There is a LOT of difference between a .277 expanding bullet going 2800 ft per second and a 45-50 cal bullet going 1000 ft per second that pencils thru. That’s an apples to oranges comparison. The .277 will put that animal down more reliably and quicker.
There is a LOT of difference between a .277 expanding bullet going 2800 ft per second and a 45-50 cal bullet going 1000 ft per second that pencils thru. That’s an apples to oranges comparison. The .277 will put that animal down more reliably and quicker.
Where we are getting our wires crossed here is your explanation of these bullets penciling through. This type of bullet does not pencil at all. Also that larger bullet isn't going as slow as 1,000fps on impact even in a handgun (max shooting distance with a revolver is generally within 100 yards) and the bullet isn't going that slow. Since you haven't heard me yet
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here goes:
A LARGE FLAT MEPLAT (meplat is the frontal surface/nose area) BULLET DOES NOT PENCIL THROUGH! IT RIPS, PLOWS, TEARS AND CRUSHES! IT BEHAVES COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM ANY POINTED OR SEMI POINTED BULLET AND DOES MORE DAMAGE THROUGHOUT THE WOUND CHANNEL! EVEN THOUGH THE BULLET IS NOT EXPANDING THE TRAUMA FROM THE WOUND CHANNEL IS MUCH LARGER THAN THE DIAMETER OF THE BULLET. It is not creating small diameter slip through the animal type of damage at all.
A fast cup and core rifle bullet will have a bigger wound channel the first few inches but after that it will be smaller than the bullets I'm referring too, but those first couple inches isn't where the killing is done. A smaller cup and core bullet has issues penetrating big heavy bone and that tougher smaller bullet usually loses a good percentage of it's size and weight when it hits or goes through big bone. and sometimes it doesn't even get through or far past the biggest leg and shoulder bones of large game like moose. That flat hard cast bullet smashes bone hard, keeps on going and is much less likely to get deflected and veer off.
My only disagreement with you here is that you don't seem to believe that large, hard, flat style bullets are extremely effective at putting big critters down fast and hard.
There is a time and place for all types of bullets or there wouldn't be so many different types and styles available and I do generally use the faster smaller stuff here in the west where longer ranges are vital (where any weapon hunts, not front-loaders are concerned) . I do agree with you that any bullet like a fmj or similar that does just slip/pencil through like you are describing won't kill worth a damn and definitely won't give quick kills. As I said earlier which you just restated in the apples/oranges analogy these are two different animals and they work/kill in different ways. Not only that but the hard cast bullet will kill better on big dangerous game than the lighter smaller bullet which will not penetrate nearly as well on bigger game such as big brownies unless you are shooting a monometal Barnes type bullet. The downside is that the big heavy bullets don't travel as far and that is why they aren't used as much here. But where the big mean critters grow it's a different story.
Ask any ALASKAN MASTER GUIDE that specializes in big brownies what they prefer to have in their hands when the chips are down. There is a reason that their clients for the most part are shooting .30-.338 caliber rifles and that reason is the average hunter is more accurate with a lesser recoiling gun but you will very rarely see that same guide using anything smaller than a .375 and up to a .458 (which is also slow) as their STOPPING RIFLE! They carry these because their rifle is a last resort to stopping a charge and these guns put stuff down harder and faster.
I've been on over 15 Coastal Brown bear hunts and every guide carried either a .375, 416 or .458 of some kind and those rifles weren't loaded with sleek, easily expanding bullets but generally a strongly constructed round nose, semi or flat tip bullet because those hit harder and put them down faster. In coastal Alaska bear hunting the bears are usually close to the thick forest and will be in it within the wink of an eye if the bear isn't put down hard, fast and on the spot. There is a big chance of not recovering it at all and when blood is spilt all ethical guides will say that the hunt is over for the client whether it's recovered or not. Every bear guide I was ever with shot the instant the clients gun roared because they wanted that big bear anchored on the spot and not lost in the jungle. (I know I'm using bears too much for an example but it is a good example and the same thing applies to other large game as well).
Yes I know that a .375 isn't the same as a muzzle loader and it shoots a bit faster than a muzzy 2,500-2,600fps with a 300 grainer (I get 2,900 from my .375 ackley). but it is the same theory when it comes to big and hard. Now when it comes to the .458 winchester which most big bore enthusiasts will tell you is even more effective at putting big things down harder and faster than the .375; it is even more comparable to a modern muzzy. A .458 winny shoots a 400 grain bullet at roughly 2,400fps; and a 300 grain bullet at 2,500-2,600fps. The fastest muzzies can shoot a 300 grain .45 caliber bullet in a .50 cal sabot close to 2,400fps. I generally shoot mine at 2,000-2,100 because that is where the accuracy node is but I can get them to 2,200fps. I can push my 400 grain .475's pretty fast in my muzzy as well, much faster than the 1,000fps you referred to.
You may not have much experience using this type of bullet and I am not saying that as a slight towards you but if you had then you would have seen and known the effectiveness of them. A big diameter, hard flat nose bullet will dump animals in their tracks faster and more often than anything. Not at 400+yards they won't like a modern centerfire cartridge but they are really really effective at up to 300 yards and a little more with the right combination and trigger finger. Within those intended ranges they transfer instant energy harder and faster than just about anything. A good analogy is the difference between being hit by a fly-weight or smashed by Tyson.
Maybe we won't change minds here and that's fine too. I probably won't be on here much for a few days, I've got to go turn some wrenches and do some body and paint before I leave early in the morning on a fishing trip with my four boys. Have a good weekend and my disagreement on the issue wasn't meant as offense towards you but just hashing things out as over a gun counter or campfire.
One more thing so I can say I'm not off track here: Even though these muzzies aren't legal in Colorado with a sabot, they are just as effective and legal on Colorado Elk if you run them at bore diameter with a paper patch as they are effective on big grizz or tiny squirrels elsewhere.?