Fair Chase

AZGuy

AZGuy

Active Member
Messages
907
I like this from AZGFD, but it won’t change a thing. What’s unfair chase to you? To me it’s 16 LDS peeps sitting behind one deer in Northern Arizona, chugging energy drinks and high fiving on the SxS after the tactical brief in the morning.

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chuckD said:
That’s the group, like it or not. Stone me if you’d like.
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No, I won't stone you.

Still unbelievable and poor form whether true or not.

So if someone does something that you don't like (albeit legal), it comes back to a religious denomination? Unbelievable!

I agree with your basic premise but you're still just "kicking against the pricks" by adding your insulting commentary.

You can have your thread back. I'm sure you're hoping some will pile on with you for some pathetic reason.

Zeke
 
I am Mormon Zeke.
Zeke said:
No, I won't stone you.

Still unbelievable and poor form whether true or not.

So if someone does something that you don't like (albeit legal), it comes back to a religious denomination? Unbelievable!

I agree with your basic premise but you're still just "kicking against the pricks" by adding your insulting commentary.

You can have your thread back. I'm sure you're hoping some will pile on with you for some pathetic reason.

Zeke
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Everyone relax and jump down off your high horse. Judas, he’s obviously just being a smart “A”. I would agree though hunters from Utah are the worst. Often times herds of them come together with their flatty’s, Mtnops, and vortex optics to put the moves on one critter and then go off on their channel about what a great accomplishment and team effort it all was... critter never stood a chance. I’m all for hunting with your buds, but many, especially from Utah take that way too far. Hard hunting, competitive little buggers they are. Have to say though, not a fan of big group hunts. I think some of the big name outfits in Utah materialized this style and many up and comers latched on and took it to the next level. See it all the time in Utah on draw hunts, and seeing it more on out of state hunts. More times than not the party is from Utah, and more times than not they are promoting a “channel”. To each their own, the young bloods eat this crap up, but I’m not a fan. I think it’s the generation we live in more than anything. Peeps now days thirst for recognition and have egos to feed more than ever. I think we can thank social media for that.
 
fullthrottle said:
Everyone relax and jump down off your high horse. Judas, he’s obviously just being a smart “A”. I would agree though hunters from Utah are the worst. Often times herds of them come together with their flatty’s, Mtnops, and vortex optics to put the moves on one critter and then go off on their channel about what a great accomplishment and team effort it all was... critter never stood a chance. I’m all for hunting with your buds, but many, especially from Utah take that way too far. Hard hunting, competitive little buggers they are. Have to say though, not a fan of big group hunts. I think some of the big name outfits in Utah materialized this style and many up and comers latched on and took it to the next level. See it all the time in Utah on draw hunts, and seeing it more on out of state hunts. More times than not the party is from Utah, and more times than not they are promoting a “channel”. To each their own, the young bloods eat this crap up, but I’m not a fan. I think it’s the generation we live in more than anything. Peeps now days thirst for recognition and have egos to feed more than ever. I think we can thank social media for that.
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Well said Full throttle. Certainly makes it interesting when you show up with a buddy or two and see a few dozen people in the field without a tag, on every high point in the unit and talking on radios. Is it really fair chase?
 
chuckD said:
Well said Full throttle. Certainly makes it interesting when you show up with a buddy or two and see a few dozen people in the field without a tag, on every high point in the unit and talking on radios. Is it really fair chase?
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I guess it depends on where they go to church, right? ?
 
I own radios. Im fine if they get banned.

I generally turn them off because we spend more time talking chit, then anything. But they are nice after a kill.

ID be fine without the damn Mormons too. Well not really, the res a few in camp, and they are top quality dudes. But, THEY dont get BUTTHURT. Perhaps they are out liers?

Seriously. You'll survive if someone calls you a Mormon. GROW A SET, snowflake.

The OP isn't far off. Dont let your trigger overwhelm the fact. Not one if you would get your panties in a bunch if hed said "flat brimmer", or " millennial".

None of you are Porter Rockwell. This aint Missouri. Gear down a bit.
 
Yes, indeed, we do read "that" Bible and we do get the reference. But the woman was actually caught in the act and all you have is a picture of some people hauling out a bull elk. You have no idea how many were actually hunting "that" bull.

While growing up, we always camped and hunted as a family, but on opening morning we went in pairs or threesomes in 4 or 5 or 7 different directions, usually about a mile from camp to hunt our own way. Some of us still-hunted, some walked and stalked, some of us just sat on a hill side and waited. And when we heard a shot or two or three, we got on our walkie-talkies to find out if we had one or two or three down and we would gather together to haul the deer to camp. If you were to take a picture of that, you would also think we didn't hunt fair chase, but you'd be wrong! We were family, but were also different types of hunters and helped each other field dress and haul out the deer. And were excited for each others success.

Things are not always as they seem and certainly not always as you wish them to be!
 
elkfromabove said:
Yes, indeed, we do read "that" Bible and we do get the reference. But the woman was actually caught in the act and all you have is a picture of some people hauling out a bull elk. You have no idea how many were actually hunting "that" bull.

While growing up, we always camped and hunted as a family, but on opening morning we went in pairs or threesomes in 4 or 5 or 7 different directions, usually about a mile from camp to hunt our own way. Some of us still-hunted, some walked and stalked, some of us just sat on a hill side and waited. And when we heard a shot or two or three, we got on our walkie-talkies to find out if we had one or two or three down and we would gather together to haul the deer to camp. If you were to take a picture of that, you would also think we didn't hunt fair chase, but you'd be wrong! We were family, but were also different types of hunters and helped each other field dress and haul out the deer. And were excited for each others success.

Things are not always as they seem and certainly not always as you wish them to be.
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I can respect this rationale, absolutely!
 
The concept of an 'outfitter' anywhere except wilderness is comical... Here in Utah, the easier the hunt, the more 'outfitters' there are scattered all over the unit... Which hunts attract the most outfitters? Elk hunts, with a rifle, in the rut. Archery deer hunts over watering holes. Or worse yet, all of the above, plus on private CWMUs.

There's probably 2 outfitters in Utah that could pull a 4 year old buck off the North Slope in Sept. Or a 6 point bull elk off the same area in October. Tough areas and tough hunts don't appeal to most flat brimmers and youtubers.
 
BrowningRage said:
The concept of an 'outfitter' anywhere except wilderness is comical... Here in Utah, the easier the hunt, the more 'outfitters' there are scattered all over the unit... Which hunts attract the most outfitters? Elk hunts, with a rifle, in the rut. Archery deer hunts over watering holes. Or worse yet, all of the above, plus on private CWMUs.

There's probably 2 outfitters in Utah that could pull a 4 year old buck off the North Slope in Sept. Or a 6 point bull elk off the same area in October. Tough areas and tough hunts don't appeal to most flat brimmers and youtubers.
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I sent DM to Elk 101, Newberg, Born and Raised, Phelps, HUSH, the BUGLER a couple years ago challenging all of them to show everyone how good they really are and come kill elk on the N. Slope during archery or rifle. Still waiting for that video to show up.
 
hossblur said:
I sent DM to Elk 101, Newberg, Born and Raised, Phelps, HUSH, the BUGLER a couple years ago challenging all of them to show everyone how good they really are and come kill elk on the N. Slope during archery or rifle. Still waiting for that video to show up.
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That’s awesome!
 
There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Lord never blessed me with that many friends, or maybe I just never deserved them.
 
BrowningRage said:
The concept of an 'outfitter' anywhere except wilderness is comical... Here in Utah, the easier the hunt, the more 'outfitters' there are scattered all over the unit... Which hunts attract the most outfitters? Elk hunts, with a rifle, in the rut. Archery deer hunts over watering holes. Or worse yet, all of the above, plus on private CWMUs.

There's probably 2 outfitters in Utah that could pull a 4 year old buck off the North Slope in Sept. Or a 6 point bull elk off the same area in October. Tough areas and tough hunts don't appeal to most flat brimmers and youtubers.
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Damn straight!!!.... I've often wondered if hiring a guide to guide me on the north slope would be any better than I do on my own. That unit is toughest one in the state by far!!
 
hossblur said:
I sent DM to Elk 101, Newberg, Born and Raised, Phelps, HUSH, the BUGLER a couple years ago challenging all of them to show everyone how good they really are and come kill elk on the N. Slope during archery or rifle. Still waiting for that video to show up.
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Yup... I challenge ANYONE... Moss, Kalan, ANY OF THEM, to get a 27in buck or a 300 class elk off the north slope with any consistency.
 
I'm no fan of the kill photos with 12 spotters. Having said that, I think its common in Utah because it takes so long to get a good tag. If I lived there and my buddy drew a great tag I would want to go, who wouldn't. We see the guide photos with all the flat brimmers but I bet most the time the extra spotters that tag along are just friends and family wishing they had the tag in their pocket.
 
desperatehills said:
I'm no fan of the kill photos with 12 spotters. Having said that, I think its common in Utah because it takes so long to get a good tag. If I lived there and my buddy drew a great tag I would want to go, who wouldn't. We see the guide photos with all the flat brimmers but I bet most the time the extra spotters that tag along are just friends and family wishing they had the tag in their pocket.
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100% I would just question is it fair chase if I have 20 spotters w me?
 
chuckD said:
100% I would just question is it fair chase if I have 20 spotters w me?
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I guess the real question I would ask you is are you willing to let the government further restrict and regulate your hunting? Give an inch pretty soon it’s a mile. You’ll never get it back.
 
hossblur said:
I sent DM to Elk 101, Newberg, Born and Raised, Phelps, HUSH, the BUGLER a couple years ago challenging all of them to show everyone how good they really are and come kill elk on the N. Slope during archery or rifle. Still waiting for that video to show up.
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That's a fantastic ask. I will say that I think Randy Newberg is probably the only one that would even try it. I don't think he would kill anything, but he'd do it. He's been on quite a few hunts that ended with no harvest, and some without even seeing his quarry. That's a North Slope elk hunt. LOL
 
BrowningRage said:
That's a fantastic ask. I will say that I think Randy Newberg is probably the only one that would even try it. I don't think he would kill anything, but he'd do it. He's been on quite a few hunts that ended with no harvest, and some without even seeing his quarry. That's a North Slope elk hunt. LOL
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Agreed Newberg is probably the only one that would take this challenge, but then again Newberg is not a flat-brimmer and hunts for the right reasons, so there's that.;)

This whole thread cracks me up, especially the over generalizations about Utah hunters. Do some hunt with big groups? yeah, but some don't as well. Wasn't it Mark Twain that said "All generalizations are false, including this one" :ROFLMAO:
 
Hunt4more said:
I guess the real question I would ask you is are you willing to let the government further restrict and regulate your hunting? Give an inch pretty soon it’s a mile. You’ll never get it back.
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I am not advocating for change. I was looking for honest opinions on what is or isn’t “fair chase.” Would I be OK with with change 100%
 
Hunt4more said:
I guess the real question I would ask you is are you willing to let the government further restrict and regulate your hunting? Give an inch pretty soon it’s a mile. You’ll never get it back.
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My "ancestors" got pretty pissed at tge regulation on killing Buffalo. And punt guns for ducks. Irate about beaver trapping.

I know in my lifetime, waterfowl hunting went straight to hell when we went to steel.

Fishing was destroyed by 4 fish limits.

Scouting is horrific without drones.

Im with you!! Mossback deserves to run 400 cams. WLH has a right to kill sheep where ever he pleases.

Down with this government treachery!!!
 
There is a lot to be said about this topic. I had a good friend finally drew the Henry’s Rifle tag 2 years ago, hired an Outfitter, went scouting found a handful of good to great bucks. By the time his season opened all the Big Bucks had been killed and there were spotters everywhere, he turned the tag back in. In 2019 he drew a Pauns muzzleloader tag and hired an outfitter, when he got down there to hunt there were 6 outfitters chasing the same Deer. So with guides and spotters he said there were probaby around a hundred guys out looking. The Deer was finally wounded with a 6 hundred yard shot and never recovered by one of the other hunters and outfitters. i am no longer chasing Utah tags this is not the style of hunting I like. I do not have many friends and I like it that way, If I have a great tag l like it one on one with the animal, yea my chances are not as good as if I had a football team of spotters, 100 trail cams, truck loads of apples. I have found that quite a few folks don’t like being in the woods by themselves. I think Utah is a great state with good people, this is just not my style of hunting. We have different problems going on in Idaho, like the great human migration, let’s throw another10,000 resident hunters in the pool while we blame the non- resident hunter for the decline of the Mule Deer.
 
Tristate said:
Why do you care if someone else hunts "fair chase"?
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Because it affects all of us.....and the herd.

To say it doesn't is ridiculous. But you will still say it doesn’t... wont you?

All game laws are a result of fair chase and ethics. Even quotas to a degree.

I know you will say, "if fish and wildlife says 250 deer can be harvested on a given unit then by gawd dont worry how its done!" etc. etc....

Man's evolution and the tools he uses naturally improve harvest rates. Thus, there must be adjustments made to keep from over harvest of the game. There are a few ways to do that. Two right off the top are to limit tags and to limit equipment. I would rather limit equipment, tightening what we view to be fair chase is one way of doing that.

Of course another way would be to give everyone a tag and put a quota of the number of deer you want removed from an area. Remove ALL LAWS limiting how one can harvest a game animal (who cares if someone else is utilizing fair chase right Tri?) and and just kill the quota then shut it down...
 
"stewardship, opportunity and sustainability"

Fair chase isn't stewardship. Cattle have been handed down through the ages from ancestor to beneficiary and then slaughtered and none of it was "fair chase". Stewardship is something different.

Sustainability is a benefit of management, not just harvest so "fair chase" really doesn't have anything to do with sustainability.

Opportunity hasn't been effected by party hunting. In fact it could be effectively argued that the public has found a way to turn one tag into opportunity for many. Even fiscal opportunity is increased through these types of hunt.



"Because it affects all of us.....and the herd."

It doesn't effect all of us and it does effect the herd but we don't base wildlife management on just whether the herd is effected. You effect the herd every time you kill something so that is negative??????

"All game laws are a result of fair chase and ethics."

Absolutely incorrect.

"Thus, there must be adjustments made to keep from over harvest of the game."

Adjustments like quit issuing tags for deer you can't spare to kill. Because that is the only real functional option.

If you manage the herd correctly and manage your harvest correctly it doesn't matter in the least bit how the animal is killed.
 
Tristate,
Having fair chase principals are the foundation of the three reasons I noted.

Plenty of opportunities have been spoiled for hunters by those that chose to use questionable tactics (even know the rules say they can do it)

Sustainability is 100% an objective that is highly influenced by hunters that have 2 dozen helpers and 800 trail cams. I’d be happy to explain how several units have seen reduction in tags and trophy quality, If you’d like.

Stewardship is managing and if you don’t think guys on every knob and going to drinkers multiple times a day to check cameras doesn’t affect the natural welll being of an animal then have I got a deal for you.
And for the record it does matter how the animal is killed or we would allow party hunting in AZ or night hunting or hunting from aircraft or under a spotlight.
 
"Tristate,
Having fair chase principals are the foundation of the three reasons I noted."


Maybe for you but not for other people. SO why are you concerned with if other people hunt "Fair chase"?

They can be stewards without "Fair chase". They and others can actually have more opportunity without "fair chase". They can hunt sustainably without "fair chase". So why is it important to you that others are in lockstep with your hunting beliefs? Why is it important to force your beliefs on other people?
 
Tristate said:
"Tristate,
Having fair chase principals are the foundation of the three reasons I noted."


Maybe for you but not for other people. SO why are you concerned with if other people hunt "Fair chase"?

They can be stewards without "Fair chase". They and others can actually have more opportunity without "fair chase". They can hunt sustainably without "fair chase". So why is it important to you that others are in lockstep with your hunting beliefs? Why is it important to force your beliefs on other people?
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Ur right Tristate, who needs fair chase!
“It doesn’t matter in the least bit how the animal is killed” -Tristate.
That’s going to be my new quote.
 
Tristate said:
"stewardship, opportunity and sustainability"

Fair chase isn't stewardship. Cattle have been handed down through the ages from ancestor to beneficiary and then slaughtered and none of it was "fair chase". Stewardship is something different.

Sustainability is a benefit of management, not just harvest so "fair chase" really doesn't have anything to do with sustainability.

Opportunity hasn't been effected by party hunting. In fact it could be effectively argued that the public has found a way to turn one tag into opportunity for many. Even fiscal opportunity is increased through these types of hunt.



"Because it affects all of us.....and the herd."

It doesn't effect all of us and it does effect the herd but we don't base wildlife management on just whether the herd is effected. You effect the herd every time you kill something so that is negative??????

"All game laws are a result of fair chase and ethics."

Absolutely incorrect.

"Thus, there must be adjustments made to keep from over harvest of the game."

Adjustments like quit issuing tags for deer you can't spare to kill. Because that is the only real functional option.

If you manage the herd correctly and manage your harvest correctly it doesn't matter in the least bit how the animal is killed.
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I'll play...

First, fair chase has affected all of us as hunters.

How? Before the laws imposed on hunting in the name of fair chase, game populations were going in the tank, no? So the introduction of fair chase positively affected North American hunting and hunters.

As for my statement of ALL hunting laws being based on fair chase, you are correct not all are. But by far MOST are. Aside from limits on amount of game taken.

If not list 5 hunting laws that are not based on fair chase. If you find that too easy list 10. Out of the hundreds of laws governing how we take game.

The only place I listed adjustments for taking game was my proposal for no laws on method of take just sell an unlimited number of tags and strictly enforce a quota.

I would add to it though. Sell the tags in July and folks just start hunting. However they want. Keep selling tags. A guy can kill as many as he wants, till the unit quota fills.

This will make the opportunity folks happy, yes? We all get a tag.

The trophy hunter should be happy. He has a tag and some time to get it done. How much time? Eh, who knows?

Every faction of the how to get it done crowds should be ok with it. They can do it "their way", shouldn't matter to anyone how else someone else gets it done.

Fish and wildlife should be THRILLED with the plan. Only the number of animals that they want harvested will be harvested, yet they will sell WAY more tags (unlimited remember?). It should require less enforcement, thus less money spent on that, so more spent on wildlife habitat etc.

The herd will benefit greatly I'm sure. I mean it will take the focus off of a specific age class. Who is gonna take too much time to look for the big buck when it will take about a week or less to fill the quota. Most will shoot the first buck they find. Maybe in some units we could even go either sex, gawd knows we need to take out some does in some of these mule deer units to balance out that buck/doe ratio. Speaking of time, there will be less pressure on the herd without all of those seasons. That too should help.

I'm sure there more that I'm not thinking of....maybe some help here Tri....I think you're onto something. It DOESN’T matter how we do it...

This sounds like a winner, does it not?
 
"If not list 5 hunting laws that are not based on fair chase."

1. No explosive projectiles.
2. No shooting off a public road.
3. No Killing bears.
4. No Killing songbirds.
5. No license required for children under 16.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of game laws that don't have anything to do with "fair chase". If laws were written around fair chase why would they vary from state to state. Why would it be fair chase to use a scoped muzzleloader in Utah but 200 yards over the state line in Colorado THAT'S NOT FAIR CHASE. Fair chase doesn't make laws. Fair chase didn't save your animals.

"That’s going to be my new quote."

Perfect ChuckD. Now go have fun and hunt and quit worrying about what may or may not be going on in the other camp. Its a lot more fun. Trust me.
 
Tri state,

Here is what Boone and Crocket has to say:

FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

HUNTER ETHICS
Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of supporting the conservation of natural resources. Modern hunting involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population, known as sustainable use. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting, which includes the following tenets:

  1. Obey all applicable laws and regulations.
  2. Respect the customs of the locale where the hunting occurs.
  3. Exercise a personal code of behavior that reflects favorably on your abilities and sensibilities as a hunter.
  4. Attain and maintain the skills necessary to make the kill as certain and quick as possible.
  5. Behave in a way that will bring no dishonor to either the hunter, the hunted, or the environment.
  6. Recognize that these tenets are intended to enhance the hunter's experience of the relationship between predator and prey, which is one of the most fundamental relationships of humans and their environment.


I think what a lot of people have a problem with (including me), is the simple fact that people hunting with a large posse affords the hunter (or in many cases shooter) with an improper advantage over the animal.

Also, under the heading of Hunter Ethics, B&C talks about a one-to-one relationship with the quarry. How does a giant posse “enhance the hunter’s experience of the relationship between predator and prey”?

I have no problem with a couple family members hunting together or hunting with a guide,
but when multitudes of people get together and focus on a single animal and then use all kinds of legal technology (trail cameras, 2 way radios, cells phones, gps coordinates, low flying aircraft, thermal imaging, etc.), there comes a time when the kill is no longer fair chase. The pursuit of money and fame has caused quite the strain on ethics and fair chase. Where should the line be drawn? How many spotters is too many? How much technology is too much? These questions based on legality are all personal in nature; I wonder what you think?

To summarize, the kill can be totally legal but not ethical. You already know all of this stuff.
 
I know what B&C says. They ain't the law.

Having an advantage over the animal is what defines us. It is what places us at the top of the food chain. You ain't killing deer tooth and nail so recognize you have a mental advantage and use tools to complete the hunt. That's reality.
 
Not the answer that I expected from you. I just assumed that each person has a limit as to how much manpower/technology is too much.
 
Sure they do. The problem is every person's limit is different. At the same time we are supposed to keep this a free country and stop thinking we need to control when they do things differently than us.


Look, I want you to delve deeper into why you feel you should be able to tell others how to hunt. I'm not attacking you but I feel you realize there is something you might be ashamed of if everyone knew the truth of your motives.
 
huntindad4 said:
I'll play...

First, fair chase has affected all of us as hunters.

How? Before the laws imposed on hunting in the name of fair chase, game populations were going in the tank, no? So the introduction of fair chase positively affected North American hunting and hunters.

As for my statement of ALL hunting laws being based on fair chase, you are correct not all are. But by far MOST are. Aside from limits on amount of game taken.

If not list 5 hunting laws that are not based on fair chase. If you find that too easy list 10. Out of the hundreds of laws governing how we take game.

The only place I listed adjustments for taking game was my proposal for no laws on method of take just sell an unlimited number of tags and strictly enforce a quota.

I would add to it though. Sell the tags in July and folks just start hunting. However they want. Keep selling tags. A guy can kill as many as he wants, till the unit quota fills.

This will make the opportunity folks happy, yes? We all get a tag.

The trophy hunter should be happy. He has a tag and some time to get it done. How much time? Eh, who knows?

Every faction of the how to get it done crowds should be ok with it. They can do it "their way", shouldn't matter to anyone how else someone else gets it done.

Fish and wildlife should be THRILLED with the plan. Only the number of animals that they want harvested will be harvested, yet they will sell WAY more tags (unlimited remember?). It should require less enforcement, thus less money spent on that, so more spent on wildlife habitat etc.

The herd will benefit greatly I'm sure. I mean it will take the focus off of a specific age class. Who is gonna take too much time to look for the big buck when it will take about a week or less to fill the quota. Most will shoot the first buck they find. Maybe in some units we could even go either sex, gawd knows we need to take out some does in some of these mule deer units to balance out that buck/doe ratio. Speaking of time, there will be less pressure on the herd without all of those seasons. That too should help.

I'm sure there more that I'm not thinking of....maybe some help here Tri....I think you're onto something. It DOESN’T matter how we do it...

This sounds like a winner, does it not?
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You knocked this out of the park, great points.
“It doesn’t matter how we do it” -Tri
 
Tristate said:
Sure they do. The problem is every person's limit is different. At the same time we are supposed to keep this a free country and stop thinking we need to control when they do things differently than us.


Look, I want you to delve deeper into why you feel you should be able to tell others how to hunt. I'm not attacking you but I feel you realize there is something you might be ashamed of if everyone knew the truth of your motives.
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I am 100% certain I have stated my top three reasons. I am also not telling anyone how to hunt, for the record.
 
Mono y mono. Pretty much the only way it means much to me.

That said, I have used an outfitter before and probably will again. But not one with 15 scouts. Just one guide and me, with me matching him step for step

And if you have a big family and they all want to join in, I see no problem with that. Especially in Utah, hunting opportunities are very limited. So if my brother/cousin/uncle ect. were to draw an LE tag, I would be inclined to tag along.
 
This whole fair chase thing is such a grey area. I personally feel if someone kills a big game animal within the law, then I have no problem with whatever method it took to get it done. I'm usually not worried about how others hunt and I just hunt how I see it. Now if someone hunts outside the law, then they are cheating the system and sometimes other hunters. Then fair chase is probably compromised.
 
ridgetops said:
This whole fair chase thing is such a grey area. I personally feel if someone kills a big game animal within the law, then I have no problem with whatever method it took to get it done. I'm usually not worried about how others hunt and I just hunt how I see it. Now if someone hunts outside the law, then they are cheating the system and sometimes other hunters. Then fair chase is probably compromised.
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So when you draw your once in a lifetime hunt, and there are people on every ridge top, not with a tag, but who’s job it is to locate and sit on a big buck/bull with a radio or phone, that’s not a problem for you? When every waterhole has 30 trail cams and while you are sitting there hunting, not only is your picture being taken but there is a constant stream of people coming to check their pics? When you have the animal you want located and are stalking it, and a scout/ non-hunter strolls thru the woods and spoils the stalk

Oh well, as long as it’s legal and I get my trophy on the wall. Can anyone recommend a good taxidermist????

There is no doubt in my mind there are things that are legal that aren’t ethical or “fair chase”. But that is JMO
 
This is where the business of hunting is the issue.

A few trail cams some dude sets up, not really a problem.

Outfitters with hundreds of them, a problem.

Hunting under an apple tree, not a problem.

Outfitters with semi loads, everywhere, a problem

We keep talking about how we should regulate ourselves. But that doesnt happen when a part of our community has a job that encourages them to push every boundary, exploit every Grey area, etc in pursuit of inches as quickly as possible to get the next guy in camp.
 
txhunter58 said:
So when you draw your once in a lifetime hunt, and there are people on every ridge top, not with a tag, but who’s job it is to locate and sit on a big buck/bull with a radio or phone, that’s not a problem for you? When every waterhole has 30 trail cams and while you are sitting there hunting, not only is your picture being taken but there is a constant stream of people coming to check their pics? When you have the animal you want located and are stalking it, and a scout/ non-hunter strolls thru the woods and spoils the stalk

Oh well, as long as it’s legal and I get my trophy on the wall. Can anyone recommend a good taxidermist????

There is no doubt in my mind there are things that are legal that aren’t ethical or “fair chase”. But that is JMO
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There's a whole lot of hyperbole in that statement. If someone intentionally interferes with my hunt, then I'll be pressing charges. I've handled heavy hunting pressure all my life. Hell, there was 12 other hunters hunting the same buck within a half mile of me when I killed my biggest buck to date and that was on a Tuesday. I can't imagine how crowded it was on opening weekend. Stop blaming others and go hunt harder.
 
hossblur said:
This is where the business of hunting is the issue.

A few trail cams some dude sets up, not really a problem.

Outfitters with hundreds of them, a problem.

Hunting under an apple tree, not a problem.

Outfitters with semi loads, everywhere, a problem

We keep talking about how we should regulate ourselves. But that doesnt happen when a part of our community has a job that encourages them to push every boundary, exploit every Grey area, etc in pursuit of inches as quickly as possible to get the next guy in camp.
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If you don't like these practices, get the laws changed. I wouldn't mind if some of these things get more of a handle on.
 
The B&C rules really are the best outline for fair chase . end of story.

That said, money always buys something better for those who can afford it. be it a better house , better car or a governors tag . or even 235 slackjaws posing as guides who want to target one animal.

Part of me says it shouldn't be this way, but the capitalist part of me says this is how it has to be unless a valid argument to change the law can be made, and I don't see how that's possible. so it comes down to your ethics and your ability as hunter , which are both normally deficient in the same people.
 
ridgetops said:
There's a whole lot of hyperbole in that statement. If someone intentionally interferes with my hunt, then I'll be pressing charges. I've handled heavy hunting pressure all my life. Hell, there was 12 other hunters hunting the same buck within a half mile of me when I killed my biggest buck to date and that was on a Tuesday. I can't imagine how crowded it was on opening weekend. Stop blaming others and go hunt harder.
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It has nothing to do with blaming others or hunting harder. It doesn’t even have to do with if I am successful on my hunt. I could kill the biggest animal of my life and still not enjoy the hunt under the conditions I described. We obviously have different definitions of “fair chase” and a quality hunt. So be it
 
So if you don't like how someone else hunts while you are hunting suddenly your hunt is less fun and you decide they don't hunt "fair chase"???????
 
txhunter58 said:
It has nothing to do with blaming others or hunting harder. It doesn’t even have to do with if I am successful on my hunt. I could kill the biggest animal of my life and still not enjoy the hunt under the conditions I described. We obviously have different definitions of “fair chase” and a quality hunt. So be it
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Don't hunt in the high traffic areas. Pretty simple. There's thousands of acres on each LE unit that the guides don't even touch come hunting season. Focus on those areas and it sounds like you will have a great hunt.
 
Ok. Now I get it. Let them dictate where I hunt.

I suppose there must be an online resource somewhere where us out of staters with a once in lifetime LE hunt can find where not to go??

Let me be clear. If someone wants to go shoot a monster on a high fence operation, I have no problem with that. It’s not fair chase but I can’t see making it illegal without infringing or other hunters.

And yes, we may eventually be able to make trail cams illegal, which I think would be good. But what the outfitters are doing with large numbers of scouts is going to be a loophole that will prob always be legal. Doesn’t mean it is fair chase.

But be careful what you wish for. Let’s say you have time and you scout out a really trophy animal for your hunt in an area where outfitters rarely go, but somehow an outfitter finds out about it and their hoard of scouts are there to keep tabs on him and spoils your opportunity. Prob just move to the next drainage without a sending any bad thoughts their way
 
txhunter58 said:
Ok. Now I get it. Let them dictate where I hunt.

I suppose there must be an online resource somewhere where us out of staters with a once in lifetime LE hunt can find where not to go??

Let me be clear. If someone wants to go shoot a monster on a high fence operation, I have no problem with that. It’s not fair chase but I can’t see making it illegal without infringing or other hunters.

And yes, we may eventually be able to make trail cams illegal, which I think would be good. But what the outfitters are doing with large numbers of scouts is going to be a loophole that will prob always be legal. Doesn’t mean it is fair chase.

But be careful what you wish for. Let’s say you have time and you scout out a really trophy animal for your hunt in an area where outfitters rarely go, but somehow an outfitter finds out about it and their hoard of scouts are there to keep tabs on him and spoils your opportunity. Prob just move to the next drainage without a sending any bad thoughts their way
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That's what my Dad used to say is life in the big city. He would never say it's unfair chase, however.

He might say that a man carrying a high powered rife with the capability of delivering a deadly projectile 500 yards with supreme accuracy is unfair chase.
 
eelgrass said:
That's what my Dad used to say is life in the big city. He would never say it's unfair chase, however.

He might say that a man carrying a high powered rife with the capability of delivering a deadly projectile 500 yards with supreme accuracy is unfair chase.
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Or results in less wounded deer hurt by those who went before us with wildly inaccurate lever action rifles and projectiles in their day....
 
ridgetops said:
Don't hunt in the high traffic areas. Pretty simple. There's thousands of acres on each LE unit that the guides don't even touch come hunting season. Focus on those areas and it sounds like you will have a great hunt.
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At least where I hunt, the areas that have low tags and corresponding low draw odds are the areas where you see one guy with a tag and 5-7 others there to help them. So, it's not about high traffic areas. It becomes a "high traffic" area because people bring all their buddies with them to help them hunt....pretty sad actually. If you waited 14-22 years to draw one of these tags I don't think you'd be very happy to find that even though they only gave out 30 tags but yet there are 100's of people out "looking" for their friend.
 

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