Ethical Ethics Question?

nk · Mar 14, 2020

I live in an area where there are some quality deer. I’d call them neighborhood bucks. We live in an area where 5 acres or more are the standard lot size. My home backs up to thousands of acres of private ranch land. With permission I could easily harvest a big buck but it wouldn’t be much of a challenge so, I pass and hunt the more hunter crowded less deer populated mountains.

I feel it’s more of a challenge to hunt the deer in their natural setting than more tamed bucks. I’m interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts? I have to admit, it’s tough not shooting a giant off my back porch but it would be way less satisfying. Where’s everyone else on this ethical or not so ethical delimma?
nk

schoolhousegrizz · Mar 14, 2020

I hear you. For several years I had the opportunity to hunt some big bucks on my uncle's private land. It would have been a lot easier than hunting the mountains. At the time I almost considered that cheating so I didn't do it. In hindsight I probably should have done it. It was a great chance to shoot a big buck.

Vanilla · Mar 14, 2020

I don’t view that as an “ethical” question at all. It’s way more about what do YOU want to get out of your hunting experience? If killing a big buck off your back porch leaves you fulfilled, then do it. If it doesn’t, then no reason to kill that animal and go give yourself a better experience.

There is no ethical implication hunting a legal area, by legal means, with permission from the landowner. It’s just if that gives you the experience you are looking for or not.

We all do this for different reasons. Do what makes you have good experiences (so long as it is legal) as my experience is meaningless to you.

nk · Mar 14, 2020

Good point. I guess ethical may have been a poor choice of words.

deerkiller · Mar 14, 2020

I’d shoot the big deer and feel good about it. You own the land. You pay taxes on the land. You care for and manage the land. Why not benefit from it? Who cares what others think. Hunt for the reasons and outcomes YOU desire

DesertRanch · Mar 14, 2020

deerkiller said:
I’d shoot the big deer and feel good about it. You own the land. You pay taxes on the land. You care for and manage the land. Why not benefit from it? Who cares what others think. Hunt for the reasons and outcomes YOU desire

That’s hilarious coming from you!!! You have raved about your hate for landowners and ranchers. Remember the PM you sent me stating how ALL ranchers you have dealt with are jerks? And now you must of changed your mind? Just when I thought I couldn’t respect you any less, you go and prove me wrong.

elkassassin · Mar 14, 2020

Can You PM Me Coordinates to Your Back Porch?

nk said:
Good point. I guess ethical may have been a poor choice of words.

deerkiller · Mar 14, 2020

DesertRanch said:
That’s hilarious coming from you!!! You have raved about your hate for landowners and ranchers. Remember the PM you sent me stating how ALL ranchers you have dealt with are jerks? And now you must of changed your mind? Just when I thought I couldn’t respect you any less, you go and prove me wrong.

Serious question. no, I never said I hate land owners. I hate freeloading cattle runners that graze private stock on public lands for a profit and the entitled attitudes said cattle moochers have on public land. That has nothing to do with supporting hunting on private land that someone owns.

txhunter58 · Mar 14, 2020

My house is on 5 acres in the country and we have a big deer population. However, I see the fawns born, feed them year round so that I can shake a bucket of corn and they come running. So, no I personally would never shoot one of my back porch.

I could also should a massive 350+ bull elk off a high fenced ranch less than 20 miles from my house in Texas, but I never will. I will continue to trek the mountains of Colorado and shoot smaller bulls with great memories.

nk · Mar 14, 2020

Please leave this thread if you want to have immature discussions. Thx nk

middlefork · Mar 14, 2020

Does every big buck need to be shot? At some point we should be able to just appreciate that they are there.

There was a lot of discussion about hunting AI in Utah. Money won out.

dihardhunter · Mar 14, 2020

Ya, that's a preference question to me. I have taken advantage of some urban archery opportunities for whitetails here in the Midwest. The same as taking a buck on highly pressured public land, certainly not. Still a challenge, yes but definitely different. Will I do it again? Likely yes. If I had to give up either public land hunting or urban archery hunting opportunity? In less than 2 seconds I'd be locked into public land opportunities for the rest of time.

Deerlove · Mar 14, 2020

Interesting topic, my boy shot a cool nontypical a couple of years ago on easy night hunt. It made a nice euro mount. IF he had taken the buck up in the highcountry where we normally hunt it would of been a shoulder mount.

deerkiller · Mar 14, 2020

Deerlove said:
Interesting topic, my boy shot a cool nontypical a couple of years ago on easy night hunt. It made a nice euro mount. IF he had taken the buck up in the highcountry where we normally hunt it would of been a shoulder mount.

So does that mean a deer living on private ground deserves less respect or recognition than one who lived on public ground?

deer live where they live for many reasons. But as far as I know, they can’t determine what ground is privately owned and what is public. They just determine where they fell is the safest areas that don’t see as much human disturbance as other places do.

deerkiller · Mar 14, 2020

DesertRanch said:
That’s hilarious coming from you!!! You have raved about your hate for landowners and ranchers. Remember the PM you sent me stating how ALL ranchers you have dealt with are jerks? And now you must of changed your mind? Just when I thought I couldn’t respect you any less, you go and prove me wrong.

08/28/2019
“my problem is I’ve seen nothing but destruction cause by livestock on public land and entitlement to that said land by the people who own the damn cows. I hate those kinds of people and everyone I?ve run into that owns cows that they run on public land is nothing more than rude, inconsiderate, disrespectful people who will flat out tell me that they have more right to that land than I do, because they pay to be there and I dont”

here’s the PM I sent to you after you messaged me lookin for a fight. Where do I say I hate land owners? I don’t. Quit putting words in my mouth that I never said. It’s becoming very clear to me that you are the kind of public grazing moocher I’m talking about. Your attitude is precisely what I have issues with regarding these people.

HalfAce · Mar 14, 2020

I wouldn’t hunt the swing set bucks near my place, but I’m not above hunting a big subdivision buck in another state. Haven’t done it, but I would. I don’t get excited for anything around home, but, the further away you get from home, the greater the adventure feels.

nk · Mar 15, 2020

Thx for the replies.

BrianID · Mar 15, 2020

NK,

I agree with you. It is more about the experience than the inches of antler. I would rather shoot a spike bull on public land than a giant tame bull on fenced private land. I would rather shoot a fork horn muley on public land or a doe whitetail than a tame subdivision buck with giant antlers.

Deepcolor · Mar 15, 2020

I would rather hunt the high country and share those adventures with my hunting buddies. I do have access to several thousand acres of family land that starts at my doorstep, this has been perfect for starting my kids out on big game hunting. A quick hunt after school and practice have been pretty fun over the years.

Servehim · Mar 16, 2020

Seeing a massive set of antlers on my wall that I didn't have to work for ..... it would take more than Clorox to disinfect that feeling in my gut . I'll take pics and frame that.

Bluehair · Mar 16, 2020

I've lived in this house for 22 years and never killed anything here. The kids killed a few deer though and the neighbors slaughter a bunch of my "residents".

I'll be 60 pretty soon and I have made a ton of hikes thru the high country after some cool stuff. Its harder for me now and it doesn't give me the same satisfaction that it did. And the kids moved away so only the lions kill anything here anymore.

I believe I would be completely satisfied to pop one off the deck I worked my azz off to put there, as my view from there makes me quite content. The thought of running back there with the backhoe to grab a buck at my age doesn't make me ashamed at all.

Yup, I think I may do it this year. I like venison, and maybe there will still be some without CWD for a couple more years.

Tristate · Mar 16, 2020

This ain't an ethics question. But with everyone's behavior lately of trying to force their hunting choices on everyone else I can see how the semantics of "ethics" gets blurred. Kind of like lawyers who don't understand the word "irresponsible".

Go hunt and have fun however you like hunting. Don't worry about what the internet thinks of you.

Just remember those small parcel urban deer NEED to get killed also. Don't look down your nose at the guys that step up and do the job. It can be harder work than you think,

I think yeti did a great video about a guy that kills about 75 deer a year out of urban areas with archery tackle. He is really helping out a municipality a lot.

mta5672 · Mar 16, 2020

deerkiller said:
Serious question. no, I never said I hate land owners. I hate freeloading cattle runners that graze private stock on public lands for a profit and the entitled attitudes said cattle moochers have on public land. That has nothing to do with supporting hunting on private land that someone owns.

Do you hate the mining companies that mine public land for profit, do you hate guides and outfitters that use public land for profit, do you benefit from the use of public land? Do you even understand how public land grazing works? Did you ever think that public land ranchers are just trying to feed you? The reason a handful of them are jerks is because of the ignorant cry baby pissy pants people that are more worried about their weekend instagram glory shots than a man trying to make an honest living. There may be a few that dont respect the land like they should but there is damn sure way more dickweeds on 4 wheelers and side by sides trying to be instant gratification mongers tearing up the country side than honest cattleman doing the same. Until you can show me some factual evidence of a rancher doing any harm to the public lands or on welfare you will be nothing more than another one of the thousands of dillholes trying to get a pat on the back because of your phonescope and instagram account...

Bluehair · Mar 16, 2020

From my porch a couple minutes ago. Note the wound on his back. That wasn't there a couple days ago. Wonder what could have done that?

I thought this guy was a funny coincidence at the same time as this thread.

And yup, they are starting to shed. Spring is coming.

elkfromabove · Mar 16, 2020

Venison is venison! And, next to the potatoes and gravy, the one in the back yard looks and tastes just like the one off the hill and it costs a whole lot less. So, I'd just as soon shoot a tasty dink off the porch and continue watching and filming the others. And I'll save the mountain adventures for elk.

Giddyup · Mar 16, 2020

I’d say most killers now days don’t care where or how it’s killed. As long as it gets them famous on social media. Note, I say killers not Hunters. They shed hunting is worse than that. People out looking before the first of the year, just so they can post it. So what is ethical?

Bluehair · Mar 16, 2020

Laziness aside, I don't see a hella lota difference between me shooting a deer on my pond or a waterhole on public lands.

Deerlove · Mar 16, 2020

deerkiller said:
So does that mean a deer living on private ground deserves less respect or recognition than one who lived on public ground?

deer live where they live for many reasons. But as far as I know, they can’t determine what ground is privately owned and what is public. They just determine where they fell is the safest areas that don’t see as much human disturbance as other places do.

DK the deer does NOT have less respect it's just when I have sweat equity into a animal it has MORE respect to me,

ReinerDude · Mar 16, 2020

I seem to appreciate something a lot more when I have sweat equity in it. I'm not saying if I wanted some venison I would be above it, but it sure wouldn't be the same feeling of accomplishment for me.

bigsky2 · Mar 16, 2020

I live on the edge of town and last summer I had a 165" buck hanging around my house fairly frequently. I would be shooting my bow behind the house while he laid next to the garage in the shade watching me shoot. A guy from town messaged me on Facebook asking for permission to hunt on my 7 acres and said he had been watching that buck and thought it would be a "nice first bow kill". I told him that any deer that didn't lay next to people's houses and watch while they mowed their yard would be a better first bow kill than that deer. To me shooting a deer that is conditioned to people like that isn't much different than shooting an Angus cow. It can also give hunting a really bad image. It's not always just about the size of the antlers.

bullskin · Mar 16, 2020

Am I to refuse a huge buck simply because he is standing broadside as I happen to get out of my vehicle at my selected hunting site, simply because he was too easy? While this outcome is not memorable, and not what I hope for, it is not unethical on the grounds that it is too easy. That said, I would not waste my own tag--and the experience--on a backyard buck. Hunting seasons are too few and far between.

There are those who would turn hunting into "sport," in order to give the impression that hunters are simply selfish and cruel and thereby eliminate the opportunity. (As I write this, PETArd is listed as a "member on-line") First and foremost, hunting is about acquiring food in the least sustainable manner. We, of all people, must remember this and make it known. That we enjoy the experience is nothing to be ashamed about when this fact is taken into consideration.

Provided we hunt in accordance with the laws intended to protect the resource then we are behaving ethically. But, it is important to remember that the question of sustainability depends also on the continued support of the non-hunting public. If we piss off our neighbors because we kill their pet buck, then this cannot end well. On the other hand, they must understand that they are breaking the law (at least in my state) if they feed big game, and that this sort of harmful and selfish behavior can similarly not be tolerated.

Bluehair · Mar 16, 2020

They eat the chit I plant. You complaining because they like my habitat?

littlebighorn · Mar 16, 2020

Bluehair,
Pretty amazing picture of two one antlered deer. Both could be targets!

NK,
I admire your thinking and your question, but I believe we all have our own "self-imposed" limitations.

For example, I no longer shoot forkies, yet I killed a boatload of them in my earlier years. I don't condemn myself for that, because there are lots of different legitimate reasons that my standards have changed.

A few years back, Founder ate a Once in a Lifetime Mt. Goat tag because the ones he was hunting just acted too tame. (see his post)
His actions took what I consider to be "fair chase" to a whole new level. (not sure I could have done what he did)

So as long as it is legal, and what you do, doesn't give hunting a black eye, I guess "fair chase" has it's own requirements for each of us.
Have an adventure and a good time, however you define it.

nk · Mar 16, 2020

Again, thanks for all the replies. I guess I enjoy the challenge more than anything. So, I’ll continue to hit the mountains and harvest the one that’s bigger than the last one I shot. At least for now. Perhaps someday that may change but steep, deep and out of sight fits my idea of hunting.

I do understand and respect others views and appreciate the responses. Seems to be some good thoughts on the topic.

bullskin · Mar 16, 2020

bullskin said:
Am I to refuse a huge buck simply because he is standing broadside as I happen to get out of my vehicle at my selected hunting site, simply because he was too easy? While this outcome is not memorable, and not what I hope for, it is not unethical on the grounds that it is too easy. That said, I would not waste my own tag--and the experience--on a backyard buck. Hunting seasons are too few and far between.

There are those who would turn hunting into "sport," in order to give the impression that hunters are simply selfish and cruel and thereby eliminate the opportunity. (As I write this, PETArd is listed as a "member on-line") First and foremost, hunting is about acquiring food in the least sustainable manner. We, of all people, must remember this and make it known. That we enjoy the experience is nothing to be ashamed about when this fact is taken into consideration.

Provided we hunt in accordance with the laws intended to protect the resource then we are behaving ethically. But, it is important to remember that the question of sustainability depends also on the continued support of the non-hunting public. If we piss off our neighbors because we kill their pet buck, then this cannot end well. On the other hand, they must understand that they are breaking the law (at least in my state) if they feed big game, and that this sort of harmful and selfish behavior can similarly not be tolerated.

Dang. I meant "MOST" sustainable manner...

deerkiller · Mar 17, 2020

mta5672 said:
Do you hate the mining companies that mine public land for profit, do you hate guides and outfitters that use public land for profit, do you benefit from the use of public land? Do you even understand how public land grazing works? Did you ever think that public land ranchers are just trying to feed you? The reason a handful of them are jerks is because of the ignorant cry baby pissy pants people that are more worried about their weekend instagram glory shots than a man trying to make an honest living. There may be a few that dont respect the land like they should but there is damn sure way more dickweeds on 4 wheelers and side by sides trying to be instant gratification mongers tearing up the country side than honest cattleman doing the same. Until you can show me some factual evidence of a rancher doing any harm to the public lands or on welfare you will be nothing more than another one of the thousands of dillholes trying to get a pat on the back because of your phonescope and instagram account...

No I really only have issues with. It’s public land. Most groups of people who use that land understand it’s shared resources with many different people. I’ve had far better conversations with anti hunters using the same ground I was, than I have with the cattle moochers. Like I said, the entitlement attitudes these guys have are unbelievable. I’ve literally had them tell me they have more right to be there than I do, because they pay grazing fees, and I don’t. Im not gonna bow down and kiss these idiots feet. I don’t rely on them to live my life. I’ve seen countless springs and seeps just stomped to **** by their cows. Landscape just trashed by their cows. It’s funny you bring up ATVs and people abusing them on public land. I’ve seen many times where someone went off road and “destroyed” habitat. It’s unfortunate and wrong, and i Definitely don’t support that behavior. But a rogue ATV doesn’t have **** on a herd of cattle as far as destruction goes. A herd of cattle causes 10x more destruction in an area than an atv does. They completely tear up that area and devastate it. Causing massive erosion problems in some areas because of it. Much more damage than any atv would do.

I don’t try or have any desire to make a living off Instagram or Facebook. And I don’t even own a phoneskope. So im not sure why you threw that at me. I’m out there to hunt and enjoy our public lands. I fully understand this is a shared resource. I never expect to have the land to myself and I certainly would never tell anyone that I have more right to be there than they do. But those cattle moochers definitely don’t share that opinion. And because of that, I will never support public grazing. You want to run cows for a living, great. Do it on your own property. But don’t act like you are doing me a service by choosing that lifestyle. I don’t need cattle. Especially when they are profiting at the expense of a public resource and expect to have more right to it than anyone else does.

Bluehair · Mar 17, 2020

That was a pretty good cow rant. But I generally like cowboys. Shucks.

feddoc · Mar 17, 2020

I would rather enjoy the chase and the essence of the hunt....that's why I've stuck with the same unit for about 50 years. Elk numbers are way down, but deer are coming back up. Nearly each spot in the road, or each oddly shaped rock or each group of trees has a memory attached to it.

fatrooster · Mar 29, 2020

Two years ago we had a neighborhood buck with 220" antlers. He was pretty much a pet and many people loved to see him. I knew he was gonna be hunted and low and behold a Govenor tag holder paid a local guide service to help him get the buck. Outrage from the community and conspiracy theories and stories went rampant. Everything seemed to be legal when all was said and done. No laws were broken, the guide service got paid and the hunter was happy. Do I agree with it? No. The hunter was not a hunter at all but merely a collector that paid big bucks to kill a buck eating bird seed out of bird feeders. The deer I respect, the hunter I do not.
If a man pays to hunt a high fenced ranch and kills a 500" bull elk it means nothing to me. Legal but I'm not interested in hearing about it. But if a man kills a 330" bull on public land on a DIY hunt in a blizzard with 10" of snow on the ground, well thats a story I want to hear. When I was 12 years old living and growing up in Florida I dreamed of living in the West and read countless magazine stories of men hunting the mountains fighting the elements to get it done and living the romance of the hunt with the hunter. That has not changed and I have been living in Northern Nevada for 25 years and I'm 56 years old now. If you kill a buck off of your front porch and didn't break any laws then so be it. If you draw a once in a lifetime tag and use a guide service that employs 10 people to go out and keep tabs and camp out on a huge buck and aren't breaking any laws then again, so be it. But I personally don't care to hear the story.
If you are old and have done your time traipsing around in the mountains and want to kill a buck for venison or put a nice one on the wall then so be it. You've done your time and you deserve a nice wall hanger. I get it. But I don't want to hear your story. I'm getting older and I may kill a yard buck when I'm 70 but it will never add up to the bucks I've killed on top of a mountain that nearly killed me getting the meat out. So if you are fullfilled at killing a monster neighborhood buck and you do it legally then good for you. I for one will pass up reading your story because it really does not interest me. The story of Founder passing up a tamed mountain goat because he had too much respect to kill it interest me and I admire the ethics involved to let it walk. Thats the kind of person I'd like to share a camp fire with and trade hunting stories with. Thats the kind of people that are my heroes. fatrooster.