2021 Mule Deer Plan

elkassassin · Nov 19, 2020

I Haven't Listened to it Yet!

We Are Dumb,Huh?

He's Right!

We Keep Buying/Applying for Tags To Hunt what should be some Quality Hunting!

TARDville Will Produce Top Quality Animals when Managed Properly!

When Not Managed Properly,Well Here the HELL We Are!

cantkillathing · Nov 19, 2020

I cant wait in 10 years when we drop the deer population numbers again someone will say that its ok because we have more data now and we know more now. I think I seen it in the good years, but the reality is the guys in the 50s and 60s seen what the potential is and we keep dropping that potential and disbelieving the good ole days

elkassassin · Nov 19, 2020

OK Guys!

You've got My Blood Pressure Up again!

Should be a Great Nights Sleep again tonight!

Carry On!

slamdunk · Nov 19, 2020

elkassassin said:
So?

Somebody above Mentioned Overlapping some More Hunts?

SWEET GEEZUS!

These overlapping hunts are a joke, i completely agree.

Back in the day, we had 3 deer hunts, and three deer hunts only.
Archery
Rifle
Muzzleloader

Having said that, "back in the day" we had 200k hunters scattered out for those three seasons, today we have 90k scattered throughout twice as many hunts as then.

200k over 3 hunts vs. 90k divided amongst 5 or 6 hunts.
What has happened??

slamdunk · Nov 19, 2020

cantkillathing said:
Im sorry folks but the biggest problems with our wildlife, and I think deer, is we hunt way to much, we have way to many days in the field pushing deer around. I doubt there is 1 week in the year that they are not pressured. In January we are out looking at them looking for the best shed hunt area, also hounds chasing lions which will chase deer, by February people our out looking for sheds, by march/April shed season/ Bear hunt moving things around. May/June/july end of shed and bear, but know we are setting up game cameras all of the mountain, scouting. August/September/October we are hunting them. November/December/January we have cow elk hunts going on that subsequently we chase deer around as well. I wonder when these deer get a rest, its no wonder they are becoming urban deer at least they can rest in the city..

It's definitely plays a roll in it, no doubt about it.
Maybe not so much in our far southern units where winters are light, but for the north side of 3/4's of the state it does.

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

He's Right!

I Don't Get it!

I Don't Get How A Herd Could be so Mis-managed for So Long!

cantkillathing said:
Hey Bess did you listen to the NE RAC board, there is a guy on there that says we are dumb, and all the old RAC and WB, and us older people just dont get it, not exact words but about right...someone needs to check his koolaid

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

And Notice I Didn't Use the 'F Word' in Post # 106!

But it was Hard Not To!

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

OK!

Let's use Founder as an Example!

He Hunts & Shoots Good Bucks every Year Right?

Let's Ask Founder How Many Big Bucks He's Taken in Utah in the Last 20 Years?

Even Wyoming & Colorado isn't Looking Good in Future Years!

But They've Been Way better than TARDville for many,many years,but even they are Slacking!

Elkslayer2015 · Nov 20, 2020

slamdunk said:
Great post!
This has been brought up by a few people before, but we are still scratching our heads.

Cutting buck tags does not save deer, it only changes the success rates and how much dust you'll be eating.
Lowering 500 tags off the Beaver unit will not save 500 bucks, it won't even save 100 or even 50.
Success rates are simply too low.

We have reduced 100k tags, yet still have 100k less bucks (hypothetical numbers of course)

Cutting doe tags creates deer.

We have almost half the permits and hunters in 2020 as we did in the early 90's, yet arguably far less deer in almost every GS unit.

One thing we all agree on is today's efficiency.
Weaponry is light years ahead of what it was 30 years ago.
Accessibility is superior to 20 years ago with our transportation toys.
More hard-core hunters (including guides and Outfitters) these days, thanks to social media and the hunger to create names for themselves for the sake of money, popularity or "follows" & "likes".

So are those types of hunters to blame for declining bucks?
No, but I do believe they skim the cream off the top of the milk, yes absolutely.
(I still very much disagree on some of their tactics on our public lands, but that's a whole different topic.)

The average Joe hunter has more impact on bucks than the "elitists" by far.

I still truly believe our bigger problem is habitat issues, especially on winter ranges.
Extremely high vehicle collision mortalities with more and faster cars on our roads today.
Poor spring and summer feed conditions due to several years of less than par water and overgrazing of free range livestock when feed conditions are poor.
Predators.
Predators.
Predators.
Did I mention Predators?
Low fawn recruitment and everything mentioned effects that.

Great post You hit the nail on the head Slam...

deerkiller · Nov 20, 2020

highfastflyer said:
If you want deer numbers to increase you have to go after Cow elk aggressively.

Utah has done this statewide. They declare war against them almost yearly. But the deer keep declining.

public grazing.
Predators.
Winter range.

address those issues and I bet the nose dive stops.

Elkslayer2015 · Nov 20, 2020

elkassassin said:
What's My Thoughts on Scopes on MuzzleLoaders?

Bows that Are Lethal at 100+ Yards!

Rifles Wounding Ssshhitt at 1,000+ Yards!

It's Every Weapon Type!

Not Just Scopes on SmokePoles!

deerkiller said:
Utah has done this statewide. They declare war against them almost yearly. But the deer keep declining.

public grazing.
Predators.
Winter range.

address those issues and I bet the nose dive stops.

I get it public grazing but you do realize that is not the problem out here in the basin they have cut grazing permits a ton and they have cut them all over the state will it help maybe a little it goes way much further than that trust me I have well over 800 head of cows in my area each year and they have cut way back over the years it's a small area I have tons of doe's just no bucks.

We need to address these item's first

#1 Vehicle collision/climate change
#2 predator's it's a big thing
#3 Winter range it's a big thing
#4 Technology is a big thing
#5 Atv Side x Side's and new roads a lot of deer get killed from the roads..

These 5 things is the problem

I use to complain about the DWR I realize that 4 of these big problems are caused by humans and hunters has really nothing to do with the DWR....

deerkiller · Nov 20, 2020

Elkslayer2015 said:
I get it public grazing but you do realize that is not the problem out here in the basin they have cut grazing permits a ton and they have cut them all over the state will it help maybe a little it goes way much further than that trust me I have well over 800 head of cows in my area each year and they have cut way back over the years it's a small area I have tons of doe's just no bucks.

We need to address these item's first

#1 Vehicle collision/climate change
#2 predator's it's a big thing
#3 Winter range it's a big thing
#4 Technology is a big thing
#5 Atv Side x Side's and new roads a lot of deer get killed from the roads..

These 5 things is the problem

I use to complain about the DWR I realize that 4 of these big problems are caused by humans and hunters has really nothing to do with the DWR....

Where are these new roads? All I ever find are old roads that are getting more and more restrictive, if not closed down entirely. I don’t see many SxS and ATVs having much success for hunting. Rarely have I seen something killed from the road by people using this method.

public grazing is a huge issue state wide. They try to dictate how many naturally occurring animals that WE are allowed to have on our public land that compete with their cattle. I’ve seen many times during the WB meetings where these cattle moochers step up and say that there’s no feed for their cows in this area and more animals need to be killed to allow their private animals to have sufficient feed on public resources. We are adjusting management numbers on several units this year for deer, because the range conditions aren’t there to support cattle AND wildlife. Covy states it several times in his presentation. If we don’t have the range to support both, guess which one needs to be cut first? It shouldn’t be the deer, elk, bison and pronghorn!

I agree with your technology one, but only for selfish reasons. Killing bucks isn’t herd issues we are facing. Limiting weapon capabilities only allows more deer to live and get bigger. People are mad that more decent bucks are getting killed every year, making it harder every year to kill big bucks in future years. That’s it. It isn’t beneficial to the entire population in the long run.

what climate change are you talking about? 1 year we have record snow fall, the next is a drought. That’s been the cycle in Utah since white guys showed up here. It’s nothing new.

Elkslayer2015 · Nov 20, 2020

Have you seen a change in ATVs and side-by-side population in the last 10 years and if you haven’t good on you you’re in a good area but it has quadrupled in 10 years.

The Forest service goes and close roads and people just drive around them or pulls the post out of the ground because they’re too lazy to get out and hike and go hunt.

climate change look it up we’ve been in a drought for a long time Just because we had a few good winters doesn’t mean we’re not out of the woods pull up all the western states Wyoming Colorado Idaho Nevada etc we’re all in a drought the climate has changed ask anyone on here will tell you the same thing....

So they pulled the cows off early September 12th this year I believe because there was no feed and they want to give the grass a chance to come back well guess what it didn’t we had no precipitation at all now would that help not having the cows up there maybe very little The feed had lost all its nutrients in it but the last time I checked cows don’t eat sagebrush.
My point is if there was more cattle on the landscape back in the day, they have cut grazing permits a lot since the 90’s and they also cut deer permits a ton so yeah I have really hard time anyone telling me it’s a cattle problem.
Is just more of a nuisance problem for hunters trust me I know I hunt with them too....

slamdunk · Nov 20, 2020

@deerkiller
Great post.

On the ATV's, what i was mostly referring to is moreso recreational riders.
The entire middle of Utah has the Piute Trail running through some of our best GS units in the state, Beaver, Monroe, Panguitch, Fish Lake, Dutton, just to name a few.
These units get pounded non stop from April through November with thousands of riders.
These have got to have some impact on animals through stress and a multitude of habitat damage.
Another ATV disaster is American Fork canyon.
On any day you will see dozens or even hundreds of RZR/CanAm types literally tearing up not only main roads but they have turned back country side roads into 4 star "advanced only" off road rock climbing roads.
Trail bikes now venturing further into our back country in places only traveled by foot or horseback.
We didn't have these things 30 years ago, not to the amount we see today.

As far as drought goes, yes Utah is a desert and we have experienced these swing cycles since the beginning of time.
But it does cycle, and we are on a dry cycle and have been for several years now.
One good year over 100% can't make up for 2 dryer years before and after.
Our ground water is all but gone this year, even a deep snowpack will get immediately sucked up by June if we don't get massive amounts of spring rains. Most of the states prime feed habitat was as dry as corn flakes by June, and offered minimal nutrition to big game, which puts them in poor physical condition going into winter.
This also plays a huge role in doe pregnancy and fawn recruitment.

I totally understand what Covy is saying about adjustments to the "objectives" to better match the range and habitat issues, it's just a number shuffle on paper, not an all out deer slaughter like some believe.
If we want to have higher deer numbers, we've go to manage the land to support them first.
That task alone will take a multitude of factors to go into play.
Things are happening but it's an huge task that will take years of various resources to make and see improvements and reap benefits from.

I hope everyone is noticing the massive high fences going in around the state in various locations.....that in itself is an epic move and is exciting to see happening.

deerkiller · Nov 20, 2020

Elkslayer2015 said:
Have you seen a change in ATVs and side-by-side population in the last 10 years and if you haven’t good on you you’re in a good area but it has quadrupled in 10 years.

Not every atv and SxS on the mountain is driven by hunters. I know it’s hard to understand, I certainly don’t, but a lot of people like to do it for fun! It just so happens that the more pleasant times of the year to go out and ride is also the same time the fall hunts are taking place. I personally haven’t seen an increase in SxS and ATVs on the units i hunt. But I hunt areas that don’t have roads on every ridge or up every canyon. You can also change areas you like to hunt if you don’t like what you are seeing. There’s a unit in Utah that will fit all hunting and access types. Pick another one and try it. Plenty of options available.

slamdunk · Nov 20, 2020

deerkiller said:
Not every atv and SxS on the mountain is driven by hunters. I know it’s hard to understand, I certainly don’t, but a lot of people like to do it for fun! It just so happens that the more pleasant times of the year to go out and ride is also the same time the fall hunts are taking place. I personally haven’t seen an increase in SxS and ATVs on the units i hunt. But I hunt areas that don’t have roads on every ridge or up every canyon. You can also change areas you like to hunt if you don’t like what you are seeing. There’s a unit in Utah that will fit all hunting and access types. Pick another one and try it. Plenty of options available.

I agree with your comment on this, but I think the point is being missed.

Our units are seeing far more leisure recreational ATV'S now than ever before.
Back in the 90's we didn't see hundreds of ATV's daily on the Beaver exploring every 2 track road on the mountain for 8 months straight.

Yes, of course we can all find places that don't see this type of activity, but the point trying to be made is that we didn't used to have to do that.
I've hunted the Beaver in the 90's when there were far more hunters AND far more deer.
Today there are less hunters and less deer....why??

Elkslayer2015 · Nov 20, 2020

slamdunk said:
@deerkiller
Great post.

On the ATV's, what i was mostly referring to is moreso recreational riders.
The entire middle of Utah has the Piute Trail running through some of our best GS units in the state, Beaver, Monroe, Panguitch, Fish Lake, Dutton, just to name a few.
These units get pounded non stop from April through November with thousands of riders.
These have got to have some impact on animals through stress and a multitude of habitat damage.
Another ATV disaster is American Fork canyon.
On any day you will see dozens or even hundreds of RZR/CanAm types literally tearing up not only main roads but they have turned back country side roads into 4 star "advanced only" off road rock climbing roads.
Trail bikes now venturing further into our back country in places only traveled by foot or horseback.
We didn't have these things 30 years ago, not to the amount we see today.

As far as drought goes, yes Utah is a desert and we have experienced these swing cycles since the beginning of time.
But it does cycle, and we are on a dry cycle and have been for several years now.
One good year over 100% can't make up for 2 dryer years before and after.
Our ground water is all but gone this year, even a deep snowpack will get immediately sucked up by June if we don't get massive amounts of spring rains. Most of the states prime feed habitat was as dry as corn flakes by June, and offered minimal nutrition to big game, which puts them in poor physical condition going into winter.
This also plays a huge role in doe pregnancy and fawn recruitment.

I totally understand what Covy is saying about adjustments to the "objectives" to better match the range and habitat issues, it's just a number shuffle on paper, not an all out deer slaughter like some believe.
If we want to have higher deer numbers, we've go to manage the land to support them first.
That task alone will take a multitude of factors to go into play.
Things are happening but it's an huge task that will take years of various resources to make and see improvements and reap benefits from.

I hope everyone is noticing the massive high fences going in around the state in various locations.....that in itself is an epic move and is exciting to see happening.

Slam your right there is a lot of recreational I used to hunt down south on Beaver i know what you are talking about down there...
we used to own 600 acres in diamond fork canyon and now there’s an ATV trail that runs all over that mountain up there....
That’s what I mean by human caused
So it could be hunters it could be recreational I do see hunters in my neck of the woods out here in the basin make new roads or try to make new roads and I also see a lot of these deer harvested from these roads.
We all have a choice on what we do if we all choose technology as hunters we will have a problem...

This really got me thinking this past muzzleloader elk season I had a one power scope on one gun,which is a Walmart gun I let my son use and I could of put a scope on my TC gun but I wanted a challenge and it cost me a few bulls and the crazy thing is my boy at 16 killed a 3 point bull opening day and then he killed his cow on the last day of the muzzleloader hunt
Granted the longest shot was 80 yards but if he can do it then anyone can do it with a 1 power scope.
My closest in counter was 90 yards it was to dark in the trees it was hard to see which one was the bull if I had a scope he would of been dead the others where out 220 yards in the trees I didn’t take the shot because I wasn’t comfortable in shooting that far open sites but it’s all good our freezer is full and we built awesome memories with my family and friends.
As far as muzzleloaders go
I made the choice to not to run scopes but I’m with Elkassasin they need to be banned there should be no scopes on muzzleloaders period

I had dedicated Hunter for three years this is my last year I put in the time on that mountain Thank goodness my wife is understanding I passed up multiple bucks the first two years I did shoot at one with my bow but couldn’t connect so here’s a picture of the Buck I harvested this year And the only buck I harvested in three years 418 yard shot 160 inch 4 point so 30 years ago that was a far shot..

We all really need to stop and rethink what we’re really truly doing at this day and age what we could do to help with our deer herds no I’m not saying technology is killing off all our deer herds yes it’s killing off all are mature bucks and bulls.

Deerkiller I agree I could switch spots and go back down south but this is my home I love being able to get off work and go hunt the evening’s I’m 20 minutes away from hunting deer and elk lots have changed over 30 years...
Hopefully this all makes sense I’m talk texting didn’t have time to look through it?

lostinOregon · Nov 20, 2020

grizzly said:
Ummm, Serengeti of the West!

That's what they keep telling us.

We give these groups more tags and money than every western state COMBINED.

Does anybody think our herds are better than every state combined? Are we better than even the majority of states? Are we better than any of them?

Where are the results? Where's the payday?

There might be a payday, but you have a Peayday laughing all the way to the bank

Tikka · Nov 20, 2020

In no particular order...
24/7/365 pressure
Drive anywhere through deer country in the fall particularly and and count road kill
Over grazing everywhere/ especially horses
High dollar optics/scopes everyone is a Chris Kyle nowadays
Did I mention 24/7/365 pressure and I payed 30 +/- thousand for this SXS I can take it wherever I want
Instafame influencers!!!!
Selling your soul or for lack of better words selling the soul of a buck for 15 seconds of name dropping on some instafame influencers social accounts....

I could go on...

Tikka · Nov 20, 2020

Ohh and just one more ... selling gps coordinates of bucks!!!

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

Hey Tikka!

You're about 10-12% in to a "HELL-RIGHT"!

Tikka said:
Ohh and just one more ... selling gps coordinates of bucks!!!

grizzly · Nov 20, 2020

Just wait for the next few months while Mike Lee and Trump push through Lee's new bill allowing bikes in Wilderness Areas...

Trump administration backs 2 bills affecting trails in Utah wilderness

The Trump administration on Wednesday gave qualified support to two bills by Utah’s senators that seek to expand use of trails in current wilderness areas — which they seek to push through Congress and before it soon adjourns for the year.

www.sltrib.com

There will even be less ground to get away from crowds and the herds will be pushed by hunters and recreational riders alike.

slamdunk · Nov 20, 2020

Hey Bessy, word on the street is you are selling these shirts for Christmas!?

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

I Am PUNK!

And Anybody that Shot a PISSCUTTER This year Pays Triple!

elkassassin · Nov 20, 2020

No Them Ain't the Only 5 Reasons!

And WTF are You or anybody-else gonna do about Climate Change?

You Just Gave the DWR one More Excuse with that!

I Like the rest of Your List!

Now Post 45 More Reasons Why!

Elkslayer2015 said:
I get it public grazing but you do realize that is not the problem out here in the basin they have cut grazing permits a ton and they have cut them all over the state will it help maybe a little it goes way much further than that trust me I have well over 800 head of cows in my area each year and they have cut way back over the years it's a small area I have tons of doe's just no bucks.

We need to address these item's first

#1 Vehicle collision/climate change
#2 predator's it's a big thing
#3 Winter range it's a big thing
#4 Technology is a big thing
#5 Atv Side x Side's and new roads a lot of deer get killed from the roads..

These 5 things is the problem

I use to complain about the DWR I realize that 4 of these big problems are caused by humans and hunters has really nothing to do with the DWR....

highfastflyer · Nov 20, 2020

“In general, we know deer tend to not like elk,” said Kevin Monteith, a UW professor and lead researcher on the project. The West’s leading researcher on ungulate research, primarily in the Wyoming Range, has widely published on how elk have flourished even in drought years but deer have dropped over 40% just in the past decade. If you want to increase deer numbers you need to heavily harvest cow elk. He sums up the mule deer decline well in this podcast. If you want to skip forward to about the 20 minute mark he talks specifically about elk and deer competing for the same forage. https://www.nwfoutdoors.org/e/kevin-montieth-and-the-science-of-mule-deer/

deerkiller · Nov 21, 2020

grizzly said:
Just wait for the next few months while Mike Lee and Trump push through Lee's new bill allowing bikes in Wilderness Areas...

Trump administration backs 2 bills affecting trails in Utah wilderness

The Trump administration on Wednesday gave qualified support to two bills by Utah’s senators that seek to expand use of trails in current wilderness areas — which they seek to push through Congress and before it soon adjourns for the year.

www.sltrib.com

There will even be less ground to get away from crowds and the herds will be pushed by hunters and recreational riders alike.

Everything else is trumps fault, might as well make over crowded mountains his fault as well... ?

grizzly · Nov 21, 2020

deerkiller said:
Everything else is trumps fault, might as well make over crowded mountains his fault as well... ?

This isn't about politics, it's about public land, hunting access, and herd impacts.

If any group or individual is working to push through a bill allowing mechanized equipment in Wilderness Areas, then, yeah, they deserve to be called out for it.

How long before that's expanded to wheelchair access after a lawsuit says if one wheeled item is okay, then why not another? Lawyers have tried for years to force wheelchair accessible ramps and trails in Wilderness Areas under ADA but have failed. I'm certain that would change once we have bike trails.

Heck, I'm sure E-bikes will be cruising in our Wilderness Areas too. Whether they're allowed or not won't matter, they're already on non-motorized USFS trails where they're not supposed to be.

Once the floodgates of bikes in Wilderness Areas opens, there's no going back.

deerkiller · Nov 21, 2020

grizzly said:
This isn't about politics, it's about public land, hunting access, and herd impacts.

If any group or individual is working to push through a bill allowing mechanized equipment in Wilderness Areas, then, yeah, they deserve to be called out for it.

How long before that's expanded to wheelchair access after a lawsuit says if one wheeled item is okay, then why not another? Lawyers have tried for years to force wheelchair accessible ramps and trails in Wilderness Areas under ADA but have failed. I'm certain that would change once we have bike trails.

Heck, I'm sure E-bikes will be cruising in our Wilderness Areas too. Whether they're allowed or not won't matter, they're already on non-motorized USFS trails where they're not supposed to be.

Once the floodgates of bikes in Wilderness Areas opens, there's no going back.

Heaven forbid we make it easier, for disabled people who rely on wheelchairs to get around, to get out and enjoy our public land in the mountains. What a shame that would be

grizzly · Nov 21, 2020

deerkiller said:
Heaven forbid we make it easier, for disabled people who rely on wheelchairs to get around, to get out and enjoy our public land in the mountains. What a shame that would be

Sure. Why leave anywhere untouched by human hands, let's just pave the whole damn thing.

"An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions"

deerkiller · Nov 21, 2020

grizzly said:
Sure. Why leave anywhere untouched by human hands, let's just pave the whole damn thing.

"An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions"

There is still plenty of wilderness square miles only accessible by foot or horse these days. A large percentage of this ground also rarely sees much, if any at all, human traffic just a few days a year. To be against additions to public trail heads to increase opportunities for disabled is about as unsportsmanlike as a hunter can be. These people are confined to a chair for the rest of their lives and you’re against them being allowed on a marked trail to enjoy what little of the outdoors that is available to them? Wow.

elkassassin · Nov 21, 2020

What Gets Me is How Most people Believe We have just one Problem with the Suffering Deer Herd!

Each Year another BS Tactic will be Tried & We know before it's Tried it Ain't a gonna work!

The Changes would Be So Drastic to somewhat Bring it Back that Most TARDS Would be Crying like Babies!

48 Years & Counting!

grizzly · Nov 21, 2020

deerkiller said:
There is still plenty of wilderness square miles only accessible by foot or horse these days. A large percentage of this ground also rarely sees much, if any at all, human traffic just a few days a year. To be against additions to public trail heads to increase opportunities for disabled is about as unsportsmanlike as a hunter can be. These people are confined to a chair for the rest of their lives and you’re against them being allowed on a marked trail to enjoy what little of the outdoors that is available to them? Wow.

This bill specifically only references dedicated Wilderness Areas. Thankfully wise men many years ago realized somebody with your mindset would come along and want to run pavement, two track roads, E-bikes trails, and gondolas up our last remaining true backcountry and had the wherewithal to set aside certain areas to remain untouched.

As the enabling act for Wilderness Areas states, "without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions..."

If you had your way and Wilderness Areas were made more accessible to all people of all abilities, we might as well have Wal-Mart scooters stationed at our most pristine places. There would be no Wilderness Areas left for our grandchildren to escape into the vastness of the wilds.

Wilderness is something that needs to be protected more now than ever before. Every one of us will eventually no longer be able to access the backcountry, but we need to leave it for our grandchildren.

To paraphrase your line... Fighting against that for the greed of today is "as unsportsmanlike as a hunter can be".

highfastflyer · Nov 21, 2020

grizzly said:
This isn't about politics, it's about public land, hunting access, and herd impacts.

If any group or individual is working to push through a bill allowing mechanized equipment in Wilderness Areas, then, yeah, they deserve to be called out for it.

How long before that's expanded to wheelchair access after a lawsuit says if one wheeled item is okay, then why not another? Lawyers have tried for years to force wheelchair accessible ramps and trails in Wilderness Areas under ADA but have failed. I'm certain that would change once we have bike trails.

Heck, I'm sure E-bikes will be cruising in our Wilderness Areas too. Whether they're allowed or not won't matter, they're already on non-motorized USFS trails where they're not supposed to be.

Once the floodgates of bikes in Wilderness Areas opens, there's no going back.

Anyone could always petition the Forest Director of that particular wilderness area and get an exemption. I was in the Teton Wilderness a few years back and heard a generator running at night. Next morning I passed by an Outfitter and asked him about it. One of his guests had severe sleep apnea and required a CPAP machine. He had applied several months prior and been given an exemption. Many Wilderness areas allow Canoes already, depends upon the particular area and rules and exemptions are sometimes granted.

deerkiller · Nov 21, 2020

grizzly said:
This bill specifically only references dedicated Wilderness Areas. Thankfully wise men many years ago realized somebody with your mindset would come along and want to run pavement, two track roads, E-bikes trails, and gondolas up our last remaining true backcountry and had the wherewithal to set aside certain areas to remain untouched.

As the enabling act for Wilderness Areas states, "without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions..."

If you had your way and Wilderness Areas were made more accessible to all people of all abilities, we might as well have Wal-Mart scooters stationed at our most pristine places. There would be no Wilderness Areas left for our grandchildren to escape into the vastness of the wilds.

Wilderness is something that needs to be protected more now than ever before. Every one of us will eventually no longer be able to access the backcountry, but we need to leave it for our grandchildren.

To paraphrase your line... Fighting against that for the greed of today is "as unsportsmanlike as a hunter can be".

I’m not advocating for 2 tracks and gondolas to the top of every peak in wilderness areas. Honestly how far could any wheel chair make it off the beat path? Not far. Any trail in place that is designated for hiking and horses should be open to those with disabilities. If they can make it up there, great. If not, they can try elsewhere. Horses tear up trails worse than any wheel chair would. How about we turn all wilderness areas into foot traffic only. No horses or pack animals allowed. If you can’t carry it in on your back yourself, too bad. Sound good? Or does that impact you in same way? ?

grizzly · Nov 21, 2020

highfastflyer said:
Anyone could always petition the Forest Director of that particular wilderness area and get an exemption. I was in the Teton Wilderness a few years back and heard a generator running at night. Next morning I passed by an Outfitter and asked him about it. One of his guests had severe sleep apnea and required a CPAP machine. He had applied several months prior and been given an exemption. Many Wilderness areas allow Canoes already, depends upon the particular area and rules and exemptions are sometimes granted.

I hadn't thought of CPAP machines, that's an interesting one. Are there Wilderness Areas that allow motorized canoes or just paddle? I'd expect them to allow paddle since they're not "mechanized" but motorized would be a new one to me unless there was some sort of grandfather status.

There are many areas where the boundary goes around a road on both sides to allow what, in effect, becomes a road into the Wilderness Area. That way the part of ground the road is on isn't actually Wilderness but the areas on both sides of the road are.

elkassassin · Nov 21, 2020

So?

I Could Take My Generator in to the Primitive?

Can I Haul it in on a Wheeler?

highfastflyer said:
Anyone could always petition the Forest Director of that particular wilderness area and get an exemption. I was in the Teton Wilderness a few years back and heard a generator running at night. Next morning I passed by an Outfitter and asked him about it. One of his guests had severe sleep apnea and required a CPAP machine. He had applied several months prior and been given an exemption. Many Wilderness areas allow Canoes already, depends upon the particular area and rules and exemptions are sometimes granted.

highfastflyer · Nov 23, 2020

You have to rea

grizzly said:
I hadn't thought of CPAP machines, that's an interesting one. Are there Wilderness Areas that allow motorized canoes or just paddle? I'd expect them to allow paddle since they're not "mechanized" but motorized would be a new one to me unless there was some sort of grandfather status.

There are many areas where the boundary goes around a road on both sides to allow what, in effect, becomes a road into the Wilderness Area. That way the part of ground the road is on isn't actually Wilderness but the areas on both sides of the road are.

You have to research each forest or Park area. They all have different rules, especially when it comes to boats. In Yellowstone you even require a boat permit for a float tube. In some canoes are allowed, some not. In Boundary Wilderness you can even use wheels for portage for your canoe. It all just depends and Wilderness areas for each Forest Director are managed differently just as with grazing. Some wilderness areas they do allow Cattle grazing. Do your homework before you go as to what the rules for each area are specified. In Wyoming all non-resident hunters must have a guide or a resident guide to take you into the Wilderness for hunting but fishing and backpacking are allowed.

grizzly · Nov 23, 2020

highfastflyer said:
You have to rea

You have to research each forest or Park area. They all have different rules, especially when it comes to boats. In Yellowstone you even require a boat permit for a float tube. In some canoes are allowed, some not. In Boundary Wilderness you can even use wheels for portage for your canoe. It all just depends and Wilderness areas for each Forest Director are managed differently just as with grazing. Some wilderness areas they do allow Cattle grazing. Do your homework before you go as to what the rules for each area are specified. In Wyoming all non-resident hunters must have a guide or a resident guide to take you into the Wilderness for hunting but fishing and backpacking are allowed.

I think we're talking around each other. I'm aware of Park and forest rules, but they're FAR different from Wilderness rules. The "no mechanized" part is why wheels aren't allowed in Boundary for canoe portage; that is why bikes being pushed by Mike Lee is such a drastic jump. When you mentioned canoes, I thought you were implying motorized canoes in Wilderness Areas which is why I followed up with a clarifying question. This has nothing to do with Yellowstone National Park or Forest Service ground, just designated Wilderness Areas. Again, I think we're on the same page, just talking in circles.

highfastflyer · Nov 23, 2020

grizzly said:
I think we're talking around each other. I'm aware of Park and forest rules, but they're FAR different from Wilderness rules. The "no mechanized" part is why wheels aren't allowed in Boundary for canoe portage; that is why bikes being pushed by Mike Lee is such a drastic jump. When you mentioned canoes, I thought you were implying motorized canoes in Wilderness Areas which is why I followed up with a clarifying question. This has nothing to do with Yellowstone National Park or Forest Service ground, just designated Wilderness Areas. Again, I think we're on the same page, just talking in circles.

I’m sure we’re talking around each other happens often in these forums. LOL. In Boundary, Portage wheels are permitted on a handful of portages, you just have to find out which ones are allowed. Like I said in an earlier post each Wilderness area has distinct rules they allow and enforce and you can always ask for an exemption if you have time like using a Generator. I also once saw a Scout master who had received an exemption for a week long trail clearing project for his Scout troop to clear a blown down trail in the Wind River Wilderness. The amount of trees they cleared was monumental, literally miles of blow down, amazing work. Remember Forest service lands are where the majority of Wilderness areas are located.

Elkslayer2015 · Nov 24, 2020

Yeah we do hunt them a lot year round.
This is a big problem with are deer herd no wonder why we can’t bounce back....

Ultimag · Nov 30, 2020

cantkillathing said:
Dont you know bess we need more hunts for these critters, that get to much rest, if we can push them even harder we might be able to push more muscle on them and less fat content

Montana, pushes, them for 6 months, start in August stop in February that's just our hunting season doesn't include shed hunting season

southernutahhunter · Dec 1, 2020

So, I have looked at some areas that I hunted back in October. Again just to confirm my thoughts, still very few deer. I saw 5 groups of about 8-10 doe and not one of the groups had a buck in with them. This was during the Thanksgiving weekend. Some say that shooting bucks does not decrease the herd. Can someone tell me if there are not any bucks to breed the doe, can this decrease the deer herd? Or if what bucks there are cannot get around to all the doe groups then what would that do to the deer herd?

MuleyKiller · Dec 2, 2020

The Deer herd in this state is so far gone that it will take Drastic measures and restrictions to bring it back. And you have all mentioned those in previous posts. Tags have to be cut. Weapons restrictions have to be put in place. Seasons have to be shortened. Alot of these seasons have to be cancelled, like extended archery ,dedicated hunters, early and late rifle, late muzzleloader, HAMS and the list goes on ! The fact is we have to many seasons and to many people out chasing a herd that never gets a rest, like elkassassin stated above. When you listen to the DWR in the RAC meetings they think the buck to doe ratios are right where they need to be and they talk about habitat availability(Which is a valid point). But mostly they all talk about OPPUTUNITY! All they want is for every person in the state to have some sort of a tag and an opportunity every year, and you cant manage anything that way and expect it to be successful. You Can now see there decisions to manage for opportunity. Taking its toll on all the other species as well. Look at our elk units. Utah used to be know for great limited elk units and now they are just 330 Bull opportunity units. So I say we rename our limited entries units and our general seasons units to opportunity units because that's what we are managing for. Learn how to live with it because the management isn't changing!

slamdunk · Dec 2, 2020

Here's a little data from over the years.
I tried to copy and paste, but it lost the layout, so I screen shot it.
On a side note, Utah did cut deer tags for 2020 by 10,225.
We have half the hunters afield today as we did in 1976 (107,003 less) and our herds are plummeting.
In essence, we have cut tags (sold) over 110,000 and see no improvement, just declining numbers in both deer and hunters.
Also, there are far fewer doe tags offered throughout the state now than before, but even 1 doe tag is too many on most units.

Unless I am missing something....

cantkillathing · Dec 2, 2020

We didnt have trophy lion and bear tags, and we didnt have some many coyotes, again the neonate study on bookcliffs is showing a hell of alot of fawns dying to predators.

slamdunk · Dec 2, 2020

cantkillathing said:
We didnt have trophy lion and bear tags, and we didnt have some many coyotes, again the neonate study on bookcliffs is showing a hell of alot of fawns dying to predators.

I agree 100%
We also didn't have near the traffic on our roadways, nor the speeds we drive today.

grizzly · Dec 2, 2020

It looks like we more than doubled our doe harvest from 2013 to 2018.

It's pretty clear to me the deer never recovered from the 1992-93 winter.

joesikora · Dec 4, 2020

slamdunk said:
Hoss, I still wish they would issue GS tags that specify an age class of buck you are hunting, or do like Wyoming does and have APR's within a unit.

For instance, I apply for a "Mature Buck Only" tag which legally binds me to that choice i made.

Wyoming has some APR's within some units where if you are hunting a certain area, you can only harvest what is outlined in the proclamation like "3 point or better" "4 point or better" "any buck" or even "any deer".

I would have to assume most hunters cannot discipline themselves and will harvest a yearling buck just to kill a deer if they cannot find an opportunity for a mature buck early in their hunt.
I'm definitely guilty of that in my younger years.

Hey SLAMMER! I want to preface by a saying I know nothing about UT game and fish or wildlife management. You said that they should go to an age limit on the deer. How are the deer age determined is that like IL and MO where the IDNR will restrict showing does or a buck has to have 4 points on at least one side until they get the population back to where their want it?

thanks Joe

kittykiller · Dec 5, 2020

deerkiller said:
That’s not true! We have a flourishing herd of inbred retarded wild horses, boat loads of common and mirror carp, strong numbers of euro doves, starlings and sparrows... and it seems like the turkeys are expanding at a rapid pace as well!

let’s not forget that utah manages cattle pretty good as well. They seem to care more about creating feed and water sources for the cattle grazing on public land than the wildlife that lives there.

It's amazing how dumb you make yourself sound.

deerkiller · Dec 5, 2020

kittykiller said:
It's amazing how dumb you make yourself sound.

Retarded or not, everything I said was the truth. Or are you one of those clowns that struggles to catch a carp or find a damn turkey to shoot at? ?

slamdunk · Dec 11, 2020

Continued predator control efforts coupled with more fencing and crossings to reduce highway mortality in high traffic deer areas are huge steps in helping recovery.

There are numerous fencing and crossing projects on the books.

Patients and support is what we need as Sportsman.

elkassassin · Dec 11, 2020

Until HELL-RIGHT Is Understood & Sinks in You're All Pissin in the Wind!

You've Named a Very Few of the Many Problems with the Deer Herd!

grizzly · Dec 11, 2020

elkassassin said:
Until HELL-RIGHT Is Understood

You're starting to sound like Uncle Rico ?

elkassassin · Dec 11, 2020

Hey grizz!

It's Not If We could go back!

It's We Should go back!

elkassassin · Dec 11, 2020

If You're Gonna Raise Hell then You better DAMN Raise Hell Right!

HELL RIGHT!

DeerHunter53 · Dec 12, 2020

slamdunk said:
Here's a little data from over the years.
I tried to copy and paste, but it lost the layout, so I screen shot it.
On a side note, Utah did cut deer tags for 2020 by 10,225.
We have half the hunters afield today as we did in 1976 (107,003 less) and our herds are plummeting.
In essence, we have cut tags (sold) over 110,000 and see no improvement, just declining numbers in both deer and hunters.
Also, there are far fewer doe tags offered throughout the state now than before, but even 1 doe tag is too many on most units.

Unless I am missing something....

View attachment 18909 View attachment 18910

it looks like 88-92 did most of the damage 92 was the last big year after that it seems everything went downhill. I do remember a huge winter in 92 as Area G in Wyoming suffered as well. That was the year I hunted Area G and we saw exactly 10 deer that year. I shot a big 4 point probably 175 but he was the only big buck we saw in Greys River Drainage