule deer and as a result the 2021 season is conservative in structure. There are a small amount of Type 6 licenses available throughout the herd unit to address damage concerns. The general season will remain at 16 days to take advantage of buck ratios (36 bucks:100 does) that are well past the upper end of the recreational management threshold (20-30 buck:100 does). Hunters will need to keep in mind that the majority of the male deer fall within the Class I and II categories. There are very few Class III males on the landscape, most likely due to high prevalence of CWD (long-term average of 23%) within this herd unit.

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Do you want to know where to find Class III males in 65? Just take a peek over at Wagonhound or any other big private ranch. The biggest reason there are "very few" everywhere else is their dumba$$ 16 day general season which closes on Oct 31st. But it doesn't surprise me a bit that they blame CWD. The Laramie mountains are a test area to see what happens when you kill off most of the mature deer. Funny the management summary doesn't say that.
 
appaloosa said:
Strait from the WGFD JCR for Laramie Mountain:

2021 Management Summary 1.) Hunting Season Evaluation: The Laramie Mountains Mule Deer Herd Unit is 43% below the population objective of 20,000 mule deer and as a result the 2021 season is conservative in structure. There are a small amount of Type 6 licenses available throughout the herd unit to address damage concerns. The general season will remain at 16 days to take advantage of buck ratios (36 bucks:100 does) that are well past the upper end of the recreational management threshold (20-30 buck:100 does). Hunters will need to keep in mind that the majority of the male deer fall within the Class I and II categories. There are very few Class III males on the landscape, most likely due to high prevalence of CWD (long-term average of 23%) within this herd unit.

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Calling BS on the deal. They want to scapegoat CWD for mature bucks, but then are willing to allow a 1/2 month long hunting season in order to kill the bucks. Even at 23% infection rate there would still be 75% of the heard that could reach maturity. A 16 day long season is why they don’t have mature bucks…
 
jm77 said:
Do you want to know where to find Class III males in 65? Just take a peek over at Wagonhound or any other big private ranch. The biggest reason there are "very few" everywhere else is their dumba$$ 16 day general season which closes on Oct 31st. But it doesn't surprise me a bit that they blame CWD. The Laramie mountains are a test area to see what happens when you kill off most of the mature deer. Funny the management summary doesn't say that.
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Is 64 considered the Laramie mountains?
 
elks96 said:
Calling BS on the deal. They want to scapegoat CWD for mature bucks, but then are willing to allow a 1/2 month long hunting season in order to kill the bucks. Even at 23% infection rate there would still be 75% of the heard that could reach maturity. A 16 day long season is why they don’t have mature bucks…
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Just reading along.

But, we learned in Utah when we messed around with 5, and 9 day seasons, they didn't matter much. Most of the deer were taken in the first few days. And, shorter seasons meant more pressure on the smaller bucks, as guys weren't letting them pass for fear of not having time to get another.

Carry-on
 
hossblur said:
Just reading along.

But, we learned in Utah when we messed around with 5, and 9 day seasons, they didn't matter much. Most of the deer were taken in the first few days. And, shorter seasons meant more pressure on the smaller bucks, as guys weren't letting them pass for fear of not having time to get another.

Carry-on
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But WY is not Utah. I can start hunting deer in September and if I am willing to drive around the state I can hunt until late November. Thus there is no pressure pressure to shoot the first buck we see. There are units in WY that have 5-6 day seasons. Why? Because the deer density are so low that any longer and we would wipe the herds outs. Also I 100% guarantee that fewer mature bucks would be taken in a 5 day season than a 16 days season. It is a lot easier for a big buck to hide for 5-6 days than it is for it hide for 15...

Pressure on little bucks decreases pressure on the bigger bucks.
 
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elks96 said:
But WY is not Utah. I can start hunting deer in September and if I am willing to drive around the state I can hunt until late November. Thus there is no pressure pressure to shoot the first buck we see. There are units in WY that have 5-6 day seasons. Why? Because the deer density are so low that any longer and we would wipe the herds outs. Also I 100% guarantee that fewer mature bucks would be taken in a 5 day season than a 16 days season. It is a lot easier for a big buck to hide for 5-6 days than it is for it hide for 15...

Pressure on little bucks decreases pressure on the bigger bucks.
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I started hunting deer here mid August, finished Oct 31. Utah has archery, muzzy, 2rifle seasons. Pretty similar to what your seeing.

Our LE units raise big bucks, with multiple week seasons.

Unfortunately, you raise big bucks by cutting tags drastically. It's no secret.

But be careful, that desire to hunt them, means you sit home multiple years for the chance.

You are right. Utah isn't Wyoming. Wyoming is 20-25 years behind us, but the trends are the same, outcomes are the same.

And your cities, are just starting to expand.


When you wipe out the 2points, you wipe out the mature bucks down the road.
 
elks96 said:
Calling BS on the deal. They want to scapegoat CWD for mature bucks, but then are willing to allow a 1/2 month long hunting season in order to kill the bucks. Even at 23% infection rate there would still be 75% of the heard that could reach maturity. A 16 day long season is why they don’t have mature bucks…
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Dude, you have lived here for like a year now and you have somehow developed the ability to conduct your own biological assessment of the mule deer herd in Laramie Peak. What are you, like the President of the Society for Armchair Biology?
I am not going to argue the merits of the WGFD data, but I trust the guy who wrote this report. His name is listed at the top if you ever want to call him and discuss the details of wildlife biology and population dynamics. He is a good guy and very sharp, you might learn a thing or two about population rate functions and the various forms of mortality, which you clearly don't understand.
 
appaloosa said:
Dude, you have lived here for like a year now and you have somehow developed the ability to conduct your own biological assessment of the mule deer herd in Laramie Peak. What are you, like the President of the Society for Armchair Biology?
I am not going to argue the merits of the WGFD data, but I trust the guy who wrote this report. His name is listed at the top if you ever want to call him and discuss the details of wildlife biology and population dynamics. He is a good guy and very sharp, you might learn a thing or two about population rate functions and the various forms of mortality, which you clearly don't understand.
Click to expand...
Call it how you see it. Very hard to have many mature bucks when you have a 15 plus day long general season. And by the very data quoted less than a 30% infection rate. Which is it? Do you truly believe that every buck over 4 years old is infected and dies? When it has been offered that every year on the large ranches in the unit they kill several mature bucks that are not infected?

Good attempt at a personal attack, but you failed. Common sense dictates that the lack of mature bucks has nothing to do with CWD and everything to with season structure and tag allocations...

Plenty of units in the West with CWD and trophy animals. It is a management issue not a disease issue.
 
elks96 said:
Call it how you see it. Very hard to have many mature bucks when you have a 15 plus day long general season. And by the very data quoted less than a 30% infection rate. Which is it? Do you truly believe that every buck over 4 years old is infected and dies? When it has been offered that every year on the large ranches in the unit they kill several mature bucks that are not infected?

Good attempt at a personal attack, but you failed. Common sense dictates that the lack of mature bucks has nothing to do with CWD and everything to with season structure and tag allocations...

Plenty of units in the West with CWD and trophy animals. It is a management issue not a disease issue.
Click to expand...
We have a 22 day general season and grow deer that put those Wagonhound bucks to shame, without the benefit of large private ranches tightly controlling access. Your season length argument doesn't mean squat.
I just looked at four years of pictures on their website and they have one picture of a legitimate class III deer. Most of those deer wouldn't even garner a second look through the spotting scope, hardly what I would consider "mature".

If that is the "best of the best", then I am seriously worried about our mule deer in western Wyoming. If that is the trophy quality we can expect when CWD becomes established, then we stand to lose a lot.
You can continue to "call BS" and claim "common sense" on wildlife management. I trust the professionals, and tend to give them a little more credibility than the armchairs.
 

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