What do you expect for XX points?

Founder

Founder

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So in the Colorado forum there was some talk about Colorado deer units and as we all hear all too often, "No hunt is worth XX points", came up. So I ask the question, what would you all expect from a deer or elk hunt that you burned 18 points on? Or any number of points? What makes one unit worth 2 points and another worth 25 in your mind?
Is there an expected trophy size requirement on whatever you shoot? Is there a certain number of deer or elk you'd need to see that would cause you to think it's worth XX points? Or is it a reduced number of hunters that would make it worth XX points?

I've always scratched my head wondering :unsure: what it really means when someone says that such-n-such unit or hunt isn't worth that many points. I know it's just their opinion, but what forms that opinion is what I wonder.
 
IMO, a larger amount of points should gain you more limited hunting pressure per mature animal in the unit. As an example, if I find a mature animal in a general/low point unit, I better be trying to harvest it right then. By building points to access more exclusive units, I hope to be able to hunt the unit more thoroughly and then try to harvest the best trophy I can find.
 
I been building Elk points in Colorado for many years, in my opinion I am looking for a Quality unit which for me is Unit 61. And for me in reality I don't figure to kill a world record bull , far from it , I am just looking for a quality hunt with lower hunter pressure in it, and take my Bull with a Muzzleloader .In this unit I hope to have a better chance to kill a Trophy bull I will be proud of. Sometimes you don't score and have to eat tag soup, just because I draw it don't mean I will kill a Bull , but I will spend the whole season trying if I have to. I have taken quite a few Bulls in Colorado and other states over the years so its not like I have not had the chance to hunt them. As a non resident I will only get one shot at this tag. With that said I will keep my fingers and toes crossed and hope I Draw . And any tips I get along the way also will be greatly appreciated
 
Founder said:
Is there an expected trophy size requirement on whatever you shoot? Is there a certain number of deer or elk you'd need to see that would cause you to think it's worth XX points? Or is it a reduced number of hunters that would make it worth XX points?
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Yes!
 
When I start seeing the majority of bucks coming out of a unit being 3-4 years old with just a few five year olds killed, it's time to draw somewhere else.
 
The expectation that I had when I started building points in Colorado and my expectation now are vastly different. When I first started I figured I would build points in Colorado until I could draw a good unit where I felt I would be hunting for something really special. I currently have 17 point and now look at it as a place I can go hunt with my Dad and enjoy the experience. If I see something in the 170 range I will probably shoot it and call it a day. I am pretty sure that I have a better chance of killing a better buck with my over the counter Wyoming tag than I now have killing a good Colorado deer that I will use 17 points on, but who knows, maybe I will be that guy driving down some road and sees a 200"er. I have never been against getting lucky, but I just don't seem to be that guy.
 
This is a great question. Obviously, the more points it takes to draw usually equates to better opportunity.

With that being said waiting x amount of years entitles the hunter to nothing more than the opportunity. Too many wait a lifetime to draw, see all the success pictures along the way, and have expectations created. The day finally comes and the realization that hunting isn't a gimme (regardless of how long you waited).

IMO, there just isn't a tag that's worth waiting the amount of years it takes anymore. If there is a unit or hunt that one wants to wait x years for, fine; but go in with the mindset that it entitles you to nothing more than an opportunity.
 
I expect a quality hunt. That means lower hunter numbers and a chance at a decent buck/bull (larger than normally available in OTC units). I don’t expect a huge trophy although that would be nice. Hunting in a pumpkin patch for a 1 1/2-2 1/2 year old buck/bull is not worthy of a bunch of points.
 
So I burned 17 points this year on the Book Cliffs Multi Season tag for deer mostly to just get out of the "points game" in Utah. I'm 71 years old and could see that unless I had a leprechaun in my pocket for luck that I would never catch up to the point creep that is happening on better LE deer units. I did take a respectable buck on the Book Cliffs unit, but not even close to be worthy of the 17 years of collecting dust-covered points. In my opinion point collecting in Utah is a joke so I and a number of my family have dumped our year's worth of point collecting and have chosen to move on to hunt other states that offer better hunting without feeding the coffers of the DWR. Good luck to those that choose to continue this effort in vain. As for Colorado, I have a friend who is still building points for elk and currently has 24 points. He'll never be guaranteed a top trophy unit because of point creep in those NW units, but he's apparently got enough money to keep buying points. Not sure why.....
 
And to answer Founder's question about what makes a unit worthy of more points, I used to think it was less hunting pressure and a higher chance of seeing and hopefully bagging a more mature animal. Antler score in my opinion is overrated. It's like someone asking how cute your girlfriend is or your date was, from 1 to 10. A trophy animal has a different meaning to different people. My date/animal harvested might be a 10 to me, but in someone else's eyes, it may only be a 4. Who the hell cares but myself or the one who matters the most. ME.
 
I burned 14 pts on a CO archery deer tag a while back. What made the hunt/unit worthy of more points for me was the lack of hunter pressure, remoteness, and the early season (which I prefer). What the hunt didn't have was a lot of big bucks! Even without the big bucks, it was still a fun and challenging hunt.
 
For a Mule Deer in states like Colorado Utah and Nevada non-residents should expect 160 class bucks to cost 17 points.
18 points: 170
19 points: 175
20 points: 180
And so on every point is worth 5 inches of score.
So if you want a 200 inch deer you’ll need at least 24 points.

And that’s for the year 2021.
With point creep our points will continue to loose value as point inflation increases.
 
The let down for some is while chasing the dream hunt and accumulating points that by the time you're there with top points, that 18 pt unit is now "worth" 8 among the inches crowd.
 
What I recently found out, while asking about cashing in my points, is it seems that while my points were going up to where I had enough to draw, the quality and quantity of the animals were going down.

A bit of a disappointment after waiting all those years.

Enough of a disappointment actually that after a few days of contemplation, I think I'm just going to sacrifice the points and forget about it.
 
I’ve been putting in for points for over 30 years and drawn some great tags. In Colorado for example I’m on my second go around on points, while hunting other states my Colorado points stacked up let’s say two species are sitting at 28 points. Yes I can hunt Antelope in any unit in the state. Colorado used to run a real quality show with CWD and oppurtunity hunting quality has gone way down hill.Waiting to draw the best unit during the rut with very few tags allotted was the goal. I’ve always looked at the states I’ve invested a lot of money in for tags as money donated for conservation and wildlife win or loose. One thing is for sure I will still draw a handful of great tags. Who knows one of these days I’m going to make a run at Colorado and Nevada.
 
Well I see a lot of states Quality going downhill, Deer seem to be at the top of the list. You can’t keep pushing these trophy units with more tags and over lapping seasons. The game and fish departments seem to be pushing oppurtunity over quality anymore
 
Point creep (at least in Utah) makes this question irrelevant. There are no units worth 25 points, anywhere, but thats what it takes to draw them. You wait a quarter century you "should" get a once in a lifetime buck. Let's say, a 200"+ buck. But how many units actually offer opportunity for that type of buck? Some bucks will never hit that number, even if they are 5-7 years old.

The Book Cliffs took 14 points to draw a guaranteed South Tag in 2020. Or you could draw a Henry's Rifle tag if you had 23 points or more... Now, I've hunted the Book Cliffs several times during the rifle hunt and seen multiple 150" deer each day throughout those hunts. So, I'd say a 150" deer is almost a guarantee. So, what is an "almost guarantee" on the Henry's that makes it worth an additional 9 years of waiting (currently)..?? A 180" buck? 190"..?

I said it in another thread- Don't trade years for inches, neither is ever a guarantee.

p.s. What's worse is, unless my kids draw random tags, they won't get to hunt an LE Deer unit until they are my age...
 
BrowningRage said:
So, what is an "almost guarantee" on the Henry's that makes it worth an additional 9 years of waiting (currently)..??
Click to expand...

Legend?

Tradition?

Guys hanging on to the belief that things never change and the next world record is hanging out in those hills?

Sometimes just the aura of the name is enough to make guys forget about anything else.

I still remember the first time I heard the name "Paunsagant", associated with elk.....
 
On a ten year tag I would hope to see a lot of calm not pressured animals, low hunter numbers and the presence of old bucks/bulls. Anything over 20 years becomes an OIL hunt in my mind. That should be an epic experience where a taxidermist will most likely be needed. I know none of this is true currently but it should be. I consider myself fortunate that I can still find quality animals on the OTC and easy draw tags. But it gets harder every year.
 
I know when I pull the trigger on anything respectable that didn’t take me 10 + points to draw I get a bit more satisfaction. With that said I always expect that is going to be a grind, it’s still hunting.
 
The amount of points it takes to draw a tag is driven by demand. Demand, however is driven by factors including hype, reputation and status often based on past hunts and not current quality. I find it funny that folks assume if a unit takes a certain amount of points, then it means a certain size animal. The two are not mutually inclusive. I think that is why some hunters have bad hunts. They spend 15 points, so that means a certain size animal. Sure there is some correlation that if a hunt is popular, it takes more points and generally is a better hunt, but no guaranteed size of animal exists.

I would take 5 deer points in Colorado in 2004 over 25 points today.

The reason I think people say a hunt is not worth 20 points now, is there finding out that they should have spent those points years ago, had multiple hunts and not waited for 20 years for quality that no longer exists.

Rich
 
lostinOregon said:
Demand, however is driven by factors including hype, reputation and status often based on past hunts and not current quality.

The reason I think people say a hunt is not worth 20 points now, is there finding out that they should have spent those points years ago, had multiple hunts and not waited for 20 years for quality that no longer exists.
Click to expand...

Nailed it.
 
Deerlove said:
I see people use 15 to 18 pts to draw the bookcliffs. Whats's it worth, 3?
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they have made the book cliffs a garbage unit
bull elk are slim to none has went in the tank worse every year
it all started when spike hunts started down hill on steep grade
too many deer tags sold not many deer left out there hard to find even 3 point any more
 
18 points for deer and 13 for elk Colorado
the units I started putting in years ago
will not be able to draw for 5 years plus
 
Most guys sitting on a lot of points like myself were not sitting around waiting for the perfect year. I have hunted hard all over the west and drawn a lot of good tags. This is just how it ended up. I don’t regret any of it and I don’t wish I would have cashed in earlier, I was busy hunting. I look forward to hunting Colorado when I get the chance. The quality might not be there anymore, but when I do draw I will have a good time
 
hawkbill said:
Most guys sitting on a lot of points like myself were not sitting around waiting for the perfect year.
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Exactly.

I was actually applying every year, unsuccessfully, and adding a point each time as a result.

If I had my choice. I would've gladly been taking tags in exchange for points.

It's not like we were secretly stashing thee things away in some creative scheme.

Now that I'm *almost* getting close enough to taste it, it feels like my precious points are much less valuable than I thought they'd be as I anxiously watched them accumulate.
 
ColdBore said:
Now that I'm *almost* getting close enough to taste it, it feels like my precious points are much less valuable than I thought they'd be as I anxiously watched them accumulate.
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They will be far less precious if never used or held onto too long. I am still buying as many points as I can simply to keep afloat with basic “opportunity” but where I have 20+ and still no hope, I am wavering between holding and folding. For now, I am taking advantage of the dying gasps of OTC hunting before throwing in the towel on those dream OIL.
 
I have folded several states where I had a lot of points. At least you will draw a tag in Colorado compared to Montana non-resident Sheep odds at .01 percent
 
I didnt start building pts with only trophies in mind and never expected a for sure trophy either but with all the pts I have the lE hunts are like otc for me and my wife. I may never be able to do all the hunts, and never have not had enough hunts per year since I was in my teens. Its like investing and I invested well. I am not always a trophy hunter making thing much easier for me, one example was having enough pts for any antelope hunt for colo. so when I was ready to go I took a unit based on the size of the area and the best part was only 25 tags,it was certainly a nice hunt and it only took 3/4 of the points I had, I never expected a trophy but got one anyhow. some of the best deer tags I have had I passed on deer that would have been my best ever and eating a tag was ok
 
Katoom said:
They will be far less precious if never used or held onto too long. I am still buying as many points as I can simply to keep afloat with basic “opportunity” but where I have 20+ and still no hope, I am wavering between holding and folding.
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That's the thing... we're not "holding on too long" by choice.

At some point, and I'm rapidly approaching it, some of us will just throw up our hands and say "Enough, I'm done".

Sure, that makes others giddy when some of us drop out, as it helps their point creep lessen. You're welcome. ?
 
I guess I don't understand the were not holding on too long. Are you applying for a unit that you will never draw? If I started today and wanted to hunt the NW corner for elk in Colorado and I keep applying, I will never catch that hunt. Certain hunts are not attainable. So you are not really doing anything but collecting points. There are actually quite a few hunts now, where if you were beginning today you won't catch in your lifetime. The amount of people in the 5 to 10 point pools are staggering. I think a lot of folks don't understand how the draws work and how many years they will have to apply to draw a certain tag.

Rich
 
Some guys have a lot of points because maybe they've had better hunts to do each year, or been buying LO tags for years, or grabbed some re-issues, etc.
Sometimes points are just in a "Rainy Day Fund" for when other opportunities dry up.
There's only so much time each fall to hunt and if someone doesn't need to burn points, then they accumulate them and some day are sitting around with 18 or 20 points thinking about burning them.
You know what I mean?
 
Yes, I understand completely. You basically described my plan to a T. That's exactly what I do. I do think there are a bunch of folks that don't understand how the draws work and say they keep applying and now have 20 points. Not everyone is like you and me in that we hunt 3-4 hunts per year no matter what. I'm not trying to put those guys down, I'm trying to shed light on that they may have a flawed draw plan that will never come to fruition. An example of this is guys who apply for the NW corner for Colorado elk. They may have 20 points, but are still 30 years away and have no understanding. I can give you examples of this scenario in almost every state. How many points it takes to draw the tag last year is irrelevant. The number of people trying to draw the same tag in front of you with more or the same amount of points determines how long it will take. I don't mind helping guys who don't understand the state systems figure out when they are going to draw. At the least the guys that have been saving/buying points will have some options, even if it is not the hunt that they started saving the points for in the first place.
 
40 years ago there were not that many guys putting in for every state in the west. I was very lucky in drawing tags and a lot of it is luck, and I saw that if I just stuck with applying in different states it was an investment in my hunting future. I also didn’t get hung up on one species. I won’t go into all the tags I’ve drawn but in the years past there 4 sheep tags, 4 Shirus Moose tags, 2 Mountain Goat tags and a lot of Elk and Deer tags. Oh I forgot about the hundreds of Bears and Lions caught, now I’m after Wolves big time. I think you are right LostinOregon there are a lot of guys in the middle of the pack trying to get that special tag that is just out of reach. The reality the best hunts only issue a handful of tags.
 
I have to disagree with some of the replies that imply that guys are unrealistic to continue to wait for the hunt they want, and shoot "settle" for a lesser hunt.

Somebody who has been applying and accumulating points for 10, 15, 20 years doesn't want to just give in, settle for a lesser hunt just for "the experience of hunting", go spend thousands and thousands of dollars and untold time and energy just to maybe shoot some immature raghorn, and reset his points counter to zero.

In my own case, I'd rather just quit applying at some point and sacrifice my points than to spend a bunch of money and effort on a sub-par hunt just to use them. I'll either get a good hunt that I'll enjoy, or I won't hunt.
 
ColdBore said:
I have to disagree with some of the replies that imply that guys are unrealistic to continue to wait for the hunt they want, and shoot "settle" for a lesser hunt.

Somebody who has been applying and accumulating points for 10, 15, 20 years doesn't want to just give in, settle for a lesser hunt just for "the experience of hunting", go spend thousands and thousands of dollars and untold time and energy just to maybe shoot some immature raghorn, and reset his points counter to zero.

In my own case, I'd rather just quit applying at some point and sacrifice my points than to spend a bunch of money and effort on a sub-par hunt just to use them. I'll either get a good hunt that I'll enjoy, or I won't hunt.
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If you think you need a 20+ point unit to kill a mature animal then go ahead and drop out. It wont hurt anyone's feeling but your own.

Simple fact is there are some hunts that are unattainable if you cant see that and have no desire to find a unit that is attainable that you can have a good hunt on then quit.
 
JakeH said:
If you think you need a 20+ point unit to kill a mature animal .....
Click to expand...

Go ahead and ignore the first part of that sentence, and selectively cut out the one piece that you want (and before you say it, I put in ..... to show that I snipped out the rest of yours, but it didn't materially change the content).

And I didn't say "need", I said "continue to wait for the hunt they WANT".

Some guys would rather wait for the hunt that they want, rather than play the "numbers of hunts per year" game on any unit in any state that they can draw. Some guys would rather go big or go home, while others are content to line the garage wall with a bunch of mediocre racks so that they can tell their buddies how many deer they killed.

To each their own.
 
ColdBore said:
Go ahead and ignore the first part of that sentence, and selectively cut out the one piece that you want (and before you say it, I put in ..... to show that I snipped out the rest of yours, but it didn't materially change the content).

And I didn't say "need", I said "continue to wait for the hunt they WANT".

Some guys would rather wait for the hunt that they want, rather than play the "numbers of hunts per year" game on any unit in any state that they can draw. Some guys would rather go big or go home, while others are content to line the garage wall with a bunch of mediocre racks so that they can tell their buddies how many deer they killed.

To each their own.
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I dont know what you are talking about, I didn't "cut out" anything you said, I quoted your whole post.

You are missing the point completely You said it you disagreed with the guys saying it is unrealistic to wait for a unit. There are some hunts/units that are 100% out of the reach of a vast majority of people, You will never acquire enough points to draw these units unless you have already been in the game for 20 years, and even then you may have another 20 to go. The fact you think you need a 20 point unit to have a "good hunt" tells a lot about you. I do not know your points situation, go ahead and wait if that's what you want to do, or quit like you keep saying you are going to do. I am in favor of both of those options for you, and wish more guys would do either, I will keep hunting and killing deer, lining my walls with mediocrity.

But go ahead and quit, really do it, you will not be hurting my feelings one bit. I find the whining comical, keep it up.
 
You keep referring to 20 points, while skipping where I mentioned 10 or 15 points. That's what I'm referring to.

And yes, some hunts may be beyond the reach of somebody starting the points game today, but a whole bunch of guys aren't, and have been accumulating points for a long time.

They don't want to sacrifice those points on a lesser hunt, to start again at zero, to shoot the mediocre bucks that you are apparently happy with.

Your patronizing is comical, keep going. I'm out of this one.
 
ColdBore said:
You keep referring to 20 points, while skipping where I mentioned 10 or 15 points. That's what I'm referring to.

And yes, some hunts may be beyond the reach of somebody starting the points game today, but a whole bunch of guys aren't, and have been accumulating points for a long time.

They don't want to sacrifice those points on a lesser hunt, to start again at zero, to shoot the mediocre bucks that you are apparently happy with.

Your patronizing is comical, keep going. I'm out of this one.
Click to expand...
I know some damn good hunts that could be had with 10-20 points. If your basing the units on points alone, a lot of units are going to disappoint. There are giants killed in 0 to 5 point units every year, They are harder to find but they are there, or was before the CDOW started giving out more tags and later and later hunts.

If you are in the 10-15 points pool you will not draw most of the top end hunts in your lifetime that's just a simple fact, tell me what hunt you are after, and how many points you have and I can tell you how far out you are its pretty easy to figure out for Colorado.

I just found your whiny poor me comments "if I cant get the unit I want I'm just going to quit" comical, and reminiscent of my 3 year old getting mad when I wont give her something she wants. Go ahead and stay home.
 
JakeH said:
..... before the CDOW started giving out more tags...

... its pretty easy to figure out for Colorado.
Click to expand...

You *do* know that the world extends beyond the Colorado border, right?

And that lots of guys have points in other states?
 
hawkbill said:
40 years ago there were not that many guys putting in for every state in the west. I was very lucky in drawing tags and a lot of it is luck, and I saw that if I just stuck with applying in different states it was an investment in my hunting future. I also didn’t get hung up on one species. I won’t go into all the tags I’ve drawn but in the years past there 4 sheep tags, 4 Shirus Moose tags, 2 Mountain Goat tags and a lot of Elk and Deer tags. Oh I forgot about the hundreds of Bears and Lions caught, now I’m after Wolves big time. I think you are right LostinOregon there are a lot of guys in the middle of the pack trying to get that special tag that is just out of reach. The reality the best hunts only issue a handful of tags.
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Damn hawkbill, can I hate you now? You have drawn some bad-a$$ tags.
 
JakeH said:
I dont know what you are talking about, I didn't "cut out" anything you said, I quoted your whole post.

You are missing the point completely You said it you disagreed with the guys saying it is unrealistic to wait for a unit. There are some hunts/units that are 100% out of the reach of a vast majority of people, You will never acquire enough points to draw these units unless you have already been in the game for 20 years, and even then you may have another 20 to go. The fact you think you need a 20 point unit to have a "good hunt" tells a lot about you. I do not know your points situation, go ahead and wait if that's what you want to do, or quit like you keep saying you are going to do. I am in favor of both of those options for you, and wish more guys would do either, I will keep hunting and killing deer, lining my walls with mediocrity.

But go ahead and quit, really do it, you will not be hurting my feelings one bit. I find the whining comical, keep it up.
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Jake, I’ll take some of your mediocre animals any day. I guess you just get lucky on those lesser units. Funny I know several of our Basin friends that have that kind of luck regularly sometimes even on the general units here. Just lucky I guess. I’d love to hunt the glamour units, but mostly, I love to hunt often. I’ve never drawn a glamorous unit, and at my age never will. Tags in lesser units keep me point poor, but I get to hunt, and don’t need a bragin’ buck or bull to impress my friends. I like the go big or go home crowd, because it slows point creep on the mediocre units I hunt.
 
I enjoy the speech I get every year when I’m grouse hunting. Yes I understand that you have x points riding on that elk tag, but they didn’t close the mountain to you and I enjoy grouse hunting while I’m waiting to draw my next LE TAG....
 
Coldbore,

PM me the units you are trying to draw and with your point totals I will tell you how long it will take you to draw with attrition factored in. I am not trying to get your secret spots. I killed a bull on a leftover muzzy tag this year and have one point for elk and will draw that same tag this year. I have 2 points for deer so I'm not a danger.

Rich
 
A few years ago I would have bet that I could kill a 170+ deer in almost any unit in Colorado whether it was 0 points or 20. Maybe not so much any more as the deer herd is struggling.

Elk I would say for 20+ points you likely get a great shot at a 300-330 class bull, occasionally slightly bigger. Not sure its worth 20 years as there are definitely some bulls of that caliber killed on the OTC, they're just a needle in the haystack kind of deal. So your odds improve slightly with limited units and you can hunt OTC in the meantime. Problem is you may never catch point creep....
 
lostinOregon said:
Coldbore,

PM me the units you are trying to draw and with your point totals I will tell you how long it will take you to draw with attrition factored in. I am not trying to get your secret spots. I killed a bull on a leftover muzzy tag this year and have one point for elk and will draw that same tag this year. I have 2 points for deer so I'm not a danger.

Rich
Click to expand...

I appreciate the offer, but believe it or not, I don't have one consistent unit that I am locked in on.

I'll change it up some years, or maybe the order of preference, depending on various factors, or just my mood.

And for what it's worth, the points I'm talking about in my own case, are not in Colorado. That's the situation for a lot of others guys as well.
 
You guys got me all fired up to burn some points, I think I will head to Browns Park for a little Antelope hunting,camping, some fishing. I will bring my daughter along she likes to catch Rattle Snakes. Any other input would be appriated.
 
18 Colorado points rewarded me with this ol' boy. But that was 10 years ago.
So would 28 points get me a chance at something like that this year?
I'm pretty happy I cashed in when I did!

IMG_1811 (1).jpg
 
Nice buck Hawk!

to answer the OP’s question, I hope to never be in that situation to where I waited half my life to draw an area that I started putting in for 30 years ago to finally draw it and realize the obvious...quality was removed from the area due to popularity and outfitters, etc.

So my thought process is: draw a tag as quick as I can for whatever unit I can and go hunt it! To never set foot on the “Henry’s” with a weapon or other “coveted” tag area’s ain’t gonna rub me wrong.

I could care less. I don’t believe there’s a place in this world worth waiting 20-30 years to draw a tag!

Disappointment will most likely follow you next, even if you’re successful killing an animal!

You’ll be so set on “killing the right animal” to make those 20-30 years worth it that you will most likely forget to have fun and treat the hunt like a job rather than a chance to get out and enjoy the sport with friends and family!

Give me an area that I can draw with a couple points! If I hunt and don’t kill, no big deal! There’s always the next couple years!
 
BloodTracker summed it up well.

Too many of us spent time trying to draw, and missed some good opportunities along the way.

I'm not sure how I could've done things much differently, as I was legitimately putting in for tags from the beginning, not trying to strategize, but I fear that now some of the better quality hunting is behind us.

Oh well.....
 
I agree Bloodtracker with today’s modern hunter. I haven’t missed any hunting seasons, have never not drawn a tag or two or three every year. No one was expecting that our trophy hunting was going to turn to oppurtunity hunting. I see it happening in every state. Look at the top units in all the western states, if you draw a top unit in Utah, Arizona or Nevada you need to have a football team of spotters to be in the game. Quality will always drop when you issue to many tags. I am not excited at all on what Colorado has done, but would I trade where I’m at in Colorado for a Pausagant tag, no I will not. My trophy days might be over, that’s not what I want, but maybe it’s time to start harvesting yearlings and two year olds to bring home to my wife. God knows she deserves it after bringing home 10 to 12 year old Goats and Sheep that were all grizzled up and not very tasty. I’m glad I can still draw some tags in a few states. So what do xx points mean today, not much, but a fun vacation
 
hawkbill said:
Look at the top units in all the western states, if you draw a top unit in Utah, Arizona or Nevada you need to have a football team of spotters to be in the game.
Click to expand...

I think that's one of the things that bothers me the most.

Not only are tags hard enough to draw in top areas, but if you do, you feel like you've got slim chances against the outfitter armies that match the best animals step for step, round the clock for weeks, until their hunter shows up to deliver the shot.

So many things about "hunting" have changed.
 

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