WHAT IS UTAH THINKING?

H

huntinguy

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Just spent the last 6 days hunting elk during the archery in Ely, Nevada. Several close calls but came home eating tag soup. This was my first time ever hunting with a bow and it's plain tough. The hunt is very weather dependent and believe it or not the elk were not at full rut. That along with the watchful eyes of several cows makes it fun, challenging, but at the same time disapointing.With a rifle I could have been successful 5 times a day for 6 days with 350 plus bulls. No joke.

Dont get me wrong I plan on archery hunting elk lots in the future but I cant help but think how easy rifle hunting elk would be especially in Utah during prime time rutting. I think Utah has it all wrong doing it this way and that Nevada is smart to have their rifle elk hunt in late October and Muzzle elk in November. What is Utah thinking??? I've heard it said that this hunt is like going shopping for elk.

Very cool seeing all the bulls that hit the ground. Any one that has ever shot a bull or buck with a bow has my total respect as it is hard as hell to do and takes many, many variables to come together at the same time.Any ways just some thoughts.
 
its true.... Utah sucks at the way they have the rifle hunt during the Rut.....what challenge is it??? they success rate is what 80 something percent and they call that hunting??????
 
Perhaps our hunting "model" is all wrong. States maximise selling the number of permits to make the most money, and then hope hunters are NOT sucessful.

How many car dealers would get away with that, sell all the cars you can, make them cheap, then expect your customers to be happy that 34% of them work ?

The Utah model is to have 100% suces.

the hunitng comes part become looking at lots of bulls each day, hunting for the ONE you want, be it B and C score, typical, non typical, etc.

Maybee Utaards have it right, and the other states have it wrong !
 
Utah has it wrong. To long to wait to hunt a great animal

>Perhaps our hunting "model" is all
>wrong. States maximise selling
>the number of permits to
>make the most money, and
>then hope hunters are NOT
>sucessful.
>
>How many car dealers would get
>away with that, sell all
>the cars you can, make
>them cheap, then expect your
>customers to be happy that
>34% of them work ?
>
>
>The Utah model is to have
>100% suces.
>
>the hunitng comes part become looking
>at lots of bulls each
>day, hunting for the ONE
>you want, be it B
>and C score, typical, non
>typical, etc.
>
>Maybee Utaards have it right, and
>the other states have it
>wrong !


alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 
Utah has it all wrong.... I mean.... just look at how bad the the Elk herd is doing lol...

It continually amazes me that the biggest complaints I hear are about the elk herd! We should all be whining about the deer herd!

I am just thankful that when my wife hunts her elk this fall she has a legit chance at a 350" bull on one of the so-called "lesser" Utah units.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-10 AT 02:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-10 AT 02:34?PM (MST)

Thank's BIG..

Told ya. :)
 
So.... You draw and go to Nevada, dont kill a bull, and come home and complain about Utah??

I don't get it? Yeah, the dates could be better, yeah some think it should be as is, some say move the hunts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think both sides have VERY valid points.

BUT, right now you know what the dates are and you have the freedom to apply for any of the hunts. Put in, draw and hunt your guts out. You chose the hunt you drew right??

I have been a part of many Utah LE archery elk hunts. I have personally had 3 tags. I know the challenges and risks of it. Luckily, we have been successful on all tags but 1. I would take an archery tag tomorrow if they would give me one. And in 5 years I will apply for another. It is a very tough but rewarding hunt.

I would love to hunt all of Sept. Who wouldn't?? Point is, if the risks are too great or if killing a bull is that important save your points and go with a rifle.

In my experience over the last 5 years, the muzzy hunt has been the very best for rutting activity and success. We have 3 muzzy tags this year to fill, so I hope it turns out well again!

Sorry you did not get your bull. Good luck on your future hunts!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-10 AT 08:17PM (MST)[p]Silentstalker I would consider you my friend and loved hunting with your family in the bookcliffs this year. Butt I got to say this. How do you think your tune would go if you were like me and my family and have never drawn a LE deer or elk hunt in any state let alone my own home state of Utah.

The facts are most hunters are in the same boat as I. If you look at the current odds it is plane as the nose on your face we cannot keep going like we are. The bonus point system is a monster butt plug and only got worse with the age objective they just passed.

NO DKPeay Utah has it wrong. You have it wrong and you are $$benifiting from it. We only have big elk cause we cant hunt them. It has nothing to do with your BS projects. sorry I strongly disagree with your statements and your stances on wildlife. The state that has it right is AZ JMHO! I'm still waiting for the tag cuts to come again when the void needs to be filled by your spike tags! In the mean time you can laugh all the way to the bank and i can only wish some day of hunting a LE unit.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Scott,

Perhaps my comments were misunderstood or stated incorrectly.

I am a HUGE supporter of restructuring the season dates.

I am a HUGE supporter of moving the rifle hunt out mid Sept.

I am a HUGE supporter of moving people through the point pool by offering increased tags to the least efficient weapons allowing for "opportunity" without greatly impacting the resource.

I have carried that banner for a long time at the RAC's and WB meetings, and here on good ole MM. I have spoke this mindset in an elk committee meeting. I know the system is broken for all but a select few each year. I hope for change that benefits wildlife and hunters alike.

My point was this. This hunter applied for a bowhunt in another State and drew out, then compalined about the conditions. You and I both know the conditions on the archery hunt. It is tough but a guy/gal should know going in that it is the case. Success is low but the reward is very high.

I hope this helps with my personal views on this matter. Don't draw a tag and then complain after the fact about things you knew going in.

Maybe I am just feeling a bit testy tonight?? Who knows!
 
I know exactly where you are coming from SS before you even responded to my post. I had to go back and re read mine to see what was up. When I re read my post it does come off as if I was ripping you. Belive me it was just a question I was asking you. "How do you think your tune would be if ect." I guess I was just fishing for a response from ya but my statements were poorly written. I am no English major when it comes to typing especially when I try and do two things at the same time like talk to my wife on the phone about life and type that response. Sorry it came across like it did.

I was absolutely venting on DKpeay's post about 100% success rate on B and C animals..


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
>So.... You draw and go to
>Nevada, dont kill a bull,
>and come home and complain
>about Utah??

Who the heck said anything that could be constituted as a complaint??? I simply said that I cannot even fathom hunting in Utah with a rifle during the rut for elk. This trip to Nevada was my first elk and archery hunts. It was very cool seeing lots of bulls. Until this trip I hadnt ever thought about Utah's elk seasons, but now that I have it seems all wrong. Questioning a season date isnt complaining and is well within the rights of any concerned sportsman IMO.
 
>Just spent the last 6 days
>hunting elk during the archery
>in Ely, Nevada. Several close
>calls but came home eating
>tag soup. This was my
>first time ever hunting with
>a bow and it's plain
>tough. The hunt is very
>weather dependent and believe it
>or not the elk were
>not at full rut. That
>along with the watchful eyes
>of several cows makes it
>fun, challenging, but at the
>same time disapointing.With a rifle
>I could have been successful
>5 times a day for
>6 days with 350 plus
>bulls. No joke.
>
>Dont get me wrong I plan
>on archery hunting elk lots
>in the future but I
>cant help but think how
>easy rifle hunting elk would
>be especially in Utah during
>prime time rutting. I think
>Utah has it all wrong
>doing it this way and
>that Nevada is smart to
>have their rifle elk hunt
>in late October and Muzzle
>elk in November. What is
>Utah thinking??? I've heard it
>said that this hunt is
>like going shopping for elk.
>
>
>Very cool seeing all the bulls
>that hit the ground. Any
>one that has ever shot
>a bull or buck with
>a bow has my total
>respect as it is hard
>as hell to do and
>takes many, many variables to
>come together at the same
>time.Any ways just some thoughts.
>



yeah utah elk hunting sucks. i would not even apply for a trophy bull tag here.the rifle hunters killed all of the 380 plus bulls lmfao.
 
Sorry Huntinguy,

It seemed to me like you were complaining. If that was not the case I apologize. I wish you could of got your bull and hope the future holds some modification to season dates here in Utah. Good luck on your hunts!

Scott,

No worries. I knew where you were headed!
 
Is it fair that the archery guys get the cream of the crop so to speak. What about the guy that has no desire to archery hunt. He draws a muzzy or rifle tag, watches a huge bull all summer and then a guy with an archery tag kills him before the guy with the muzzy tag gets a chance. how is that fair?

Maybe we should look at a rotating system where each weapon gets a chance to be first to hunt every third season. The year that the rifle hunt goes first they would be limited to very few tags (25%) for that season and the archers and muzzy hunters would get an increase in tags (maybe double). The year that the archers go first they would get a normal amount of tags and the muzzy guys would see an increase in tags with the rifle hunters getting a normal amount. The third year the muzzy guys would go first with a limited number of tags. then the archers with an increased number of tags and then the rifle guys with a normal amount.

So 2 of 3 years the archers and muzzy guys would see an increased amount of tags with the rifle guys seeing less tags in the long run yet still get a first hunt every thrid year.
 
I think ultimately the tags allocations and season dates need to be about what is best for the resource. Is it good for the herd?

We could ask is it fair questions all day long. Is it fair for a guy with an archery Henry mtns tag to be sneaking in on a giant buck he has been watching and filming all season when all of a sudden a rifle roars from across the canyon from which he just came from and the buck he is after drops to the Gov tag holder?

To actaully answer your question, I guess technically it is not fair for any weapon type to follow another. But one must go first and traditionally that has been the weapon type with the least successful harvest. Then the next and so on. I guess I could answer it with your argument against bowhunting. If this hunter really wanted first crack at that bull, he should of applied for the archery?? (Sorry, I could not resist.)

I think to say the Bowhunters kill the cream of the crop traditionally each year is a huge stretch. But each year a giant or 2 get whacked by them, that is for sure. No where close to as many that get shot by rifles though.

I actually would need to think over your proposal of rotating seasons and tag allocations every 3 years. Seems like it could work. Only probelm I see is this state is very unwilling to change anything for any reason. Not sure they would want the hassle of enforcing a rotational type hunt?? I dont know. No reason why it could not be proposed and discussed at the RAC if you wanted to present it. I think most rifle hunters would want the season they already have??
 
its not a rifle hunt jsut so everyone knows... its an any legal weapon hunt. so if you all complain about it, put in for the any legal weapon hunt, eventually you will draw it and hunt it with your bow. case closed inspector gadget....
 
Don:

Since you are reading this post...Any chance of getting the expo draw odds like promised? At the SFW meeting you said you needed a couple of months. That couple of months has come and gone and some of us are still waiting?


Sorry, I know this is off subject but Don did not answer the last time it was brought up so I thought I would ask again.
 
>its not a rifle hunt jsut
>so everyone knows... its an
>any legal weapon hunt. so
>if you all complain about
>it, put in for the
>any legal weapon hunt, eventually
>you will draw it and
>hunt it with your bow.
>case closed inspector gadget....

EXACTLY!!

+100
 
>its not a rifle hunt jsut
>so everyone knows... its an
>any legal weapon hunt. so
>if you all complain about
>it, put in for the
>any legal weapon hunt, eventually
>you will draw it and
>hunt it with your bow.
>case closed inspector gadget....


yup+1 oh wait then the guys complaining dont get there better draw odds to
 
Hey Don, unless you're coming on here to answer questions you promised you would answer, then stay away and shut your Piehole. And another thing Donny, when someone ask you a question, just answer the question straight up and not try to answer the question with a question. I too was at that goat and pony show I mean "meeting". What a Jackass.
 
This again?
We are talking about the Utah LE Elk hunts that begin mid September. They are called "ANY weapon" If you want the "prime time" with your bow, apply for the ANY weapon hunts.

I myself have drawn for a ANY weapon tag. I have been on many others. I dont want to hear that gun shots would ruin a bowhunters chance. You see a few hunters and hear even less gun fire. In my experience I didnt even hear another shot. We have had the whole mountain practically to ourselves.

My friend didnt want to wait the years it takes to draw an ANY weapon tag. So he applied for LE Archery and drew the tag
We went on his hunt on the Central Manti 2 weeks ago. We couldnt have had any more bugling bulls. It was hard to keep up with them. It was so good that my friend was passing up chances on bulls waiting for the right one.
I would have to call his Archery hunt a PRIME TIME hunt. I dont know how it could have been any better for him.
I guess a bull could have jumped onto his arrow............

Awesome hunt, but my Buddy ate tag soup.
Trophy NO
Meat NO
Sweet Memories YES
Great Hunt! YES

The bottom line is how soon do you want to burn up your bonus points to hunt ?
 
We will have to look at the harvest data after this year.

One of the top units in the state is Beaver. With this years season, out of 19 permits, My self and some locals know of only one bull killed out of the 19 permits. That bull was killed over water. Elk were not very vocal. It was hot as usual. The rifle hunt has not been easy this year for 350 plus bulls.

I would bet the Cache units had no greater than 10% success rate in the archery hunt for LE elk. It has very poor success rates over the years.

I like to hunt all weapons.

IMO elk management would be better to have archery season first, muzzle next, and rifle starting in early Oct. All hunts would get some rut action. More permits could be offered, success on big bulls (350+) would be reduced in early rifle hunts. NM,AZ, and NV has very few if any rifle rut hunts. Let Utah have the tail end of the rut.

I would be surprized if many changes would occur. Elk antlers are broken more in Oct. This management would be best for the elk herds. It works for other states. Elk hunting for a resident should not be 1-2 times in ones life for trophy bulls.
 
Huntinguy, Did you seek some help here before your hunt? I drew that NV tag in 2006 and passed on numerous 320-330 bulls daily, a 380"+ and near 400" bull in range. Ended up taking a 350 7/8" on the 9th day. Did you hunt the entire season? If not, why not? Best tag in the US I think. A shame you could not connect.
 
Could someone ask Bryan Lauterner to post this under its own heading, Wolf Delisting Entire US

The US Congress, Dems. Edwards and Matheson of TX and UT, and Repubs. Rheberg and Chafetz MT and UT respectively, have introduced HR 6028, which simply says,

"The Gray Wolf (Canis Lupis) shall not be treated as an endangered species or threatened species for the purposes of this Act.

It would give EVERY state fish and Game Agency the right to manage wolves as each state sees fit.

This bill is supported 100 % by RMEF, MDF, SFW, SCI, NRA and the Congressional Sportsmen's Caucus. Hunting heavyweights, Richard CHildress of NASCAR, Jeff Foxworthy and Karl Malone have thrown their star power into the fight.

please call you senators and congressman and ask them to support his bil.. Save our hunting, delist wolves, the time is now

Don Peay
 
Don, how about an itemized list of where the money you make off selling public tags is being spent, any chance of seeing that too?

No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
 
Look at what Don is saying. Look at what is going on in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho with the wolf and the big game. Weather you like Don or not what he is saying is something that everyone should be interested in getting done. Controlling of the wolves. A very big feature for the future of hunting. It is not just SFW but all the other organizations that are teamed to stop the wolves. By the way if you go to the SFW page you can follow the instructions and see last years tax return.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-10 AT 09:56PM (MST)[p]The Expo issue is relevant to the wolf issue. Don asked for the expo tags and in return he said he would do many things. I don't think he has delivered on most of the things he said he would in egards to the the expo tags... Now Don is asking for support (financial) to help with the wolf issue. Again he is saying he is going to fight for us but his track record on him doing what he says he is going to do, in my mind, is more than a little weak.

Also, unless I am reading them wrong, the tax records available following the SFW web site shows SFW has a balance of about $65,000. That is only a portion of the tax records for SFW and SFH. That is not even close to what was promised and is more than a few months late.
 
Are you sure the likes of Don and the DWR aren't willing to have a "healthy" wolf population in Utah someday in the future?

You don't think someday the DWR will be trying to educate you on the true relationship between wolfs and prey?

And you think when they do Don will have anything to say about it or will he stay silent on the matter just as he is on Utah's cougar herd of 3000.

Do you think Don would mind a total LE big game system?

Do you think Don gets more support and donations when hunting prospects brighten or when we think our hunting is in jeopardy?

If there were more than 50 200" bucks in Utah do you think CMWU's could get 10,000 for a hunt? Or would a rich guy donate $100,000s to dons cause?

No Utah's is right on track! We have a wonderful elk hunt that is easy as pie. And it only takes 15yrs to draw a tag. No wonder my son has such a passion for hunting even he can see his prospects are great. He might get 3 quality elk hunts in his lifetime. And he can see a 4pt buck at the golf coarse to keep him enthused about what he wont see when he deer hunts on the mtn.
 
All I see Don saying here is to write your Congressman in support of the bill hoping that it will pass. Don't do it just because Don Peay has ask everyone to do it. Do it for the future of hunting. The wolves are a real threat. I did not see any where in his post where he was asking for money, only a call to your representitives in congress.
 
Deersman says.........
"No Utah's is right on track! We have a wonderful elk hunt that is easy as pie. And it only takes 15yrs to draw a tag. No wonder my son has such a passion for hunting even he can see his prospects are great. He might get 3 quality elk hunts in his lifetime. And he can see a 4pt buck at the golf coarse to keep him enthused about what he wont see when he deer hunts on the mtn."

You are right about Utah. It has a wonderful elk hunt. Then your way off track.

1)Elk hunt thats easy as pie? Elk hunting isnt easy.
2)15 years to draw? Not true. It could be less with a little luck. At least there is still a chance for the guys with less than MAX points. (not the case in other states)
3)your kid might get 3 "quality" elk hunts in his life? REALLY??
Every hunting trip with your kid should be qualilty. Just because you arent on a LE area doesnt mean its not quality. There are big bulls on every single General season unit in Utah.
We are one of the states that have plenty of over the counter tags. We are lucky that we can hunt every year.
FYI... there are states that residents have to draw for every elk tag. Sounds like they might get to hunt elk every 10+ years or so in thier own state. To me, that sucks.
Dont just stick to Utah if you need more Elk hunting. Colorado,and Idaho have over the counter tags for around $500.
I have done both. Sometimes you get this fuzzy good feeling that you will be in some great fantasy hunting land when you go to another state. It always turns out to be Elk hunting. A great time! But never that much better.
4) 4 point deer on a golf course is the only deer you and your kid are seeing to keep his hopes up?
I have no idea where you are hunting,, but I would change.
I saw 15 bucks last weekend and 5 of them were trophy bucks 24" +. All of them were on a General season open public land.

I think I would be super depressed if I was you too.
I realize your statement has alot of sarcasm in it, but there must be a little truth in there too
 
I have spent a lifetime on Monroe. Sorry I'm a landowner there and I'm not going to sell and buy in the latest hot spot. Monroe has all the potential I need. It took me 15yrs and 4 other members in my family 16 to get there tag. Still have a few waiting and they are in the 10 to 12 yr range. And I do think hunting elk on Monroe in the middle of the rut with a rifle is easy. We have all the trophies you need to prove we are proficient hunters. And it true I did not lay eyes on a 4pt while hunting this yr.

Have you ever noticed the relatively large number of guys with a hard on for Monroe compared to other units in Utah? It's because it is quite possibly the most mismanaged unit in the state. And many folk that have been there for generations want to know why and what for. The deer herd there truly does suck.
 
I had the opportunity to experience the early rifle SW Desert elk hunt this year. It was my first Utah elk hunt experience of any kind. My parents are from Southern Utah but I was born and raised in Arizona. I am in my mid 30's and while most of my hunting experiences have been in Arizona I have hunted many other Western states. In fact I grew up following my dad in to the field on the annual "deer hunt" in Southern Utah and took my first deer there as soon as I was of age there.

As I do not live in Utah and am not privy to the general thoughts and feelings of the Utah public I was wondering if some could answer the following question: Why does Utah have the state divided up in to the regions is does currently and why have they not considered dividing the state in to smaller regions (or units as called in AZ) so they can manage the various species herds on a smaller, micro level?

Is this a DWR, management decision or philosophy based on sound scientific evidence or does it reflect the social beliefs or philosophies of the Utah majority?
 

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